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[EverydayBeast]

GTA6 might turn out okay it isn’t for everybody, Zelda has more to offer and more success.

 

[Philfrag]

My controversial take is that the Houser brothers leaving Rockstar is hopefully going to breath some new life into the gameplay mechanics of GTA and Red Dead. Historically the mission design has never realised the full potential of the simulation the world designers created, as the writers always wanted to make a movie first. I think the Houser's were the ones driving this philosophy. I think Rockstar needs to break away from this. Their worlds are breeding grounds for emergent gameplay but you only ever see it if you decide to go on a rampage during free roam. If you threw some structure into that simulation and built missions out of systems interacting with each other instead of story and cut scenes then you have true emergent gameplay tied to how you level up in that world. I personally think their multiplayer is going to be the platform for this. I really do think that the story modes in these games are going the way of the COD story modes. After thoughts to a live multiplayer live service. Before people froth at the mouth and scream at me for such sacrilege just remember that GTA multiplayer doesn't have to be GTAV multiplayer. I'll agree that there's a lot top hate about it, but it also has the beginning of some really neat ideas that if expanded on would completely revolutionise the idea of a living breathing world with converging emergent systems. I don't think GTA has anymore interesting stories to tell, Rockstar should start focusing on what they can do to accommodate player controlled narrative with their open world instead.

Now if Rockstar don't realise this potential with GTA 6 then my bet would be Starfield would have better potential to show off emergent gameplay....but barely. Maybe Zelda too but Breath of the Wild never seemed to show off emergent systems beyond 'oh no my weapon broke'.

 

[Hugare]

I'm so fucking tired of open world / singleplayer bloated games

Out of those mentioned, I'll probably play Starfield the most.

Not because of the gameplay, mind you. I expect shit gameplay. I play Bethesda games for the quests.

Gameplay wise, Zelda will probably the most refined one. But looking at BOTW, it will probably give you an open world with zero rewards for you to play with.

But some people will love it for the gameplay systems that they will never use properly, but find them amazing while watching some japanese youtuber combining all of them together to kill a goblin in the most contrived way

And GTA VI will give you the most advanced AI in the history of videogames to be used in extremely linear missions. Yay!

 

[Guilty_AI]

How are the unscripted shoot-outs you can create in GTA not emergent? They are unpredictable, dynamic situations with hundreds of factors involved, many of which you can influence.

These "shootouts" is literally the game just spawing enemies around you, infinitely. Any half-assed shooter with a horde mode does that. This is barely scratching the surface of what a game with emergent design is supposed to be doing.
Not to mention these situations have no impact on missions or the 'main game' aside from maybe giving you some slight annoyances, like attracting cops while going from A to B and now you have to lose them before getting to B.

I'll give you an example of what proper emergent gameplay should look like, using GTA 2 i previously mentioned:
-In that game, you could go to any gang territory and start killing gang members indiscriminately.
-The more members you killed, the more enmity you created with that specific gang.
-The higher the enmity, the deadlier the weapons they used to try and kill you (From pistols to machine guns, flamethrowers, rocket launchers, etc. Each gang had their specific weapons).
-As you lost respect with them, you gained respect with their rival gang.
-Having more respect of that rival gang, you could now do higher tier missions for them.
-All of this is done by full will of the player, not something that happens in some obligatory mission, nor that the game pushes you to do.
-Speaking of missions, you could also beat the game without doing a single mission.

 

[wolfboy203]

How are the unscripted shoot-outs you can create in GTA not emergent? They are unpredictable, dynamic situations with hundreds of factors involved, many of which you can influence.

Well tbh you're not wrong with GTA 4 and RDR 2 But when it comes to GTA V? Not exactly since the cops and enemies are all aimbotting dickheads who constantly do the same things in every gunfight. They strafe from side to side hitting you with perfect accuracy everytime and eventually they will perform rapid fire on you killing you in seconds. Theres no sense of unpredictability anymore since the enemies no longer miss shots like in GTA 4.

Also the mission structure has been the same since the beginning with instant fail states if you try to think outside of the box mission wise...

Edit: The cops are also the same as all the previous games. They're all psychic lemmings with little to no brains and you get instant wanted levels for shit that makes no sense like killing someone in the middle of nowhere. Even when out of sight, they still know where you are most times and they constantly spawn them in front of you.

 

[GigaBowser]

Well tbh you're not wrong with GTA 4 and RDR 2 But when it comes to GTA V? Not exactly since the cops and enemies are all aimbotting dickheads who constantly do the same things in every gunfight. They strafe from side to side hitting you with perfect accuracy everytime and eventually they will perform rapid fire on you killing you in seconds. Theres no sense of unpredictability anymore since the enemies no longer miss shots like in GTA 4.

