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Doctor Who |OT| Pre-Series 8 Discussion - He's A-Coming

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Pluto

Member
You're not thinking about it. The goal is to get them into season 5. Blink sets up Weeping Angels and Silence sets up River Song (for better or worse).
Why would you want to get people into season 5? The Moffat era is pretty awful imo, as awesome as his episodes during the RTD years were, most of his ideas fell flat when he took over the show.

I always suggest to start with series 1, warts and all, it's ultimately worth it, the RTD years were really special, even some not so great episodes were part of spectacular seasons and every season's arc was woven into the early episodes subtly. Moffat lost all subtlety, the audience got cracks, "dead for real" (as if anyone believed that for a second), pregnant/not pregnant, the impossible girl etc. shoved into their faces every episode. He ruined River by overusing her, he kept Amy and Rory for too long and then threw the perfect way for them to leave the show away and replaced with a "tragic" ending (that made no sense whatsoever) in the last 5 minutes of their final episode.

Moffat is too in love with his timey wimey stuff to see that sometimes less is more, Amy and Rory saying "We can't do this anymore" would have been perfect and believable (and was actually set up during their final series) but noooooo, it had to be another timey wimey thing.

The Moffat era is one disappointment after the other, I really hope the BBC finally fires him if he doesn't leave on his own.
 
Bits and pieces of series 8 news from DWM- most notably that episode 9, the
TARDIS shrinking
episode, has been written by Jamie Mathieson, who also writes episode 8. Moffat also teases bits of info about
the Time Lords, and a storyline based around Capaldi's appearance..
.
Moffat said:
Oh, those slippery Time Lords. I wonder where they'll pop up next...
Where do [the Doctor's] faces come from? Why do they have laughter lines, when it's a face that hasn't laughed yet? Whose laughter was that?

There's a fun interview with Dan Starkey (Strax) and Neve McIntosh (Vastra) which shows them off as absolutely massive Doctor Who nerds- they got into a heated debate with Capaldi onset about whether the Cybermen in Moffat's era are from Mondas or Telos, for example. The issue also has part one of a cool little comic strip starring the Paternoster Gang.
 

8bit

Knows the Score
There's a fun interview with Dan Starkey (Strax) and Neve McIntosh (Vastra) which shows them off as absolutely massive Doctor Who nerds- they got into a heated debate with Capaldi onset about whether the Cybermen in Moffat's era are from Mondas or Telos, for example. The issue also has part one of a cool little comic strip starring the Paternoster Gang.

That's great!
 

mclem

Member
There's a fun interview with Dan Starkey (Strax) and Neve McIntosh (Vastra) which shows them off as absolutely massive Doctor Who nerds- they got into a heated debate with Capaldi onset about whether the Cybermen in Moffat's era are from Mondas or Telos, for example.

Now I want a DVD extra of just those three shooting shit about the classic series.

Not sure if I'd prefer it in or out of character!
 
There's always Gallifrey Base. (Skips away, chucking to self.)

Gallifrey Base's spoiler section is now entirely made up of people trying to bullshit each other. The old spoiler hounds have lost their sources, people are seeing less on location, and the production's just generally been tightened up after the debacle with The Time of the Doctor last year. It's good for conserving surprises, but fucking hell has it ever strangled discussion on that forum.

August 23rd looks very likely.

It does, although the fact that next month's DWM features a preview of the new series does give me pause. The magazine only traditionally does that when an episode falls within that issue's print run, but the next issue's going to be taken off sale on August 20th, which would suggest a slightly earlier start.
 
Aug 30th. They'll probably show a trailer at comicon and release it not long after.

I wouldn't bet on their being a Comic-Con appearance, personally. They're still going to be filming the new series, and the World Tour is happening a few weeks later. I daresay that we're going to be getting something from that instead.
 
If anyone wants to keep up with what spoilers we do have, this is a decent resource. There's some outdated or incorrect info, and it's mainly focused on set reports, but it's fairly comprehensive.
 
