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[Krathoon]

I assume they are going to bring in the Fantastic Four at some point. They got Doom.

 

[FunkMiller]

I personally suspect another character will develop something designed to temporarily revert Ross back to human form. Sam will mainly just be distracting Red Hulk, like Batman did to Doomsday in BvS, until that character can arrive.

Then once Ross figures out how to control the Red Hulk form, he and Sam and the others will reluctantly team up to deal with The Leader.

Not sure making comparisons to one of the absolute worst comic book movies ever made is quite the best defence of what this movie may do narratively. If you’re main character needs other people to save him, you’ve screwed up somewhere.

Red Hulk is a mistake for this film. They could have done another Cold War style Winter Soldier movie, but… you know… Disney.

 

[IDKFA]

I assume they are going to bring in the Fantastic Four at some point. They got Doom.

The Fantastic Four: First Steps, is being released in July 2025.

The Fantastic Four: First Steps - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Krathoon]

Ah. They are gonna make Silver Surfer a woman. I guess that is ok. No idea why they need to do that.

They are flipping it around and making Shalla-Bal the Surfer.

 

[jason10mm]

They kind of bunged it up with Endgame. You lost a lot of the fundamental Marvel characters. Now, you have the next gen stuff and it is not as good.

Then, the guy that played Black Panther died.

Eh, to be honest, Chadwick Boseman didn't really have great leading man potential either. Without RDJ or Evans to spearhead the next phase Marvel really just had Hemsworth (wasted on silly Thor flicks) or Pratt to carry the torch. None of the other actors in their ensemble cast had real "in charge" capability IMHO. I think Sebastian Stan was the most likely to be "the guy" to lead the next wave but I guess not.

Just go back and watch those early MCU films (I do a lot with my kid) and appreciate how RDJ and Evans anchored those flicks. That whole 20+ film run till Endgame was centered on those 2.

 

[Krathoon]

Eh, to be honest, Chadwick Boseman didn't really have great leading man potential either. Without RDJ or Evans to spearhead the next phase Marvel really just had Hemsworth (wasted on silly Thor flicks) or Pratt to carry the torch. None of the other actors in their ensemble cast had real "in charge" capability IMHO. I think Sebastian Stan was the most likely to be "the guy" to lead the next wave but I guess not.

Just go back and watch those early MCU films (I do a lot with my kid) and appreciate how RDJ and Evans anchored those flicks. That whole 20+ film run till Endgame was centered on those 2.

In the comics, it was also always about Iron Man and Captain America. Especially, with Civil War.

 

[Doom85]

Not sure making comparisons to one of the absolute worst comic book movies ever made is quite the best defence of what this movie may do narratively. If you’re main character needs other people to save him, you’ve screwed up somewhere.

X-men: Days of Future Past is considered easily one of the best X-men films, and Wolverine does not fare well at all in the final fight against Magneto. And don’t give me, “but that’s an ensemble film”, we all know the FOX X-men films made Logan the lead in all of the ones he played a major role in.

Also, Thor: Ragnarok? Thor does not defeat Hela as he realizes none of them can do so, so he has to let Loki summon Surtur to defeat her.

The lead character not being able to defeat the main villain is nothing new for a superhero movie. Really, it’s limiting narrative possibilities to act like it’s a thing that shouldn’t be done.

And come on, you know people’s dislike of BvS has nothing to do with what Batman was doing in the Doomsday fight…..well, except for people who aren’t fans of Batman but rather the Batgod they’ve built up in their head.

 

[SidViscous]

They kind of bunged it up with Endgame. You lost a lot of the fundamental Marvel characters. Now, you have the next gen stuff and it is not as good.

Then, the guy that played Black Panther died.

Thankfully they got that really good up and coming actor as their new big bad.

Also I've just woken up from a 3 year coma, did I miss anything good?

 

[March Climber]

I have to agree with Doom85 in the latest part of this conversation. One of the big lessons learned from Civil War through Infinity War was the fact that the Avengers were worse-off when separated. They needed each other's help.

As a matter of fact I'm trying to think about which movie a Marvel hero fully solo'd a situation, and I can only think of a few. Iron Man 1, Spiderman HC, Spiderman FFH, Shang-Chi, and Captain Marvel.

 

[Krathoon]

I found it funny that the whole Kang thing kind of fizzled out.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Ignoring whenever Sam can tank a hulk.

What about him throwing the shield with inhuman strength? Where he throws the shield at missiles that are flying at mach2+ speeds while he's flying at mach2 was dumb as hell. Steve Rodgers never did any of this outrageous shit.

Before was just a low level jobber with wings. But seems his wings were upgraded, so there's some reason for his increases abilities.

 

[Badlucktroll]

 

[FunkMiller]

X-men: Days of Future Past is considered easily one of the best X-men films, and Wolverine does not fare well at all in the final fight against Magneto. And don’t give me, “but that’s an ensemble film”, we all know the FOX X-men films made Logan the lead in all of the ones he played a major role in.

Also, Thor: Ragnarok? Thor does not defeat Hela as he realizes none of them can do so, so he has to let Loki summon Surtur to defeat her.

The lead character not being able to defeat the main villain is nothing new for a superhero movie. Really, it’s limiting narrative possibilities to act like it’s a thing that shouldn’t be done.

And come on, you know people’s dislike of BvS has nothing to do with what Batman was doing in the Doomsday fight…..well, except for people who aren’t fans of Batman but rather the Batgod they’ve built up in their head.

I think the issue people have in this specific case is that within the fiction of the MCU, Sam has always been - up to this point - portrayed as an ordinary human being, trying his best to live alongside all of these demigods. That's what was interesting about his character. The whole 'on your left' thing is based around this. His literal introduction is based around his flaws and weakness when compared Cap's superhuman strength. It's why it's so cathartic when he says 'on your left' in Endgame. It's the ordinary human coming to save the superhero.

But now we have Sam engaged in exactly the kinds of feats of strength and power that those demigods were engaged in, and it rings extremely hollow and wrong. They've ruined whatever interest the character has by simply ignoring his deficiencies. You're trying to defend the change by comparing to other characters in other movies, but are ignoring what has already been established for this specific character.

In Disney's overwhelming desire to keep squeezing as much money as they can, they've sacrificed an interesting character on the altar of big, stupid superhero action.

 

[Hrk69]

#notmycap

 

[jason10mm]

I think the issue people have in this specific case is that within the fiction of the MCU, Sam has always been - up to this point - portrayed as an ordinary human being, trying his best to live alongside all of these demigods. That's what was interesting about his character. The whole 'on your left' thing is based around this. His literal introduction is based around his flaws and weakness when compared Cap's superhuman strength. It's why it's so cathartic when he says 'on your left' in Endgame. It's the ordinary human coming to save the superhero.

But now we have Sam engaged in exactly the kinds of feats of strength and power that those demigods were engaged in, and it rings extremely hollow and wrong. They've ruined whatever interest the character has by simply ignoring his deficiencies. You're trying to defend the change by comparing to other characters in other movies, but are ignoring what has already been established for this specific character.

In Disney's overwhelming desire to keep squeezing as much money as they can, they've sacrificed an interesting character on the altar of big, stupid superhero action.

I agree 100%. There definitely is a great story about Sam trying to live up to the ideal of Cap and his mortal body not being up to the task (which may have been explored in Falcon and Winter Soldier but I dont know) but this film just moves him straight to the superhero tier of god-like heroes that are boring. Ironman was most boring when he could snap his fingers and a magic suit of armor showed up from space. The humans are our entry point into this world and they need to be vulnerable for us to relate. Black Widow fell prey to this. Hawkeye skirted it. Falcon having to learn how to work his tools to exploit his title would be cool. I'm not sure this film is doing that though. Regular humans facing off against Hulks or cosmic threats is just not where I want them to go.