Also the mission structure has been the same since the beginning with instant fail states if you try to think outside of the box mission wise...

Edit: The cops are also the same as all the previous games. They're all psychic lemmings with little to no brains and you get instant wanted levels for shit that makes no sense like killing someone in the middle of nowhere. Even when out of sight, they still know where you are most times and they constantly spawn them in front of you.

You're missing out on all the other crazy amounts of AI going on in GTA with planes, trains, automobiles, NPC's.

The best emergent sandbox world ever.

 

[Wildebeest]

Emergent gameplay isn't really about complex AI, but about the way simple systems interact to produce complex results. So in something like a Bethesda game you might have a simple timebomb, a pickpocket system, and a daily routine for NPCs. So you can see that an NPC has a daily routine where they talk to a certain character every day. You can pickpocket them and plant a timebomb on them, which explodes when they meet that other character.

 

[GigaBowser]

Emergent gameplay isn't really about complex AI, but about the way simple systems interact to produce complex results. So in something like a Bethesda game you might have a simple timebomb, a pickpocket system, and a daily routine for NPCs. So you can see that an NPC has a daily routine where they talk to a certain character every day. You can pickpocket them and plant a timebomb on them, which explodes when they meet that other character.

It's pure AI.

Someone shooting in the street in GTA, hits a car by accident, car drives into a pedestrian, ambulance and police comes, crash happens.

All emergent gameplay moments from the different vehicle and NPC AI interacting.

 

[Wildebeest]

It's pure AI.

Someone shooting in the street in GTA, hits a car by accident, car drives into a pedestrian, ambulance and police comes, crash happens.

All emergent gameplay moments from the different vehicle and NPC AI interacting.

The ambulance spawning is a simple trigger, not AI. Things crashing into each other all the time is a result of simple behaviour not advanced behaviour, unless there is some advanced "AI Director" in charge to direct a specific level of mayhem for dramatic purposes. But then it would NOT be emergent behaviour because it would be managed mayhem and not mayhem created as a result of simple rules. The question in GTA is how much can the player learn how the systems interact to manipulate them to create a specific outcome, which would make it emergent gameplay rather than a system which displays emergent behaviour.

 

[GigaBowser]

The ambulance spawning is a simple trigger, not AI. Things crashing into each other all the time is a result of simple behaviour not advanced behaviour, unless there is some advanced "AI Director" in charge to direct a specific level of mayhem for dramatic purposes. But then it would NOT be emergent behaviour because it would be managed mayhem and not mayhem created as a result of simple rules. The question in GTA is how much can the player learn how the systems interact to manipulate them to create a specific outcome, which would make it emergent gameplay rather than a system which displays emergent behaviour.

 

[Wildebeest]

1. Emergent behaviour is when complex behaviour emerges from interactions between systems which are more simple than the complex outcome. This is what it is.
2. The more "advanced" an AI is, the less simple the rules are, so the less its behaviour can be called "emergent behaviour". If a car in a game can be programmed well enough to never crash, then it becomes not a simple independent behaviour for it to decide to crash or not depending on what would be the most awesome thing for the player to see.
3. The least "emergent" behaviour is when everything is scripted in advance to run a certain way and "directed" so the small behaviour fits to the plan of what the designer says should happen in terms of user experience, no matter what.

 

[AncientOrigin]

For me I name a game wharves not on the list but will be way better for me than any of those games.That game is Dragons Dogma 2 will destroy all other rpg open world games in every aspect going from the first one.But I am excited for Starfield.

 

[remember_spinal]

I’m looking forward to see what new ideas Kojima introduces in Death Stranding 2. He’s always thinking up new game mechanics

 

[kyliethicc]

Death Stranding 2

 

[Rat Rage]

Zelda's open world gameplay is gonna be sick.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

My guess for the 2023 GOTY is my choice.

 

[Represent.]

GTA 6 and it’s not even REMOTELY close

 

[EDMIX]

I think both GTA and Starfield (based on Fallout and Elder Scrolls) by default will be up there.

Zelda? lol Nahhhhhh

Using this logic, might as well list those AC open world RPGs, they literally offer more in regards to "emergent" worlds as its not like in Zelda they have you getting tattoos and building bases and a bunch of other RPG type stuff, in fact Zelda is lessor in most of those areas.

So in terms of ideas that push the industry forward, Ubisoft, Rockstar and Bethesda have strong track records regarding this with open worlds, AI, interactivity etc Nothing against Zelda, but if you have to take so many pages out of AC's playbook, it is Ubisoft that is pushing the industry forward in that respect and Nintendo following, not leading.

