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Game of Thrones *Tagged Book Spoilers, Please Read OP* |OT| Season 3 - Sundays on HBO

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D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
The thing is with Theon, unlike other characters, like Ned for example, Theon isn't betrayed. Everything that happens to him is the result of his own choices.
 
S

suzu

Member
I'm pretty sure I remember Theon alluding to stuff similar to the real father line, (ADWD)
except it was all in his own head and was about Robb instead of Ned. It was when he was reminiscing about his childhood at Winterfell.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
DrForester said:
The thing is with Theon, unlike other characters, like Ned for example, Theon isn't betrayed. Everything that happens to him is the result of his own choices.
Click to expand...
io3gX5MbbKYB.gif
 
H

Hystzen

Member
DrForester said:
Yeah, I'm imagining next week some numbers are thrown out about just how large the forces in Westeros are. Danny has made a good start, but 8,000 unmounted troops aren't nearly enough.
Click to expand...

Haven't they already mentioned before Rob has roughly 10K while Tywin has 20K or something similar

edit: Blu Ray mentions Rob has 20k and he is still outnumbered
 
A

Azih

Member
jett said:
No. Theon is several orders of magnitude more sympathetic in the show than in the books.
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I'd say that Theon ADWD SPOILAR
gets there in the books, but far later, and when he finally meets back up with Asha as Reek with the YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER YOUR NAME Line is pretty god damn redemptive.
 
F

Forsaken82

Member
Lin Siniang said:
I'm not sure whose more dumb, Catelyn or Edmure?

I really DON'T like any of the Tully's aside from Blackfish.
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I would say Edmure... The majority of dumb things Catelyn does is because she is trying to get her children back (not to mention her husband was killed recently, Her eldest is at war and Bran and Rickon are said to be dead). She isn't thinking clearly because of it. She is a grieving mother and widow. Edmure does stupid shit because he thinks he knows what hes doing.
 
F

Fey

Banned
Forsaken82 said:
The majority of dumb things Catelyn does is because she is trying to get her children back (not to mention her husband was killed recently, Her eldest is at war and Bran and Rickon are said to be dead). She isn't thinking clearly because of it. She is a grieving mother and widow.
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Lots of people seem to forget this. Catelyn's one and only motive for her actions is to get her family back together, and any rational thought is blinded by the fact that she thinks her husband and two youngest children are dead, with her remaining three children's lives in danger. Catelyn's acting like how any loving mother and widow would in her situation.
 
D

Dysun

Member
She acted rashly when she arrested Tyrion, she had just been to KL and known how tense everything was. Bran was crippled yes, but look at what befell them afterwards. It stems from that beginning and continues throughout that paints her in a negative light.
 
F

Fey

Banned
Dysun said:
She acted rashly when she arrested Tyrion, she had just been to KL and known how tense everything was. Bran was crippled yes, but look at what befell them afterwards. It stems from that beginning and continues throughout that paints her in a negative light.
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Well, it's not like she arrested him for no reason. Her childhood friend, someone she was sure she could trust, told her Tyrion ordered her son to be killed, and so when given the opportunity, she arrested him. I'm not saying it was a rational choice, but I don't think it was worse than decisions other characters have made. Ned's stupid decisions ultimately led to his death. asos/ffc/dwd
And so did Robb's bad decisions, which also included the end of his army and pretty much the end of the Stark's influence. Yet neither get as much hate as she does. Not to mention her choice to free Jaime ultimately led to his redemption and his turning on Cersei.

If Cat's decisions didn't go against the likeable and favourite characters of the series (or, if Jon was a dick, Tyrion was like Cersei, and Robb was like Joffrey ... basically what I mean is none of them are likeable characters) I doubt she'd get so much hate.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Fey said:
If Cat's decisions didn't go against the likeable and favourite characters of the series (or, if Jon was a dick, Tyrion was like Cersei, and Robb was like Joffrey ... basically what I mean is none of them are likeable characters) I doubt she'd get so much hate.
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This.

Also, freeing Jaime wasn't as stupid as people think. [ASoS]
In the book Robb acknowledges that he should have traded Jaime for Sansa way earlier, because Sansa is actually a more valuable political hostage than Jaime. Jaime is a great soldier, but he can't inherit anything, and he's only valuable because it pisses off Tywin that he's their captive. Robb says he could have married off Sansa to Highgarden and gained the Tyrells as allies and regrets not doing that. A lot of people forget this.

A lot of people also forget she's the one who advised him to not send Theon Greyjoy to Pike.

