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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
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The Artisan
Member
I don't think Jon has done enough to sympathize with her. Right now he's the only family she has.
I think Sansa knows how to play in the dark side but does not embrace it like Cersei does.
BossDarkseid
Member
It's Winter.
Azor Ahai might have returned.
The pieces are together. The White Walkers could just let Westeros burn as the infighting tears the realm asunder, but with what might be the longest Winter ever descending upon the land they can run amok, unchecked. As much as I enjoyed the slightly snappier pacing this season - logic be damned - I'll be annoyed if Jon doesn't hear about Bran next episode via Raven or the Nights Watch escorting him to Winterfell.
I get the need for pacing in character arcs but when Euron built a fleet and sailed round the continent inbetween seasons, and may have sailed halfway back again, I feel like they could get Bran several hundred miles south of the wall, or send a Raven. I need the Arya and Jon reunion at somepoint though, its been so long since they've been friends together.
Edit: I think the problem is the White Walkers can do things at their own pace, yet we've been told they are an ever present spectre since the first scene of the first episode and the Night's King just seems to have been taking his army on a cross country run for 7 seasons.
She knows she is being played by LF to some degree, and it frustrates her that what he is saying is kinda right, as per how she feels.
Aka she sees no reason why being a woman would prevent her from ruling Winterfell, in spite of saying the opposite to Jon's face (while he himself has no such pretense, busy as he is to try to find a way to save the human race).
She can't help resenting Jon for it, and she hates feeling that way, and that LF can see through it.
No I agree. Won't be the same. But its the third time she is going to be with someone she doesn't like at all. The only common thing and enemy now is to stop the Army of the Dead by joining up with Daenny by first killing the Lannisters beside Tyrion and then prepare for massive war at the Wall.
That probably means that humanity survives but at a high cost. Mainly they defeat the White Walkers but the majority of the living die and the cities are ruined. Basically a clean slate, time to rebuild a civilisation.
Having said that though, I would absolutely love a dark ending like the White Walkers winning and Westeros being lost forever, with the remaining living fleeing East.
jediyoshi
Member
She breaks it down in her scene with Brienne. She doesn't want Littlefinger there because a combination of the emotional and manipulative baggage, but they need his forces and she knows the big reason he's actually there is for her.
The Artisan
Member
she doesn't hate Robin the way she hated Joffrey and Ramsey though. She was warm to the idea of marrying him and even though they didn't get along at first, Robin gave the order for the Knights of the Vale to depart for the battle of the bastards.
Sansa also has the knowledge of Carcetti killing his mother.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Even if Westeros falls, the world and humanity arent through, just that horrible continent. We've already seen White Walkers cant swim, so the other places all seem to be safe.
Triggerhappytel
Member
Did the Tyrells murder Joffrey? I could have sworn the man who poisoned his wine was on the payroll of Littlefinger?
EDIT - just read up on it, and you are right. Didn't recall Olenna Tyrell being behind that plot.
Pretty sure Olenna and Littlefinger collaborated on that one.
Olenna conspired with Littlefinger to assassinate him. Littlefinger provided the poison hidden on Sansa's jewellery, which Olenna took and put in Joffrey's goblet. They left Tyrion (and Sansa, but they did get her out) to take the blame.
Ollena tells Margery "like I was going to let you be married to that monster"
Triggerhappytel
Member
I was going to, but I can't make myself wait! This is the first time I've watched a season as it's been broadcast (my wife and I only started watching about a year ago), and I want to be in on the conversation as it happens. Although I much prefer binging stuff than watching it week-by-week.
I watched Westworld as it aired and the people here and on Reddit figured out every single twist before it aired, kinda ruined it IMO.
It was pretty good film making to actually show Olenna do it, too. It's subtle but the whole act is on camera - Olenna comes over to talk to Sansa, adjusts her jewelry as she's talking (taking the poisoned jewel), then plunks it in the chalice.
I think it makes sense and really hope that's the direction they go, rather than have Sansa continue being victimized and used. They've clearly set up that Baelish has a weakness for Sansa. Maybe his only weakness. Both in his feelings for her and in that he probably underestimates her. Littlefinger is most likely going down at some point and Sansa would be the perfect vehicle for that.
