Support NeoGAF

[Guilty_AI]

she hulk is ok but its aimed at women mostly. its ok to aim things at women to

Its not aimed at 'women'. Its aimed at middle-upper class women living in big american cities who never read a comic book in their lives.

 

[LazyParrot]

These types of threads are increasing but yet nobody wants to have a serious conversation about why this is happening.

Everyone knows why it's happening. It's not some fucking mystery nobody can wrap their heads around. Gaming has gone mainstream, it's a big business, and studios and publishers are being run accordingly.

If you want games by nerds for nerds, go indie, retro, or AA. There's more of them around than ever.

 

[Wildebeest]

Games went from technological innovation by nerds to story innovation, "art pipeline" innovation, and monetization innovation. It is not that all the talent left, but the sort of talent that made it worth anything in the first place is being pushed out or to the margins.

 

[tvdaXD]

They're probably not as good as they used to be, but I think it's mostly a time issue. They try to be ambitious, but they have to release it at some point. If there's anyone to blame on the current fucked up state of gaming it's the investors with their unrealistic expectations.

 

[64gigabyteram]

EDMIX look I know it's easy to dismiss this thread as sexist (and i certainly disagree that women are ruining the game industry as a fan of female protagonists myself) but genuinely there is a shift. It's not the casuals making the games. It's the ceos, the investors, the shareholders. There's a reason Halo Infinite exists. There's a reason BF2042 exists.
There's a reason COD seems to keep regressing every year unless they look to remake a past game.
I don't see how you can pretend these games don't exist when since 2017 they've been flooding the AAA industry.

Sony isn't the only publisher out there, and they don't represent the entire AAA industry.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

EDMIX look I know it's easy to dismiss this thread as sexist (and i certainly disagree that women are ruining the game industry as a fan of female protagonists myself) but genuinely there is a shift. It's not the casuals making the games. It's the ceos, the investors, the shareholders. There's a reason Halo Infinite exists. There's a reason BF2042 exists.
There's a reason COD seems to keep regressing every year unless they look to remake a past game.
I don't see how you can pretend these games don't exist when since 2017 they've been flooding the AAA industry.

Sony isn't the only publisher out there, and they don't represent the entire AAA industry.

When CDPR did their own post-mortem of why Cyberpunk released in the state it did, they laid most of the blame on the shoulders of CEO's to push it out before christmas, even though the developers and people on the ground said it needed more time.

Like you say, the CEO's and investors call the shots nowadays. Games are not made for gamers.

 

[phil_t98]

Its not aimed at 'women'. Its aimed at middle-upper class women living in big american cities who never read a comic book in their lives.

well I must not realise that my 2 daughters are middle-upper class women then

 

[Hydroxy]

Fear mongering by Giga bowser. The real reason is the publishers. Since games take more time these days to make, but publishers still enforce strict deadlines hence developers have to ship out unfinished games and hope to patch it later. Also developers are forced to make changes to the gameplay in order to accommodate publisher demands like microtransactions, streamlined and dumbed down gameplay so as to have mass appeal etc. So the problem is the publishers.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Oh please, its clear as night and day what the OP is insinuating. Maybe the intention isnt there, but how would anyone come to any other conclusion based on those pics?

Why would anyone come to that conclusion without taking other factors into consideration? Yes, hiring based on check boxes and not on merit is going to have a detrimental effect on any product or service, that goes without saying.

But the people pictured in the latest of OPs pics are not the same type of person I see as socially outcast or reminiscent of nerds of old. Not only that, but data and studies carried out by the industry show that females prefer different genres of games to males, which goes without saying. So any shift in ratio of male:female in the industry will result in a similar correlation to a shift in games. Whether that shift is good or not is up to the individual to decide, but there is a shift.

I know in todays age almost every topic must have some political slant, but discussion of topics before the internet went politically insane means that those political slants don't exist.

 

[ACESHIGH]

Some folks here are blind. You can't deny there's a problem when a BATMAN game has Livin la vida loca on a playable sequence.

Who called the shots there? Hardcore comic book nerds? Batman Arkham fans? I don't think so. And this happens a lot in AAA games.

Gaming is still great but thanks to TECH. Tech that enables me to have basically the playable history of the media via emulation on a cheap cellphone. Tech that makes everyone with a controller being able to play high end games on the cloud and stuff like that. Gaming is more accesible than ever these days.


OP if you want to see real passion projets just rely on modding and emulation and maybe some indie games.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Why would anyone come to that conclusion without taking other factors into consideration? Yes, hiring based on check boxes and not on merit is going to have a detrimental effect on any product or service, that goes without saying.

