I agree with you, the XBox One X is 6TF, Sony going 9TF is simply not a 'generational' upgrade in my opinion. I could be wrong though. Perhaps Sony will launch a standard console and a Pro variant on day one? With the standard being 9TF? If they only put out a 9TF console and MS put out a 12TF console it would give MS a huge advantage.
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[Digital Foundry] PlayStation 5/ Xbox Series X New GPU Spec Leak Analysis: 9.2TF vs 12TF?
- Thread starter Bullet Club
- Start date
I agree with you, the XBox One X is 6TF, Sony going 9TF is simply not a 'generational' upgrade in my opinion. I could be wrong though. Perhaps Sony will launch a standard console and a Pro variant on day one? With the standard being 9TF? If they only put out a 9TF console and MS put out a 12TF console it would give MS a huge advantage.
whether you believe it or not, it will be the case.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
?
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Humdinger
Gold Member
If you compare X to XSX and PS4 Pro to this rumor, the jump would be the same in both cases (about twice the TFs). So it'd be about the same distance jump for both sides.
Maybe Sony is content to be slightly less powerful than Xbox, with the advantage of lower pricing. The power differential didn't hurt them in the latter half of this generation, and they certainly learned the value of a $399 price point last gen.
I would prefer 12 TF, but I'll be happy with 9 TF, knowing that TFs don't tell the whole story and we're getting other improvements that make a significant difference (better CPU, etc.).
01011001
Banned
wooohhh... a bit overdramatic are we?
the PS4 was the first time ever that Sony had the most powerful GPU... how would it be a disaster if they were behind in GPU performance like they were the first 3 generations of PlayStation?
I really don't get the panic by people who think 9.2TF would be such an awful GPU
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StrongGuy
Member
wooohhh... a bit overdramatic are we?
the PS4 was the first time ever that Sony had the more powerful GPU... how would it be a disaster if they were behind in GPU performance like they were the first 3 generations of PlayStation?
I really don't get the panic by people who think 9.2TF would be such an awful GPU
1. SONY usually always released first, so it's excusable that their consoles were weaker
2. When SONY releases in the same year as competitors, they are always on top.
3. Microsoft is just using the same architecture as the PS4 and Xbox ONE X. SONY should easily match it by just upgrading parts. Hardly any R&D required to just swap out the GDDR5 with GDDR6, put a better CPU and a better GPU with as many CUs as possible.
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01011001
Banned
that is so wrong it's funny.
the PS3 released a full year after the 360 and had a worse GPU and lacked the 360s EDRAM.
Interested to see how this all pans out but there are some really crazy threads on both here and Resetera.
A 9.2TF PS5 RDNA (Equiv to approx 3 times ps4 pro) sounds ideal as far as I am concerned, I am still very doubtful of 2ghz clocks and I expects something different as it sounds a nightmare to cool as do the rumors of a 12TF (RDNA) XBOX but I guess we will see.
I currently have a PS4 Pro and switch in the living room and a number of Gaming rigs in the office, current highest spec is Vega 56 with 3700X (I have owned all the xboxs including the OneX but always end up selling them as I like the idea but end up simply unused)
What I will say though is that the gaming experience on my current PC is just utterly brilliant at 1440p so all this talk of being unhappy with ps5 at 9.2TF is very shortsighted and surely can only be fanboyism as the games themselves will be awesome.
A 9.2TF PS5 RDNA (Equiv to approx 3 times ps4 pro) sounds ideal as far as I am concerned, I am still very doubtful of 2ghz clocks and I expects something different as it sounds a nightmare to cool as do the rumors of a 12TF (RDNA) XBOX but I guess we will see.
I currently have a PS4 Pro and switch in the living room and a number of Gaming rigs in the office, current highest spec is Vega 56 with 3700X (I have owned all the xboxs including the OneX but always end up selling them as I like the idea but end up simply unused)
What I will say though is that the gaming experience on my current PC is just utterly brilliant at 1440p so all this talk of being unhappy with ps5 at 9.2TF is very shortsighted and surely can only be fanboyism as the games themselves will be awesome.