The Artisan
Member
I've asked this a few times even though it could just be an overlooked error or nothing at all: does cersei still go by baratheon or is it cersei lannister now? if it is the latter, why does the opening credits still have a stag on king's landing?
Crowned as Lannister, but strictly speaking she's Baratheon. Either sigil would be "correct" really.
Rad Shadow
Banned
It would be unbelievably boring if all the good guys live and all the bad guys lose in the end.
Littlefinger seems like such a good choice as the roach who always hides and survives.
They can't kill him off. It'd be so bleh.
All the good villains are gone. There's only a few left. More good guys need to get axed.
Littlefinger seems like such a good choice as the roach who always hides and survives.
They can't kill him off. It'd be so bleh.
All the good villains are gone. There's only a few left. More good guys need to get axed.
Nameless
Member
The 'sweet' is someone we like makes it back to Essos
The Artisan
Member
The Throne room is decorated with the lion sigil, all the kingsguard are sporting new armor, so it would make more sense for the lion to be correct. Cornballer just showed the raven and as Queen she goes by Lannister
So she is going full on Lannister. The Baratheon legacy is over.
Cersei is the most evil character of all though.
Nameless
Member
What? Playing the game to win and/or survive doesn't make her evil just because she happens to have conflicting interests with fan favorites. Sure she's vengeful, spiteful, and especially ruthless towards those who challenge her, but was was Tywin.
The Artisan
Member
dude, she's fucking evil. i'm sure this can be brought down to general consensus.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Nameless
Member
Joffrey, Ramsay, Night King -- these are evil characters. Cersei is and always has been more complex. Simply distilling her character down to 'evil' ignores a lot the nuance and layers that make her so fascinating.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
That title really makes getting a decent message through ravens difficult.
The Artisan
Member
I've stated before that I know a lot of people call Sam & Gilly's arcs boring, but, also while I was thinking of the episode, I realized that they never really delve that deep on the life of a maester; or the making of one.
The only problem I have with Sam is that I think his actor is the worst on the show. It has been a little better in the premier but even in that episode the way he says "who" normally, right after being startled by a greyscale arm just kinda ruined the scene a little for me.
The Artisan
Member
I ain't saying she ain't layered or not fascinating, she certainly is. But, as Horatio Carrillo from Narcos once said, "If you support evil, you are evil."
Cersei stood by as Joffrey did the evil shit as he pleased. She ordered the killing of probably 100+ people last season. She is fucking evil and that's that.
edit: sorry for double post
CloudStrife_ca
Member
I feel like Sansa is going to be the next Cersei, we've seen several characters be redeemed, Jamie, The Hound (although arguably The Hound has always been a decent guy at heart, he was just under the Lannister employ)
So why couldn't a good character turn to the dark side so to speak, Sansa was sporting the same hairstyle as Cersei as she told Jon "I learned a great deal from her" Sansa has enough reason to turn. Throughout the show shes gone from child, a girly girl, wanting to marry the king, to seeing her father killed, being taunted over her brothers death, being abused, sold out, tortured throughout pretty much the whole series... thats how to create a monster.
The one thing that may keep her grounded would be seeing Arya was still alive and deadly.
So why couldn't a good character turn to the dark side so to speak, Sansa was sporting the same hairstyle as Cersei as she told Jon "I learned a great deal from her" Sansa has enough reason to turn. Throughout the show shes gone from child, a girly girl, wanting to marry the king, to seeing her father killed, being taunted over her brothers death, being abused, sold out, tortured throughout pretty much the whole series... thats how to create a monster.
The one thing that may keep her grounded would be seeing Arya was still alive and deadly.
The Artisan
Member
I can't see Sansa wanting to become what ruined her life in the first place. But, who knows.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Isnt that the poetry of real life though? A lot of people turn into the thing they hate.
The Artisan
Member
it's definitely possible, yeah. a lot of people said Sansa reminded them of Cersei in the premier but I'm hoping she doesn't go that far.