 

[March Climber]

Ignoring whenever Sam can tank a hulk.

What about him throwing the shield with inhuman strength? Where he throws the shield at missiles that are flying at mach2+ speeds while he's flying at mach2 was dumb as hell. Steve Rodgers never did any of this outrageous shit.

The only timeline I can piece together is this:

1) Thanos Breaks Cap's original shield:



2) Wakanda helps to rebuild the shield, just like Bucky's arm.

3) Because they are experts on everything Vibranium, this time they build it to be just as durable but way lighter, like many of their other creations that have Vibranium in their society.

4) John Walker(eventually U.S. Agent), a normal human at the time of wielding it in this first battle, is able to wield and use the shield very effectively in combat:



5) Stuff happens, John loses the shield, Falcon gains shield and trains with it:



6) Falcon gains a new Wakandan tech suit and starts using the shield more effectively.



It's strength capabilities are unknown, but Falcon was previously able to use his wings to boost shield attacks pre-suit, and now he is doing it with much more ease than usual.

Even from me saying all of this, he should still fight with strategy vs Red Hulk instead of plain brawn and I'm hoping this is the case.

 

[j0hnnix]

----------------------
Would a regular guy holding Captain America's shield be able to stop The Hulk's punch?

ChatGPT said:​

No, a regular person holding Captain America's shield would not be able to stop the Hulk's punch. Here’s why:

1. Strength and Durability Mismatch: While Captain America's shield is made of vibranium, a nearly indestructible material, the shield itself is just an object. A regular person lacks the superhuman strength, endurance, and agility needed to brace or redirect the incredible force behind the Hulk's punch.
2. Physics of Impact: The vibranium in the shield can absorb and dissipate energy, which is why it can withstand immense forces. However, the person holding the shield would still experience the full brunt of the Hulk's punch. The force would transfer through the shield to their body, likely resulting in catastrophic injuries or sending them flying with lethal velocity.
3. Hulk's Strength: The Hulk operates on a scale of strength far beyond normal human capacity. His punches generate immense kinetic energy that even enhanced beings struggle to handle. A regular person would lack the mass, strength, and leverage to counteract this.

In conclusion, while the shield might remain intact, the person holding it would not survive or remain standing after the Hulk's punch. Captain America himself can manage it due to his super-soldier abilities, but a regular person would be outmatched.

You said:​

Why would the force transfer through if the shield is absorbing the kinetic energy?

ChatGPT said:​

That's a great question! While vibranium absorbs and dissipates kinetic energy, there are still physical limitations to how that energy interacts with the person holding the shield. Here's a detailed explanation:

1. Vibranium's Energy Absorption​

Vibranium's unique property is to absorb and redistribute kinetic energy, which is why Captain America's shield doesn’t shatter or break when subjected to massive forces. However, this does not mean it negates all energy—it absorbs a portion, redistributes it within its structure, and releases it over time. Some energy will inevitably be transmitted to the person holding the shield, especially if the force greatly exceeds the shield's absorption capacity.

---

2. The Human Factor​

Even if the shield absorbs most of the energy, the person holding it is still subject to Newton's Third Law of Motion: for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the Hulk punches the shield:

• Reaction Force: The Hulk's force pushes against the shield, and the shield (with the holder) pushes back. A regular person lacks the mass, strength, and anchoring to withstand the reaction force.
• Anchoring and Leverage: Vibranium doesn’t nullify the momentum of the punch—it simply prevents structural damage to the shield. The regular person behind it would still be knocked back (or obliterated) because their body acts as the next link in the chain of energy transfer.

---

3. Impact Distribution and Shield Dynamics​

The shield might prevent localized damage (like being pierced or crushed directly at the point of impact), but it doesn’t eliminate the overall momentum transfer:

• Momentum Transfer: Even with energy absorption, the shield and its holder as a system are subjected to the force of the punch. Unless the person is superhuman or firmly anchored, the punch would send them flying at high velocity.
• Body Weaknesses: A regular human's muscles, bones, and internal organs aren’t equipped to handle the shockwaves and inertia caused by such massive forces, even if distributed.

---

4. Practical Examples​

Think of it like this:

• If a regular person held a riot shield against a speeding truck, the shield might not break, but the person holding it would be thrown violently.
• Vibranium improves this scenario but doesn’t eliminate the laws of physics. Some energy still gets transferred as motion to the holder.

---

Conclusion​

The shield would protect against the direct punch by absorbing and redistributing much of the energy, but the person holding it would still face the consequences of momentum and the reaction force. Without superhuman strength or anchoring, a regular person would be sent flying—or worse—despite the shield's capabilities.
----------------------

ChatGPT knows Marvel better than Disney/Marvel.

Can we stop with the Falcon project and start moving towards Bucky as Capt. They have to find a way to murder Steve Rogers but hell I'll be fine with murdering Falcon.

 

[Doom85]

I think the issue people have in this specific case is that within the fiction of the MCU, Sam has always been - up to this point - portrayed as an ordinary human being, trying his best to live alongside all of these demigods. That's what was interesting about his character. The whole 'on your left' thing is based around this. His literal introduction is based around his flaws and weakness when compared Cap's superhuman strength. It's why it's so cathartic when he says 'on your left' in Endgame. It's the ordinary human coming to save the superhero.

But now we have Sam engaged in exactly the kinds of feats of strength and power that those demigods were engaged in, and it rings extremely hollow and wrong. They've ruined whatever interest the character has by simply ignoring his deficiencies. You're trying to defend the change by comparing to other characters in other movies, but are ignoring what has already been established for this specific character.

In Disney's overwhelming desire to keep squeezing as much money as they can, they've sacrificed an interesting character on the altar of big, stupid superhero action.

But you didn’t address my counter point at all. I explained how the Cap and Red Hulk encounter could go down, you used BvS as a counter example, I explained why that’s not a good counter and why the hero not being able to defeat a certain threat isn’t an issue as other superhero films have done just that, and then suddenly you’re back to going, “well, I’m going to assume Sam will be holding his own against Red Hulk!” And I’ve already pointed out that there is zero footage of that so it is ridiculous for people to be jumping to conclusions like this.

Also, Steve was not a demigod, or at least he shouldn’t be. Yes, as I said, he held on to a moving helicopter in Civil War, but that breaks the canon as in Winter Soldier he fights Batroc, a normal human, on the ship and Batroc held his own for a good while which should be impossible if Steve can supposedly hang on to a 10k pound vehicle. There was, again, Thor being knocked back by Steve, completely nonsensical. In the comics, the super serum does not enhance one’s strength even to Spider-man’s strength level, so the Thor and helicopter scenes never made sense so it’s frustrating people are using THAT as to what Steve is capable of, and yet hilariously they’re saying, “hey, Sam should be mincemeat in this moment”, but if we’re being nitpicky about that and apparently accepting that Steve COULD hang on to a helicopter, how does the elevator fight in Winter Soldier make any sense to last as long as it did? Why are these supposed inconsistencies about Sam, most of which are based on assumptions due to there being zero footage of some of these claims, brought up yet no one brings up these inconsistencies with Steve?

Again, it just feels like nostalgia and favoritism. I brought up Dragonball Super before, and a Youtuber did a fantastic video debunking the supposed “inconsistencies” regarding Super’s new Saiyans, saying essentially that fans had fallen in love with the old cast and story, but had forgotten the many inconsistencies in their transformations and power levels that occurred back then, often using their own head canon to fill in the gaps. But these new characters come in who aren’t as beloved because they’re brand new and fans immediately begin nitpicking details and not giving them the same head canon courtesy they did with the old guard because they don’t have nostalgia for the new characters, and in some cases have actually over time mixed up their head canon with actual canon due to the original series having aired so long ago.