And how was Catelyn to know Lysa had turned batshit insane over the years or that Littlefinger had become the biggest schemer in Westeros? She trusted Littlefinger because he's her childhood friend (who always crushed on her), and she trusted Tyrion's custody with Lysa because she's her sister. People say she made stupid decisions, because they have the advantage of hindsight and they know things as the reader that Catelyn couldn't have possibly known. Hell, when I first read GoT, I didn't immediately suspect Littlefinger either until he mentioned the dagger belonging to the Imp, and I only knew that was a lie because we had been inside Tyrion's head in his POV chapters. Catelyn doesn't know Tyrion personally, how could she have known he was innocent?

Robb makes way more stupider decisions, but people still love him. Hmmmmm, sometimes you wonder...
 
K

Knoxcore

Member
brentech said:
Nope, none of Theon's journey is in the books.
I liked the scene. In the books you'd only feel kind of bad for him, but I think Martin did want you to.
Hearing him say "My real father lost his head at King’s Landing" was a good line that makes draws you to him, then seconds later...he's fucked
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I like it. It makes him that more tragic.
 
E

Eidan

Member
Morrigan Targaryen said:
This.

Also, freeing Jaime wasn't as stupid as people think. [ASoS]
In the book Robb acknowledges that he should have traded Jaime for Sansa way earlier, because Sansa is actually a more valuable political hostage than Jaime. Jaime is a great soldier, but he can't inherit anything, and he's only valuable because it pisses off Tywin that he's their captive. Robb says he could have married off Sansa to Highgarden and gained the Tyrells as allies and regrets not doing that. A lot of people forget this.

A lot of people also forget she's the one who advised him to not send Theon Greyjoy to Pike.

And how was Catelyn to know Lysa had turned batshit insane over the years or that Littlefinger had become the biggest schemer in Westeros? She trusted Littlefinger because he's her childhood friend (who always crushed on her), and she trusted Tyrion's custody with Lysa because she's her sister. People say she made stupid decisions, because they have the advantage of hindsight and they know things as the reader that Catelyn couldn't have possibly known. Hell, when I first read GoT, I didn't immediately suspect Littlefinger either until he mentioned the dagger belonging to the Imp, and I only knew that was a lie because we had been inside Tyrion's head in his POV chapters. Catelyn doesn't know Tyrion personally, how could she have known he was innocent?

Robb makes way more stupider decisions, but people still love him. Hmmmmm, sometimes you wonder...
Click to expand...

For once I agree with everything you said. Catelyn hate is way overblown.
 
S

Snake

Member
As far as I can tell Catelyn hate has its true roots in her slighting Jon and Tyrion. Ned makes a staggering number of poor decisions and no one hates him. Robb makes mistakes and no one hates him. Arya has all sorts of missed opportunities (the big one being names for Jaqen) and no one blames her. Maybe they dislike Cat's POV thoughts, but there's nothing there worthy of the hate she gets.

And of course for Showfolk, maybe some just don't like Michelle Fairley. I don't feel that way but at least that's understandable.
 
H

hoos30

Member
Fey said:
Lots of people seem to forget this. Catelyn's one and only motive for her actions is to get her family back together, and any rational thought is blinded by the fact that she thinks her husband and two youngest children are dead, with her remaining three children's lives in danger. Catelyn's acting like how any loving mother and widow would in her situation.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but releasing the Kingslayer is the OPPOSITE of what she should have done to get her remaining kids back. That's why everyone calls her dumb bitch.
 
pr0cs

pr0cs

Member
I don't hate Catelyn but personally I dreaded reading her chapters when I was digging through the books. She always comes off as so negative, so depressed, so broken and while I understand her heart-ache it did get old pretty quick.

I will say that Michelle Fairley does a great job with the content (original and tv series only). She's a great actress but then I love her accent so perhaps I tune out a lot of the negativity of her spoken content.

To be honest the show nailed the casting really well, the only actor that I'm not entirely enamored with is Headey but she's grown on me a lot from S1-2,3.
 
E

Eidan

Member
hoos30 said:
Yeah, but releasing the Kingslayer is the OPPOSITE of what she should have done to get her remaining kids back. That's why everyone calls her dumb bitch.
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It's weird that Catelyn would be labeled a "dumb bitch" for making what could be considered a poor decision, in a story filled with main characters who make poor decisions left and right.
 
T

tino

Banned
Loofy said:
I think headeys perfect since I hate her, and I hate her in the books too.
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I agreement. Also that little piece of shit. His casting is perfect.

The worse is Margaery Tyrell, I don't know why they make her so much older and uglier. So ugly.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
DrForester said:
Yeah, I'm imagining next week some numbers are thrown out about just how large the forces in Westeros are. Danny has made a good start, but 8,000 unmounted troops aren't nearly enough.
Click to expand...

