Freezie KO
Banned
This too. Forgot to mention it. We shouldn't really incentivize law enforcement to lock up innocent people.
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How can White people (EU+US) try to heal the wounds inflicted upon Black people?
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This too. Forgot to mention it. We shouldn't really incentivize law enforcement to lock up innocent people.
Yeah, this is how you would actually go about fixing it in the long term.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
I disagree with the bolded. Access to education is a socio-economic issue, not a race or cultural one. There are poor white, hispanic, asian, etc. people who aren't able to poke their head out of the lower class bracket due to the system currently in place. The focus should be affordable/free education for all. But the elite wouldn't want that, as knowledge is power. It disproportionately targets black people in the sense that many are in poverty, but education is the best tool for lifting people out of that rut and increasing comfort of living. I just can't agree with only black people getting free educaiton, as much of society has become integrated based on socio-economic status these days. Yes, there are hubs nation-wide of enclaves based on ethnicity and such, but still.
Black history and slavery is taught in public schools (even though some elected racists sometimes try to prevent it along with evolution), as is the Native American slaughtering and Japanese-American imprisonment. Children are not inherently racist, and this has had a good impact on understanding and cooperation among different races. I mean the US has made GREAT progress when you look back even just 50 years. It is far, far from equal, but it's getting better with each generation.
I agree with healthcare for all. And ending the drug war would be HUGE, as latent racism among police (getting better but still generations away from being equal treatment, if ever) and racial targeting completely fragments some of the black community in trying grow outward from the middle class or reach the upper class.
The thing about racism is it will never officially go away. Perceived physical differences between humans will always spark conflict, the only thing people can do is educate (especially the history) and promote empathy and understanding. That would go very far if practiced completely and globally and mitigate some of the damage done(or at least prevent some of it from getting worse).
Also, giving land away is a strange topic to analyze in this context. Native Americans were given land because colonists literally stole it from them. Even then, this actually has separated them more from the rest of society. There's a lack of education in huge numbers of Indians on reservations along with rampant poverty, alcoholism, etc. I know you don't mean giving black people reservations or anything, but I feel the only land left to give would pretty much transition into just that. A separate community forming on land that no one wants, and missing out on the benefits of physical integration with society (while hopefully maintaining cultural duality of course, which is easier to do as time goes on).
This. The idea that some spout about racism being gone is ridiculous. Shoot I don't think anyone would be able to say that earnestly even in 200 years, or maybe ever.
John Kowalski
Banned
I have been thinking lately that we have to somehow grow a system of paradigms that can work out these sort of institutionally discriminatory social realities that can adapt itself to different contexts and needs. Without intending to diminish any specific struggle, i think there is an exaggerated effort in studying specific cases and too little effort in understanding the core elements of this phenomenon than could help similar situations but with different agents in other contexts around the world.
Other than that, i think marketing is a very powerful tool that can expand humanitarian concerns effectively to a bigger audience, and god knows marketeers are damn good at spreading awareness.
Other than that, i think marketing is a very powerful tool that can expand humanitarian concerns effectively to a bigger audience, and god knows marketeers are damn good at spreading awareness.
You are masterful in your idiocy, across both gaming side and OT. I'm impressed.
Things have already changed for the better, and they continue to. Despite us all being connected 24/7 and every personal incident being "breaking news" now, society's views in general are becoming more and more inclusive.
Giving benefits to one group out of many is not the answer and won't accomplish anything for society as a whole except draw even stronger lines between "us" and "them". As mentioned earlier, time and empathy will eventually smooth this stuff over (whether discussing race, gender, sexuality, religion, or whatever else). Things will never be perfect, because everybody's an asshole sometimes, but that's pretty much exactly the wrong way to fix things.
family_guy
Member
I don't think there's much that can be done about the current situation when concerning adults. However they'll get old and eventually die so best to focus on sending the right message to our children so that their generation does better.
He's gone and not coming back. Let's focus on the discussion at hand, please.