That’s what this situation with Sam as Cap feels like to me. He’s spent barely any time as Cap in viewers’ eyes (heck, some people here are flat out admitting they didn’t even watch his TV series), so they become overly nitpicky over these details in a way they weren’t with Steve as he was new and fresh to them. Now, with Steve as a comparison to draw from, they overanalyze Sam but without realizing if they applied this same overanalysis to Steve that plenty of things from his time as Cap don’t make sense either. Like, we flat out in Civil War have a line from Peter Parker questioning the physics of the shield. I don’t understand why that sort of stuff was overlooked mostly then, but with Sam suddenly we can’t do that anymore. I just want an equal evaluation of ALL characters across the board, but I feel most fans don’t do that and take it easy on characters they personally favor.

As for your other point, establishing something doesn’t mean it can’t be changed. Honestly that sounds like an issue with the viewer rather than the story, the story is trying something different with the character and the viewer is basically going, “but that’s different from what he was before!” I don’t see that as a bad thing, when we first meet Steve he already had all the traits of a hero, just his body meant he was unsuited even for basic combat, yet the serum allowed him to upgrade. Sam likewise was already heroic and suited for basic combat, and the vibranium suit and wings allowed him to upgrade. Both had proven themselves as heroes before their upgrade and that heroic spirit was rewarded with an upgrade.

And it’s not like we don’t still have relatively ordinary humans as heroes, like Yelena and Alexei are two of the most prominent figures in the Thunderbolts movie. Black Panther has Okoye and M’Baku. Hawkeye has Clint and Kate.

 

[FunkMiller]

But you didn’t address my counter point at all. I explained how the Cap and Red Hulk encounter could go down, you used BvS as a counter example, I explained why that’s not a good counter and why the hero not being able to defeat a certain threat isn’t an issue as other superhero films have done just that, and then suddenly you’re back to going, “well, I’m going to assume Sam will be holding his own against Red Hulk!” And I’ve already pointed out that there is zero footage of that so it is ridiculous for people to be jumping to conclusions like this.

Also, Steve was not a demigod, or at least he shouldn’t be. Yes, as I said, he held on to a moving helicopter in Civil War, but that breaks the canon as in Winter Soldier he fights Batroc, a normal human, on the ship and Batroc held his own for a good while which should be impossible if Steve can supposedly hang on to a 10k pound vehicle. There was, again, Thor being knocked back by Steve, completely nonsensical. In the comics, the super serum does not enhance one’s strength even to Spider-man’s strength level, so the Thor and helicopter scenes never made sense so it’s frustrating people are using THAT as to what Steve is capable of, and yet hilariously they’re saying, “hey, Sam should be mincemeat in this moment”, but if we’re being nitpicky about that and apparently accepting that Steve COULD hang on to a helicopter, how does the elevator fight in Winter Soldier make any sense to last as long as it did? Why are these supposed inconsistencies about Sam, most of which are based on assumptions due to there being zero footage of some of these claims, brought up yet no one brings up these inconsistencies with Steve?

Again, it just feels like nostalgia and favoritism. I brought up Dragonball Super before, and a Youtuber did a fantastic video debunking the supposed “inconsistencies” regarding Super’s new Saiyans, saying essentially that fans had fallen in love with the old cast and story, but had forgotten the many inconsistencies in their transformations and power levels that occurred back then, often using their own head canon to fill in the gaps. But these new characters come in who aren’t as beloved because they’re brand new and fans immediately begin nitpicking details and not giving them the same head canon courtesy they did with the old guard because they don’t have nostalgia for the new characters, and in some cases have actually over time mixed up their head canon with actual canon due to the original series having aired so long ago.

That’s what this situation with Sam as Cap feels like to me. He’s spent barely any time as Cap in viewers’ eyes (heck, some people here are flat out admitting they didn’t even watch his TV series), so they become overly nitpicky over these details in a way they weren’t with Steve as he was new and fresh to them. Now, with Steve as a comparison to draw from, they overanalyze Sam but without realizing if they applied this same overanalysis to Steve that plenty of things from his time as Cap don’t make sense either. Like, we flat out in Civil War have a line from Peter Parker questioning the physics of the shield. I don’t understand why that sort of stuff was overlooked mostly then, but with Sam suddenly we can’t do that anymore. I just want an equal evaluation of ALL characters across the board, but I feel most fans don’t do that and take it easy on characters they personally favor.

As for your other point, establishing something doesn’t mean it can’t be changed. Honestly that sounds like an issue with the viewer rather than the story, the story is trying something different with the character and the viewer is basically going, “but that’s different from what he was before!” I don’t see that as a bad thing, when we first meet Steve he already had all the traits of a hero, just his body meant he was unsuited even for basic combat, yet the serum allowed him to upgrade. Sam likewise was already heroic and suited for basic combat, and the vibranium suit and wings allowed him to upgrade. Both had proven themselves as heroes before their upgrade and that heroic spirit was rewarded with an upgrade.

And it’s not like we don’t still have relatively ordinary humans as heroes, like Yelena and Alexei are two of the most prominent figures in the Thunderbolts movie. Black Panther has Okoye and M’Baku. Hawkeye has Clint and Kate.

Jesus, dude. The wall of text is just too much sometimes. But I'll address the section I've bolded as that's the response to the actual point I was making:

'Establishing something doesn't mean it can't be changed' is a bad argument. You can change something that's been established - but only in a believable, logical manner that maintains the coherence of the character and the narrative. You can have Batman change from a young angry man bent on vengeance, to a man who realises he must be a symbol hope - but you can't have Batman suddenly taking part in superheroic activities that an ordinary human being wouldn't be able to do.

That's what you're defending with this interpretation of Sam - in so far as this trailer and all the other marketing seems to indicate. What people are taking issue with rightly is that Sam is suddenly on the level of the super soldier, despite not having the same serum Cap had. It's not logically consistent with the story they've been telling.

 

[EviLore]

Jesus, dude. The wall of text is just too much sometimes. But I'll address the section I've bolded as that's the response to the actual point I was making:

'Establishing something doesn't mean it can't be changed' is a bad argument. You can change something that's been established - but only in a believable, logical manner that maintains the coherence of the character and the narrative. You can have Batman change from a young angry man bent on vengeance, to a man who realises he must be a symbol hope - but you can't have Batman suddenly taking part in superheroic activities that an ordinary human being wouldn't be able to do.

That's what you're defending with this interpretation of Sam - in so far as this trailer and all the other marketing seems to indicate. What people are taking issue with rightly is that Sam is suddenly on the level of the super soldier, despite not having the same serum Cap had. It's not logically consistent with the story they've been telling.

Just use ChatGPT to respond to him.

1. "No footage exists to prove these assumptions"​

Doom85 argues that criticism of Sam Wilson holding his own against Red Hulk is unfounded due to a lack of footage, yet this critique is rooted in the existing characterization of Sam Wilson within the MCU. Viewers analyze based on established canon. If Sam is shown matching or exceeding superhuman feats in the future, it would represent a dramatic shift from his prior portrayal as a resourceful yet physically human character.

The skepticism isn’t baseless—it arises from concerns about consistency. Trailers are marketing tools, but they reflect the tone and narrative direction. If the trailer frames Sam as a physical equal to Red Hulk, fans naturally question how that fits with his established limits.

---

2. "Steve had inconsistencies too"​

While it’s true Steve Rogers has displayed feats of strength (e.g., holding a helicopter) that conflict with moments like his fight with Batroc, the comparison to Sam is flawed:

• Steve's Super Soldier Serum: Steve’s enhanced physiology is canonically established to elevate his strength, agility, and endurance to superhuman levels. This creates a plausible baseline, even if the MCU occasionally exaggerates it for dramatic effect.
• Sam’s Lack of Enhancements: Sam explicitly lacks any physical enhancement. His character is built around using his ingenuity, tech, and training to compensate. Portraying him in feats of strength comparable to Steve without explanation undermines the unique identity that makes Sam compelling.