Because it's by far the show's single best year.

On the other hand, I'd say that Series 6 is arguably the worst average quality (it has a few corkers and a whole lot of crap, IMO, whereas the other bad Series' have a consistent, but lower quality), whereas if you start in Series 1 the show gets better year on year every year.
 

V_Arnold

Member
The Moffat era is one disappointment after the other, I really hope the BBC finally fires him if he doesn't leave on his own.

Looking at viewership numbers and the show's popularity in the US, it does not look like he is in any particular danger of getting fired.
 
There's a fun interview with Dan Starkey (Strax) and Neve McIntosh (Vastra) which shows them off as absolutely massive Doctor Who nerds- they got into a heated debate with Capaldi onset about whether the Cybermen in Moffat's era are from Mondas or Telos, for example.

They're from Pete's World. Step it up, casuals.
 

Dalek

Member
Looking at viewership numbers and the show's popularity in the US, it does not look like he is in any particular danger of getting fired.

He sells a lot of Sonic Screwdrivers.

Anecdotal evidence I know-but the show has never been more popular in America. I took my daughter to the country fair this weekend here in the Bay Area, and I saw no less than 4 people walking around with various Doctor Who shirts.
 

Goldrush

Member
Could never get people on the show during RTD years. The show was pure cheese, but Moffat was able to repackage it as fantasy. Definitely start with Season 5.

As an odd alternative, maybe the "Christmas Carol" episode. Never tried introducing someone with it myself, but it seems like it would work very well as an introduction. It's a great introduction to the Doctor and the mystique of time travel, yet wrapped in a familiar story outline with little baggage.
 

Pluto

Member
Looking at viewership numbers and the show's popularity in the US, it does not look like he is in any particular danger of getting fired.
I don't see how viewership numbers and popularity in the US mean Moffat's job is safe, he's not the be all end all of Doctor Who writers, if the BBC wants him gone they'll kick him out the door, I doubt that would affect the show's popularity much.
 

Dalek

Member
Could never get people on the show during RTD years. The show was pure cheese, but Moffat was able to repackage it as fantasy. Definitely start with Season 5.

As an odd alternative, maybe the "Christmas Carol" episode. Never tried introducing someone with it myself, but it seems like it would work very well as an introduction. It's a great introduction to the Doctor and the mystique of time travel, yet wrapped in a familiar story outline with little baggage.

Actually that's another great choice. The only thing that's odd is it isn't on Netflix for some reason. But, yeah, A+ episode.
 
As a long time Doctor Who fan, it's annoying to realise the guy who runs Doctor Who makes the best British TV show and it's not Doctor Who.

That said, I've seen a few shows destroyed by a new producer come in to a long running series and shit all over the floor just to put their own stamp on it or because they didn't 'get' it. Yes, there could be a far worse producer than Moffat.
Bergerac, Space 1999, original Star Trek, Community
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
I don't see how viewership numbers and popularity in the US mean Moffat's job is safe, he's not the be all end all of Doctor Who writers, if the BBC wants him gone they'll kick him out the door, I doubt that would affect the show's popularity much.

Why would the BBC kick him out, though? What's the benefit to them?
 

Pluto

Member
Why would the BBC kick him out, though? What's the benefit to them?
Scripts coming in on time for example, there have been many stories that he's constantly late and most of his episodes feel like they filmed the second draft and not a polished script. There's such a big difference in quality between his work under Davies and his recent stuff that I'm convinced it's true. The show has never reached the highs it had under Davies since series 5.
 
Scripts coming in on time for example, there have been many stories that he's constantly late and most of his episodes feel like they filmed the second draft and not a polished script. There's such a big difference in quality between his work under Davies and his recent stuff that I'm convinced it's true. The show has never reached the highs it had under Davies since series 5.

I totally agree with your general message of "fuck Moffat", but still, the viewership is there, so why would the BBC kick him out?
 

V_Arnold

Member
I totally agree with your general message of "fuck Moffat", but still, the viewership is there, so why would the BBC kick him out?