StrongGuy
Member
PS1 and PS2 were released 1+ years before competitor. So was PS4 PRO.
PS4 was released at the same time as Xbox ONE, and it shat all over the Xbone.
PS3 was debatable. They went with an exotic architecture and got slammed. SONY always aimed to make the most powerful console, and it would be very surprising if they made a weaker console using a more traditional architecture and releasing in the same year.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I was just discussing objective technical advantages, simply noted the areas where DC has an advantage over PS2, and the areas PS2 has an advantage over DC. Not the how and why so why draw this out into a giant write-up?
But yes, to reiterate: DC had the advantage in VRAM, resolution, and texture quality (on average). PS2 had the advantage in faster CPU, physics, polygon geometry and lighting. I don't think listing it's technical advantages in select areas relative PS2 equals me implying it's a better/more overall powerful system than PS2.
Besides, Sony basically gained a monopoly that gen with having almost all of the best of the best work on their system, plus its success gave them financial incentive to push PS2 hardware with new tricks. Dreamcast didn't enjoy those luxuries; only some of the big industry titans supported the system and it never reached a point of market saturation to give them financial incentive to push the system more.
I'm not saying they'd be able to get the highest-quality PS2 results on DC; I'm just speculating that, naturally, if DC had a longer shelf life, the top-end would've gotten closer visually to what we'd see with PS2's top end in its latter years.
Panaphonics
Banned
lol no. Nintendo did that. Remember NES? Or the Wii?
01011001
Banned
the fact still stands. the PS3 had a worse GPU, that's not debatable.
it had a worse RAM setup with its split ram pool and no edRAM to help with bandwidth.
and my point is that it was never an issue for Sony to not be the most powerful system of any given generation.
so how on earth would it be a disaster this time around?
the fucking PS3 eveb managed to slightly beat out the 360 in total sales... granted it took them almost the whole generation to catch up, but they did catch up... with being a year behind and having a worse GPU.
the time of release is therefore completely irrelevant to the argument.
my argument therefore still stands, Sony was ALWAYS behind in GPU performance except for the PS4 vs Xbox One battle.
and they still always won against their more powerful competition.
so answer me, again, HOW would it be a disaster if they were 30% behind in raw GPU power?
it wouldn't be their first time...
StrongGuy
Member
The PS3 had a better CPU which off-set the weaker GPU.
You don't get it. SONY got away with weaker consoles because they released 1+ years before their competitors did. If they released a weaker console at the same exact time as their competitors, they would've gotten smashed.
When SONY goes with traditional architecture and the same release date, SONY destroys the competition. Even Microsoft understands this, because they ended up copying SONY's UMA architecture for the Xbox ONE X and XseX.
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PS3 422 Gflops CPU + GPU
X360 355 Gflops CPU + GPU
Xbox 360 technical specifications - Wikipedia
RSX Reality Synthesizer - Wikipedia
That's a fair call. However I think the power disparity in the 2nd half of the generation(with PS4 Pro and Xbox One X) did not hurt them was because they were mid-gen refreshes and were almost seen as niche/hardcore gamer consoles.
Here in Australia we are seeing the Xbox One X selling for half it's RRP on Black Friday, Boxing day etc which shows that a $499US/$650AUS console is simply too expensive for the mass market. But of course if MS release a base console at a cheaper price along with the XSX, this wouldn't be a huge problem.
I think we might find out more at CES in a few days. Mark Cerny is a smart guy so I have hope that we will see a closer fight. Time will tell though.
01011001
Banned
how many times has that happened? oh yes... once...
so stating it like that's a pattern that we were able to see multiple times is fucking weird...