How do you or the OP know that the women in the second pic he is making fun of, have no talent? Hiring for diversity as long as the talent is there is fine. Hiring just FOR diversity, is not ofc but how the fuck do you or anyone know that they are not talented? Its just a shitty assumption and this topic is shit.

 

[SmokedMeat]

This thread reminds me of one of those stupid YouTube reaction videos where the person’s making a shocked face.

Bottom of the barrel. Sorry OP, but we go from two guys who helped launched the FPS genre, to photos of Ubi Soft - which we know nothing about.

UbiSoft is a huge multinational company spread around the globe. If that 2014 photo is supposed to trick me into thinking these are the people making their shooter games - then it failed.

I’d also say shooter fans are still making shooters via the indie circuit, which I see supposed hardcore gamers shun all the time because they care more about AAA budgets.

Edit: I also don’t get the boys club mentality from beta males. There’s a real sense of fear, that you can’t help but notice. When I was a kid Activision would credit the developer with their game creations in a promo book included with their games. Carol White - a woman - made River Raid, which was the best fucking game on the entire system. Stop being such snowflakes.
If there’s one thing I learned from back when PS4 launched with their broadcast/share button, it’s that loads of girls play shooters. They love them. I have no problem with anyone working on a genre they love. My masculinity isn’t threatened because of it.

 

[greenpower22]

Games have become more expensive to develop while still selling at $60, along with more competition at lower price points such as $20 and under indie games.

That is not quite true. Last gen they removed booklets (along with other goodies) from inside games and they kelpt the price at 60 while the cut costs. So indireclty that is a price increase or more accuratly a profit increase for them. And the current gen more and more companies have increased the price at 70 or more, and the collector/special/limited editions are becoming more and more expensive than the past while packing the same extras.

 

[Edgelord79]

Nice cherry picked photos. Lots of assumptions going on.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Sooo basically "women don't make great games" and also "keep women out of gaming so they don't the experience they need to make a great game".

 

[EDMIX]

There’s been like 30 “old man yells at clouds” thread this weekend. No games developers aren’t worse. People just prefer things that came about in their formative years. We literally got Elden ring a game that had as good of a case as any for GOAT. Ragnarok is also this year which at least will be one of the highest quality games we’ve seen. Enjoy that we have a great hobby with superb out put. Or play the old games you love so much.

Basically Boomer threads lol

I don't even see much evidence of this "aren't as good" as the record sales clearly show someone is buying those games and if they were bad, the public would just avoid those games in general as its not like we have zero flops or something.

Many need to consider, we are at a stage now in gaming where A to AA titles can like this can exist

and AAA titles can exist like this

We had babies out here PEEING ON FOLKS IN AAA 4K Pee textures lol

So I don't see much to argue anything is declining. Some thing exist for everyone in the AAA space no different then the A or AA space.

I'd argue a better topic might be sustainability as the cost of gaming development grows, the harder it is for studios to put out titles that might take risk. Its why I support the $70 price tag and would argue it should likely even be higher based on inflation. So an idea of something declining is hard to prove as game sales directly contradict this, quality is even harder to prove as its a deeply subjective and with games being more and more complex as generations go, its hard to gauge how a game really should be day 1 based on someone's view from 30 years ago or something, they weren't worried about no Ray Tracing 30 years ago lol

So for the most part , I see this as some boomer, jaded gamer idea. A lot of IP i liked back then, I still like how and got many sequels to games I loved during the PS1, PS2 generation etc on top of new AAA titles with new ideas.

So gamers ask for creatively and something different and then bash this.

So I find many cry about wanting something different, but might literally bash that different game and then get shocked when something like this moves 30 million lol

 

[64gigabyteram]

Mod of War isn't there like a rule in the TOS that states you can't discriminate based on gender? where's the ban?

 

[Edgelord79]

I don’t buy this. Talent is there. Games are way more complex, the challenges go up with complexity, and the process flow to make them is probably completely different too.

 

[IlGialloMondadori]

Its not aimed at 'women'. Its aimed at middle-upper class women living in big american cities who never read a comic book in their lives.

The horror of making a show for women who have never read a comic book. My god, how can Marvel and Disney do this to us?! Criminals. Lock them up. All of them.

 

[Scotty W]

You are correct in many ways OP. But I think there is a lot you are leaving out, mostly because the actual story is much too complex to put a simple narrative on.

