How would that help end racism? How is that relevant at all?
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How can White people (EU+US) try to heal the wounds inflicted upon Black people?
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How would that help end racism? How is that relevant at all?
I imagine he eats a lot of sugary cereal.
And yet that is how most on the planet would see the issue. If this discussion is supposed to be realistic at all, and not just a total whteguilt party, it's a relevant POV
Laieon
Member
I think the key difference though is the generation that paid those reparations was the generation that allowed the holocaust to happen in the first place. The holocaust happened between 1941-1945, the initial reparations were paid between 1952-1966.
It makes sense for the generation that saw an event happen to be held accountable, I don't think it makes sense for their great-great-great grandchildren to have to pay for their actions though.
What does this have to do with what the OP asked? So what you're saying is racism is caused by black men having children and then running off?
So I was called a nigger all those times because some black guy somewhere didn't raise his kid... that makes perfect sense!
ramuh
Member
This is a true statement. As a white minority in Mississippi I was amazed at how some African-Americans treated African people very differently. A lot didn't like the first-generation African immigrants.
n64coder
Member
Good schools are part of helping someone be successful or not but I think parental involvement plays a larger role. Before my kids even went to school, they were already reading and doing simple math. As a parent, I stay on top of them to do their homework, give them access to extracurricular activities, give them tools (books, computers, field trips), encouragement & support, etc.
I think doing something about the high incarceration rate would help the family structure which would lead to better family support for the kids.
stufte
Member
Reparations won't end racism (and IMO, aren't what reparations should be about), so I'm unsure as to why non-slave descendants would receive reparations as well.
Reparations to descendants, especially educational reparations (free/low cost tuition) would be our best bet as a country. And a formal apology.
I'm a believer in forced integration of communities. (Maybe something like quotas for races, kind of like they do for money in some places,I think?)
I think that would address things like police occupation of communities (I don't think you could do that without significant blowback if you do that to the majority)
I think that also somewhat addresses the race disparity in education.
I think that would address things like police occupation of communities (I don't think you could do that without significant blowback if you do that to the majority)
I think that also somewhat addresses the race disparity in education.
What's the statute of limitations on kidnapping generations of people, breaking their families apart, making their education illegal, torturing and killing them? Furthermore, Germany is still in negotiations with holocaust survivors over stolen lands and goods, and as recently as 1999 created a fund for holocaust survivors to be paid by the German companies that stole their labor.
If we had paid real reparations to the descendants of slaves in the aftermath of the Civil War, I think you might have a point. The difference is, Germany did and we didn't. The debt doesn't disappear, it gets larger as the initial capital we stole accumulates interest over the years.
Chie Satonaka
Member
How the fuck did I not notice this? Jesus, why would you even bring that here? Shame on you.
You can hold the position of giving something back without being guilty. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
You don't have to feel guilty to know that you're privileged, understand that your privilege has helped benefit your group as a whole, and want to do something to level the playing field.
Education I think would be a great first step. Give people a reason to teach in inner-city public schools. I think it is harsh, but 'affirmative action' here would probably be a great help, have positive black role models in teachers in these schools.
I don't think that we should have a 'Black Person Class' but the education system needs to focus on more people in black history than just the civil rights movement. George Washington Carver is the only person I can think of, and that is just from my interest in peanut butter, not even school. But I'm sure all black students that went through school could list at least 10 'important' white people. And this needs to be nation-wide, not just in inner-cities.
This would show that there is more than trying to be an athlete or rap star, cause right now, if you discount Obama, that is basically all it looks like.
Ending the war on drugs would also help. It already has shown that it really seems to be an easy way to target minorities, especially blacks, and put them in prison.
There is a lot more, but these would be easily implemented.
I don't think that we should have a 'Black Person Class' but the education system needs to focus on more people in black history than just the civil rights movement. George Washington Carver is the only person I can think of, and that is just from my interest in peanut butter, not even school. But I'm sure all black students that went through school could list at least 10 'important' white people. And this needs to be nation-wide, not just in inner-cities.
