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[FunkMiller]

And does that offend you?

There's plenty of played out tropes in many games. Why do we give a pass to Metaphor? Or Elden Ring? If the thought of playing a girl boss is that offensive to you - ignore it and move on.

I frankly don't care what the gender is of the person I'm playing, I care more about the quality of the game overall.

Doesn't offend me in the slightest. But from a marketing, publicity, and business angle, I do have to question the wisdom of it.

 

[ANoa]

When the reason you are critical of ND is because a protagonist is a female with a shaved head, you've lost the plot. And that's mostly what the discussion is because that's literally all we have to go by.

Because it's that bad of a character design. They want to play a game that has that talent and budget but don't want to spend 30 hours playing as another one of Druckmann's fetishes.

Some of you need to stop getting angry and offended everytime someone is critical of your favorite company. It's not a healthy way to live.

 

[EDMIX]

Doesn't offend me in the slightest. But from a marketing, publicity, and business angle, I do have to question the wisdom of it.

I don't think any of that matters at this point tbh.

The mob that has obsessively made videos about this team, would have just did this even if the character had hair.

Hair wasn't long enough...thus woke
Make it long. Character is a minority...thus woke
Make the character not a minority. Character still female.......thus woke
Make the character a man. (Not manly ENOUGH and clearly a cuck, omg WOKE)

I don't buy that the rage angry Youtube thumbnail face people where going to suddenly leave this team alone if any of the above occurred or something man.

Would you believe the person that gave Hogwarts Legacy a zero?

 

[PeteBull]

Who is we?

I didn't support Joel, though I understand why he selfishly did what he did. Joel certainly isn't a goddamn saint in the slightest

Not even saying majority, but big part of tlou players, say if its not even 60% of tlou players but measly 30%, is it enough that 30% of us feel betrayed and dont want anything to do with TLOU franchise nor Druckmann alltogether?
Edit: Just checked sales numbers, tlou for ps3 sold almost 13m copies, tlou remaster, for ps4 sold 18m copies so total 31m even not including part1 which could very well be double/tripple dippers, so that measly 30% is 9m lost sales, imho quite substantial amount, even if we assume 30%...

 

[PurePlatinum]

There are fair criticisms to be levied against TLoU2 in terms of pacing and length, but most of the intense criticism comes from capital-G gamers unable to handle a story that involves a woman killing their favorite guy.

Say what you will about the game but at least memorable things happen, as opposed to most game stories which are completely disposable. It took a stand and made a point. I give credit to the man in the arena.

 

[SF Kosmo]

It's the market readjusting itself. We'll see how much Druckmann's decision to go full steam ahead with "modern audiences" pays off in the long run.

Can someone please explain what the fuck they think the phrase "modern audiences" means?

Like every game that comes out is made for modern audiences, people don't make games for people in other time periods, because how would they play them?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Because it's that bad of a character design.

and why is it bad?

 

[HJuggernaut]

not bonding with the main protagonist of the game is a valid criticism and the ONLY reason the studio picked a bald asian woman is to be woke.

 

[apocaliptic]

She is ugly. I am not playing an ugly main protagonist

 

[Syphon Filter]

colin the known fanboy defending woke trash? not surprised...

 

[CLW]

Joel made a selfish decision for a group that was committed to finding a cure, and in doing so that's not without consequences, that was the entire point of the sequel and it was a bold move but it seemed pretty natural to me. Doesn't mean that it HAD to be that way, but it logically makes sense why it did.

Neil we KNOW it’s you

 

[ANoa]

and why is it bad?

Because it's boring. Looks like a grown up "Lev" from TLOU2. It has modern audiences written all over it from the look to the attitude and mannerisms. Not a character I want to play as for 30 hours and watch in all those cutscenes.

 

[xBlueStonex]

I can't name a single space game that looks like it, to say it's generic is odd to me.

You’re joking right? The whole 80’s space thing has been beaten to death since Guardians of the Galaxy came out a decade ago. Are you forgetting about Concord which just launched (and died) a few months ago?