"when sony released the same year and same architecture, THEN THEY RULED THE HARDWARE SIDE!" yes... yes they did... that one time they did that... once... in the history of Sony and gaming...
and no the CPU of the PS3 didn't help much either and was weaker than the 360s CPU for many tasks a game engine performs because it had only a single fully blown core to use for these things while the 360 had 3. so the CPU had enough to compensate for on the CPU side alone that there wasn't much left for it to help with GPU tasks.
only a hand full of exclusives actually took advantage of this and even those aren't very impressive... I laugh every time someone vrings up The Last of Us as an example with its 20fps as soon as anything taxing is on screen and it's awful AA.
Sony was always behind in performance and always beat the more powerful competition, that's a fact.
this might be because they released a year early on 2 of these occasions but it might not be... we don't know.
01011001
Banned
PS3 422 Gflops CPU + GPU
X360 355 Gflops CPU + GPU
Xbox 360 technical specifications - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
RSX Reality Synthesizer - Wikipedia
these numbers are useless...
the Cell CPU has a potential performance of above 2.3 terraflops... that didn't help it in any game tho... even GTA5 which was developed after they learned from their issues with RDR and GTA4 still ran slightly worse on PS3 than on 360...
StrongGuy
Member
The fact that Microsoft just decided to copy the PS4 architecture with the Xbox ONE X and XseX is further proof that MS doesn't believe it can out-engineer SONY.
If SONY does end up using HBM2 + DDR4 architecture and it completely outclasses the 2013 architecture in the XseX, you can 100% expect Microsoft to copy that with the XseX 2.
thelastword
Banned
And yet in PS3's case the cell run circles over the XBOX 360 CPU, they just could not put a more powerful GPU in PS3 because most of their budgeting went to Cell, where they thought they would leverage that business beyond it being in consoles......They pushed Bluray when it was expensive to do so, and throughout the gen, PS3 exclusive games showed it's power over XBOX 360....
If Sony only concentrated on a more modest CPU and a more powerful GPU forgetting about Cell and Bluray, it would have launched earlier and would be much stronger than the 360 at a $400 pricepoint…...They would have also sold much more than the Wii too.....
Sony day and date with MS has never released an inferior console, they always push technology and standards more than any other manufacturer in the year they release....All the boasting of MS having the most powerful console as precedence means nothing at all. if OG XBOX launched 1 year and 8 months after PS2, we expect it to be more powerful, if XBONEX launched a year after PRO we expect it to be more powerful.....Yet even then, PS2 had hardware advantages over OG XBOX, it had ports and raw bandwidth that XBOX did not have......PRO had Vega features, CB hardware and 64 Rops which XBONEX did not have...…..Sony is always ahead of the curve in the year they release......That is why these rumors make little sense and comes off as FUD.....
thelastword
Banned
How much did these consoles sell next to the best of PS? It's how you gauge popularity.....They made gaming an accepted hobby for adults, based on the games they released, mature games, lots of variety in genres...…..
NES/N64 vs PS1
Gamecube and Wii vs PS2
Switch vs PS4
StrongGuy
Member
Anyone who thinks SONY will do just fine releasing a 9.2 TF console this year seriously misunderstands why SONY has won the PS1, PS2 and PS4 generation.
A PS5 with 9.2 TF would have done fine if it released Nov 2019. A 9.2 TF PS5 would do poor relative to the PS4 if it released along-side a 12 TF XseX.
A PS5 with 9.2 TF would have done fine if it released Nov 2019. A 9.2 TF PS5 would do poor relative to the PS4 if it released along-side a 12 TF XseX.
SportsFan581
Member
Didn't 360 have a UMA, I thing Nintendo 64 did too. How did anyone steal that idea from Sony? I'm pretty sure MS went with UMA for X1X because it was the best solution, the OG xbox memory setup was never considered optimal by anyone. However, it was probably the only way they could get 8GB at $500 with Kinect along for the ride (it's also UMA setup of sorts).
Jamesie
Neo Member
The solution is surely simple: Wait and see?
Once confirmed we can then all decide on which path to follow but one things for sure and that is that I'm not jumping into anything just yet (probably until 2021) and that is purely because of this: I'm probably just an old git.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
Once confirmed we can then all decide on which path to follow but one things for sure and that is that I'm not jumping into anything just yet (probably until 2021) and that is purely because of this: I'm probably just an old git.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
SmokSmog
Member
In CPU tasks NO, in gpu tasks yes.