This would show that there is more than trying to be an athlete or rap star, cause right now, if you discount Obama, that is basically all it looks like.
Ending the war on drugs would also help. It already has shown that it really seems to be an easy way to target minorities, especially blacks, and put them in prison.
There is a lot more, but these would be easily implemented.
from the OP
That's not how it is going to play out when you demand a (global?) tax aimed only at white people, for example.
reality doesn't work like that. Maybe in white guilt fantasies.
ape2man
Member
When are the atrocities a certain group did to a other group of people forgiven?
10 generations, 100, a 1000. I think this entire group mentality is a part of the problem of racism. should i feel guilty my great 10 generations a go grand pa owed slaves. No, should i be mad at the germans because they killed a few of my family members in concentration camps. No.
Thats my opinion, i do not mean any disrespect i just want to have a healthy rational discussion.
entremet
Member
Fair enough. Didn't intend to sound holier than thou.
One of the big expectations in the next 50 years is that Africa will increase population by 3 Billion people.
We could probably help out with that.
For helping people inside the US I feel like time will sort that out, its another waiting for baby boomers to die situation, just might take a few more generations.
We could probably help out with that.
For helping people inside the US I feel like time will sort that out, its another waiting for baby boomers to die situation, just might take a few more generations.
When they stop affecting the people harmed. As far as I know, Chinese people do not continue to suffer because of the Mongol conquests. English people aren't all poor because of the decades of Norse rule. Black people, by contrast, still feel the effects of slavery.
I try my best to advocate for equality (in all forms, not just racial equality), but more than once I've been confronted about just doing it because I "have to". I'm white and I know there is still racism and many other prejudices still around, that's why I want equality and that's why I'm willing to fight for it. I just don't know how to respond when people accuse me of this. Any help would be much appreciated!
More OT I think that the legal system and education need to be fixed so that minorities aren't targeted or not given the opportunities of white people.
More OT I think that the legal system and education need to be fixed so that minorities aren't targeted or not given the opportunities of white people.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Wait, do you want to tax people based on their race?
Using the Chinese is fairly bad, they aren't 'affected' by it, they are now racist as well. The Han Chinese pretty much run China and do a pretty good job of keeping the rest of the country 'down'.
Taxing based on race and reparations don't need to be the same thing. A tax cut for all or most Black people wouldn't harm white people at all, but have an important lasting impact.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Well aware that reality doesn't work that way. I'm providing solutions in a completely hypothetical bubble, because nothing in the OP is ever, ever going to happen, and I've indicated as such.
In order for any of this to actually be a thing, we'd first need to have the conversation without being dismissive about the plight of blacks, and we'd have to also have a complete shift in the way that people think about people of color in this country.
You're welcome to your opinion, and I'm not likely to change it. It's just interesting to me that you don't seem to have a problem taking advantage of the system that's been put into place to benefit you, but you take a hard no at doing something that would help to start closing the game (economically) in the short term. This is another reason why repirations is at the top of my list. Long term ideas are awesome, but what about the short term? People are suffering now. Having a system that will work out for people two generations down the road is great, but if we were serious about fixing this problem, there'd need to be short term solutions as well as long term ones.
Honestly...the things "white guilt people" come up with is ridiculous.
I would be more open for tax cuts for the poor in general (since all race's can suffer from poverty).
I don't. Governments should pay reparations. Depending on how they're structured, you might simply be able to cut other things, like defense to pay for them. If taxes have to be raised, they should be raised first on those who currently benefit the most from the contribution slavery provided to the economic engine of the country, in other words, the wealthiest citizens. And yes, that means wealthy black families will be taxed to possibly pay themselves. That's okay. Wealthy black families, and really, everyone in the country, have benefitted from slavery, too.
ape2man
Member
So anybody who's bloodline is effected by the atrocities of a certain group and is on average worse off than the group that commited the act involving racism he/she can throw a 'youOweMe' card to anybody that is that certain group.
then almost every one is walking around with 'youOweMe' cards.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Usually when you do something that is seen as a sign of asking for forgiveness.