The acknowledgment of Steve's inconsistencies doesn’t justify creating further inconsistencies with Sam. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

---

3. "Fans are nostalgic or biased against Sam"​

Doom85 asserts that skepticism toward Sam stems from favoritism for Steve or nostalgia. This argument dismisses valid concerns about narrative coherence:

• Viewer Expectations: Fans’ expectations for consistency aren’t inherently nostalgic. They’re based on the narrative rules the MCU has established. Steve’s superhuman feats were grounded in his serum-enhanced abilities, while Sam’s appeal lies in being a grounded, relatable human succeeding against the odds.
• New Characters: Fans have embraced new characters like Shang-Chi or Yelena without nitpicking because their capabilities align with their respective power sets and narratives. The criticism of Sam arises not from bias but from a potential departure from his established role as a non-enhanced hero.

---

4. "Story changes aren’t bad, it’s the viewer’s fault"​

Doom85 argues that changes to Sam’s characterization reflect growth, not inconsistency, and that viewers should adapt. However:

• Consistency in Growth: Growth doesn’t mean abandoning a character’s core traits. Sam’s charm lies in his humanity, resilience, and creativity. A shift toward superhuman feats without explanation risks making him feel derivative rather than distinct from Steve.
• Narrative Obligation: It’s the storyteller’s responsibility to ensure changes feel earned and coherent within the story world. A vibranium suit and wings enhance Sam’s abilities, but they don’t justify him withstanding a blow from Red Hulk or matching superhuman feats unless explicitly addressed.

---

5. "Ordinary humans as heroes remain"​

Doom85 highlights other non-enhanced characters like Yelena, Okoye, and Clint as evidence that ordinary humans still exist in the MCU. This point is irrelevant to the critique of Sam:

• These characters remain consistent with their established capabilities. Yelena uses her training, Okoye her martial skill, and Clint his marksmanship. If Sam is portrayed in a way that surpasses his previously grounded portrayal without explanation, it creates a specific inconsistency for his character—not ordinary humans as a whole.

---

Summary​

The skepticism toward Sam stems from valid concerns about narrative consistency, not nostalgia or bias. While the MCU has inconsistencies, Steve’s feats are anchored in the super-soldier serum, and his core characterization remains intact. If Sam’s portrayal deviates significantly from his grounded, human strengths without explanation, it risks undermining his unique appeal. Fans are asking for coherent storytelling, not perfection, and it’s the storytellers' responsibility to address these concerns within the narrative.

 

[FunkMiller]

Just use ChatGPT to respond to him.

1. "No footage exists to prove these assumptions"​

Doom85 argues that criticism of Sam Wilson holding his own against Red Hulk is unfounded due to a lack of footage, yet this critique is rooted in the existing characterization of Sam Wilson within the MCU. Viewers analyze based on established canon. If Sam is shown matching or exceeding superhuman feats in the future, it would represent a dramatic shift from his prior portrayal as a resourceful yet physically human character.

The skepticism isn’t baseless—it arises from concerns about consistency. Trailers are marketing tools, but they reflect the tone and narrative direction. If the trailer frames Sam as a physical equal to Red Hulk, fans naturally question how that fits with his established limits.

---

2. "Steve had inconsistencies too"​

While it’s true Steve Rogers has displayed feats of strength (e.g., holding a helicopter) that conflict with moments like his fight with Batroc, the comparison to Sam is flawed:

• Steve's Super Soldier Serum: Steve’s enhanced physiology is canonically established to elevate his strength, agility, and endurance to superhuman levels. This creates a plausible baseline, even if the MCU occasionally exaggerates it for dramatic effect.
• Sam’s Lack of Enhancements: Sam explicitly lacks any physical enhancement. His character is built around using his ingenuity, tech, and training to compensate. Portraying him in feats of strength comparable to Steve without explanation undermines the unique identity that makes Sam compelling.

The acknowledgment of Steve's inconsistencies doesn’t justify creating further inconsistencies with Sam. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

---

3. "Fans are nostalgic or biased against Sam"​

Doom85 asserts that skepticism toward Sam stems from favoritism for Steve or nostalgia. This argument dismisses valid concerns about narrative coherence:

• Viewer Expectations: Fans’ expectations for consistency aren’t inherently nostalgic. They’re based on the narrative rules the MCU has established. Steve’s superhuman feats were grounded in his serum-enhanced abilities, while Sam’s appeal lies in being a grounded, relatable human succeeding against the odds.
• New Characters: Fans have embraced new characters like Shang-Chi or Yelena without nitpicking because their capabilities align with their respective power sets and narratives. The criticism of Sam arises not from bias but from a potential departure from his established role as a non-enhanced hero.

---

4. "Story changes aren’t bad, it’s the viewer’s fault"​

Doom85 argues that changes to Sam’s characterization reflect growth, not inconsistency, and that viewers should adapt. However:

• Consistency in Growth: Growth doesn’t mean abandoning a character’s core traits. Sam’s charm lies in his humanity, resilience, and creativity. A shift toward superhuman feats without explanation risks making him feel derivative rather than distinct from Steve.
• Narrative Obligation: It’s the storyteller’s responsibility to ensure changes feel earned and coherent within the story world. A vibranium suit and wings enhance Sam’s abilities, but they don’t justify him withstanding a blow from Red Hulk or matching superhuman feats unless explicitly addressed.

---

5. "Ordinary humans as heroes remain"​

Doom85 highlights other non-enhanced characters like Yelena, Okoye, and Clint as evidence that ordinary humans still exist in the MCU. This point is irrelevant to the critique of Sam:

• These characters remain consistent with their established capabilities. Yelena uses her training, Okoye her martial skill, and Clint his marksmanship. If Sam is portrayed in a way that surpasses his previously grounded portrayal without explanation, it creates a specific inconsistency for his character—not ordinary humans as a whole.

---

Summary​

The skepticism toward Sam stems from valid concerns about narrative consistency, not nostalgia or bias. While the MCU has inconsistencies, Steve’s feats are anchored in the super-soldier serum, and his core characterization remains intact. If Sam’s portrayal deviates significantly from his grounded, human strengths without explanation, it risks undermining his unique appeal. Fans are asking for coherent storytelling, not perfection, and it’s the storytellers' responsibility to address these concerns within the narrative.

Chat GPT able to put the argument across better than me. Time to start drinking bleach.

 

[Doom85]

but you can't have Batman suddenly taking part in superheroic activities that an ordinary human being wouldn't be able to do.

That's what you're defending with this interpretation of Sam - in so far as this trailer and all the other marketing seems to indicate. What people are taking issue with rightly is that Sam is suddenly on the level of the super soldier, despite not having the same serum Cap had. It's not logically consistent with the story they've been telling.

Batman is frequently doing just that, doing things he should not be capable of as a strong but still human individual, The Batman (2022) especially went nuts with this and never mind the comics and cartoons. And only a select handful of fans acknowledge that, while most ignore it. You’re proving my point, fans like to do this overanalysis on certain characters while they ignore such inconsistencies for characters they like.

Again, I have pointed out multiple times that the trailers have shown zero footage of Sam physically fighting Red Hulk. His wings, which are vibranium, cut through a thrown car and that’s it. The poster is irrelevant, something shown on the poster is not proof it is in the film, and I would like to think people should know that. So all of this nitpicking is based on assumptions.

Just use ChatGPT to respond to him.