Since season 1, my biggest problem with the show is how they fail to show the scope of everything. i would love a short exposition shot before every damn scene. show us kings landing, show us the wall, show us the armies in the war camps, always and always again until we're sick of it.
the ending of S03E04 is the first time we see an actual marching army, and people think its the biggest army in the world, simply because the other armies have never been shown (save renlys camp I think, once) and we were maybe told once and twice how big the numbers of the actual soldiers are. hell, even in the battle of the blackwater, you could think there fought maybe a thousand against a thousand. I know thats all a matter of budget, but its really the one thing that bothers me the most (next to the beanpole that rides). everything feels so narrow.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Most of the advice Catelyn gave Robb was very good. She made a giant mistake in freeing Jaime but overall the hate she receives is overblown.
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Eidan said:
It's weird that Catelyn would be labeled a "dumb bitch" for making what could be considered a poor decision, in a story filled with main characters who make poor decisions left and right.
Click to expand...
And it was only a "poor decision" because she had to go behind everyone's back. As I said,
Releasing him properly in exchange for Sansa would have been a very good decision politically. Even Robb acknowledges it later.

tino said:
The worse is Margaery Tyrell, I don't know why they make her so much older and uglier. So ugly.
Click to expand...

WTF
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
Another thing about Catelyn's one major mistake is that (ASOS/ADWD spoiler):
it effectively lost the war for the North. Edmure's folly certainly lost the war from a military perspective, but it's hard to see Tywin instigating plans to assassinate Robb if Jaime was still in Stark hands. Considering Robb's plan was to head north and re-capture Winterfell and his lost territory, it would have been very hard for the Lannisters to defeat him; the Riverlands would be fucked, but the Lannisters couldn't capture the North. He could have replenished his army significantly and acquired ships (White Harbor) just as the Iron Born began assaulting the south. And if he held out long enough...Aegon would arrive in the south to further split Lannister/Tyrell forces.

While I don't think he could have outright won, he might have been able to sue for peace (exchanging Jaime for Sansa).
 
D

Dysun

Member
PhoenixPause said:
Another thing about Catelyn's one major mistake is that (ASOS/ADWD spoiler):
it effectively lost the war for the North. Edmure's folly certainly lost the war from a military perspective, but it's hard to see Tywin instigating plans to assassinate Robb if Jaime was still in Stark hands. Considering Robb's plan was to head north and re-capture Winterfell and his lost territory, it would have been very hard for the Lannisters to defeat him; the Riverlands would be fucked, but the Lannisters couldn't capture the North. He could have replenished his army significantly and acquired ships (White Harbor) just as the Iron Born began assaulting the south. And if he held out long enough...Aegon would arrive in the south to further split Lannister/Tyrell forces.

While I don't think he could have outright won, he might have been able to sue for peace (exchanging Jaime for Sansa).
Click to expand...

It also led to mutiny in the ranks and Robb having to behead Karstark and lose those forces, it flies in the face of his war effort and led to his end. Certainly not the only bad decision made in the series, but it had the most dramatic end
 
E

Eidan

Member
PhoenixPause said:
Another thing about Catelyn's one major mistake is that (ASOS/ADWD spoiler):
it effectively lost the war for the North. Edmure's folly certainly lost the war from a military perspective, but it's hard to see Tywin instigating plans to assassinate Robb if Jaime was still in Stark hands. Considering Robb's plan was to head north and re-capture Winterfell and his lost territory, it would have been very hard for the Lannisters to defeat him; the Riverlands would be fucked, but the Lannisters couldn't capture the North. He could have replenished his army significantly and acquired ships (White Harbor) just as the Iron Born began assaulting the south. And if he held out long enough...Aegon would arrive in the south to further split Lannister/Tyrell forces.

While I don't think he could have outright won, he might have been able to sue for peace (exchanging Jaime for Sansa).
Click to expand...

I dunno. ASOS
It seems odd to place the North's loss squarely on Catelyn's shoulders. You say things would've been different if she had not released Jaime. True. But things would have played differently if Edmure hadn't fucked up, and allowed Tywin's forces to save King's Landing from Stannis. Things would have been different if Robb hadn't idiotically broken his marriage vows. What makes her folly so much worse than there's?
 
R

Raist

Banned
PhoenixPause said:
Another thing about Catelyn's one major mistake is that (ASOS/ADWD spoiler):
it effectively lost the war for the North. Edmure's folly certainly lost the war from a military perspective, but it's hard to see Tywin instigating plans to assassinate Robb if Jaime was still in Stark hands. Considering Robb's plan was to head north and re-capture Winterfell and his lost territory, it would have been very hard for the Lannisters to defeat him; the Riverlands would be fucked, but the Lannisters couldn't capture the North. He could have replenished his army significantly and acquired ships (White Harbor) just as the Iron Born began assaulting the south. And if he held out long enough...Aegon would arrive in the south to further split Lannister/Tyrell forces.

While I don't think he could have outright won, he might have been able to sue for peace (exchanging Jaime for Sansa).
Click to expand...

Every decision she makes is basically the worst. Every. Single. One of them.
 
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