Angelus Errare
Banned
John Kowalski
Banned
That would only effectively diminish black culture into irrelevance. I won't have an opinion on whether intercultural peace requires the unification of those cultures, but i bet that would piss off quite a lot of people.
Sorry if that wasn't your point.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
In addition to what other people have said in here, supporting local black businesses, artists, and rights groups.
soundahfekz
Member
Empathy is the essential building block to major progress. Though you might not understand my perspective fully, it goes a long way when you've made the effort to understand the adversity I go through due to the color of my skin.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I don't think he's necessarily speaking on cultural.
John Kowalski
Banned
Oh, you're right.
Chie Satonaka
Member
I both agree and disagree here. I do agree that everyone should have access to free or affordable higher education, but we're not talking about poor people of other races. We're talking about how we can heal the wounds inflicted on black people. And considering that reperations (or any of the things I advocate for, but especially reperations) isn't going to happen, the best way to begin dealing with upward mobility is going to be through education and training. Assuming this hypothetical, if black people still don't have any money to pay for it, then nothing changes. Additionally, saddling someone down with a ton of debt after they graduate is an issue now, let alone if we were discussing it within the parameters of this hypothetical scenario.
But yes, education for all would solve this problem in the long term. The joke here is that if we provided everyone with a chance to get free high quality education, that would help black people while also not looking like a race based "handout" because everyone would be able to take advantage of it. I'd imagine there wouldn't be as much pushback, but as you said, knowledge is power, so the elite would fight it to the death.
Really, this thread is the worst kind of window wishing because people aren't even willing to admit there's a fucking problem, and I'm not convinced that's ever going to change.
I'm in Big Brothers Big Sisters and the only person I can relate to directly is my little in that program.
Whip smart kid. As smart as I was at his age.
GPA isn't super great in high school, certainly worse than mine. Probably going to have a hard time getting into a good school, certainly not the school I went to.
Then I look at his circumstances:
His mom is absolutely amazing, but has to work 2 jobs to support him. So she isn't home a lot, and he is kind of left to his own devices which isn't always on task.
His dad is MIA, so no help there.
His phone and power get turned off on the regular.
He can't go outside his apartment at night because it is dangerous.
His mom got him into a really good public school to keep him away from dangerous elements, but now he is competing directly with kids who have a ton of advantages he won't.
Early in school he wasn't in good schools and spent most of his time being trained to take standardized tests and not actually learning.
He's busting the curve for his situation, and it STILL won't be enough to get him where I was. He is having to work a hell of a lot harder than I did and will come up short.
I wish I knew what the answer was, but it breaks my heart when I look at the situation. I'm afraid my heartfelt letter is only going to get him so far in the admissions process.
Whip smart kid. As smart as I was at his age.
GPA isn't super great in high school, certainly worse than mine. Probably going to have a hard time getting into a good school, certainly not the school I went to.
Then I look at his circumstances:
His mom is absolutely amazing, but has to work 2 jobs to support him. So she isn't home a lot, and he is kind of left to his own devices which isn't always on task.
His dad is MIA, so no help there.
His phone and power get turned off on the regular.
He can't go outside his apartment at night because it is dangerous.
His mom got him into a really good public school to keep him away from dangerous elements, but now he is competing directly with kids who have a ton of advantages he won't.
Early in school he wasn't in good schools and spent most of his time being trained to take standardized tests and not actually learning.
He's busting the curve for his situation, and it STILL won't be enough to get him where I was. He is having to work a hell of a lot harder than I did and will come up short.
I wish I knew what the answer was, but it breaks my heart when I look at the situation. I'm afraid my heartfelt letter is only going to get him so far in the admissions process.
speculawyer
Member
Just don't be an asshole. aka The golden rule.
People have to accept that I. Racism is still around II. Even if you yourself did not cause racism, racism has a lingering effect. So this idea that everyone born in the last 20 years should just get over it are missing the point.
