velociraptor
Junior Member
My PC is connected to a 40" Samsung 1080p TV.
I sit a few feet away, and I can still tell the difference.
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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
I sit a few feet away, and I can still tell the difference.
The system was designed to integrate all of its Operating Systems into a seamless experience.
makes peoples lives easier.
Audio Chip:
http://www.gamechup.com/mark-cerny-ps4-contains-a-dedicated-audio-processing-chip/
Yeah so it can compress/decompress the audio. The X1 chip can do audio processing in terms of effects like reverb which you usually do on your CPU or as Cerny says via GPGPU.
HW Scaler:
So you are pretty sure there is one - but I found no evidence that it exists or supports frame-by-frame scaling. If so, I stand corrected.
Display Planes: PS4 has 2 planes, X1 has 3 planes. Yeah it's no big difference here.
Move engines:
Good that the PS4 doesn't need those but my point was that the existence of those help the X1 to overcome bandwidth issues.
Esram: I was more talking about post-processing and access of data already residing in the ESram. Low latency here helps a lot.
People are not ingrained with 1920x1080. 1080p is not just some made up benchmark. It's the native resolution of any HD TV/monitor. It is the starting point for what most consider to be a true HD experience. There is a huge difference between any resolution <1080p and 1080p. There's even a huge difference between 900p and 1080p.
Oh man. The denial in this thread that the pure ps4 paper numbers are not all mighty Thor from above and that downplaying of all of Xbox's inherently designed strengths and advantages ...silly man.
same old posts defending the power advantage to the end. Just like most things man, the truth is somewhere in the middle and these machines are as close as any generation ever.
lots of outrage and accusations of parity fixing incoming on DF faceoffs in future.
when in reality the parity comes from MS engineers designing a system that simply doesn't have the same number of CUs as PS but will be able to keep up with and in some cases exceed it.
good luck with the fight. I'll be enjoying all the great games
same old posts defending the power advantage to the end. Just like most things man, the truth is somewhere in the middle and these machines are as close as any generation ever.
lots of outrage and accusations of parity fixing incoming on DF faceoffs in future.
when in reality the parity comes from MS engineers designing a system that simply doesn't have the same number of CUs as PS but will be able to keep up with and in some cases exceed it.
good luck with the fight. I'll be enjoying all the great games
velociraptor
Junior Member
Please explain to me the benefit of having extra display planes besides running games at sub HD?
The poster I quoted wrote his piece as if there isn't any coherency at all in the X1 so I wanted to correct that. It might not be HuMA by AMD's definition but it's still there.
SEGAvangelist
Member
I guess it's a backwards way of "future proofing" when you think about it. Surprised Sony didn't do the same thing, then, considering I imagine they expected to render games in sub-1080p resolutions as well.
That's rich coming from you
I think it needs to be stated that a lot of the dedicated hardware in the Xbox One is in there because of the system's broad feature set. The audio hardware isn't dedicated to games, in fact I'd say that it's in there to simplify harmonizing then multiple audio streams from both HDMI ports as well as the on-board audio streams.
You can run it at sub HD for a short moment in demanding situations where you might lose some frames instead. I think this is a huge benefit when it comes to maintaining a stable resolution while keeping your hud rendered at 1080p.
shinra-bansho
Member
Since it's been brought up, what exactly is the expected consequence of having a "much more powerful audio chip"? Does one expect devs to sacrifice graphics or AI for audio on the PS4?
The ironing is delicious.
SEGAvangelist
Member
Right. Didn't MS mention that this can be done on a frame-by-frame basis in the DF article? I think that's pretty damn cool if so.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Wipeout HD already does this. This doesn't sound like an exclusive feature.
You know what I trust? The facts and the insight from the experts using both systems.
The numbers that really matter all support ps4 being more powerful and the developer insight we have, namely from forum insiders like Matt, point to ps4 being notably more powerful and easier to use.
It's not head in the sand, it's accepting reality or trying to downplay or ignore it.
ekim, Xbox needs 3 display planes because one is dedicated to the OS, so it can scale and snap stuff alongside the games. PS4 won't need that third one because it'll switch between dash and games, never running both at the same time (notifications can be popped up easily enough without that, like on PS3)
vgleaks says the primary difference between the display planes and the DCE in the PS4 is how many there are, therefore its pretty easy to infer that they support similar/the same features doing dynamic frame by frame scaling isn't exactly a difficult thing to support for hardware like this.
Move engines do not 'overcome' bandwidth issues they merely mean that you do not need the CPU to move data between the two pools something that a sensible setup would already do. It primarily means that the XBONE wont be wasting CPU cycles moving data, not that it helps with the bandwidth in any way.
Was the HUD rendered separately in Wipeout HD or was it scaled like the game was?
