winjer
Gold Member
Exactly what I have been saying. The hardware is AMD's, the software is Sony.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Digital Foundry - Upscaling Face-Off: PS5 Pro PSSR vs PC DLSS/FSR 3.1 in Ratchet and Clank Rift Apart
- Thread starter Gaiff
- Start date
Exactly what I have been saying. The hardware is AMD's, the software is Sony.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Because the difference is clear and heavily favor's PSSR.
Loxus
Member
This is the same as when everyone was saying the PS5 Pro would use Sony's own RT solution in the Sony RT patent thread.
Now look how that turned out.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
I see how that turned out — PSSR is being compared to the best solution out there and stomps nearly every other solution while doing so.
Loxus
Member
I'm not talking about how good PSSR is, I'm talking about the hardware it's utilizing.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Help me understand what your gripe is then. If this works for Sony, and the games, why does the hardware utilization matter? It's only a waste if it goes in place of something else, is more expensive than it needs to be, or impacts the game(s) in a negative way. Of course, we have no long term data yet, but unless something drastic happens, I don't see a point in calling anything wasteful yet.
Last edited:
hinch7
Member
Wouldn't surprise me if PSSR is a branch of FSR 4.0.Loxus I stand corrected, but it doesn't invalidate Cerny comment since PSSR might use some sort of proprietary tech.
AMD said they've been working on FSR 4 for almost a year. My guess is that it will come with launch of RDNA 4, early next year.
Last edited:
JimboJones
Member
Nvidia has been iterating on DLSS for years with small improvements here and there but at the end of the day there is only so far that these upscalers can go.
Intel's XeSS came out with a near DLSS quality upscaler in their first go too.
Last edited:
winjer
Gold Member
My fear is that AMD is planning to pull a stunt like Nvidia, and make FSR4 exclusive for RDNA4.
winjer
Gold Member
Could be some flaw with the implementation of the reactive mask.
Well it looks like his green eyes are bleeding into his helmet. And it also looks like everything he s flowing in the reflections.
hinch7
Member
They could do an Intel and have the best quality version for RDNA 4 and beyond. And launch a lesser version like XeSS dp4a for older RDNA cards.
If they made it propritary that would be lame. But at the same time, if they want to stay competitive they kind of have to drop support for legacy hardware. Especially if they want to go big with RDNA 5/UDNA
Last edited:
Loxus
Member
I guess you haven't been paying attention.
AMD plans to harness the power of AI to transform gaming with its next-gen GPUs
In a recent interview with the Japanese gaming website 4gamer, the AMD execs detailed some of what we can expect from RDNA 4. Naturally, front and center was confirmation that we’ll be seeing the second iteration of Team Red’s AI Accelerator cores (similar to Nvidia’s Tensor cores), which were first introduced in the current-gen RDNA 3 GPUs.
AMD plans for FSR4 to be fully AI-based — designed to improve quality and maximize power efficiency
What's particularly interesting is that FSR4 will move to being fully AI-based, and it has already been in development for nearly a year.
Crispy Gamer
Member
But if PlayStation Senior Principal Product Manager Toshi Aoki is to be believed, the PS5 Pro has been in the works longer than anyone could have guessed, revealing that it had been under discussion even before the original PS5 was released in 2020.
"We started discussing it before the PS5 actually came out...because the PS5 specs were already locked in. We were ready to launch and everything. [...] We knew, of course, as you mentioned, technologies evolve every year," Aoki explains, saying that PlayStation "can't really stop" when it comes to technological innovation.
Speaking with IGN, he talked about some of the technology advancements that were not yet available when the base PS5 was still under development.
"I think it's more from the technological point of view of... Even the AI upscaling, it's not easy...it takes time to get there...
More from the article ...look guys AMD was way behind it looks like Sony led the charge with this AI design and had AMD help create it it's probably why AMD keeps crediting Microsoft with its AI partnership in their latest conference with zero mention of Sony. They practically told on themselves by saying they started going fully AI based just last year while Aoki is telling everyone Sony started at least 4 years ago.