So yeah those saying empathy are spot on. But I also think there needs to be a drastic change in perspective. I know far too many people who were raised to not see skin color, only to feel angry later in life since they didn't cause racism etc. etc.
So yeah those saying empathy are spot on. But I also think there needs to be a drastic change in perspective. I know far too many people who were raised to not see skin color, only to feel angry later in life since they didn't cause racism etc. etc.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Acknowledging that racism still exists would be a good start, I hear so many people say Racism is GONE forever and that's simply not true.
dapperbandit
Banned
Reparations...
Who pays?
How much?
Who is paid?
Seems odious to me.
Also; while affirmative action does give black people a leg up it already leads to friction and resentment. Expanding that policy would foster more of the same. Controversial to say the least.
Reform of the courts and police is a good idea.
Secession is a laughably bad idea that the Klu Klux Klan would be in favour of.
It's an answer that pleases no one but I think time is the key. Not just time but specifically the passing of generations. That's not a "hurry up and die, boomers!" sentiment because that attitude is gross. But by the time today's 18-25 year olds are 48-55 year olds I think a different standard will be the norm.
Who pays?
How much?
Who is paid?
Seems odious to me.
Also; while affirmative action does give black people a leg up it already leads to friction and resentment. Expanding that policy would foster more of the same. Controversial to say the least.
Reform of the courts and police is a good idea.
Secession is a laughably bad idea that the Klu Klux Klan would be in favour of.
It's an answer that pleases no one but I think time is the key. Not just time but specifically the passing of generations. That's not a "hurry up and die, boomers!" sentiment because that attitude is gross. But by the time today's 18-25 year olds are 48-55 year olds I think a different standard will be the norm.
This is the one, true solution. I'm a ginger, and my sister married a black man. I'm jealous of my two nephews' complexion.
Also worth mentioning that while my parents were cool with my now brother-in-law, the grandparents were still holding on to that old school racism. All that shit flew out the window when the kids were born. Hard to direct those kinds of prejudices against a babby I suppose.
Everybody pick a partner of a different race and get bizay so that our great grandchildren won't have to waste their time with racial nonsense.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Eh the whole mixing thing just introduces a new issue; discrimination based on lightness/darkness within that universal complexion. Discrimination based on how much of X you are versus someone else.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Improve the social and economic barriers that affect us disproportionately. Make things fair and equal for all, period. No matter the race or gender. I doubt this is something that will be done in this working generation.
Speaking as a Black dude, we can have Whites punished and made to feel guilty for the ramifications of slavery and their privilege as much as we want, but that ultimately won't solve anything (I personally don't think that's the right approach because it would only fuel their reasons for resentment, hostility or defensiveness towards Blacks if such traits were already present, and then we'd be back to square one.) As people more or less mentioned above, It all come from the mindset of how people think about race (well Blacks in this case), and it will take generations more work of stressing equality among races for racial bias to become less of a collective idea and more of a fringe radical thing a few people may express. And it goes both ways, because on the other end, a lot of Blacks are still hostile and mistrusting of White people due to what went down in the past. That's just how fucked up the repercussions of the slavery era are.
Short term, I think stressing for equality in schools, homes, jobs, etc. accessibility wise and finance wise is what we can immediately work to improve, because that feeds into the mindset people develop about the equality of races and vice versa. I live in Chicagoland, and rampant segregation has long been problematic here. As such, you can clearly see the makeup of the racial bias of the city from the neighborhood bias.
Short term, I think stressing for equality in schools, homes, jobs, etc. accessibility wise and finance wise is what we can immediately work to improve, because that feeds into the mindset people develop about the equality of races and vice versa. I live in Chicagoland, and rampant segregation has long been problematic here. As such, you can clearly see the makeup of the racial bias of the city from the neighborhood bias.
Outside of maintaining a social consciousness that doesn't tolerate racial intolerance, the best thing that can be done to remove the distortion past injustice has left would be to solve the social mobility problem.