His angle seems to be "why should not the BBC kick him out". Which is truly not happening (they are just wrapping up S8 as we speak), so....
 
Doctor Who just had its most watched episode ever last year, written by Moffat. Moffat showruns two of the BBC's most popular and critically acclaimed shows. Those shows also bring in huge amounts of profit for BBC Worldwide, in terms of both resale value and merchandise. Doctor Who is one of the BBC's Big Four, with Top Gear, Strictly Come Dancing and the BBC's prestigious nature documentaries alongside it.

Moffat's got the job for as long as he wants it. He mentions in DWM this month that he's deep in preparation for series 9, so I really would get used to it if I were you.
 
I read your post and thought it was a great quote until I realized it applies to any action hero ever.

Eh, a lot of action heroes run towards danger, sure, but they're primarily really good at inflicting pain and violence as their means of solving problems - they win because they're better at shooting or punching than the bad guys are, and that's not that interesting to me. The Doctor (like Superman, Batman, Spiderman, and others) inspires others by his example to do good, to be the best possible versions of themselves in the face of almost certain death. That's pretty cool.

I can see how it seems that way though, and a big part of why that scene is so good is the emotion with which Piper delivers that line.
 

Dalek

Member
Doctor Who just had its most watched episode ever last year, written by Moffat. Moffat showruns two of the BBC's most popular and critically acclaimed shows. Those shows also bring in huge amounts of profit for BBC Worldwide, in terms of both resale value and merchandise. Doctor Who is one of the BBC's Big Four, with Top Gear, Strictly Come Dancing and the BBC's prestigious nature documentaries alongside it.

Moffat's got the job for as long as he wants it. He mentions in DWM this month that he's deep in preparation for series 9, so I really would get used to it if I were you.

tumblr_lzutqhf5031qf1qhm.gif
 

Vibranium

Banned
Can we stop with the Moffat dislike/discussion please, he at least seems like a really nice guy who loves Dr. Who like all of us. He's going to be back for Series 9, and that's great. Maybe he has taken some criticism to heart, who knows?

Showrunners come and go, just enjoy the time you have. At least we're not in Colin Baker's era (poor Colin, saddled with all that crap).
 

Pluto

Member
I totally agree with your general message of "fuck Moffat", but still, the viewership is there, so why would the BBC kick him out?
Because they're funded by a tax or whatever, they shouldn't blindly follow ratings. Of course they have to to some degree but a show runner shouldn't be kept around just because the audience is there even if the quality suffers.

Doctor Who just had its most watched episode ever last year, written by Moffat. Moffat showruns two of the BBC's most popular and critically acclaimed shows.
I think the 50th anniversary, the promotion, hype and Tennant and Billie Piper returning had as much if not more to do to do with the episode's success than Moffat's writing.

Moffat's got the job for as long as he wants it. He mentions in DWM this month that he's deep in preparation for series 9, so I really would get used to it if I were you.
Fuck my life, that's awful. I hope he at least gets rid of Clara, I don't like her, bring in another Donna or Rory type companion.

The worst thing about this is that I don't even dislike all of Moffat's writing, his episodes of the RTD era were among the highlights of their respective seasons, I know he can do great things, it just hasn't happened since he took over the show.
 

Vibranium

Banned
Well I edited my thoughts since "hate" is a strong word. But it does get tiring talking about this.

I kind of like Clara, but I do really miss Donna for sure. A more fiery companion would be wonderful. Actually, after watching the 2nd Doctor with Jamie (even though there was pretty much always another female traveler) I think I'd love him to just travel with a guy companion for awhile, and form a bromance.
 

Blader

Member
On the other hand, I'd say that Series 6 is arguably the worst average quality (it has a few corkers and a whole lot of crap, IMO, whereas the other bad Series' have a consistent, but lower quality), whereas if you start in Series 1 the show gets better year on year every year.

