Support NeoGAF

[saintjules]

I don't need someone to tell me what I should watch or not. I can judge by myself.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

As someone who's been watching this lads videos for a while now, I agree with him.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Lol at all the people here quick to side with the Asperger's aggrieved hairstyle dude over DF.

Oof!

GAF typically hates Alex with a passion with no way to actually phrase something coherent about why outside that's he's guey

But I don't give a shit

Giving Threat Interactive the time of day is my biggest gripe. This grifter does not deserve a click. You don't watch DF? You're unsubscribed? Good for ya.

 

[diffusionx]

GAF typically hates Alex with a passion with no way to actually phrase something coherent about why outside that's he's guey

But I don't give a shit

Giving Threat Interactive the time of day is my biggest gripe. This grifter does not deserve a click. You don't watch DF? You're unsubscribed? Good for ya.

When was the last time Alex said anything interesting on DF?

At least John makes cool retro videos.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Is DF the one who has the clown who got upset by Stellar Blade ..

Yes, that was Alex. He's very much on the purple team and I find him quite irritating, but I still appreciate his kicking the arse of UE5 on PC, so I can tolerate his insufferable views as a trade-off.

 

[adamsapple]

As someone who's been watching this lads videos for a while now, I agree with him.

Hi Threat Interactive

 

[Black_Stride]

When was the last time Alex said anything interesting on DF?

At least John makes cool retro videos.

#stutterstruggle only trends because Alex akeeps hounding devs about......even Epic are working towards making it stupid proof.
Regardless of what opinions you might have of him personally (without knowing him personally) he is a net benefit to the PC gaming community.

Threat Interactive seems to go around telling people they are stupid and dont know what they are talking about.....as a supposedly active developer.....release your tech demo......show us the receipts.
Produce a vertical slice of anything that can back up your claims you are here to save the gaming visuals and PC gaming.
Hell if Fuck TAA subreddit has banned you, clearly your messege is missing its target audience.

So instead of just talking and grifting for 900,000 dollars to hire another developer to do the things you think you can do.

Just release the demo.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Very interesting. What was the cause of the BSP(Binary Space Partitioning) planes limit - in a tree? Or are you referring to tree node count limits inside the main root node tree?

UE2´s BSP was used to make the basic geometry of a level with the BSP acting as the occluder for meshes. But this wasnt cheap.
So when I refer to BSP I mean a simple additive or substractive cube in UE2. When a pivot of such a cube is onscreen it renders.
If I remember correctly the limit of 20 or 30 visible BSP at any time was in the Splitscreen Mutliplayer mode which basically rendered the game twice.

I'm just trying to visualize a scene and the technical issue. Was it something like a technical issue where some programmer had used a 5 bit Identifier for each tree node - which then meant for the active part of the loaded scene, partitioning to make rendering occlusion more efficient to cull geometry from rendering was at odds with improving visuals and to stay within the unique identifier 5bit key space? Or was it something completely different?

The game in question was the port of Splinter Cell 3 for PS2, which had alot of AI and other systems going that used up alot of CPU leaving little for rendering.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

How can you be so sure of that? The devs surely may want that but the ones who ultimate get to decide are the consumers who's really paying the paycheck of the devs

The consumer only decides if they want to buy the end product or not.
The consumer does not decide how a game is financed or developed.

There's no such a thing of "there is no way back" if the alternative is destroying an entire industry and get fired

The industry is growing every single year, so I dont really see how this will ever happen unless there is something big like WW3.

 

[adamsapple]

#stutterstruggle only trends because Alex akeeps hounding devs about......even Epic are working towards making it stupid proof.
Regardless of what opinions you might have of him personally (without knowing him personally) he is a net benefit to the PC gaming community.

Threat Interactive seems to go around telling people they are stupid and dont know what they are talking about.....as a supposedly active developer.....release your tech demo......show us the receipts.
Produce a vertical slice of anything that can back up your claims you are here to save the gaming visuals and PC gaming.
Hell if Fuck TAA subreddit has banned you, clearly your messege is missing its target audience.

So instead of just talking and grifting for 900,000 dollars to hire another developer to do the things you think you can do.

Just release the demo.

Some folks here like to underplay it but DF have had a genuine impact on various games and developers reach out to them directly.

One example is how Sony Santa Monica let them preview a demo build of God of War 2018 on the PS4 Pro before release and John pointed out some issues (tearing on the Pro Quality mode) to the developers that they then fixed in time for the game to release.

And for everyone who whines about Alex being a rampant PC fanboy, he frequently puts out articles like this calling the state of PC gaming a "Disaster". Shit like this probably grates PC developers as well and this brings more eyes to it.