I could wait but I can't dodge spoilers for 2 months. With Game of Thrones specifically people seem to assume everyone's seen every episode on day 1 and blurt spoilers everywhere.
ComputerBlue
Member
There isn't enough time for Sansas character to develop enough to become the next Cersei. She might have some similarities but its a result of her surroundings, bit of Stark, bit of Lannister, bit of Baelish.
Sansa's entire thing since the start of the show has been "I'm unhappy where I'm currently at". So this is more or less just par for the course. My purely speculative thought into why she's not happy this time is that she wishes she could march down to Kings Landing and personally murder Cersei, but knows she cant and that frustrates her and it probably pisses her off that Jon doesn't give a shit about Cersei right now.
I'm also in the camp that thinks Sansa is turning into Neo Cersei. She's had too many bad influences around her for too long and probably thinks being a cold hearted killer is the only way to make it. This is probably what Littlefinger wants, too - a version of Cersei that's more or less on his side, so he can get closer to the Throne
Pagusas
Elden Member
Why does Sansa hate the Cersei so much? I get the queen wasnt "nice" to her, but she also wasnt the one who lopped off Neds head, she wasnt the one who made her stare at her dead fathers head, she wasnt the one who mentally tortured her, she wasnt the one who made her marry Tyrion. Like honestly if Cersei had it her way, Ned would still be alive (At Castle Black) and none of the bad stuff that happen to Sansa would have happened.
Hell the only reason Sansa even survived Kings Landing was that Cersei thought it wise to keep Sansa around.
The only thing I can think is Sansa is mad that Cersie wants her dead now, but thats because she looked guilty of murdering her son (which, honestly, she was unintentionally a part of, and did flee the scene....)
Hell the only reason Sansa even survived Kings Landing was that Cersei thought it wise to keep Sansa around.
The only thing I can think is Sansa is mad that Cersie wants her dead now, but thats because she looked guilty of murdering her son (which, honestly, she was unintentionally a part of, and did flee the scene....)
Nameless
Member
I feel like Dany has to be considered evil too if Cersei is.
Also she tried to reign Joffrey in and was visibly shaken when couldn't. And there was some collateral damage in the Sept bombing, but she took down people trying to do the same to her.
CloudStrife_ca
Member
I don't think anyone wants to see that but at the hands of the abuse shes suffered, its like someone who is actually abused becoming the abuser, which happens all the time in real life.
Atomic Playboy
Member
I mean, isn't all the shit she's gone through enough? She grew up with a worldview that everything was happy and roses and she was going to marry a prince and be happy, only to watch her dream prince order her father killed in front of her, then emotionally torture her personally for YEARS. Her brother and mother were killed, for all she knows all her family is dead save Jon, she was forced into two marriages she didn't want and brutally raped and tortured by one of her unwanted husbands. Life has pretty consistently shoveled shit in her face. She has zero reason to be happy just because she's back home and free.
The Artisan
Member
Dany's M.O has been to end slavery, whenever she sees abuse she puts a stop to it. She helps the common people as often as she can, whereas Cersei does the opposite; after Queen Margery annnounces all the leftover goes to the poor, Cersei changes the order for nothing more but to exercise the power she still has to rival Margery's. Cersei also ordered the killing of 100+ people, a lot of whom were probably innocent. Dany has never done that. She also mourns for the loss of her men/soldiers, Cersei doesn't care if anyone dies as everyone is expendable to her except her children.
What she and Cersei have in common is a sense of entitlement and that they hate being betrayed. But to say Dany is evil like Cersei? Fuck no.
yeah man like I said, who knows. I don't wanna see it happen but I do think it is definitely in the realm of possibility for this story.
The Artisan
Member
Jon Snow never asked or expected to become King in the north. If Bran returns, I'm sure he'd be happy to lay down his title and pass it to Bran, let alone he'll be overjoyed to see his brother again, alive.
edit: sorry for double post
More_Badass
Member
Did Tywin had a hand in it? I thought that was the implication
Bran would never accept becoming King in the North, even if some Lords would try to make him King. He is the three eyed raven and to him, that is far more important.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Being "King of the North" can't he say he is a Stark now?
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