Lessen the impact of wealth on education, and reduce the volume of wealth which is inheritable.
Lessen the impact of wealth on education, and reduce the volume of wealth which is inheritable.
Slavery and colonialism set blacks and countless other minorities back hundreds of years, and almost daily (I work in economic development) I think of the cultural and intellectual advancement that has been lost because of it. To me, it was the biggest tragedy of human existence, worsened by the fact that many Europeans didn't even see the people they were colonizing as human. Because this thread focuses on the wounds inflicted on black people, I'll use Africa as an example.
Virtually every area in Africa was claimed and exploited, their inhabitants uprooted and scattered across Europe and the America's as property. Traditional rulers were replaced by imperial leaders, tribe was pitted against tribe-resulting in animosity that continues to haunt Africa hundreds of years afterwards-, and resources were taken away to the profit of the Europeans. Racism was institutionalized across our governments and in the minds of both whites and blacks.
Slavery needs no introduction. Focusing only on America, this was the systemic taking away of black humanity and the process of turning a human into herd animal.
Sadly, though many have tried to declare racism dead, it simply exists on the periphery now, at times just as potent and destructive as it has been in the past. Ultimately the truth is that while we should indeed try to heal the wounds inflicted upon black people (and other minorities for that matter), it will never happen. There is nothing in the realm of realism that will balance that account. Through compassion, understanding, and vigorous effort, we can try and should try to help in every way possible. And this extends not only to blacks but to the impoverished husks left in our post-colonialism wake.
While the sins of the father are not something usually brought upon children's heads, this is something that cannot go without repair. This is not "white man's burden," this is not making whites feel guilty, this is humanity's moral obligation to right hundreds of years of wrong. With such prejudice built into our institutions and psyches, it is all we can do to continue to tear those barriers down in any way possible.
Completely different matter altogether, in both severity and relevance.
Virtually every area in Africa was claimed and exploited, their inhabitants uprooted and scattered across Europe and the America's as property. Traditional rulers were replaced by imperial leaders, tribe was pitted against tribe-resulting in animosity that continues to haunt Africa hundreds of years afterwards-, and resources were taken away to the profit of the Europeans. Racism was institutionalized across our governments and in the minds of both whites and blacks.
Slavery needs no introduction. Focusing only on America, this was the systemic taking away of black humanity and the process of turning a human into herd animal.
Sadly, though many have tried to declare racism dead, it simply exists on the periphery now, at times just as potent and destructive as it has been in the past. Ultimately the truth is that while we should indeed try to heal the wounds inflicted upon black people (and other minorities for that matter), it will never happen. There is nothing in the realm of realism that will balance that account. Through compassion, understanding, and vigorous effort, we can try and should try to help in every way possible. And this extends not only to blacks but to the impoverished husks left in our post-colonialism wake.
While the sins of the father are not something usually brought upon children's heads, this is something that cannot go without repair. This is not "white man's burden," this is not making whites feel guilty, this is humanity's moral obligation to right hundreds of years of wrong. With such prejudice built into our institutions and psyches, it is all we can do to continue to tear those barriers down in any way possible.
Completely different matter altogether, in both severity and relevance.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Let's start with the simple shit like
Stop walking across the street when you see me coming.
Stop clutching your purse. I didn't want it yesterday, don't want it today, won't want it tomorrow. It's ok.
Stop moving as far to the rear of the elevator as you can when riding it with me. I am not out to rob or hurt you.
Stop assuming you know me and my interests simply because I am Black.
Stop asking me to weigh in on shit from the "Black perspective".
Give me the benefit of the doubt in everyday life and don't judge me based on the worst examples.
Realize that all Black people aren't the same and stop trying to put me into a box.
That shit alone would go a LOOOOOOOOONG way for me.
Stop walking across the street when you see me coming.
Stop clutching your purse. I didn't want it yesterday, don't want it today, won't want it tomorrow. It's ok.