TrueGrime
Member
I'm just trying to be honest to the fact that when the game is in motion from the distance I am sitting away from my TV, the difference will be unnoticeable. Like I said, if a game can hit that true HD mark then I'm all for it, but if it drops to 1600x900 then I will not be upset by that difference. This is all a different story when I am sitting close to my computer monitor on a 24 inch LCD display. Then the smallest change in resolutions means the difference between a playable and unplayable game.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Call Of Duty games also display the HUD at 1080p while the actual game is sub HD, and this is on current generation hardware.
Still, you don't know what the audio chip can or cannot process. And Cerny doesn't expect audio to be processed by gpgpu before "a couple of years".
I wouldn't take this "it compresses and decompresses" quote as a full disclosure of the chipset capability.
And even if the audio chip couldn't process audio (which i'm very doubtful of considering Sony know it's shit when it comes to audio), you're in a really gpu centric generation so you can expect the CPU to have more than it takes to handle the job.
Not Frame-by-Frame and not vertically afaik.
Whiteshirt
Member
Wipeout HD overlays the HUD in native resolution.
To be totally correct, the things he was talking about doing on the GPU wrt audio were pretty advanced, and things you'd probably be doing on CPU or GPU on Xbox One too. Xbox One's audio chip does not handle everything you might ever want to do with audio rendering. AFAIK it does decoding, some mixing functions, some resampling, some filtering. Examples Cerny was giving for tracing audio through media etc. sound like a whole other kettle of fish.
Meanwhile we know the 'principal' tasked performed by audio chip in PS4 is decoding and encoding...but beyond that it is a bit of a question mark. I do think XB1's chip does more, if only because everyone keeps saying so, but mixing in Cerny's comments about GPGPU applications with the suggestion that the same or arbitrary GPU/CPU audio rendering can be handled instead on XB1 via its audio chip is misleading.
Haven't heard that one before. Source?
You also don't waste cycles for decompression/compression of textures - it's not just moving data but also processing in the same time.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
I just love these posts.
what are the inherently design strengths and advantages?
boredandlazy
Member
The move engines don't do texture decompression/compression, the TMU's do. The only thing that the move engines support is JPEG and thats being used for Kinect 2 it seems.
I feel the same way. I doubt most people even know what motion resolution their LCD/LED TVs run at. Hell I'm not even sure if that is still a bullet point in plasma/LCD differences.
SEGAvangelist
Member
Yeah, this is what It thought. I wonder why Wipeout was the only major game to do this last generation.
wouldn't you just leave the textures in compressed format that the GPU can deal with natively (like they have for donkeys years now)?
One of the planes in PS4 is for the OS.
Even on PS3 the OS overlaid over the game when you hit the home button.
On PS4 if a game wants to run its UI at one res and the game at another, it'll use a simple composite shader. It's trivial.
Xbox One's OS is asking games to submit the game and UI planes to the system separately, I believe, because it wants to be able to scale them independently itself if streaming to other displays/devices of different size and aspect ratio. This isn't functionality XB1 exposes currently, but it might be relevant in the future for it if it does some kind of remote play or remote control of its own.
Don't know the finer details but I think Rage had dynamic resolution as well.
Whiteshirt
Member
It is. In basically any electronics retailer catalogue, they'll mention Full HD 1080 which is obviously 1920x1080.
They do the same with laptops. In fact, people are likely more resolution concious considering how hard mobile phones are pushing resolution and display differences these days.
Wipeout HD does adjust resolution by a frame-by-frame basis. It just doesn't change the resolution vertically (so you get resolutions like XXXX by 1080.
I'm fairly sure that the HUD is always native resolution and overlaid over.
Because you do, the main advantage of this is that you don't blow out your caches with uncompressed data and you also save bandwidth, GCN supports compressed textures all the way upto the registers IIRC, or maybe it was L1 cache, either way, they don't need to decompress for a very long time.
phosphor112
Banned
I remember this was a big issue for Alan Wake. It took a little bit of time to realize that the native 3D resolution was much lower than the UI/HUD.
yeah, why was that guys ban so short?
I guess I confused it with tiling/untiling.
€: or when you're using JPEG compressed textures
Yay for you.
Can Crusher
Banned
This whole "Tv distance" thing to dismiss the benefit of higher resolutions is just incredible.
I guess I confused it with tiling/untiling.
: or when you're using JPEG compressed textures
They are texture swizzling units, something that pretty much every GPU supports for free now days.
SEGAvangelist
Member
People don't get banned for being fanboys. Fanboys are all over NeoGAF. They generally get banned for being disrespectful.
Sooner or later the GPU has to decompress them. LZ packed DXT will then unpacked in a dedicated piece of HW without bothering the GPU with this task.
edit: That's how I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong.