TetraGenesis
Member
I keep coming back here but every time I do I am reminded that this thread has completely surpassed the limits of my comprehension.
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EDGE: "Power struggle: the real differences between PS4 and Xbox One performance"
- Thread starter Musiol
- Start date
Barakov
Gold Member
Alright. Alright. I actually feel quite a bit better about this now.
It really shouldn't even be a question if the PS4 is more powerful & perform better than the Xbox One but thanks to some people in the media & MS them self selling a dream & saying things to confuse people the PS4 being more powerful is somehow a shock & hard for some to accept.
killatopak
Member
Thanks.
phosphor112
Banned
Holy shit. I saw you were still banned and I looked to see when your last post was. One month ago! I told myself "today HAS to be the day."
Welcome back, mate! Keep your neck away from the chopping block next time.
LOL I had no idea that a question could get you banned for a month around here lol.
but I never left just used a different browser to check everything out & it was weird watching the info that I found getting posted here by other people & not being able to comment in the threads I felt like a ghost.
SwiftDeath
Member
Okay really dumb question at this point but for the consoles does the main system memory (GDDR5 for PS4, DDR3 for XB1) act as the memory pool for the graphics card but on modern pcs the memory for the graphics cards are built directly into said graphics cards? Or do the console GPU's also have memory built-in to their respective cards?
Pretty sure it's the former as that's how I've always thought of it and if so does that mean that the main memory on a PC, the DDR3 is less important for the game vs the memory pool on the graphics card (usually GDDR5)?
For further clarification then the PS4 would kind of, sort of in a way have a 7850 but with 8gbs of GDDR5 memory (minus OS use) and XB1 would again kind of have a 7770 with 8GB of DDR3 + 32mb ESram (again minus OS use)?
Pretty sure it's the former as that's how I've always thought of it and if so does that mean that the main memory on a PC, the DDR3 is less important for the game vs the memory pool on the graphics card (usually GDDR5)?
For further clarification then the PS4 would kind of, sort of in a way have a 7850 but with 8gbs of GDDR5 memory (minus OS use) and XB1 would again kind of have a 7770 with 8GB of DDR3 + 32mb ESram (again minus OS use)?
They will use unified memory that will be for the CPU & GPU but the Xbox One GPU will have 32MB of eSRAM embedded in the SoC connected to the GPU.
while the PS4 will have a single pool of GDDR5 with the memory being fed to the GPU in ring buffers.
'Heterogeneous Queuing'
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well firstly, consoles don't use cards, specifically these new APU designs which are more like SoCs. On PCs, Video Cards are built to have a path within the card for the GPU to the video memory, with a secondary path(PCI-E) to the system components and system memory(DDR).
SwiftDeath
Member
Thanks guys
So it's more or less how I thought it was although I've been keeping the bits and pieces seperate in my head to keep things simple whereas both are embedded solutions and closer to SOC as shadow points out
So then a game on PC will use both the memory available on the graphics card and the system memory? But for a console there really is only the system memory and in Xb1's case an additional 32mb of ESram on the GPU?
Yes I forgot, the graphics card will generate a different kind of heat to the PS4.
How silly of me.
Sword Of Doom
Member
You said it's flawed without saying why. Could you elaborate?
On a PC the GPU & CPU Have seperate memory pools so if the CPU wanted to supply the GPU with a job to do it had to package the data up into a data package that the GPU could read than copy it over to the GPU memory.
with one pool of memory their is no need of copying the data over to another pool of memory for the GPU to process it.
SwiftDeath
Member
Right I understand this is the basic idea of unified architecture and the obvious benefits from it
I wonder if PC's will ever be able to utilize this? As the architecture seems to be fairly specified to gaming/graphical intensive purposes
phosphor112
Banned
AMD and Intel both have these type of solutions already. AMD is ahead in the GPU aspect of the APU's while Intel has the much better CPU. Both offer CPU and GPU on one chip that can access a single pool of memory.
It's just interesting if we will ever see a high end or "enthusiast" solution.
So far, PS4 is the highest in terms of gaming performance, and that's probably considered mid to low in power when compared to other GPU's on the market.
andromeduck
Member
and nvidia looks like it'll be trying to do this with their next few versions of tegra and project denver
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
How is it flawed?
Each GPU has a maximum Thermal Design Power, the 7990 has a TDP of 375W which means having a heatsink/cooling combo that is capable of dissipating that much heat.
We know the Xbox One is aiming for 100W TDP thus we can surmise that the PS4 will also have a similar TDP.
100W TDP is nothing, look at the stock heatsink that comes with a Core i5 Intel 95W Sandybridge or 77W Ivybridge CPU, it is really thin.
If the rumors are true Kaveri is going to be knocking on the Xbox One SoC's door at around 1TFLOPS but the memory bandwidth isn't going to be as good as the Xbox One.
phosphor112
Banned
Oh yeah. Forgot about Kaveri.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Its flawed because your comparing a PC in most likely some super sized form-factor with a 162 x 52 x 98mm console . It doesn't matter that the TDP is significantly higher, its alot easier to fit proper cooling devices in a PC board and alot easier to actually obtain cooling devices for a singular PC. They don't have a NewEgg to shop with.
Consoles are designed in small unintrusive boxes that are mass produced. Not only do you have limited real estate, you have to establish a firm supply chain that won't cost you an arm and a leg. You also have to ensure quality manufacturing. PS4/XB1 are the largest SoCs of their kind, there is little to no precedent for their production.
Its nowhere near as trivial as you are trying to make it seem.
How is it flawed?
Each GPU has a maximum Thermal Design Power, the 7990 has a TDP of 375W which means having a heatsink/cooling combo that is capable of dissipating that much heat.
We know the Xbox One is aiming for 100W TDP thus we can surmise that the PS4 will also have a similar TDP.
100W TDP is nothing, look at the stock heatsink that comes with a Core i5 Intel 95W Sandybridge or 77W Ivybridge CPU, it is really thin.
This is what the PS3 Slim uses.
Again, quit comparing PC setups.
The most recent rumors show that Kaverai has more GCN cores than the Xbox1's GPU. So it will have a better GPU than the Xbox1's APU if you upclock it to match the Xbox's GPU clockspeed.
Last rumors I seen had it at 512 ALU's but clocked at 1GHz
Sword Of Doom
Member
who makes the Kaveri?
AMD it's their new APU.
Sword Of Doom
Member
Thanks. Is that the first APU on the market?
iamshadowlark
Banned
Naw its third generation, I think. I have a APU in my laptop.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Kavari is the first AMD APU, besides the XB1 and PS4, with more than 2-4 CUs. It has 10 CUs to 13 CUs on the high end. Because of the number of CUs, it required hUMA and other HSA features that were designed into the PS4 and XB1 and also found in large dGPUs. No word on this but it probably has a UVD 4.0 because UVD 3 requires 2 CUs as a final stage so the GPU has to be on when streaming IPTV. With 10-13 CUs on, the power use would exceed the Energy Star IPTV Regs for Computers.
From AMD comments; they have high hopes for the Kavari APU. They are developing a HSA Linux kernel for Kavari. The same Kernel with minor changes should work with a PS4 if Sony decides to allow it.
I kinda wonder at the XB1 and PS4 chip supplies as the PS4 APU is diffused in Taiwan by TSMC and packaged in the Philippines. There is a huge Cat 5 Typhoon with 235 MPH winds hitting that area.
Its flawed because your comparing a PC in most likely some super sized form-factor with a 162 x 52 x 98mm console . It doesn't matter that the TDP is significantly higher, its alot easier to fit proper cooling devices in a PC board and alot easier to actually obtain cooling devices for a singular PC. They don't have a NewEgg to shop with.
Consoles are designed in small unintrusive boxes that are mass produced. Not only do you have limited real estate, you have to establish a firm supply chain that won't cost you an arm and a leg. You also have to ensure quality manufacturing. PS4/XB1 are the largest SoCs of their kind, there is little to no precedent for their production.
Its nowhere near as trivial as you are trying to make it seem.
This is what the PS3 Slim uses.
Again, quit comparing PC setups.
Quit playing armchair thermal engineer, The TDP of the SOC in PS4 is 100-125watt is not a lot of heat to move.
Fuggedabowdit.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Which is why they included that large heat sink? Surely you and legend know better than Sony, they couldve just put in that tiny Intel heatsink amirite?
Sword Of Doom
Member
I thought this belonged in this thread since SHAPE has come up a countless times.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/4
Confirmed PS4 has AMD's TrueAudio DSP. How does this relate to the "power struggle"?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/4
Confirmed PS4 has AMD's TrueAudio DSP. How does this relate to the "power struggle"?
Muppet of a Man
Member
It means that x1 doesn't have the advantage of being the only console to offload sound processing from the CPU.
PS4 Spec Update: Audio DSP Is Based On AMDs True Audio
by Ryan Smithon November 13, 2013 3:07 PM EST
Continuing our coverage of AMDs APU13 conference, one of this mornings keynotes has been from Sonys VP of Research & Development in North America, Dominic Mallinson. Most of Dominics presentation was a recap of the PS4 thus far including some detail in why Sony went with an AMD APU for the console but Dominic did throw in one more piece of information on the PS4s specifications that we havent heard before. Specifically, the PS4s audio DSP is based on AMDs TrueAudio technology.
Briefly, from a console-centric view this isnt of great surprise. Weve had every reason to believe that the PS4s audio DSP would have similar capabilities to TrueAudio given the features and low die space cost of todays audio DSPs, coupled with Sonys previous comments on the matter. So from that perspective this isnt a significant revelation as far as the PS4s audio capabilities are concerned, but we do finally have a bit more detail on the underlying hardware powering it.
But from a PC perspective however, this is going to be more important and unexpected news. At this time we dont know what the underlying API is like AMD hasnt even released the TrueAudio PC API yet but the shared hardware is going to be a big deal for both AMDs CPUs and APUs. One of the challenges we discussed as facing TrueAudio is developer adoption; AMD has to convince developers to take the time to program for TrueAudio along with more traditional CPU sound engines. AMD has been working with audio middleware developers to help bootstrap TrueAudio adoption, but todays announcement would take that one step further.
PS4 utilizing TrueAudio means there will be at least some level of audio engine portability between the PS4 and current generation AMD products. To that end if developers can write high quality audio engines on the PS4 thanks to the presence of the dedicated audio DSP, and then take that audio engine and bring it to the PC to run on GPU/APU TrueAudio DSPs, then that provides a further avenue for bootstrapping TrueAudio usage in games. So much like Mantle in the graphics space, a shared console connection for TrueAudio in the audio space would allow for AMD to leverage their console connection to both allow better/easier porting from consoles, and to achieve the critical mass necessary to make tapping these low-level hardware features viable and worthwhile for a wider pool of developers.
That said, AMD isnt promoting TrueAudio as a console porting solution right now like they have been Mantle, but the potential is there if AMD and developers seek to exploit it. Which if nothing else makes TrueAudio all the more worth keeping an eye on over the next year, as solving the bootstrap/adoption issue will be a critical factor in the technologys success. On that note, according to AMDs latest schedule Thief is still expected to be the PC TrueAudio launch title, so we should be getting to see the first fruits of AMDs labor here in February.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/ps4-spec-update-audio-dsp-is-based-on-amds-trueaudio
Probably PS4 has a better DSP. I didn't found any article about XO DSP that mentioned support 3D Audio like PS4 TrueAudio DSP.
Well the PS4 was running ahead because the XB1 was running on two crutches SHAPE and Esram, but the PS4 just went and kicked the SHAPE crutch from under the XB1.
Best analogy I could come up with.
BreakinBad
Neo Member
Do we still not know the Xbox One's drive speed? We have to by now, right? Did I miss it?
Facepalm.gif
Except the PS3 launched with an already old GPU and half the RAM a whole year later
This time the PS3 has a much better GPU, RAM several times faster and none of the OS and kinect baggage of the XO which for example takes 2 cores off the CPU all the time
Sword Of Doom
Member
Is the PS4 audio processing going to use any of the GPU? Or is it a Seperate dedicated processing unit?
Whiteshirt
Member
Isn't the whole AMD GPU audio shebang all dedicated hardware? I'm pretty sure it's the case in AMD's new R9 GPUs.
No idea about it with the PS4 but I wouldn't be surprised.
No idea about it with the PS4 but I wouldn't be surprised.
Nightengale
Member
All things said and done... Did PS4 end,up with the "more to be revealed " secret sauce instead?
PS4 having certain level of amd trueaudio tech inside.
Mantle ending up being more compatible with PS4 api compared to Dx11.
PS4 having certain level of amd trueaudio tech inside.
Mantle ending up being more compatible with PS4 api compared to Dx11.
It is based on AMD's TrueAudio which uses dedicated DSPs from Tensilica. That is the same tech that is used in the XBO. Nevertheless, there will be certainly some audio-related tasks that are better suited for the CPU and/or the GPU. Running those calculations there will also be possible. That, however, is a general statement and not exclusive to the PS4.
iirc the entire programmable part of the DSP/s in the XB1 is taken up by Kinect meaning that its entirely fixed function. If the PS4 is truly a TrueAudio piece and contains (similar) DSP's that are programmable, it could be much more expansive.
Question is if they use trueaudio tech or trueaudio. We know how pr spinning can make something as 1:1 like original where in reality its not feature complete.
I think Sony and AMD would say straight after TrueAudio unveil that ps4 has that.
Yes, it is. But concluding from the anadtech article ( and from the youtube video AMD GPU 14 conference ) TrueAudio is about 3D Audio technology. Like virtual sourrond from the PULSE headsets, but this will be TRUE 3D Audio. Does XO support it? I haven't found any article about XO audio chip ( SHAPE ) that support 3D Audio technology like TrueAudio on PS4.