On a more related note, I lost all respect for Druckmann after this dumpster fire of a presentation:



Such a terrible ideology to subscribe to.

 

[EDMIX]

The whole 80’s space thing has been beaten to death since Guardians of the Galaxy

...names 1 IP.

 

[BigBeauford]

Does anyone remember Returnal?

There were very little complaints about her looks and this is considered one of the best games of 2021 and of the generation by many people, and that's because the gameplay was important.

And Colin is right, most gamers don't know the discourse that's taking place online. My only complaint is that the trailer wasn't one of their best and that's why they need to go all out with their next one.

It's almost immediately obvious to anyone who has played Returnal, that Selene and Jordan have nothing in common. Selene was not a girlboss or smug insufferable brat. She was a professional and reacted appropriately to a horrible situation. She's a superbly written and acted character.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

She is ugly. I am not playing an ugly main protagonist

Not just ugly.

But have fun playing a game where there's obviously going to be Gen Z attitude, and product placements everywhere.

People bring up maybe it's a plot she shaves her head to put on disguises. lol. If that's true you'd see that in the game and every poster shot wouldnt be the standard bald look again. And if the trailer shows a defiant bratty character sipping straws in people's faces, you know there will be more than attitude in the game. You also arent getting a final game with no obvious promo ads or brand logos in your face if the trailer has it everywhere.

For a new IP from ND/Druck, best to just wait for reviews and see if it's a good game. LOU2 curve balled it with LBQT stuff and Joel killed, so you know Druck isnt afraid of messing with plots that can push away gamers. His hope is there's no leaks, so people buy it blind. And if there's plot gamers dont like, it doesnt matter anymore because you already bought the game.

 

[DForce]

It's almost immediately obvious to anyone who has played Returnal, that Selene and Jordan have nothing in common. Selene was not a girlboss or smug insufferable brat. She was a professional and reacted appropriately to a horrible situation. She's a superbly written and acted character.

No, this won't work because people think the problem can be solved by making her "attractive." The so-called "issue" has been the character's appearance and making characters "ugly."

 

[GametimeUK]

TLOU2 for me personally was a huge miss. It's the only ND game since Uncharted 1 that I haven't loved and replayed numerous times.

 

[Schmendrick]

Oh yay, another one of those threads.....

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

Great.

Now they want to defend Druckmann because he has autism.

 

[Joshmyersbv]

Im not going to give Druckmann any benefit of the doubt when he worships people like Anita Sarkeesian.

 

[Guilty_AI]

When the reason you are critical of ND is because a protagonist is a female with a shaved head, you've lost the plot.

*shaved buff female virtual signaling for dumb ideologies that we know ND wants to push, set in a generic GotG look-alike setting except 10 years too late, with blatant advertisement placements everywhere, style of dialogue and interactions that feel old and tired at this point, and all after a noticeable sharp decline in the quality of their story-telling with TLoU2

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

I'm perplexed by the confusion here. Naughty Dog have clearly shifted their target demographic. They've decided to cater to the ethereal non-entity known as the "modern audience." It appears the significance of that seemingly innocuous direction change hasn't been grasped all that well by some. Allow me to translate; Naughty Dog's latest games are tailored towards modern leftists. If you aren't a modern leftist, you're no longer the intended audience. Thats all there is to it. While this is undoubtedly disappointing, it's ultimately the studio's choice. As a consumer, if that sufficiently bothers you, all you can do is not buy the game. If anyone on this forum or anywhere has a problem with that... fuck em. Let them try and gaslight you; usually all that amounts to is mischaracterisations of your arguments and whining because you noticed the agenda at play. Don't like the fact all the generals in the game are women... sexist. You think it's weird the majority of women in the game are so masculine... misogynist. You believe it's strange the small handful of characters in the game are comprised of lesbians, gays and they/thems... bigot. Even in this thread, all the defenders literally parrot the same nonsense. They are likely leftists themselves. They don't care about the composition of the games audience. They don't care if the majority of players that will play this game are 60% - 70% straight men. All they care about is adherence to their ideology. Such a shame that they hold such disdain for the majority straight male player base that propelled studios such as Naughty Dog into supremacy.