For example, those old Japanese game company bosses were bloodthirsty businessmen who only cared about making money. Think Namco, Capcom, Konami, Sega and Nintendo. Hiroshi Yamauchi never played a game in his life, and yet he somehow managed to make Nintendo prolific, profitable, and top quality.

I recall reading about the making of Kid Icarus. It was mostly done by one guy who had never made a game before. But by all appearances, it seems just like any other game at the time. Shigeru Miyamoto was hired as a toy designer, who had little to no interest in video games.

Keep in mind that this was for a relatively small market. By contrast games are big business today, and very expensive and time consuming to produce AND they have keep one upping previous generations on everything. With this much money involved, it is natural that the businesses involved will become more conservative, which of course means focus grouping it to death. This has always been human nature.

“All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.
….
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part.”

Just think of companies that didn’t become conservative. Ion Storm was completely reckless, and Romero has still mot recovered 25 years later. Sega was pumping games out in the mid 90’s. Have you ever heard of the game “Cool Riders”?



This game came out the year AFTER Daytona. It was never ported. Sega has many such games. Such behavior is simple unsustainable.

Gaming got too big for its breeches.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

How do you or the OP know that the women in the second pic he is making fun of, have no talent? Hiring for diversity as long as the talent is there is fine. Hiring just FOR diversity, is not ofc but how the fuck do you or anyone know that they are not talented? Its just a shitty assumption and this topic is shit.

Calm your emotions.

I have not called into question their talent. That isn't the point I'm making. I could just as easily ask how do you know that they are on the same level or more talented than their predecessors?

The point is that the people making the games are no longer the ones making the games, talented or not. And the games they are making are no longer aimed at the audiences that they used to be made for.

We've had this discussion on gaming forums for a decade and more. I remember discussing this very topic back when COD first got popular, and how the casual market would change the industry and push the hardcore market to one side. The hardcore, old school gamers were told "it's jsut more people playing, it won't change the industry, you will still have the games made for you!" Now look where we are. From Mw2, which was considered a downgrade in the world of online competitive shooting, to the absolute state of the genre today. Pay to win, loot boxes, mtx, £20 skins?

The only reason this topic is resurfacing again is because the market is shifting again. Microsoft have even said they want people playing on more devices than ever. There are 4 billion phones out there and, at best, 150 million console players and 150 million PC players. Just like the smaller hardcore audience was ignored for the larger, more lucrative casual audience, so too will that casual audience be tossed aside for the smartphone audience.

That's the whole point. There is a shift in the industry, reminiscent of the one that happened around 2008, one that older gamers have seen before and are going through again.

 

[EverydayBeast]

You can make a point that the end game is AAA, hating on teams is the worst when they bust ass all day.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Gaming has been great for years hating on the hobby gets old.

 

[64gigabyteram]

Basically Boomer threads lol

I don't even see much evidence of this "aren't as good" as the record sales clearly show someone is buying those games and if they were bad, the public would just avoid those games in general as its not like we have zero flops or something.

Many need to consider, we are at a stage now in gaming where A to AA titles can like this can exist

and AAA titles can exist like this

We had babies out here PEEING ON FOLKS IN AAA 4K Pee textures lol

So I don't see much to argue anything is declining. Some thing exist for everyone in the AAA space no different then the A or AA space.

I'd argue a better topic might be sustainability as the cost of gaming development grows, the harder it is for studios to put out titles that might take risk. Its why I support the $70 price tag and would argue it should likely even be higher based on inflation. So an idea of something declining is hard to prove as game sales directly contradict this, quality is even harder to prove as its a deeply subjective and with games being more and more complex as generations go, its hard to gauge how a game really should be day 1 based on someone's view from 30 years ago or something, they weren't worried about no Ray Tracing 30 years ago lol

So for the most part , I see this as some boomer, jaded gamer idea. A lot of IP i liked back then, I still like how and got many sequels to games I loved during the PS1, PS2 generation etc on top of new AAA titles with new ideas.

So gamers ask for creatively and something different and then bash this.

So I find many cry about wanting something different, but might literally bash that different game and then get shocked when something like this moves 30 million lol

I mean... all the games you listed would be a dime a dozen masterpiece in the 2000s. in 2001 alone we got games that were most definitely more influential than the stuff you posted
your post isnt a bad example but there is a clear shift, unlike what GigaMoron is saying though it isn't because of women, CEOs and shareholders simply just want more money

If they had less influence these days, we'd be getting a games like RDR2 and Returnal every 2 years instead of 4 (or in the case of GTA, every 4 years instead of every god damn decade)

 

[Flutta]

she hulk is ok but its aimed at women mostly. its ok to aim things at women to

Hmm don’t think thats entirely true. I dont even think women in general are interested in watching superhero stuff.