GTA or Rockstar in general has always had a strong influence in this as their games push those ideas a great deal, from the land, air and sea approach in those games, to the deep NPC behavior in RDR2 in regards to NPCs literally have daily behaviors where you can follow (very Bethesda of them btw), their games and Bethesda's games literally do shit, that other games CLAIM and still fail to do (lolz CP2077)

Watchdogs series in hindsight does so many things well in theses areas, I think folks only realize this when they see how badly CP2077 failed to deliver on most of what they claimed. Black out cities, hacking ATMs, opening bridges and changing street lights to fuck up the cops driving....cops driving lol a train system that goes thru the whole city where you can even fuck with that too by hacking. So my point is simple, if the things many are asking for from another IP...exist already from a different IP, how can this new game push anything forward if its failing at dated ideas?

Same with Zelda, nothing against it, but its chasing the AC titles and doing a formula that AC simply does better with more interaction with its world. So we can wait for Zelda to see if they've copied enough features lol orrrrrr we can just play the new AC open world RPG that we already know will have more features.... I'm doubtful Link will be out here building towns, camps, bases, getting tats, getting drunk etc lol

The teams that have always pushed those ideas, will continue to do so in the future with their open world titles. I simply don't see Ubisoft, Rockstar or Bethesda taking any steps back regarding those ideas.

 

[Pasta la Vista]

Despite what your prefrence is, expectations are high for all of them. They should be. These games are all coming from that pedigree that has defined genres over the years.

 

[gaming_again]

Good thread. Really interesting responses.

 

[IDKFA]

Zelda games do nothing for me, so I can't comment on the next Zelda game.

Starfield has potential, but how big are these 1000 planets going to be and what sort of content will be on each planet? I can't imagine each planet will have a unique map the size of Skyrim, complete with multiple cities or buildings to explore.

GTA 6 is the clear answer. Rockstar are still the kings of open world games and I don't see that changing with GTA6.

 

[Moses85]

GTA 6 with any doubt!

 

[Bulletbrain]

Some of the examples given here are honestly a bit disappointing. Random GTA shootout an example of notable emergent gameplay? Really?

Emergent gameplay is having robust gameplay systems that the player can leverage at their discretion to achieve an objective. Modern GTA and RDR2 are actually instances where emergent gameplay takes a far far back seat to "cinematic" aka scripted gameplay. Especially in missions. Player choice is very very limited here.

But GTA was (back in the day) and still could be a standard bearer for emergent gameplay. Imagine missions that task you with breaking someone out from a county prison. Modern GTA would spell out what to do. But imagine where the game let the player work out what and how to go about the mission. Player can break into a construction yard, steal a heavy construction vehicle and ram the weak wall (if destructible environments systems are in place). Player can position a fast gateway vehicle nearby in advance with another vehicles(s) as backup at specific locations to fool the cops. Or there could be disguise systems which then the player can use (steal a cop car and cop uniform) and infiltrate the station. None of these should be spelled out; it's just upto the player to work out what systems they can use to solve the problem.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

GTA will be open world and the map will be pretty to look at but that's it. GTA maps have always been static playgrounds. Looks great but you need to use your imagination if you want to have fun in it. It's only with GTA Online has the actual game map and gameplay improved. If you only want to play the single player stuff it'll be the same old lifeless map. Plus Rockstar won't want to shake things up too much. People buy the game to drive/fly around, go on rampages, and get chased by cops.

Tears of the Kingdom can only build upon Breath of the Wild which single handedly raised the bar for any open world game. It'll be a huge task to surpass it but I'm sure Nintendo will pull it off. The floating islands in the sky already seem exciting and there are suggestions there will be underground caves.

Starfield I think will need to do something major to stand aside from Skyrim/Fallout and other space games like Elite Dangerous/No Mans Sky and maybe even Star Citizen. I have high hopes but we'll see.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

GTA is the king of emergent and it's not an RPG

ER has a problem with that statement.

 

[Fbh]

Starfield I expect will have emergent gameplay in regards to quests and how to solve them, but I don't expect a whole lot of interactivity from the world itself (beyond the base building)
Zelda I expect will have emergent gameplay in regards to the world and how to interact with it by combining the strong foundation of BotW and adding new mechanics and tools, but I don't expect much from the actual quest design.
GTA I expect will blow the other 2 out of the water in regards to presentation and attention to detail but it will have the same terrible gameplay and quest design of every recent open world Rockstar game.

 

[damidu]

considering first game this is where zelda shines hands down

wouldn’t consider gta emergent if it’ll be anything like rdr. basically a mission structure constraining you tighter than the most linear walking simulators.
even the so called “random encounters” were totally scripted and over repeated.