Cell was APU with 1 real core, Xbox had 3cores and 6 threads.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
PS3 422 Gflops CPU + GPU
X360 355 Gflops CPU + GPU
Xbox 360 technical specifications - Wikipedia
RSX Reality Synthesizer - Wikipedia
He said GPU...he's not wrong. Why force it into a CPU + GPU discussion? It's well-known PS3 had the better CPU, but the topic at hand was referencing the GPU being weaker. Objectively speaking, it was.
Those systems won because of games and having a plethora of 3rd-party developers supporting them virtually unquestionably. Negating all of that to imply it was just power is ridiculous tbh.
Sony is enough of a proven commodity to release a 9.2TF (perhaps slightly stronger) PS5 against a 12TF XSEX and outdo them in sales as long as they don't mess any other parts of the operation up (pricing, launch lineup, first year lineup, messaging/marketing, distribution, online play, etc.).
They'll have to stay on-point because MS is not going to be making nearly the same mistakes they did with XBO, but Sony has proven before they can overcome tough competition and they still have the mindshare and marketshare advantage. A 9.2TF PS5 at $399 with some heavy hitters out the gate or around the launch period will do very fine with them, especially since it'll have full BC with PS4.
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thelastword
Banned
Most of the guys pushing the 12 vs 9Tf are MS guys/fans...…...Penello, Leadbetter, Windows Central, Tom Warren, Arthur Gies etc.....Surely people should be aware of their track record, based on what they say, what they hype vs the end product or reality.....
This Gif is hilarious, props to Sesame Street and the Fraggle Rock era....
phil_t98
#SonyToo
Most of the budgeting went to the blu ray drive to win the format war which is why it was released a year late
joe_zazen
Member
wooohhh... a bit overdramatic are we?
the PS4 was the first time ever that Sony had the most powerful GPU... how would it be a disaster if they were behind in GPU performance like they were the first 3 generations of PlayStation?
I really don't get the panic by people who think 9.2TF would be such an awful GPU
it is the 9.2tf coming from 36 cu at high clocks that is the issue. it would be very hot and use 50% more energy than a 56 cu 12tf xsx. That would be a disaster.
a 9.2 that was cheaper, cooler, and quieter...AOK by me.
Psykodad
Banned
There was a massive increase in sales when Playstation hit the market, cemented by Playstation 2.
Also, all Playstations except PS3 outsold even the Wii, so it's safe to say that Playstation took the lead in making console gaming as big as it is.
Especially since Nintendo sales were on a steady decline since the NES, until they got lucky with the Wii.
(PS2 as DVD-player and PS3 with Blu-Ray helped a lot)
Nintendo laid the foundation though, so deserves all the recognition.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
HBM2 is out of the question; not just from the Github data leaks but simply the fact it'd be too expensive. For comparison AMD had to pay $160 for 8GB of HBM2 on the Radeon VII two years ago. As well, SK Hynix came out and said that its clients don't mind paying a premium for HBM memory from them. We can assume Samsung is the same, so Sony would still be paying a premium for HBM2 (or HBM2E) from either of them no matter the rate/amounts in which they purchased them.
That's down to a factor of economics and the fact that Samsung and SK Hynix are enjoying the premiums they get off selling HBM memories to big data markets. The closest to any HBM you'd see in PS5 is the reduced cost variant (which is said to have a 512-bit bus per stack and 200 GB/s (probably more like 196 GB/s in practice) bandwidth per stack), but no news has come of that yet (maybe we'll get some at CES, hopefully). The reduced-cost variant is the one being targeted for mass market penetration in commercial consumer electronic products btw.
In other words...might want to cozy up to the idea both are using GDDR6. But maybe we'll get a surprise in one or both using 18Gbps chips (Samsung produces those already with their 16Gbit modules). It's also kind of foolish to imply GDDR's an outdated architecture or memory design; it still has its advantages and what's more many algorithms and compression techniques exist accommodating its capabilities.