Seriously, when it comes to "modern audience" focused developers... why support a group of people that actively despise you?

 

[peek]

Mmmmh! Smell that? Its my own fart. A favorite hobby of mine that I share with fellow fart sniffers like The Druck.

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[Bernardougf]

I would say between phase 1 and 2.

 

[Pantz]

Does anyone remember Returnal?

There were very little complaints about her looks and this is considered one of the best games of 2021 and of the generation by many people, and that's because the gameplay was important.

And Colin is right, most gamers don't know the discourse that's taking place online. My only complaint is that the trailer wasn't one of their best and that's why they need to go all out with their next one.

I complained

 

[mrqs]

Brain rot is real.
Would be interesting when ND wins goty again with Intergalactic. Im sure they will act exactly as we all suspected they will act.

Absolutely. These people are the definition of snowflake.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You’re joking right? The whole 80’s space thing has been beaten to death since Guardians of the Galaxy came out a decade ago. Are you forgetting about Concord which just launched (and died) a few months ago?

On a more related note, I lost all respect for Druckmann after this dumpster fire of a presentation:



Such a terrible ideology to subscribe to.

So you named a single movie, not a videogame, and listed a GaaS hero shooter title that's really not relevant at all and was stillborn.

Doesn't seem like there's some played out theme here, amidst an ocean of all the other genres we get year in and year out.

Because it's boring. Looks like a grown up "Lev" from TLOU2. It has modern audiences written all over it from the look to the attitude and mannerisms. Not a character I want to play as for 30 hours and watch in all those cutscenes.

Only if your perspective is as shallow as puddle. Lev was not a main protagonist, and was actually quite shy throughout the entire campaign. Jordan is nothing like that. She's a confident bounty hunter with an apparently storied criminal past.

The attitude and mannerisms look fine to me - why is it acceptable for someone like Nathan Drake or his brother Samuel Drake to act such a way, but a female protagonist can't?

 

[UltimaKilo]

Too easy.

Textbook example of what I was talking about:

It’s sad that the defenders just can’t accept that for a lot of people ND have completely lost relevancy and for legitimate reasons.

Not for all people, they/them still love them. OP is one of those plurality of people.

 

[ANoa]

Only if your perspective is as shallow as puddle. Lev was not a main protagonist, and was actually quite shy throughout the entire campaign. Jordan is nothing like that. She's a confident bounty hunter with an apparently storied criminal past.

The attitude and mannerisms look fine to me - why is it acceptable for someone like Nathan Drake or his brother Samuel Drake to act such a way, but a female protagonist can't?

Looks like Lev.

Don't see how she reminded you of Nathan Drake but I guess you just wanted to cry misogyny.

 

[ABnormal]

Nobody is questioning ND capability, it always spoke for itself. What's questioned is the decision to force political views (or worse, idiotic agencies ratings for the industry) as if every story and game has to continuously teach a forced lesson on inclusivity, rather than being the genuine expression and original vision of a developer.
Someday people will learn that real creativity is not something that comes from a set of rules, but rather from the depht of the Self, and expresses naturally, not artificially, so every attempt to impose artificial rules will always result in something that will always feel forced, not natural, not genuine, and above all, never freash and original as only a true inspiration can be.

 

[mrqs]

Jordan is nothing like that. She's a confident bounty hunter with an apparently storied criminal past.

My GUESS is that she was pretending to be confident for her manager. After she ends the call, her expression is of fear and extreme concern. She was playing though to get the job, but she knew she was extremely fucked. I'm not sure the tone of the game is going to be upbeat.

 

[Gaiff]

The attitude and mannerisms look fine to me - why is it acceptable for someone like Nathan Drake or his brother Samuel Drake to act such a way, but a female protagonist can't?

Why don’t people like women who act like men? You tell me.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Looks like Lev.

Don't see how she reminded you of Nathan Drake but I guess you just wanted to cry misogyny.