1. "No footage exists to prove these assumptions"​

Doom85 argues that criticism of Sam Wilson holding his own against Red Hulk is unfounded due to a lack of footage, yet this critique is rooted in the existing characterization of Sam Wilson within the MCU. Viewers analyze based on established canon. If Sam is shown matching or exceeding superhuman feats in the future, it would represent a dramatic shift from his prior portrayal as a resourceful yet physically human character.

The skepticism isn’t baseless—it arises from concerns about consistency. Trailers are marketing tools, but they reflect the tone and narrative direction. If the trailer frames Sam as a physical equal to Red Hulk, fans naturally question how that fits with his established limits.

---

2. "Steve had inconsistencies too"​

While it’s true Steve Rogers has displayed feats of strength (e.g., holding a helicopter) that conflict with moments like his fight with Batroc, the comparison to Sam is flawed:

• Steve's Super Soldier Serum: Steve’s enhanced physiology is canonically established to elevate his strength, agility, and endurance to superhuman levels. This creates a plausible baseline, even if the MCU occasionally exaggerates it for dramatic effect.
• Sam’s Lack of Enhancements: Sam explicitly lacks any physical enhancement. His character is built around using his ingenuity, tech, and training to compensate. Portraying him in feats of strength comparable to Steve without explanation undermines the unique identity that makes Sam compelling.

The acknowledgment of Steve's inconsistencies doesn’t justify creating further inconsistencies with Sam. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

---

3. "Fans are nostalgic or biased against Sam"​

Doom85 asserts that skepticism toward Sam stems from favoritism for Steve or nostalgia. This argument dismisses valid concerns about narrative coherence:

• Viewer Expectations: Fans’ expectations for consistency aren’t inherently nostalgic. They’re based on the narrative rules the MCU has established. Steve’s superhuman feats were grounded in his serum-enhanced abilities, while Sam’s appeal lies in being a grounded, relatable human succeeding against the odds.
• New Characters: Fans have embraced new characters like Shang-Chi or Yelena without nitpicking because their capabilities align with their respective power sets and narratives. The criticism of Sam arises not from bias but from a potential departure from his established role as a non-enhanced hero.

---

4. "Story changes aren’t bad, it’s the viewer’s fault"​

Doom85 argues that changes to Sam’s characterization reflect growth, not inconsistency, and that viewers should adapt. However:

• Consistency in Growth: Growth doesn’t mean abandoning a character’s core traits. Sam’s charm lies in his humanity, resilience, and creativity. A shift toward superhuman feats without explanation risks making him feel derivative rather than distinct from Steve.
• Narrative Obligation: It’s the storyteller’s responsibility to ensure changes feel earned and coherent within the story world. A vibranium suit and wings enhance Sam’s abilities, but they don’t justify him withstanding a blow from Red Hulk or matching superhuman feats unless explicitly addressed.

---

5. "Ordinary humans as heroes remain"​

Doom85 highlights other non-enhanced characters like Yelena, Okoye, and Clint as evidence that ordinary humans still exist in the MCU. This point is irrelevant to the critique of Sam:

• These characters remain consistent with their established capabilities. Yelena uses her training, Okoye her martial skill, and Clint his marksmanship. If Sam is portrayed in a way that surpasses his previously grounded portrayal without explanation, it creates a specific inconsistency for his character—not ordinary humans as a whole.

---

Summary​

The skepticism toward Sam stems from valid concerns about narrative consistency, not nostalgia or bias. While the MCU has inconsistencies, Steve’s feats are anchored in the super-soldier serum, and his core characterization remains intact. If Sam’s portrayal deviates significantly from his grounded, human strengths without explanation, it risks undermining his unique appeal. Fans are asking for coherent storytelling, not perfection, and it’s the storytellers' responsibility to address these concerns within the narrative.

Does ChatGPT have video proof of this supposed footage of Sam physically going toe to toe with Red Hulk that other people here keep claiming is happening yet I can find zero footage of myself*, and does it also understand movie posters frequently depict things that don’t happen in the film? Asking for a friend.

*seriously, if we’re just pretending these assumptions are fact, again to use BvS, when the trailer showed Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman standing together facing Doomsday, well based on the logic displayed by some posters here, I should have back then been like, “wait, Batman is going to physically fight Doomsday?! OMG, this movie is stupid! Ugh!” Sure, the trailer never actually SHOWS Batman physically fighting Doomsday, but hey, assumptions are apparently hardcore facts!

Seriously, if I get one more reply from another person that assumes Sam will physically go toe to toe with Red Hulk, I’ll take a cue from you using ChatGPT and I’ll just start using a link to the dictionary definition of “assumption”.

 

[EviLore]

Batman is frequently doing just that, doing things he should not be capable of as a strong but still human individual, The Batman (2022) especially went nuts with this and never mind the comics and cartoons. And only a select handful of fans acknowledge that, while most ignore it. You’re proving my point, fans like to do this overanalysis on certain characters while they ignore such inconsistencies for characters they like.

Again, I have pointed out multiple times that the trailers have shown zero footage of Sam physically fighting Red Hulk. His wings, which are vibranium, cut through a thrown car and that’s it. The poster is irrelevant, something shown on the poster is not proof it is in the film, and I would like to think people should know that. So all of this nitpicking is based on assumptions.



Does ChatGPT have video proof of this supposed footage of Sam physically going toe to toe with Red Hulk that other people here keep claiming is happening yet I can find zero footage of myself*, and does it also understand movie posters frequently depict things that don’t happen in the film? Asking for a friend.

*seriously, if we’re just pretending these assumptions are fact, again to use BvS, when the trailer showed Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman standing together facing Doomsday, well based on the logic displayed by some posters here, I should have back then been like, “wait, Batman is going to physically fight Doomsday?! OMG, this movie is stupid! Ugh!” Sure, the trailer never actually SHOWS Batman physically fighting Doomsday, but hey, assumptions are apparently hardcore facts!

Seriously, if I get one more reply from another person that assumes Sam will physically go toe to toe with Red Hulk, I’ll take a cue from you using ChatGPT and I’ll just start using a link to the dictionary definition of “assumption”.

------------

ChatGPT said:​

Doom85, your passionate defense of Sam as Captain America is duly noted, but let’s address your points with a little more clarity and precision, as the emotional volume of your responses seems to be clouding the actual debate.

---

1. "Batman does it, so why can’t Sam?"​

Yes, Batman’s feats often stretch beyond human limits, but this doesn’t bolster your argument. In fact, it undermines it. The suspension of disbelief for Batman is largely baked into his character’s mythos—he operates in a world where "prep time" and gadgets justify nearly anything. Fans accept this because it’s consistent with how Batman has been written for decades, even if it’s ridiculous.
Sam, however, is operating in the MCU, which prides itself on internal consistency and grounded characters (for the most part). When fans question Sam performing feats on par with characters like Red Hulk, it’s because the established rules of the MCU (and Sam’s characterization) don’t support it. Batman’s over-the-top feats are a feature of his franchise, not a justification for ignoring logical consistency in other stories.

---

2. "No footage shows Sam fighting Red Hulk"​

You’re absolutely correct: no footage explicitly shows Sam engaging Red Hulk in a brawl. But the critique isn’t about an assumption that Sam will fight Red Hulk hand-to-hand; it’s about concerns over how he’ll realistically handle an opponent like Red Hulk if such a confrontation occurs. The skepticism is rooted in valid precedent:

• Trailers and posters often frame showdowns between protagonists and antagonists, creating expectations. Fans are simply reacting to how the film’s marketing suggests Sam will face superhuman threats.
• If Sam is shown succeeding in such scenarios through means that contradict his established capabilities, the criticism will be justified.

This isn’t “pretending assumptions are fact”; it’s discussing potential implications based on reasonable inferences from the marketing material. Your BvS comparison fails because Batman facing Doomsday was never implied to be a physical confrontation. The MCU, however, has repeatedly leaned into visually literal depictions of conflict in trailers (e.g., Steve vs. Tony in Civil War), making fans’ concerns about Sam’s portrayal less far-fetched.