"We started discussing it before the PS5 actually came out...because the PS5 specs were already locked in. We were ready to launch and everything. [...] We knew, of course, as you mentioned, technologies evolve every year," Aoki explains, saying that PlayStation "can't really stop" when it comes to technological innovation.
Speaking with IGN, he talked about some of the technology advancements that were not yet available when the base PS5 was still under development.
"I think it's more from the technological point of view of... Even the AI upscaling, it's not easy...it takes time to get there...
More from the article ...look guys AMD was way behind it looks like Sony led the charge with this AI design and had AMD help create it it's probably why AMD keeps crediting Microsoft with its AI partnership in their latest conference with zero mention of Sony. They practically told on themselves by saying they started going fully AI based just last year while Aoki is telling everyone Sony started at least 4 years ago.
PaintTinJr
Member
I think they are more likely to make it open source still to avoid lawsuits of infringement lawsuits and leave it free to use on Nvidia/Intel compute with a 1/2 or 1/4 throughput of RDNA4 per teraflop, and free on RDNA3 or higher...
then maybe do a paid licensed version via steam that runs on the Tensor/Xe ME Cores that leaves all the regular compute on table on Nvida/Intel for the game, giving them a means to sell to all by either hardware or software, and still get everyone to use it by being platform agnostic.
MisterXDTV
Member
It's probably the other way around.
Sony took the matter in their own hands because AMD was too far behind...
Last edited:
Loxus
Member
Your reading it as if Aoki is saying the chip for the PS5 Pro was designed 4 years ago, which isn't the case.
It's the discussion of the design of the PS5 Pro that started 4 years ago.
PS5 Pro chip A0 and B0 was only finalize last year.
EXCLUSIVE – THE FULL DEVELOPMENT TIMELINE OF THE PLAYSTATION 5 PRO
The PlayStation 5 Pro took 31 months to develop from start to release.
So that means Sony and AMD were working on PSSR and FSR4 during the same time frame. Most likely another collaboration.
AMD plans for FSR4 to be fully AI-based — designed to improve quality and maximize power efficiency
Because FSR2 and FSR3 were analytical based generation. It was filter based. Now, we did that because we wanted something with a very fast time to market. What I told the team was, "Guys, that's not where the future is going." So we completely pivoted the team about 9-12 months ago to go AI based.
Crispy Gamer
Member
Yes under discussion means R&D then full development started in 2022 I think we should take him at his word, surely you don't believe they just decided to tact on PSSR around the same time AMD decided they're going AI based 9-12 months ago?Your reading it as if Aoki is saying the chip for the PS5 Pro was designed 4 years ago, which isn't the case.
It's the discussion of the design of the PS5 Pro that started 4 years ago.
PS5 Pro chip A0 and B0 was only finalize last year.
EXCLUSIVE – THE FULL DEVELOPMENT TIMELINE OF THE PLAYSTATION 5 PRO
The PlayStation 5 Pro took 31 months to develop from start to release.
So that means Sony and AMD were working on PSSR and FSR4 during the same time frame. Most likely another collaboration.
AMD plans for FSR4 to be fully AI-based — designed to improve quality and maximize power efficiency
Because FSR2 and FSR3 were analytical based generation. It was filter based. Now, we did that because we wanted something with a very fast time to market. What I told the team was, "Guys, that's not where the future is going." So we completely pivoted the team about 9-12 months ago to go AI based.
Loxus
Member
This tweet from Kepler holds a lot of weight.
And then we have Mark Cerny saying this.
"But that feature set is malleable, which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes.
So collaboration is born."
This can't be that hard to understand.
sachos
Member
Thanks for making this gifs man. This to me shows that TLoU2 is sliiiightly oversharpened for my liking and Ratchet is sliiightly undersharpened lol. I would love a sharpening slider in both. You can see some white halo artifact in foliage.
PSSR blurry? hell no
It even beats THE native 4K
The foliage looks absolutely incredible
Mr.Phoenix
Member
All this nonsense...