Stop moving as far to the rear of the elevator as you can when riding it with me. I am not out to rob or hurt you.
Stop assuming you know me and my interests simply because I am Black.
Stop asking me to weigh in on shit from the "Black perspective".
Give me the benefit of the doubt in everyday life and don't judge me based on the worst examples.
Realize that all Black people aren't the same and stop trying to put me into a box.
That shit alone would go a LOOOOOOOOONG way for me.
Germans did pay reparations, all over the place. You seem to be unaware that reparations after wars has been fairly common in human history. And it's not the sins of the fathers, it's the money and societal power accrued while blacks were held down and kept out of the race.
So, given that you brought up the holocaust, and given that Germany did pay reparations to Israel, why shouldn't we pay reparations to the descendants of slaves?
Not only Europe fucked over Africa. For centuries, Semitic cultures have played a role that should not be ignored.
As others have said, the most important thing is to make it clear that racism is still a very big problem. Black history is taught in the United States with the implication that racism ended in the 20th century. Only in 11th grade did any teacher touch on the reality of prejudice against African Americans.
The best way to start leveling the playing field is to abolish institutions and practices that keep the field uneven. Private prisons, felon disenfranchisement, mass incarceration, and the war on drugs need to end.
As others have said, the most important thing is to make it clear that racism is still a very big problem. Black history is taught in the United States with the implication that racism ended in the 20th century. Only in 11th grade did any teacher touch on the reality of prejudice against African Americans.
The best way to start leveling the playing field is to abolish institutions and practices that keep the field uneven. Private prisons, felon disenfranchisement, mass incarceration, and the war on drugs need to end.
As crazy as this sounds this might be a big part of the solution
n00bsauce87
Member
I just skimmed this thread, but I have a real answer. One that works.
If all of white people can treat us as half as well as Japanese Americans right after WWII, then that would be a start.
Civil Liberties Act of 1988
Reparations in this country was given before because lolz USA was being lolz USA and Japanese Americans was the terrorist flavor of the era against their will.
If they can do that for African Americans, it would be a start. I interned for National Japanese American Memorial Foundation and I knew several of the people who were in the forefront of getting that Act sign into Law with Ronald Reagan. This could be done again, but people in congress could never humble themselves to make a public and official apology for slavery (and this would be the least they could do).
If all of white people can treat us as half as well as Japanese Americans right after WWII, then that would be a start.
Civil Liberties Act of 1988
Reparations in this country was given before because lolz USA was being lolz USA and Japanese Americans was the terrorist flavor of the era against their will.
If they can do that for African Americans, it would be a start. I interned for National Japanese American Memorial Foundation and I knew several of the people who were in the forefront of getting that Act sign into Law with Ronald Reagan. This could be done again, but people in congress could never humble themselves to make a public and official apology for slavery (and this would be the least they could do).
You know how annoying it is when i see people say that? I don't assume you do that Entrement,You don't need to pat yourself on the back for not "refuting racism"
Your no better than "I'm not a racist."
As for the OP....uh there is really nothing you can do. I don't want some bullshit reparations, espcecially when the unforseen circumstances are pretty obvious to see. Affirmative action and free tax money sound more like campaign promises than legit desire to right a wrong as well.
The most powerful thing you could is treat black people fairly under the law. That's it imo. No double standard bullshit..
s_mirage
Member
Can you point me to where this is happening because I thought that was illegal in the UK.
Anyway, I really don't think it would be cool at all. It's a bad idea for two reasons:
Firstly, subjects like medicine typically require high grades for a bloody good reason: it is important to make sure the people practicing medicine are intellectually capable of the task. All students suffer if some are playing catch up from the very start, as the teaching will have to take that into account.
Secondly, it creates resentment on two fronts. It creates resentment of the people being favoured with lower grade requirements from everyone who wasn't, and it creates resentment from the people favoured who never know if they got their place through their own ability or as a hand out. Creating resentment is not a good way of making a harmonious society and positive discrimination is not equality. A person getting a university place over someone more qualified, based solely on their socioeconomic background, is wrong whichever way you cut it.