Yes, looks alone. That's why it's a superficial take. A character is so much more than what they look like.

Jordan is well acted in that trailer with a lot of personality, it doesn't come off to me as a bad character at all. People get upset that she has a little snark, and I don't see why that's an issue given the context of her character. Nobody complained about Nathan Drake having similar confidence/snark all the time. I guess it's not appropriate for women to have that kind of personality according to some.

 

[user friendly]

"Magical"

Nothing wrong with the gameplay, but it didn't do anything new.

The whole game, not just the gameplay. Graphics, animation, sound design, combat and the various ways combat played out and the different choices you can make. There arent many games where I beat a section and want to restart that section right away just to try something.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

I ain't gonna listen to this dork try to lecture me on how I'm not allowed to dislike a game, lol

 

[TexMex]

I ain't gonna listen to this dork try to lecture me on how I'm not allowed to dislike a game, lol

That isn't what he says at all, which you'd know if you had listened to it. It's so weird that this is the level of discourse (if you can call it that) we've hit. I must comment on what this person said, though I will proudly proclaim I will not listen to it either.

 

[ANoa]

Yes, looks alone. That's why it's a superficial take. A character is so much more than what they look like.

Jordan is well acted in that trailer with a lot of personality, it doesn't come off to me as a bad character at all. People get upset that she has a little snark, and I don't see why that's an issue given the context of her character. Nobody complained about Nathan Drake having similar confidence/snark all the time. I guess it's not appropriate for women to have that kind of personality according to some.

I mean, it's pretty weird to have 2 butch bald asian women in back to back games. One who wants to be a man and the other who probably does too (at least in Druckmann's fantasies).

Confidence isn't some unique trait, it's what basically every main character in every game has. Beyond that her personality is nothing like Nathan Drake. He's more warm and relatable. Just drop the comparison because it's not there despite you desperately grasping.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I mean, it's pretty weird to have 2 butch bald asian women in back to back games. One who wants to be a man and the other who probably does too (at least in Druckmann's fantasies).

Confidence isn't some unique trait, it's what basically every main character in every game has. Beyond that her personality is nothing like Nathan Drake. He's more warm and relatable. Just drop the comparison because it's not there despite you desperately grasping.

"Warm and relatable" in what way? Because he's not a butch bald asian woman that you are apparently insecure about?

She doesn't seem unrelateable, based on the extremely limited trailer footage we have to go on. It's fine if you don't like the visual look of the character, but people outright dismissing it based on a small trailer is just wild to me.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Here’s my take on this: ND games have pedestrian gameplay since the end of the Jak trilogy (and even then Ratchet and Sly both played better). I really like the Uncharted initial trilogy because the characters were fun and while the gameplay was shallow, the whole package was tons of fun. TLOU for the time was also really good, very overrated, but a good game with a good story and characters. Then Uncharted 4 was a bloated mess and I just lost interest in the studio. I don’t like this kind of game.

I’m not a full on chud and I don’t feel ATTACKED by what was an honestly confrontational video. But a bald girlboss drinking a milk shake with Marvel writing dialogue? I hope eventually this sort of archetype become self-aware and we can some fun. Right now we have to take it a face value. We have to look at a Ninja Turtle looking ugly as fuck lady who talks like she hunts for upvotes all day and go like yeah, I want to invest DOZENS OF HOURS into her universe.

So fuck this game. And fuck people saying I should playing because Druckmann is a creative genius. He isn’t. TLOU is a The Road fanfic, Uncharted 4 was really retarded and we all know about Golf Simulator Part 2. I wish him well and I hope ND fans get what they want. I will not be playing it.

 

[Sleepwalker]

This game will be a lot better on PC when you can mod in Nathan Drake as the main character.

Since ND won't give me more Uncharted ill make it myself, in space!


Anyway, in all seriousness I didn't like Jordan's attitude or looks, or the trailer in general. But I haven't thought about this game one time since. Only when I come in to read GAF and theres 200 threads about it.

In a way I think that's worse? Bad publicity is still publicity at the end of the day.