PSSR is just Sony's name for what FSR4 will be. They would use the same hardware and tech to achieve the exact same thing. There is a high likelihood that FSR4 will even be better and improve in ways sony may not bother implementing until the PS6.
Sony and AMD have a collaborative arrangement. Dont know what the issue is.
PSSR is just Sony's name for what FSR4 will be. They would use the same hardware and tech to achieve the exact same thing. There is a high likelihood that FSR4 will even be better and improve in ways sony may not bother implementing until the PS6.
Sony and AMD have a collaborative arrangement. Dont know what the issue is.
diffusionx
Gold Member
no sliders. These are console game, let the devs decide how they feel their game is best portrayed. If anything I would rather see performance and fidelity disappear entirely.
ChiefDada
Member
Lol, no. PSSR will be PSSR, and FSR 4 will be FSR 4. Sony has been very clear when they utilize AMD technology vs when they go with their own.
Like you, I also don't know what the issue is.
Tchu-Espresso
likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Very impressive. Thanks for the post.
PSSR blurry? hell no
It even beats THE native 4K
The foliage looks absolutely incredible
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Willing bet that both perform identically?
HRK69
Gold Member
ap_puff
Banned
knowing AMD, I'd take that bet 10 out of 10 times lmao
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I don't think it will. Why would Sony go through the trouble of making their own AI/ML techniques if AMD had something available?
Does AMD charge devs extra or something for using their FSR tech?
Last edited:
Unknown Soldier
Member
I mean, the "stunt" Nvidia pulled was creating new hardware and then designing new software to work on the new hardware
Which is probably why FSR4/PSSR will indeed be exclusive to RDNA4 because previous generation RDNA's literally won't have the necessary hardware
Last edited:
PaintTinJr
Member
Surely the nonsense is that the training is the most significant part, no? And going by the IGN interview PlayStation's PSSR is specifically trained on PlayStation's games in which AMD have a mere fraction of from PC ports, and even of those just a subsection that match visual settings to PlayStation versions running at 16K for training. So why would AMD be the lead on this software solution? And if they only started work on FSR4 9-12months ago, and yet our own reliable HeisenbergFX4 had eyes on finished boxed Pro's around the same time.
Sony have been doing ML AI image training and reconstruction long before even Nvidia. with working ML AI TV chips in actual TVs back in 2013/2014.
Last edited:
PaintTinJr
Member
RDNA3 silicon can do DUAL issue at FP16, and FP8, so could run with equal efficiency, and even if the others ran at half speed on slower hardware it is highly unlikely AMD would cut them off from using the feature IMO.
TheRedRiders
Member
Judging by Cerny's comments, in which he mentioned more than once that the Pro's ML solution was "custom", and we know Cerny is very deliberate with his wording. To what extent it will be custom is completely unknown at the moment and we'll have to wait for more information.
However as other posters have mentioned, it's likely Sony and AMD's efforts were collaborative so we may see a lot of similarities between PSSR and FSR 4.
Personally I think it's PSSR influencing FSR 4 and not the other way around.
However as other posters have mentioned, it's likely Sony and AMD's efforts were collaborative so we may see a lot of similarities between PSSR and FSR 4.
Personally I think it's PSSR influencing FSR 4 and not the other way around.
Crispy Gamer
Member
Bingo! Sony is very deliberate when choosing their words just look how they're talking about RT they took zero credit for the design vs how they're talking about the AI block on the GPU.
PlayStation 5 Pro Hands-On First Look: Here's What I Learned
Exclusive: I checked out the new console upgrade, coming Nov. 5 for $700, and played a bunch of games. Here's who might appreciate the new graphics boosts the most.
www.cnet.com
PS5 Pro uses the new advanced [ray tracing] feature sets that AMD created as the next step in their roadmap architecture," Cerny told me. "But if you look around, there are no other AMD GPUs that use it yet. We motivated the development, and I'm very happy we did so -- the response from the developers has been extraordinarily great."
Loxus
Member
He didn't say anything about the AI block, he only said they added custom hardware for machine learning and an AI Library call PSSR.Bingo! Sony is very deliberate when choosing their words just look how they're talking about RT they took zero credit for the design vs how they're talking about the AI block on the GPU.