---

3. "Movie posters aren’t proof"​

Yes, movie posters can be misleading. But let’s not pretend the critique hinges solely on a single poster. The broader conversation is about how Sam, as a non-enhanced character, is portrayed in the MCU and whether his arc retains coherence. Pointing out the poster’s limitations doesn’t negate the fact that Marvel’s marketing often reflects core elements of the story.
Instead of fixating on the lack of "proof," it might be more constructive to engage with the central concern: whether Sam’s portrayal respects the character’s established limitations or succumbs to the spectacle-driven pitfalls of superhero storytelling.

---

4. "Assumptions aren’t facts"​

You repeatedly emphasize the word "assumptions" as if it invalidates fan concerns. Here’s the thing: discussions about fictional media often involve speculation, especially in response to trailers, posters, and promotional material. You seem oddly resistant to this natural part of fandom discourse.
Perhaps instead of reflexively deriding others’ “assumptions,” you could take a step back and realize that fans are engaging with Sam’s character because they care. If you’re so averse to assumptions, it’s curious why you’re making so many about the motivations behind these critiques, accusing fans of nostalgia and bias rather than acknowledging their legitimate interest in narrative consistency.

---

5. Tone and Overreaction​

The repeated sarcasm and rhetorical flourishes in your responses (e.g., “does ChatGPT have video proof?” or threatening to link dictionary definitions) don’t add strength to your argument—they detract from it. You’ve clearly put thought into your points, but the hyper-defensive tone suggests a deep emotional investment that’s leading you to dismiss fair questions as attacks.

---

Final Thoughts​

This discussion isn’t about tearing Sam down; it’s about ensuring his journey as Captain America remains compelling and coherent. The skepticism voiced by fans stems from a desire to see Sam thrive as a character without losing what makes him unique. Your accusations of favoritism and dismissiveness toward concerns about narrative coherence reveal a greater attachment to winning the argument than to engaging meaningfully with the points raised.
Take a breath, Doom85. Sometimes, addressing concerns calmly and directly does more to build your case than flinging rhetorical barbs and declaring victory prematurely.

------------

Uh-oh, ChatGPT seems to be losing its patience!

 

[FunkMiller]

This discussion isn’t about tearing Sam down; it’s about ensuring his journey as Captain America remains compelling and coherent. The skepticism voiced by fans stems from a desire to see Sam thrive as a character without losing what makes him unique. Your accusations of favoritism and dismissiveness toward concerns about narrative coherence reveal a greater attachment to winning the argument than to engaging meaningfully with the points raised.

I hate how well this is phrased. Absolutely hate it

 

[Doom85]

You know the way I see it, enjoying any movie for what it is is a more pleasant way to enjoy life as opposed to negatively overanalyzing certain films and characters while looking for justifications on why that same level of analysis wasn’t given to prior films and characters. If the latter makes some of you happy for god knows what reason, you do you, the same way some people put ranch dressing all over their pizza and it makes them happy despite such a sight making me question what blasphemy I’m witnessing.

 

[FunkMiller]

You know the way I see it, enjoying any movie for what it is is a more pleasant way to enjoy life as opposed to negatively overanalyzing certain films and characters while looking for justifications on why that same level of analysis wasn’t given to prior films and characters. If the latter makes some of you happy for god knows what reason, you do you, the same way some people put ranch dressing all over their pizza and it makes them happy despite such a sight making me question what blasphemy I’m witnessing.

'Just consume and be happy'.

The way we get better movies and TV shows is to be critical when large corporations like Disney do a bad job at making movies and TV shows. Captain America 4 may well end up being great, but it's perfectly acceptable for people to question what we've seen already, given how poor Disney's most recent output has been.

 

[DeafTourette]

His suit is vibranium... Not just the wings. So he can do that landing.

ChatGPT knows Marvel better than Disney/Marvel.

Can we stop with the Falcon project and start moving towards Bucky as Capt. They have to find a way to murder Steve Rogers but hell I'll be fine with murdering Falcon.

No.

 

[Kraz]

I personally suspect another character will develop something designed to temporarily revert Ross back to human form. Sam will mainly just be distracting Red Hulk, like Batman did to Doomsday in BvS, until that character can arrive.

Then once Ross figures out how to control the Red Hulk form, he and Sam and the others will reluctantly team up to deal with The Leader.

That works and there's an clear legacy character that could suit that role.
The Celestial opens up the possibility some Eternals might even show up too.

If scenes showcase Sam as tactician/leadership, and weave some of the diverse mcu threads from the films together, it could really work for this character, centralize the film, and start bringing things together.

I like the idea of Sam's suit being upgraded to up his strength and durability, rather than serum. As I think the movie will continue with the D+ shows narrative about serum, and put the Thunderbolts in an antagonistic position.

 

[Doom85]

'Just consume and be happy'.

Oversimpfly my argument by using a condescending RLM quote. Good for you.

given how poor Disney's most recent output has been.

I’ve enjoyed most of Phase 4 and 5 for the most part. Of course, people will just stereotype me as a Disney simp or such (and this isn’t unfair for me to say, people on this forum have called me and others such) because heaven forbid they live in a reality where a reasonable person enjoys something they don’t. Funny how they’re allowed to mock my enjoyment, but when I get “frustrated”, that warrants being called out on.

You know who I think sucks shit? Illumination. The Mario movie was the definition of mid, carried hard purely by IP recognition in my eyes. The first two Despicable Mes were okay, but 3 sucked hard (save for the villain, who was legit funny), and Minions 1 was bad and 2 was atrocious. Pets 1 was forgettable, while 2 was bad with three major stories that did not connect at all. Yet I’m not mocking anyone here who enjoys some of those films as “Illumination simps” or whatever, or using an unfair RLM quote on them.

I’m beyond irritated that my comments here have to be dismissed and called out as being frustrated and such, but it’s perfectly okay in other threads for people to mock me for enjoying Phase 4 and 5. I have done everything I can to avoid directly or indirectly insulting people for opposing opinions (and no, I do not consider me saying people are letting nostalgia and/or favoritism make them biased to be an insult, that’s clearly a reach), yes I get frustrated, but I do my damned hardest to not sink to that. Yet other people do not afford me that same generosity. Even you, Funk, indirectly insulted me when you called people who enjoyed Alien Romulus “idiots” in another thread. I do not hate you for that, but it is frustrating to talk to you now knowing you could just say things like that.

Like I hate that I feel I’m walking on a line and if I even wobble, I get boo’d, but some others are just allowed to frequently have a foot fully land off their line and it’s treated like no big deal, often getting praised instead.

I’ll be less frustrated about all this when some of the people here learn to respect other opinions while still disagreeing with them, instead of throwing out a cheap “you just blindly consume anything of this media/series/franchise/etc.” I highly doubt that will happen, but I’d love to be proven wrong.

 

[DeafTourette]

Ignoring whenever Sam can tank a hulk.

What about him throwing the shield with inhuman strength? Where he throws the shield at missiles that are flying at mach2+ speeds while he's flying at mach2 was dumb as hell. Steve Rodgers never did any of this outrageous shit.

Before was just a low level jobber with wings. But seems his wings were upgraded, so there's some reason for his increases abilities.

John Walker threw the shield JUST like Steve BEFORE he took the new Super Soldier serum.

The shield doesn't follow the laws of physics and is pretty light. Vibranium has a number of features that are unlike most metals. So Sam throwing the shield, with momentum going as Sam is flying, isn't too bad. And how do you know the missiles are going at Mach 2+? Not all do unless they're ICBMs or something like it. They look like cruise missiles which usually travel at subsonic speeds.

Rogers never did any outrageous shit?