I was pretty disappointed with S6 the first time I went through it but warmed up to it a lot on rewatch. I'd say it's tied with S4 as my second favorite year of the show. The Wedding of River Song is one of Moffat's worst scripts, though, and there are a few episodes in there that are mediocre/forgettable (Night Terrors? I've seen it twice and still can't recall a damn thing about it).

I agree that RTD's era got better on a year-over-year basis, but given how low of a bar it started from -- and how not-that-highly it was raised by the end -- I don't think that's saying a whole lot.

Scripts coming in on time for example, there have been many stories that he's constantly late and most of his episodes feel like they filmed the second draft and not a polished script. There's such a big difference in quality between his work under Davies and his recent stuff that I'm convinced it's true. The show has never reached the highs it had under Davies since series 5.

yes, Moffat's run has been a significant downgrade from the tight ship that RTD ran, where scripts were always delivered in a timely manner, with final polished drafts absolutely ready to go at a moment's notice, and absolutely no scheduling or organizational problems anywhere whatsoever, nope none at all.
 
Because they're funded by a tax or whatever, they shouldn't blindly follow ratings. Of course they have to to some degree but a show runner shouldn't be kept around just because the audience is there even if the quality suffers.

But...to an extent they should. It's a pretty trustworthy representation of an audience's interest in a TV show. As are iPlayer figures etc which are constantly on the rise.

This is a pointless argument anyway. If you ask Joe Public who was in charge of Doctor Who or whether they preferred Season 4 or Season 5, they wouldn't have a clue. If anything, the metric most people go by is their interest in Doctors. You can guarantee that if they had cast a total failure of an actor instead of Capaldi then viewer's interest would plummet a lot more quickly than any changes to behind the scenes stuff.

There's nothing wrong with not liking any one era of the show, but trying to paint it as some kind of 'failure' or that Moffat is bad at his job is disingenuous. Moffat's doing fine (not amazing, mind you), and you just don't happen to enjoy his episodes. Simple as.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Because they're funded by a tax or whatever, they shouldn't blindly follow ratings. Of course they have to to some degree but a show runner shouldn't be kept around just because the audience is there even if the quality suffers.
You are still looking at this the wrong way.

You act like the BBC desperately wants to get rid of Moffat but gosh darnit there are all these annoying reasons chaining them so they have to "keep him around". Really, that's just your hangup with Moffat, and it's not about whether the reasons to keep him around are strong enough; it's that there's really no good reason to boot him.
 

Blader

Member
The only reason I can think of why BBC would want to fire Moffat is if his scheduling issues ended up *severely* problematic for at least Who, if not both Who and Sherlock. Barring that, though, Moffat likely has the job as long as he wants it. Who has never been more popular, Sherlock is a huge success, and the BBC clearly doesn't mind (or at least doesn't mind enough) about working around his personality as long as he delivers -- which he clearly is.
 

Boem

Member
I still maintain that season 6 is far better than people remember. The biggest problem of that season (apart from the split which was very annoying the time) is the ham-fisted River Song mystery, which dragged along, wasn't delivered that well outside of the set-up in the opening episodes and got on people's nerves a bit. I really like Moffat, but he doesn't do the long-term mystery well. I approach them differently to most people though, I don't even try to guess what they might be. Like the Clara-mystery (which was actually the most annoying of the bunch, because he didn't create a character first and gave her interesting things to do after that, he started with some weird plot thing that sounds cool on paper but is really annoying if you can't know where it's going). River Song is full of that too, and after we've learned pretty much everything about her the character just isn't that interesting anymore. Season 6 is pretty much the River Song season, and I think that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It's a bit messy, and a bit all over the place. But it still contains a lot of episodes that I would count among Matt Smith's best - especially the Silence two-parter in America, the Doctor's Wife(!), The Girl Who Waited, and I even really like A Good Man Goes to War, Let's Kill Hitler and The Wedding of River Song. I'd rate most of those episodes higher than anything that came out of the Eccleston/Tennant years.