I mean really from slavery to current day, at no point was there truly ever any attempts at asking for forgiveness or making amends. I don't consider freeing slaves and removing Jim Crow laws and practices to be amends of any kind.
Slavery Ends:
No reparations, no helping blacks build a community. Slaves weren't paid so when they were freed they entered the world with nothing; they couldn't even buy land legally. Slave owners basically said "Hey you guys literally have no life skills or any real way to make a living...but you're free now and that's good enough, just forget all the atrocities we committed against you; no use hating us for our past actions that's totally not Christian like so u go forth and be merry!"
Jim Crow/Civil Rights movement?
"Hey, we've totally been discriminating the absolute FUCK outta you people to include lynching, rape and murder oh and some eugenics down in NC (the lawsuit on that is STILL going on ffs) among a shitload of other really really fucked up things and have held you back so bad but uh...we promise to not do that (openly) anymore, so everything is even; clean slate starting now...go forth and be merry!"
Current
Empathetic people: "So about some sort of apologize and amends for blacks..."
Unnecessarily angry person counter: "Oh come on! Why should we have to apologize for something that happened 2000 years ago!? Fuck you people just want and want stuff! You're equal now ffs! You have Affirmative Action and like public assistance! Stop blaming others for your problems! My parents overcame their issues; so can anyone else! Racism is over. You people keep bringing it up is the reason why it won't go away. As long as we keep harping on the past we'll never move forward. Just let bygones be bygones!"
Empathetic people: "But statistics show that racism is very much alive and well; it's well documented and permeates many facets of American life/culture"
Unnecessarily angry person: "Thats because people keep talking about it!! Really you guys are the racists! People act like whites are so advantaged, we're totes not! <insert anecdotal evidence here> we have issues too!"
IrishNinja
Member
man, ending the drug war - and either completely overhauling other things disproportionately applied to blacks such as the 3 strike law, capital punishment, higher sentencing etc - would have huge effects for everyone, but especially those in need of it
No, the wealthy ones, which funny enough is in large part White. And this will happen through the government, hence the word 'taxation' as used in the OP.
You're from a similar country like me, you know taxation of rich people works, how poor people and society are much better off thanks to egalitarian principles with people taking care of one another through government services through free education, getting paid for studying, free healthcare, low crime rates, unemployment wages, extra funds diverted to poor neighbourhoods, etc.
Angelus Errare
Banned
One of my issues with Obama is he never once spoke on this. I don't mean do something about it; because that's hilariously unrealistic given the Republican Tea Party and how much the detest anyone who isn't white, male and Christian. I mean simply speaking on it in depth to raise general public awareness. Then again I guess he couldn't because you know people would be like "Aha! The other shoe has dropped! He's trying to rally up black people to kill us!"
Can't have the general populous feeling attacked.
He addressed it by further doubling down on the drug war unfortunately.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
People today can choose to live in a diverse or homogenous place, and plenty are choosing diverse. You try and force that kind of thing and you're gonna get significant blowback alright...
timetokill
Banned
yup.
Angelus Errare
Banned
True...;_;
ape2man
Member
And that didn't happen and it should have happend. but thats too late now. nobody is alive who experienced it.
So because of there skin color people are moraly/financially obligated because of someone else his skin color. (i'm talking about black and white skin) (i'm going to bed sorry)
TheXfactor
Member
they can complain about racism that happens today, thats an obvious given, but to me it seems like you are letting people complain about others that had nothing to do with a lot of the racism in the past. that just sounds highly unreasonable(sorry if thats not what you meant)
Oldschoolgamer
The physical form of blasphemy
Gaining a since of empathy and acknowledgment are the first step.
While it's a large problem with politics as a whole, gerrymandering needs to go...yesterday.
While it's a large problem with politics as a whole, gerrymandering needs to go...yesterday.
Not to sound condescending but you should actually try reading the OP. It gave a pretty solid breakdown on how the effects of slavery and jim crow effects us even today as well as new forms of discrimination that stem from it.