Forget Rulk punching the shield in that poster, Thor bringing down Mjolnir on the shield should have killed Steve, too.

It was Sam's whole suit and wings, a gift from Wakanda courtesy of the Dora Milaje (probably thanks to Shuri's genius) on a favor for Bucky, are made of vibranium.

 

[Days like these...]

Oversimpfly my argument by using a condescending RLM quote. Good for you.



I’ve enjoyed most of Phase 4 and 5 for the most part. Of course, people will just stereotype me as a Disney simp or such (and this isn’t unfair for me to say, people on this forum have called me and others such) because heaven forbid they live in a reality where a reasonable person enjoys something they don’t. Funny how they’re allowed to mock my enjoyment, but when I get “frustrated”, that warrants being called out on.

You know who I think sucks shit? Illumination. The Mario movie was the definition of mid, carried hard purely by IP recognition in my eyes. The first two Despicable Mes were okay, but 3 sucked hard (save for the villain, who was legit funny), and Minions 1 was bad and 2 was atrocious. Pets 1 was forgettable, while 2 was bad with three major stories that did not connect at all. Yet I’m not mocking anyone here who enjoys some of those films as “Illumination simps” or whatever, or using an unfair RLM quote on them.

I’m beyond irritated that my comments here have to be dismissed and called out as being frustrated and such, but it’s perfectly okay in other threads for people to mock me for enjoying Phase 4 and 5. I have done everything I can to avoid directly or indirectly insulting people for opposing opinions (and no, I do not consider me saying people are letting nostalgia and/or favoritism make them biased to be an insult, that’s clearly a reach), yes I get frustrated, but I do my damned hardest to not sink to that. Yet other people do not afford me that same generosity. Even you, Funk, indirectly insulted me when you called people who enjoyed Alien Romulus “idiots” in another thread. I do not hate you for that, but it is frustrating to talk to you now knowing you could just say things like that.

Like I hate that I feel I’m walking on a line and if I even wobble, I get boo’d, but some others are just allowed to frequently have a foot fully land off their line and it’s treated like no big deal, often getting praised instead.

I’ll be less frustrated about all this when some of the people here learn to respect other opinions while still disagreeing with them, instead of throwing out a cheap “you just blindly consume anything of this media/series/franchise/etc.” I highly doubt that will happen, but I’d love to be proven wrong.

I respect people that enjoy trash like Romulus if they admit it's trash otherwise I don't.

 

[Doom85]

I respect people that enjoy trash like Romulus if they admit it's trash otherwise I don't.

 

[bitbydeath]

He’s canonically a Cap. He has the shield, the military history, the desire to help others, etc. The only thing he doesn’t have that Steve did is the serum, but the first movie made it abundantly clear that the serum was not what made Steve truly a hero. That moment where he shielded everyone from the grenade, THAT’S what made it clear he was always Captain America. To quote Tony Stark, “if you’re nothing without the suit, then you shouldn’t have it.”

Being the first to hold a mantle has never made the following legacy characters of that mantle not the “actual” ones.

Otherwise, one would be telling Green Lantern fans that Alan Scott is the “actual” Green Lantern, and telling Flash fans that Jay Garrick is the “actual” Flash, which would be…….a take.

Like I said, it’s fine to have a preferred holder of a mantle. It’s fine to not be interested in stories following other holders of the mantle. I just find it unfair to dismiss those others in such a manner, especially because chances are there is at least one comic character you like who is actually not the first to hold that mantle. Hell, I just recently found out that the Metallo (Superman villain) I’ve always known is not the first Metallo, there is a much older Metallo from the 1940’s who more or less disappeared when the second Metallo came along.

Problem is Sam’s a real asshole and undeserving of the shield. The entire way through the Falcon show John tried playing by the book, asking for help, genuinely being a nice guy and Sam would constantly spit in his face.

That’s no Cap.

Eg.

 

[FunkMiller]

Forget Rulk punching the shield in that poster, Thor bringing down Mjolnir on the shield should have killed Steve, too.

It was Sam's whole suit and wings, a gift from Wakanda courtesy of the Dora Milaje (probably thanks to Shuri's genius) on a favor for Bucky, are made of vibranium.

I think the poster is a bit of a mislead, because I doubt it represents anything that actually happens in the movie. The issue is more with the idea that suddenly Sam is able to do the same kinds of thing Steve was able to do (hell, exceeding him in some cases), despite not being a supersoldier, and having already been established as a normal, flawed and weak human being in comparison.

This is especially holds true if you're going to have Sam go up against such a strong opponent in Red Hulk, who is stronger than anything faced by Steve in his three individual movies. Not sure 'it's all a gift from Wakanda' is a particularly great way to excuse things the character should not be capable of. Better writing is needed than that.

This could have, and should have been a really excellent character study of what it's like to take on such a heavy mantle and burden. But that's all been sacrificed for big dumb CGI action, as always. Sigh.

 

[DeafTourette]

I think the poster is a bit of a mislead, because I doubt it represents anything that actually happens in the movie. The issue is more with the idea that suddenly Sam is able to do the same kinds of thing Steve was able to do (hell, exceeding him in some cases), despite not being a supersoldier, and having already been established as a normal, flawed and weak human being in comparison.

This is especially holds true if you're going to have Sam go up against such a strong opponent in Red Hulk, who is stronger than anything faced by Steve in his three individual movies. Not sure 'it's all a gift from Wakanda' is a particularly great way to excuse things the character should not be capable of. Better writing is needed than that.

This could have, and should have been a really excellent character study of what it's like to take on such a heavy mantle and burden. But that's all been sacrificed for big dumb CGI action, as always. Sigh.

We still haven't seen the movie, tho. We have no idea how Sam's journey is playing out in it. We saw a bit in F&TWS ... We'll see more in the movie. And those wings give him an edge over Steve in covering large distances, momentum, etc. Now couple that with vibranium... He's basically Iron Man lite... Even though he already was that with the goggles and Redwing in Civil War.

 

[FunkMiller]

We still haven't seen the movie, tho. We have no idea how Sam's journey is playing out in it. We saw a bit in F&TWS ... We'll see more in the movie. And those wings give him an edge over Steve in covering large distances, momentum, etc. Now couple that with vibranium... He's basically Iron Man lite... Even though he already was that with the goggles and Redwing in Civil War.

I think it's a big mistake for them to go full blown MCU huge with this one personally. Sam's character just doesn't feel right for that kind of story. Red Hulk is the biggest mistake as an antagonist.

But, as you say, the movie may be different from what the trailers are selling... but in that case, why make the trailers this way?

 

[DeafTourette]

I think it's a big mistake for them to go full blown MCU huge with this one personally. Sam's character just doesn't feel right for that kind of story. But, as you say, the movie may be different from what the trailers are selling... but in that case, why make the trailers this way?

Remember Endgame's trailers? Keep the plot twists and surprises... A surprise.

Feige already let slip that Adamantium will play a part in the movie ... And we'll see the dead celestial finally!

 

[GateofD]

how they explain the actor change, I know the previous one passed away.

The thing is with Sam, if you haven't watched Falcon & The Winter Soldier (and I'm sure a majority haven't), all you have is him in the movies where he never had a single development scene for his character at all. He's just Cap's black friend.

 

[DeafTourette]

Oh ... Someone said Chadwick wasn't a good leading man.

He was lead actor in several movies before and after he was cast as T'Challa.

 

[EviLore]

MBJ had the bigger main character energy in Black Panther but that was utilized intentionally. You had the stoic, regal, soft-spoken Chadwick against the arrogant, angry, flashy MBJ. Good casting all around.

 

[DeafTourette]

how they explain the actor change, I know the previous one passed away.

The thing is with Sam, if you haven't watched Falcon & The Winter Soldier (and I'm sure a majority haven't), all you have is him in the movies where he never had a single development scene for his character at all. He's just Cap's black friend.