In terms of education, what we really need is to make sure that all schools are of a good standard, giving everyone equal opportunities to learn. Then we need to make sure there is absolutely no possibility of discrimination in the higher education selection process, though admittedly that is difficult in cases where universities require interviews..
I'm stealing that gif. That is hilarious.
BTW, great topic OP. I think about this all the time.
Like some of you guys said empathy is a vital first step in order to right the wrongs of the past (and present).
ape2man
Member
k, wrong comparison. i still think there is no debt the white man has to pay for the black holocaust. (i think this is a better comparison) do the egyptians still need to feel guilty for all the slaves the kept. or the italians.
When comes the time that its too long a go. Think that moment is specific to the person who did it. If my grand father was a slave owner, i still do not own anybody with the same color of my grandparent slaves anything.
am i getting off-topic?
Taking care of #11 by dating a black girl.
But seriously, this topic sounds like one of my ex's Social Work grad school papers. Basically, "How should we end racism?" As if there's one amazing idea that will stop even a single facet of it. There are things that are indirectly addressing certain issues, like media starting to portray black women in a more positive light when it comes to beauty standards, but it's still nowhere near how white women are portrayed.
In the end, you just have to take care of yourself and make sure you're doing right by people. Saying, "I don't see color" has always come across as offensive to me, because you're basically saying, "I see nothing that makes this person unique or different from the person next to them." The mindset I usually go with is, "This person is different from me, and here's what I really like about them." That comes down to race, gender, religion, hobbies, or any other culture or subculture out there.
But seriously, this topic sounds like one of my ex's Social Work grad school papers. Basically, "How should we end racism?" As if there's one amazing idea that will stop even a single facet of it. There are things that are indirectly addressing certain issues, like media starting to portray black women in a more positive light when it comes to beauty standards, but it's still nowhere near how white women are portrayed.
In the end, you just have to take care of yourself and make sure you're doing right by people. Saying, "I don't see color" has always come across as offensive to me, because you're basically saying, "I see nothing that makes this person unique or different from the person next to them." The mindset I usually go with is, "This person is different from me, and here's what I really like about them." That comes down to race, gender, religion, hobbies, or any other culture or subculture out there.
That's a great question. What about the blacks who ventured here from the Caribbean?
The argument for reparations for all blacks says blacks who come to America are subjected to the same type of racist treatment as multi generation blacks descended from southern slaves.
saltinekracka
Member
I'm really confused how an apology for slavery would facilitate any kind of forward movement? Who would be doing the apologizing?
Chie Satonaka
Member
It's interesting to me that you're okay with a group of people being significantly advantaged due to the sacrifices of another group, but not okay with the advantaged group giving something back to the disadvantaged one. "I don't owe you anything because I didn't do it" is the worst defense in regard to this issue. It's actually completely toxic to the discussion.
You have benefitted from the instution of slavery. You continue to do so right now. Why is it fair for you to reap the benefit but not not to give back to those who have been disadvantaged because of it?
Another question is, do all Black people suffer the same kind of institutional racism? A first-generation immigrant from a wealthy Ethiopian family will likely have a different experience from a working-class all-American guy whose family has lived in Louisiana for three hundred years.
If your grandfather benefitted financially from owning slaves, and passed that benefit on to you, why don't you owe that to the people that provided that benefit against their will? No one's saying your grandfather's actions are your fault, they're saying that you -- and me -- benefitted financially from our grandfather's crimes, and that it is reasonable for us to attempt to repay that theft, rather than pretend it didn't happen and that it didn't effect us. And what's really being asked is our government, which is still the same continuous entity that made it possible to do this, acknowledge and repay what was stolen from generations of black families. Just as they've repaid Japanese families, just as Germans repaid Israelis, Poles, etc.
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