This would help along with the end of for profit prisons.
This is all going to take time. In the grand scheme of things, the situations you are speaking to didn't happen that long ago. Many of the people that experienced that time period are still alive today. Some are passing down those feelings to their children which will make it even harder.
But there is plenty of empathy out there. You see it here on gaf when one of those videos pop up. You see it on Facebook. There are a lot of good people out there. Again, it's going to take time.
I don't think many of your suggestions will help the situation because it will create an even bigger us vs. them mentality which is good for no one.
I also think that my people can look for ways to do for themselves instead of waiting for these solutions. Coming together as a community. A lot are. But many aren't.
But there is plenty of empathy out there. You see it here on gaf when one of those videos pop up. You see it on Facebook. There are a lot of good people out there. Again, it's going to take time.
I don't think many of your suggestions will help the situation because it will create an even bigger us vs. them mentality which is good for no one.
I also think that my people can look for ways to do for themselves instead of waiting for these solutions. Coming together as a community. A lot are. But many aren't.
Angelus Errare
Banned
It's not too late because people are still feeling the ramifications of that time past. It's like saying we shouldn't try to fix the problems of the US economy today due to Reagan/Reganomics era because the younger generations of the US didn't experience the Reagan era. When you break it down it really is a dumb comment in all aspects.
Time and history don't work in a bubble actions of the past have lasting effects that persist through to the present day. And it's not too late now, we STILL have institutional racism and discrimination in this country that unarguably not only disproportionally effects blacks and but holds them back and keeps them disadvantaged. That institutional racism is a direct result of slavery and Jim Crow era. So the argument that nobody is alive who experienced therefore they deserve nothing is ridiculous. The current disenfranchisement and treatment of Black Americans didn't happen overnight.
You're morally obligated to realise that black Americans are at a huge disadvantage compared to you because of what happened to them generations ago. Much like your current advantage whether you asked for it or not; is due directly to the treatment of Black Americans when this country was formed.
If the situation was reversed (as in whites were systemically marginalized) I doubt you'd be singing this same tune.
Which ones are you talking about here?
IrishNinja
Member
you're right about the drug war (i dont recall him saying much, but his administration cracked down on it sadly), and i wanna say he was likewise quiet on capital punishment too - but at a rally i went to out here in miami in like '08 he specifically highlighted both gov't transparency (some kinda google like website he'd employed in his hometown to follow tax $/etc) as well as the unfair nature of the three-strike law, the latter of which was like a dog whistle for me because fucking nobody ever talks about that one.
one of my bigger disappointments has been the lack of follow through with that, but as you said, i imagine crushing political realities painted a picture where getting his healthcare plane through meant dropping most of these other ideas.
harriet the spy
Member
While I have nothing against the general topic at hand and find the discussion interesting, this is most definitely bullshit and rewriting of history. Arab enslavement of Africa is well documented and was anything but kind. I am not shifting blame either because as usual the consumer is more at fault than the producer imo.
edit: though some of it was not from Africa (but that wasn't really my point).
That's basically how I feel. I have absolutely *nothing* to do with any past(or current) bigotry from other white people. I don't like being lumped in with them just because of the color of my skin. It seems to me it perpetuates this 'skin color defines you' mentality that is at the heart of racism and prejudice of all kinds(in terms of people pre-judging somebody based on some singular attribute of theirs, be it sex, race, nationality, whatever).
I don't feel that 'white people' should be held responsible for healing racism against blacks. Racism is not exclusive to white people and blacks are not the only people ever victimized by prejudice. This is a society problem. We ALL need to learn to be tolerant and we need to learn about prejudice and how to stamp it out. Nothing will be fixed overnight, but I do feel that as generations pass, things will improve. Dramatically. It sucks to say, but sometimes it takes a generation to die off so we can truly move on and eradicate 'localized' sources of prejudice.
……forgetit
Member
Whatever is done, it will definitely take time. The best solutions right now though would probably be better inner city education, end of the war on drugs, and getting rid of for profit prisons.
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