Last year was a disaster for PC games - here's how things need to change

Digital Foundry presents its recommendation to PC game developers in delivering better ports after a dire 2022.

www.eurogamer.net

 

[hooijdonk17]

DF is and always has been a shameless nVidia mouthpiece. Never was subbed, always hated their content.

 

[FoxMcChief]

 

[FoxMcChief]

Hi Threat Interactive

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Cyberpunk 2077, RDR2, Days Gone, TLoU2... heck, i could point out select few modern games that run way better than others. Why the fuck Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 can make 1080p high 60 fps on a rtx 3060 and Monster Hunter Wilds can barely hold 30 on similar settings? The latter certainly isn't more complex, nor does it look better.

All those mentioned are modern games tech wise.
As for KCD2 vs MHW you say one isnt more complex than the other - but you do not know that, thats just speculation.
MHW might do realtime wind simulations or other complex physical calculations for more realism - without knowing the code it will be impossible to say why one runs better than the other!
Looks and complexity onscreen can be decieving!

 

[Topher]

Honestly, the only aspect of DF that I really find valuable anymore is highlighting games that have been poorly optimized. The comparison videos are not really that interesting. I don't need DF to tell me that DLSS is better than FSR. Certainly don't need DF to tell me a 4070 is more powerful than a PS5. I'm still subbed but I just don't watch as much any more.

 

[Hudo]

I do think DF are good when it comes to making videos where they compare FPS/performance of different versions/ports of a game. For anything else, they clearly don't know what they're talking about or only have half-knowledge at best.

 

[Team Andromeda]

DF have gown downhill so much it's quite sad

 

[N30RYU]

Dares to talk about DF?

 

[Astray]

Hi Threat Interactive

Lmfao if it's actually him then this thread needs the live tag.

He supposedly has history of this too.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

Sorry not him, I've been on here for a very long time but lost access to original account and mods were no help whatsoever.

https://www.neogaf.com/members/breakfast-at-noon.78567/

Please mods I want my account back.

 

[EviLore]

Sorry not him, I've been on here for a very long time but lost access to original account and mods were no help whatsoever.

https://www.neogaf.com/members/breakfast-at-noon.78567/

Please mods I want my account back.

Which mods...?

Anyway, I've merged your accounts and given you your original username back.

 

[Guilty_AI]

All those mentioned are modern games tech wise.

Yes, and they run better than other "modern games". Why? Wasn't that impossible according to you?

As for KCD2 vs MHW you say one isnt more complex than the other - but you do not know that, thats just speculation.
MHW might do realtime wind simulations or other complex physical calculations for more realism - without knowing the code it will be impossible to say why one runs better than the other!
Looks and complexity onscreen can be decieving!

You can read based on results alone! KCD2 has npc schedules, dynamic time of the day, dense enviroments and so on. What MHW has in practice? If it's making some esoteric calculations behind the scene, why is it doing so? Is it really necessary? Why Rise and World ran better if mechanics are mostly the same? This just opens up a case for a horribly optimized engine that needs fixing.

 

[RodriGames40]

Yes, and they run better than other "modern games". Why? Wasn't that impossible according to you?


You can read based on results alone! KCD2 has npc schedules, dynamic time of the day, dense enviroments and so on. What MHW has in practice? If it's making some esoteric calculations behind the scene, why is it doing so? Is it really necessary? Why Rise and World ran better if mechanics are mostly the same? This just opens up a case for a horribly optimized engine that needs fixing.

He has a point though, even for the most unoptimized trash... We don't really know what's going that could be hogging the hardware so much. MH Wilds having no raytracing at all (other than some reflections) and yet running like this is comically confusing.

 

[Guilty_AI]

He has a point though, even for the most unoptimized trash... We don't really know what's going that could be hogging the hardware so much. MH Wilds having no raytracing at all (other than some reflections) and yet running like this is comically confusing.

It's obvious something is hogging up resources. The point is that based on what the game's mechanics are, other games with similar mechanics and previous iterations of the series; that something is either unnecessary or pure coding nightmare. And that that something needs fixing ASAP.

 

[Ribi]

Df fell off when they started making console content. Keep it to pc

 

[RodriGames40]

It's obvious something is hogging up resources. The point is that based on what the game's mechanics are, other games with similar mechanics and previous iterations of the series; that something is either unnecessary or pure coding nightmare. And that that something needs fixing ASAP.

I'd bet for the later, it's not possible that a game without raytracing or half the asset quality literally runs in equal ground to Cyberpunk RT Ultra. It's absolute bullshit.