If people remember, he was given the shield at the end of Endgame... I swear people don't remember Endgame whatsoever... It's not a leap to go from that scene to Capt 4... Because Steve passed the mantle on to Sam.

And I disagree with your assessment of "no development" with Sam. He has had a good amount of development across the films. Yeah, he's Cap's OTHER best friend. He gained Cap's respect and admiration since Winter Soldier and their friendship grew from there. WHO Sam is is who he was in the movies... Someone who saw the good in others and wanted to protect innocents. Someone who would jump on the grenade to save others. He had a lot of the same qualities as Steve as far as heart.

Problem is Sam’s a real asshole and undeserving of the shield. The entire way through the Falcon show John tried playing by the book, asking for help, genuinely being a nice guy and Sam would constantly spit in his face.

That’s no Cap.

Eg.

Bucky didn't like him either. And you don't remember how Walker came off? To Sam and Bucky, Walker was unfit to carry on Steve's legacy with his arrogance, entitlement, etc. Even the way he let Valentina talk to his wife should be a disqualifier.

Yeah, Walker was a good soldier but he didn't have a good heart. And Sam and Bucky both saw that.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So you didn't watch Endgame when Steve passed the shield and mantle to Sam?

How could he watch Endgame which came out in 2019, when he said the last Marvel he watched was in 2016?

 

[bitbydeath]

Bucky didn't like him either. And you don't remember how Walker came off? To Sam and Bucky, Walker was unfit to carry on Steve's legacy with his arrogance, entitlement, etc. Even the way he let Valentina talk to his wife should be a disqualifier.

Yeah, Walker was a good soldier but he didn't have a good heart. And Sam and Bucky both saw that.

Other way around.
John had the absolute best heart and traits of Steve Rogers.

Sam and Bucky were both bullies towards John, they kept making bad decisions which got them thrown into jail which John being the nice guy that he is, bails them out. Should have left them to rot as them later siding with a murderer led to the death of John’s partner Lemar.

Even at the end John put all their BS aside to help defeat the bad guys.

He was done real dirty by people who are supposed to be upholding the Cap title.

 

[March Climber]

FunkMiller and bitbydeath An easy way to understand the standoffishness of Bucky and Sam seeing a guy parade around in a Cap uniform with his shield a few months after Steve was gone from their lives, is to ask yourself how you felt and/or how much you cringed during Iron Heart's scenes in the movie after Endgame, and how much you cringe when you see this trailer:

 

[Days like these...]

If like a movie thats trash I have no problem admitting it's trash.

 

[GateofD]

If people remember, he was given the shield at the end of Endgame... I swear people don't remember Endgame whatsoever... It's not a leap to go from that scene to Capt 4... Because Steve passed the mantle on to Sam.

And I disagree with your assessment of "no development" with Sam. He has had a good amount of development across the films. Yeah, he's Cap's OTHER best friend. He gained Cap's respect and admiration since Winter Soldier and their friendship grew from there. WHO Sam is is who he was in the movies... Someone who saw the good in others and wanted to protect innocents. Someone who would jump on the grenade to save others. He had a lot of the same qualities as Steve as far as heart.

The attributes you listed is the most generic thing. And doesn't really separate him from any other do-gooder in the Avengers. "He's a good person" oh ok.
He starts off as Steve's jogging buddy, and joins the Avengers as Falcon later, and from there on, he's just the background fighter and comes in now and then when you press the assist button. But he had no growth that we actually see, other than some power upgrades as the films progress.

Falcon and Winter Soldier did give him development. But given the pattern we seen, the movies have to /need to assume the average movie-watcher has no idea and its been written that way. But I am going into the movies after watched it, so Sam does have more weight to me because I did actually see his struggles in that. Saying that most of the audience isn't going to go into it with that.

I agree with others, I guess Falcon beats Red Hulk because its the first time he transforms, so he's not used to it, so Falcon gets a win from lv1 Red Hulk

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Oh ... Someone said Chadwick wasn't a good leading man.

He was lead actor in several movies before and after he was cast as T'Challa.

Chadwick had leading man charisma but Mackie doesn't have leading man charisma

It's not gonna to make its budget back. 400 Million is alot of money for a production budget. For the movie to break even, it's gonna to have to make at least over 400 million. It'll be interesting to see how the reception is because I know you loved the Falcon show on Disney Plus when lot of people (including me) hated it

So we shall see how things turn out. And personally I think it's gonna to bomb

 

[yet_another_alt]

Other way around.
John had the absolute best heart and traits of Steve Rogers.

Sam and Bucky were both bullies towards John, they kept making bad decisions which got them thrown into jail which John being the nice guy that he is, bails them out. Should have left them to rot as them later siding with a murderer led to the death of John’s partner Lemar.

Even at the end John put all their BS aside to help defeat the bad guys.

He was done real dirty by people who are supposed to be upholding the Cap title.

Yeah, John was the most relatable character in the series. He wasn't preachy, he wasn't mopey. He was just a soldier trying to do the right thing while standing by his mates. I'll never understand how he was painted as an antagonist when he felt like the character that felt most human. Yeah, he's no Steve Rogers but the dude was trying to do the best he can and what made him snap was something that would have made anyone snap. Cap material? Probably not but no one should be surprised that people ended up rooting for him.

 

[bitbydeath]

FunkMiller and bitbydeath An easy way to understand the standoffishness of Bucky and Sam seeing a guy parade around in a Cap uniform with his shield a few months after Steve was gone from their lives, is to ask yourself how you felt and/or how much you cringed during Iron Heart's scenes in the movie after Endgame, and how much you cringe when you see this trailer:

Would you bully her for it though?

 

[NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt]

Oversimpfly my argument by using a condescending RLM quote. Good for you.



I’ve enjoyed most of Phase 4 and 5 for the most part. Of course, people will just stereotype me as a Disney simp or such (and this isn’t unfair for me to say, people on this forum have called me and others such) because heaven forbid they live in a reality where a reasonable person enjoys something they don’t. Funny how they’re allowed to mock my enjoyment, but when I get “frustrated”, that warrants being called out on.

You know who I think sucks shit? Illumination. The Mario movie was the definition of mid, carried hard purely by IP recognition in my eyes. The first two Despicable Mes were okay, but 3 sucked hard (save for the villain, who was legit funny), and Minions 1 was bad and 2 was atrocious. Pets 1 was forgettable, while 2 was bad with three major stories that did not connect at all. Yet I’m not mocking anyone here who enjoys some of those films as “Illumination simps” or whatever, or using an unfair RLM quote on them.

I’m beyond irritated that my comments here have to be dismissed and called out as being frustrated and such, but it’s perfectly okay in other threads for people to mock me for enjoying Phase 4 and 5. I have done everything I can to avoid directly or indirectly insulting people for opposing opinions (and no, I do not consider me saying people are letting nostalgia and/or favoritism make them biased to be an insult, that’s clearly a reach), yes I get frustrated, but I do my damned hardest to not sink to that. Yet other people do not afford me that same generosity. Even you, Funk, indirectly insulted me when you called people who enjoyed Alien Romulus “idiots” in another thread. I do not hate you for that, but it is frustrating to talk to you now knowing you could just say things like that.

Like I hate that I feel I’m walking on a line and if I even wobble, I get boo’d, but some others are just allowed to frequently have a foot fully land off their line and it’s treated like no big deal, often getting praised instead.

I’ll be less frustrated about all this when some of the people here learn to respect other opinions while still disagreeing with them, instead of throwing out a cheap “you just blindly consume anything of this media/series/franchise/etc.” I highly doubt that will happen, but I’d love to be proven wrong.

I hope the Minions show up in Super Mario Bros Movie 2