I think I have a bit of a higher tolerance for those last three than most people because I don't really care about the mysteries and the overarching plot - I just take each episode as it comes. I think most people guessed that River Song was
Amy's daughter
at the time, and that she was
in the spacesuit
, but I just see those mysteries as something that kids should be able to figure out. It's not the most important part of the show, although Moffat often makes it seem like it is. For me it's always more about the story that's told in a single episode, rather than trying to map out all the clues. A big complaint at the time was that the show got too confusing, but it's really not that hard if you just pay attention to what's happening. When someone sets up a mystery you often know that you're not going to get the answer to that right there and then - all you need to know is that there's something mysterious going on with a certain character and that they'll get back to that at some point. Trying to tie it all together while you're watching an episode just makes you lose focus of the story that they're trying to tell in that episode at the time - and I think that's the most annoying thing about Moffat's run. When you just let the show be the show and allow the story to tell itself it all becomes much more enjoyable. That's why I try to avoid most spoilers and why I don't even watch the 'Next Time' trailers at the end of an episode.

There's some great moments in those season 6 episodes (the "we seem to be defending ourselves" line when Churchill and the Doctor realize they've been fighting the Silence all this time is one of my favorite moments of the show - very Douglas Addams). In fact, out of all the modern seasons, season 6 feels the most like it's a tribute to Douglas Addams and his work on Tom Baker-Who and Hitchhikers. That's brings a lot of weirdness with it, but I kinda like that.

Season 5 was far more consistent tonally and in quality. I think season 6 had two episodes that I think are just bad - Curse of the Black Spot and Closing Time. The Rebel Flesh-two parter, Night Terrors and The God Complex didn't make much of an impression on me. I even like A Christmas Carol - still the only good christmas episode the modern show has done. But the other episodes I mentioned earlier really do lift it to another level. It's still riding on that creative burst of energy the show got with season 5 - season 7 just devolved into a pale imitation of itself - the best episodes of that season where still very boring and by-the-books. Nothing stood out to me in that season.

I hope the next season gets another jolt, and that they start taking risks again. I like the actor, so I'll keep an open mind.
 
I love Moffat and his run has ushered in a new level of popularity throughout the world. He isn't without faults but I will be worried for the direction of the show when he leaves. Let's get some positive feelings flowing!



If I had my way it would be Gatiss who got booted. Most of his episodes have been my most disliked episodes of the new series.

I agree that RTD's era got better on a year-over-year basis, but given how low of a bar it started from -- and how not-that-highly it was raised by the end -- I don't think that's saying a whole lot.

yes, Moffat's run has been a significant downgrade from the tight ship that RTD ran, where scripts were always delivered in a timely manner, with final polished drafts absolutely ready to go at a moment's notice, and absolutely no scheduling or organizational problems anywhere whatsoever, nope none at all.

Haha, pretty much in full agreement with these, even though I enjoy and own RTD's full run.
 
The problem with replacing Moffat is that there is no clear successor to him. Moffat will not be pushed out for reasons listed above, but honestly, Moffat HAS to be thinking of who to train up as a showrunner at this point.
 

Boem

Member
The problem with replacing Moffat is that there is no clear successor to him. Moffat will not be pushed out for reasons listed above, but honestly, Moffat HAS to be thinking of who to train up as a showrunner at this point.

This is very true. I love Moffat, but the show is always about change, so it has to happen sooner or later. There's just no one that jumps out at this point. I really, really hope it won't be Mark Gatiss. But it'll probably be him I guess, given the amount of work he has done on Who (including novels and audio plays) and the succes of Sherlock. Not a fan of his writing myself. Too safe.
 