 

[Landr300]

The consumer does not decide how a game is financed or developed.

Yes, they do by not buying the type of games they don't want, like unoptimized games

The industry is growing every single year, so I dont really see how this will ever happen unless there is something big like WW3.

If you count everything like mobile, gacha and china maybe, but the aaa market are in a dire state right now

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'd bet for the later, it's not possible that a game without raytracing or half the asset quality literally runs in equal ground to Cyberpunk RT Ultra. It's absolute bullshit.

Based on previous capcom games using the RE engine, and their comments on Dragons dogma 2, my guess is that the engine has both horrible asset streaming and actor management.

 

[Three]

Hi Threat Interactive

What's going on here?

I guess he pulled your own antics of trying to merge your old account to update the date? What are you accusing him of exactly? I don't get it.

 

[GudOlRub]

People here seethe with Alex because he's very political on his twitter and has opinions that many don't agree with, but professionally his work is good and if devs really listened to his (mostly) simple recommendations, pc gaming would be in a much better place than it is now.
This Threat Interactive moron is just a grifter who can spew a lot of technical jargon but never produced anything tangible to actually back it up.
This thread is an absolute shitshow.

 

[adamsapple]

What's going on here?

 

[evanft]

LMAO this grifter is still around?

 

[FireFly]

DF is and always has been a shameless nVidia mouthpiece. Never was subbed, always hated their content.

Yes, that's why they are full of praise for the new AMD cards.

 

[PaintTinJr]

UE2´s BSP was used to make the basic geometry of a level with the BSP acting as the occluder for meshes. But this wasnt cheap.
So when I refer to BSP I mean a simple additive or substractive cube in UE2. When a pivot of such a cube is onscreen it renders.
If I remember correctly the limit of 20 or 30 visible BSP at any time was in the Splitscreen Mutliplayer mode which basically rendered the game twice.


The game in question was the port of Splinter Cell 3 for PS2, which had alot of AI and other systems going that used up alot of CPU leaving little for rendering.

Got it, I hadn't realised that the brushes in BSP editors like quakes' q(X)radiant and UnrealEd called the brushes BSPs as a shorthand.

I used radiant a little to make a few maps for Quake2 and 3 back in the day. In one of my failed maps of a real location, I tried building toilets in a multi-floor stairwell build and had managed to exceed the geometry limits in the toilet area with brushes used just for two curved urinals and one curved sink/taps - using about 100 kit-bashed BSP brushes - so if you were limited to 30 visible brushes at anyone time, I can see why that would have been really difficult optimisation for MP, that's nothing at all to work with.

 

[yogaflame]

For me the bad influence that DF did is conditioning the minds of gamers that Ray tracing and frame rate matters so much. Not giving much attention and appreciation to image quality, physics and artistic and level design.

 

[mansoor1980]

For me the bad influence that DF did is conditioning the minds of gamers that Ray tracing and frame rate matters so much. Not giving much attention to image quality, physics and artistic and level design.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Got it, I hadn't realised that the brushes in BSP editors like quakes' q(X)radiant and UnrealEd called the brushes BSPs as a shorthand.

I used radiant a little to make a few maps for Quake2 and 3 back in the day. In one of my failed maps of a real location, I tried building toilets in a multi-floor stairwell build and had managed to exceed the geometry limits in the toilet area with brushes used just for two curved urinals and one curved sink/taps - using about 100 kit-bashed BSP brushes - so if you were limited to 30 visible brushes at anyone time, I can see why that would have been really difficult optimisation for MP, that's nothing at all to work with.

Yep it is crazy low and was a giant pain in the ass to get it done. That was some real optimization, not that BS TI is spreading.

 

[Chiggs]

I know that some GAFers love to hate DF, but that video does not do shit to make me do the same.

Well, if you're one of the DF Faithful, meaning that you accept their opinions and perspectives wholesale, knowing full well that not one of them has a shred of actual game development experience, then there's really not much anyone could say to you, regardless of how compelling it was.

 

[DirtInUrEye]

Df fell off when they started making console content. Keep it to pc

God no, I love seeing my PC advantages in side-by-sides.

 

[diffusionx]

Df fell off when they started making console content. Keep it to pc

DF's first gig was comparing PS3/360 ports lmao.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Yes, and they run better than other "modern games". Why? Wasn't that impossible according to you?

I never said it was impossible, I said that modern games look better!
But regardless, look how well CP2077 ran on PS4 when it released!