IF this is true maybe Microsoft wants to release s low grade and high grade console that lasts the generation. The series x will get cheaper as we go.
And maybe sony wants to leap from again a 9.2TF base model then 2years later a 15ish ? TF pro.
This would be smart as MS would be in the position of having to release another $$$ console to keep up the series x one x (jokes) for example....
And maybe sony wants to leap from again a 9.2TF base model then 2years later a 15ish ? TF pro.
This would be smart as MS would be in the position of having to release another $$$ console to keep up the series x one x (jokes) for example....
Because it is the same company and same chip architecture so you can relate the TF
Otherwise you are 100% right
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01011001
Banned
if you compare the exact same GPU generation TFLOPs are almost linear in performance scaling.
a 2TF RDNA gpu would be almost exactly half as powerful as a 4TF RDNA gpu.
these numbers are pretty exact comparison points if you compare the same architecture
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Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
Xbox has always had the more powerful console with the exception of the Xbox One and that was simply due sacrificing for Kinect.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
God, you people really need to educate yourselves.
PlayStation 5 with a Navi GPU at 9.2 Teraflops = 11.5 GCN Teraflops relative to the Xbox One X i.e. basically double the GPU compute...
Romulus
Member
That's some straight up dominance on playstation's part. The graph puts it in perspective.
Only 4 sony consoles ever, all 4 of them in top 5 in history.
Not only that, ps3 was a disaster and managed a #5 spot. If that would have been handled with half a brain things would have been different. Thats probably the only reason Wii squeezed in.
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Psykodad
Banned
That's why it amazes me that there are some users who are writing "the power of playstation" off as fanboy drivel and fantasy.
Even if PS5 is going to be 9.2Tf, Sony is a force to be reckoned with regardless and Sony knows how to handle the console business.
It's just the reality of the matter.
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Mustaphadamus
Member
While I am in the Xbox camp next gen, just because im getting to old to justify buying two consoles, coupled with the fact I like the xbox live experience over the PS online experience. I must say, the Sony first party games are a force to be reckoned with. I do hope MS buys Project CD or some other such studio who can produce on the level sony has come to be known for, in terms of story telling, and quality of production. Even if the PS is under powered, MS still has to combat with Sony’s software.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Psykodad
Banned
Didn't it turn out to not be datamined and it was just an intern who messed somethinf up?
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Bryank75
Banned
The codenames are all wrong and the data is sparse on many of them... so nobody really knows what is what!
I'd just wait the month and a bit that
OsirisBlack
said to know the real story. There is too much fanboyism going on to really come to any clear conclusion right now.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Well it can't be a "generational" upgrade over the 1X on the GPU side, because the 1X is a pretty new machine and it costs more than any recent console. It's not happening I'm afraid.
So you'll probably enjoy this upcoming generation more if you can shake this idea that a "full" generational upgrade over a pretty new and expensive system like the X1 was ever realistic.
Away from the GPU, in terms of CPU, SSD, and GPU feature set, you're definitely getting a big old upgrade though and there's no need to worry. Even if the PS5 does turn out to be 9.2 TF of RDNA goodness it's going to be a worthy successor and it's absolutely going to be successful.
LittleBusters
Banned
What is this idea that MS copied PS4 architecture for the X? Last I checked the vapor chamber was MS innovation and X runs very quiet compared to the reported PS4 Pro jet engine.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I don't know, I think people are looking at this the wrong way.
I mean if it true, Sony hasn't announced shit and now they know everything about the competition and what the competition thinks they know about them.
Just saying history has habit of repeating it's self.
I mean if it true, Sony hasn't announced shit and now they know everything about the competition and what the competition thinks they know about them.
Just saying history has habit of repeating it's self.
TBiddy
Member
Some delusion from one side of the camp I guess. It's ridiculous to think that Microsoft looked at the PS4 Pro and decided "we're gonna copy that" and released their console about a year later. It's not how shit works.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Wait, who believes this?
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