Dalek

Member
I still maintain that season 6 is far better than people remember. The biggest problem of that season (apart from the split which was very annoying the time) is the ham-fisted River Song mystery, which dragged along, wasn't delivered that well outside of the set-up in the opening episodes and got on people's nerves a bit. I really like Moffat, but he doesn't do the long-term mystery well. I approach them differently to most people though, I don't even try to guess what they might be. Like the Clara-mystery (which was actually the most annoying of the bunch, because he didn't create a character first and gave her interesting things to do after that, he started with some weird plot thing that sounds cool on paper but is really annoying if you can't know where it's going). River Song is full of that too, and after we've learned pretty much everything about her the character just isn't that interesting anymore. Season 6 is pretty much the River Song season, and I think that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. It's a bit messy, and a bit all over the place. But it still contains a lot of episodes that I would count among Matt Smith's best - especially the Silence two-parter in America, the Doctor's Wife(!), The Girl Who Waited, and I even really like A Good Man Goes to War, Let's Kill Hitler and The Wedding of River Song. I'd rate most of those episodes higher than anything that came out of the Eccleston/Tennant years.

I think I have a bit of a higher tolerance for those last three than most people because I don't really care about the mysteries and the overarching plot - I just take each episode as it comes. I think most people guessed that River Song was
Amy's daughter
at the time, and that she was
in the spacesuit
, but I just see those mysteries as something that kids should be able to figure out. It's not the most important part of the show, although Moffat often makes it seem like it is. For me it's always more about the story that's told in a single episode, rather than trying to map out all the clues. A big complaint at the time was that the show got too confusing, but it's really not that hard if you just pay attention to what's happening. When someone sets up a mystery you often know that you're not going to get the answer to that right there and then - all you need to know is that there's something mysterious going on with a certain character and that they'll get back to that at some point. Trying to tie it all together while you're watching an episode just makes you lose focus of the story that they're trying to tell in that episode at the time - and I think that's the most annoying thing about Moffat's run. When you just let the show be the show and allow the story to tell itself it all becomes much more enjoyable. That's why I try to avoid most spoilers and why I don't even watch the 'Next Time' trailers at the end of an episode.

There's some great moments in those season 6 episodes (the "we seem to be defending ourselves" line when Churchill and the Doctor realize they've been fighting the Silence all this time is one of my favorite moments of the show - very Douglas Addams). In fact, out of all the modern seasons, season 6 feels the most like it's a tribute to Douglas Addams and his work on Tom Baker-Who and Hitchhikers. That's brings a lot of weirdness with it, but I kinda like that.

Season 5 was far more consistent tonally and in quality. I think season 6 had two episodes that I think are just bad - Curse of the Black Spot and Closing Time. The Rebel Flesh-two parter, Night Terrors and The God Complex didn't make much of an impression on me. I even like A Christmas Carol - still the only good christmas episode the modern show has done. But the other episodes I mentioned earlier really do lift it to another level. It's still riding on that creative burst of energy the show got with season 5 - season 7 just devolved into a pale imitation of itself - the best episodes of that season where still very boring and by-the-books. Nothing stood out to me in that season.

I hope the next season gets another jolt, and that they start taking risks again. I like the actor, so I'll keep an open mind.

I agree, brother. I don't understand the hate for S6-other than maybe people hating the focus on River. The only true bad episode in my mind was Curse of the Black Spot. (Well yeah you're right-Closing Time is pretty bad. I like the last couple of minutes thought. But the cyberman plot is just ridiculous)
 
I agree, brother. I don't understand the hate for S6-other than maybe people hating the focus on River. The only true bad episode in my mind was Curse of the Black Spot. (Well yeah you're right-Closing Time is pretty bad. I like the last couple of minutes thought. But the cyberman plot is just ridiculous)
Season 6 had The Doctors Wife, its easily up there with all time greatest seasons just for that.
 
The Moffat ones? Are you sure? No Cybus logo.

I believe the repopulation of Cybermen throughtout the universe was driven primarily by Cybus Cybermen, after the Doctor throws them god knows where in The Next Doctor. Next time we see them, they're a full-on legion, with motherships and the lot, still rocking that Cybus look. They eventually ditched the logo and upgraded to the current OP version, but it all started with Pete's World.

Any Mondas or Telos Cyber forces would just be assimilated.
 
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