You can read based on results alone! KCD2 has npc schedules, dynamic time of the day, dense enviroments and so on. What MHW has in practice? If it's making some esoteric calculations behind the scene, why is it doing so? Is it really necessary? Why Rise and World ran better if mechanics are mostly the same? This just opens up a case for a horribly optimized engine that needs fixing.

I wouldnt know why its doing what its doing, only the devs know.
But if you know better, why not consider doing a consulting job for those companys? They pay ALOT for that! (Ive done it before)

 

[Wolzard]

Some folks here like to underplay it but DF have had a genuine impact on various games and developers reach out to them directly.

One example is how Sony Santa Monica let them preview a demo build of God of War 2018 on the PS4 Pro before release and John pointed out some issues (tearing on the Pro Quality mode) to the developers that they then fixed in time for the game to release.

And for everyone who whines about Alex being a rampant PC fanboy, he frequently puts out articles like this calling the state of PC gaming a "Disaster". Shit like this probably grates PC developers as well and this brings more eyes to it.

Last year was a disaster for PC games - here's how things need to change

Digital Foundry presents its recommendation to PC game developers in delivering better ports after a dire 2022.

www.eurogamer.net

Do you really think the developers didn't know about the problems in God of War or the stutter problems in PC games?

The point is that because Digital Foundry's channel is large, problems cause bad publicity.

In fact, in my opinion, because the channel has grown, they are now taking it easy on some developers, perhaps so as not to lose access to some perks (such as interviews, exclusive information or even keys). See, until now Alex has not made a video about Spider Man 2 on PC.

Not too long ago, I remember some developers choosing certain publications to give positive reviews of a particular game. This still probably happens, but less explicitly.

 

[funking giblet]

Again, the guy knows fuck all, just grifts his way and waffles in semi technical terms he gleamed from around the net. He has been caught out multiple times not understanding what he is talking about (as the reddit post above shows). Not a coder in any reasonable, professional way (still an undergrad I think?). Lies and says he has a company. It's just a dude.

 

[elbourreau]

OK, DF are morons and this guy is full of shit.

Thanks Gaff.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I never said it was impossible, I said that modern games look better!
But regardless, look how well CP2077 ran on PS4 when it released!

Look how great it looks and plays on a rtx 3060, unlike MH Wilds

But if you know better, why not consider doing a consulting job for those companys? They pay ALOT for that! (Ive done it before)

You have no idea how much i'd love to do just that. Heck, i'd do it for free. But we both know that won't be happening.

 

[Spiral1407]

It is more painless now, but there is just no reason to go backwards to old tech.

I'd say there is a reason to return currently, especially since current hardware can't utilize the new tech without hallucinating frames and using stone age resolutions. It would be a different story in a decade or so though.

Well would you say games like Lords of the Fallen were terrible? I wouldnt.
I cant think of a single game in the last 5-10 years that looks better than modern games - but performance wise I agree.
As for complexity, modern games are way more complex in the amount of details they simulate.
That said, it is a classic case of diminishing returns, as the number of people that will realize that horse testicles in RDR2 shrink when its cold is tiny!

Batman Arkham Knight and Halo 5 come to mind. Decade old games that look and run better than their modern sequels.

 

[RodriGames40]

I'd say there is a reason to return currently, especially since current hardware can't utilize the new tech without hallucinating frames and using stone age resolutions. It would be a different story in a decade or so though.

Batman Arkham Knight and Halo 5 come to mind. Decade old games that look and run better than their modern sequels.

Unfortunately, that's why upscaling and such are a thing in the first place. Hardware improvements have hit a wall, there isn't much left to squeeze from node processes anymore. It's AI in its many forms or no progress at all.

 

[ScHlAuChi]

Look how great it looks and plays on a rtx 3060, unlike MH Wilds

Well that has been a problem for PC gaming since forever - and the solution is to upgrade
Wing Commander running too slow on your 386? Buy a 486!

You have no idea how much i'd love to do just that. Heck, i'd do it for free. But we both know that won't be happening.

Sure, but no dev will ever listen to you if you got no proveable skills.
That´s the same reason why no dev takes TI serious.

 

[Black_Stride]

Df fell off when they started making console content. Keep it to pc

Digital Foundry started as a Xbox 360 vs Playstation 3 outlet, that was their bread and butter.
PC centric videos are relatively new, even the Xbox One vs Playstation 4 faceoffs were super popular.

I take it you are new to Digital Foundry or dont know who Digital Foundry are?

 

[Negotiator]

DF has turned console gamers into pixel peeping graphics whores, more so than the fabled PCMR.

There, I said it!