 

[Boss Mog]

I think it's fine to complain about their design choices on forums or comment sections and to say that you won't be buying it as a result of said choices. There will be plenty of other videogames to spend your money on.

Anything beyond that, like harassing the devs and people involved on their social media, making threats, etc... is taking things way too far and is completely unacceptable.

The thing is, the vast majority of the "hate" is coming in that first form, and not in the "too far" form but game "journalists" will focus only on those extreme cases and conflate the valid criticisms with them.

 

[Pegasus Actual]

That isn't what he says at all, which you'd know if you had listened to it. It's so weird that this is the level of discourse (if you can call it that) we've hit. I must comment on what this person said, though I will proudly proclaim I will not listen to it either.

Oh so it's not what he said. Well then maybe take it up with the OP for misrepresenting it then.

 

[Hypereides]

Too easy to believe a bunch of outburst reviews rather than actual reviews by people?

Oh no they killed my favorite character Joel, game is a 1.0 out of 10

I gotta give it to you, man. The way you handwave away 100.000+ user reviews like its negligible is really amazing. Truly just a tiny blip. Nothing to see here.

That's rich, coming from the biggest Sony dickrider of them all. If you're not on Sony's payroll, it would be a curious mixture of mindblowing and depressing.

Speaking of which, anyone on the green team willing to do a trade? You could use someone relentless like Sawyer. The blue camp could take someone more chill.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I gotta give it to you, man. The way you handwave away 100.000+ user reviews like its negligible is really amazing. Truly just a tiny blip. Nothing to see here.

If you think TLOU2 is objectively a 5/10 game like the userscore, you need some serious help. It went on to win GOTY awards, sold over 10M in a single year. It's not a 5/10 game.

The review scores are a small blip in the ocean compared to the people that enjoyed it. A vocal minority that was upset that Joel was killed early on. Same people that smash the dislike button on a trailer.

 

[ANoa]

"Warm and relatable" in what way? Because he's not a butch bald asian woman that you are apparently insecure about?

She doesn't seem unrelateable, based on the extremely limited trailer footage we have to go on. It's fine if you don't like the visual look of the character, but people outright dismissing it based on a small trailer is just wild to me.

He cracks jokes to cope with all those high stress situations brought on by his recklessness. Still frequently panics but hopes things will be ok.

Just like you desperately tried (and failed) to accuse me of misogyny, you're now grasping to call me insecure because I pointed out 2 characters are oddly similar. Just using a twitter argument flowchart.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

He cracks jokes to cope with all those high stress situations brought on by his recklessness. Still frequently panics but hopes things will be ok.

Just like you desperately tried (and failed) to accuse me of misogyny, you're now grasping to call me insecure because I pointed out 2 characters are oddly similar. Just using a twitter argument flowchart.

Sounds like Jordan probably has a similar lighthearted and relateable demeanor based on the trailer.

But she's a bald asian butch chick, as you have stated, so clearly she can't be those things as well.

 

[Hypereides]

If you think TLOU2 is objectively a 5/10 game like the userscore, you need some serious help. It went on to win GOTY awards, sold over 10M in a single year. It's not a 5/10 game.

The review scores are a small blip in the ocean compared to the people that enjoyed it. A vocal minority that was upset that Joel was killed early on.

Have you looked in the mirror, Sawyer? To some it is that. To you it isn't. 100.000 is absolutely not a "vocal minority" in terms of a feedback metric. I don't give a fuck about it winning GOTY awards. Shit like that comes and goes.

The game rode on the back off the success of its predecessor. Deal with it.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Have you looked in the mirror, Sawyer? To some it is that. To you it isn't. 100.000 is absolutely not a "vocal minority" in terms of a feedback metric. I don't give a fuck about it winning GOTY awards. Shit like that comes and goes.

The game rode on the back off the success of its predecessor. Deal with it.

To a fringe, highly impassioned minority, it is. That’s fine, they aren’t consensus though just because they’re more likely to leave a review

The narrative that this is some 5/10 game in aggregate based on a user score is laughable