PlayStation 5 Pro Hands-On First Look: Here's What I Learned
Exclusive: I checked out the new console upgrade, coming Nov. 5 for $700, and played a bunch of games. Here's who might appreciate the new graphics boosts the most.
PS5 Pro uses the new advanced [ray tracing] feature sets that AMD created as the next step in their roadmap architecture," Cerny told me. "But if you look around, there are no other AMD GPUs that use it yet. We motivated the development, and I'm very happy we did so -- the response from the developers has been extraordinarily great."
PSSR is most likely Playstation's version of FSR4 for their API, in which they can update at their own time instead of waiting for AMD to do any updates.
If that custom hardware for machine learning was their own solution, Mark Cerny would of when in to more details about it.
How quickly the PS5 Pro was made pretty much confirm they didn't create their own solution for AI upscaling. They're most likely using RDNA4 AI Accelerators. Which AMD themselves states is similar to the Tensor Cores.
winjer
Gold Member
Nvidia's frame generation didn't need special tensor cores. It was an artificial imposition to have it exclusive to Ada.
And AMD is doing similar things. RDNA2 doesn't support HAGS, only RDNA3. And Antilag+ was meat only for RDNA3.
For FSR4, if AMD wants to do the right thing, they will do it like Intel. One path for DP4A and one path for WMAA.
Senua
Member
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
He didn't say anything about the AI block, he only said they added custom hardware for machine learning and an AI Library call PSSR.
PSSR is most likely Playstation's version of FSR4 for their API, in which they can update at their own time instead of waiting for AMD to do any updates.
If that custom hardware for machine learning was their own solution, Mark Cerny would of when in to more details about it.
How quickly the PS5 Pro was made pretty much confirm they didn't create their own solution for AI upscaling. They're most likely using RDNA4 AI Accelerators. Which AMD themselves states is similar to the Tensor Cores.
Tbf, they can't announce FSR 4 before AMD anyway so I think you are on the money here.
Using their own custom branch of amds next gen solution so they can update it when they want. Based on compiled data from playstation titles.
I think it will evolve really well.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Last edited:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
He is too humble… ?
CloudShiner
Member
Because you don't upset your vital business partners unnecessarily, and definitely not in public utterances. May be different behind closed doors.
SKYF@ll
Member
Sony MR. Aoki (Senior Principal Product Manager/Product Planning at SIE)
" Although this was a joint development with AMD, we spoke with the gaming team, led by Mark Cerny, and decided on the algorithms and hardware we should design.
We went through a lot of trial and error with both AMD and the gaming team as we developed it. "
https://www.famitsu.com/article/202409/18848
" Although this was a joint development with AMD, we spoke with the gaming team, led by Mark Cerny, and decided on the algorithms and hardware we should design.
We went through a lot of trial and error with both AMD and the gaming team as we developed it. "
https://www.famitsu.com/article/202409/18848
TheRedRiders
Member
Crispy Gamer
Member
I can flip it on you and ask why didn't Cerny say PS5 Pro uses the new ML hardware block on the GPU a feature set that AMD created as the next step in their roadmap architecture. He clearly said that for Ray Tracing...the bottom line is Aoki said it's a custom block co-developed with AMD both companies put their expertise together to create a DLSS and Xess type solution and like you said Mark Cerny stated "But that feature set is malleable, which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes. So collaboration is born."
PSSR was a PlayStation need that will be part of AMD's roadmap architecture eventually, that's a fact a never disagreed with the point I was trying to make is Sony didn't just pluck this design from AMD's roadmap.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
‘ppreciate this!
Last edited:
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Why are you Sony guys now internally fighting.
It's pc vs playstation and now ps vs ps.
The tech looks good. You should all be happy instead of fighting about semantics in my opinion.
I think everyone will get their answer once amd announces their new gpus.
It's pc vs playstation and now ps vs ps.
The tech looks good. You should all be happy instead of fighting about semantics in my opinion.
I think everyone will get their answer once amd announces their new gpus.