A small minority sure but in general nahh. The difference is that this show and many other like it have some type of a message aimed at both young men and women. ”Women are strong as men” & ”women need no man” .

So the message gets to be more important than the quality of said product. Same thing is happening with games. For example, Horizon Forbidden west one of the latest games with a female protag has this exact message i was talking about.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Calm your emotions.

I have not called into question their talent. That isn't the point I'm making. I could just as easily ask how do you know that they are on the same level or more talented than their predecessors?

The point is that the people making the games are no longer the ones making the games, talented or not. And the games they are making are no longer aimed at the audiences that they used to be made for.

We've had this discussion on gaming forums for a decade and more. I remember discussing this very topic back when COD first got popular, and how the casual market would change the industry and push the hardcore market to one side. The hardcore, old school gamers were told "it's jsut more people playing, it won't change the industry, you will still have the games made for you!" Now look where we are. From Mw2, which was considered a downgrade in the world of online competitive shooting, to the absolute state of the genre today. Pay to win, loot boxes, mtx, £20 skins?

The only reason this topic is resurfacing again is because the market is shifting again. Microsoft have even said they want people playing on more devices than ever. There are 4 billion phones out there and, at best, 150 million console players and 150 million PC players. Just like the smaller hardcore audience was ignored for the larger, more lucrative casual audience, so too will that casual audience be tossed aside for the smartphone audience.

That's the whole point. There is a shift in the industry, reminiscent of the one that happened around 2008, one that older gamers have seen before and are going through again.

No, the topic is pretty clear. You;'re just putting words into OP that are just not there. It's clear what he wanted to do with this topic. Its just a pointless thread that assumes diverse women are not actual gamers and they are the ones making the games these days. He also assumes games are just corporate products instead of games which is partially true but not entirely. That is it.

 

[phil_t98]

Hmm don’t think thats entirely true. I dont even think women in general are interested in watching superhero stuff.

A small minority sure but in general nahh. The difference is that this show and many other like it have some type of a message aimed at both young men and women. ”Women are strong as men” & ”women need no man” .

So the message gets to be more important than the quality of said product. Same thing is happening with games. For example, Horizon Forbidden west one of the latest games with a female protag has this exact message i was talking about.

wow how out of touch are you? loads of women I know love the superhero stuff. look at the audience next time you go the cinema, black panther is out next month and look at the audience

 

[ResilientBanana]

Games have become more expensive to develop while still selling at $60, along with more competition at lower price points such as $20 and under indie games. It's just not worth taking risks on a high budget game

Yet, they rake in billions. Don't give me the "they're expensive bit" when they figured out ways to make you pay for shit you don't need on a constant basis.

 

[intbal]

While I generally agree with OP's assessment of the problem (game development personnel changing), I disagree completely with the timeline.
I'd say that this shift from gamer-driven development to corporate-driven development has been going on ever since the first major media corporation noticed that games can make money and decided to buy up a gaming company.

Example:
WARNER SIGNS PACT TO PURCHASE ATARI (Sept. 8, 1976)

And it's been progressing in slow motion for more than four decades, occasionally increasing in pace when a new round of acquisitions begins (like the purchase of Sierra for over $1 billion in 1996 by a non-gaming company).

 

[Frank Horrigan]

No, the topic is pretty clear. You;'re just putting words into OP that are just not there. It's clear what he wanted to do with this topic. Its just a pointless thread that assumes diverse women are not actual gamers and they are the ones making the games these days. He also assumes games are just corporate products instead of games which is partially true but not entirely. That is it.

I'm discussing my points on the OP's thread. He can argue his own points, i only speak from what I see and perceive. You say the OP and this thread assumes things, while assuming yourself without data to back you up. Even when I tell you in my own words the point I am making, you dismiss it in favour of an assumption.

Games are 100% corporate products. One could argue they always were, though in the past it would be easier to argue that artists (devs) loaned money from pubs on the promise that they will return their investment 10 fold. Nowadays, it would be almost impossible to argue that games, especially the popular ones, are not a product of corporate greed. The only example to the contrary is No Man's Sky, where that team are still releasing content for free, years down the line. They are an old-school studio who do what they do out of passion.

can the same be said for Cyberpunk, Battlefield 2024, Fifa, Fortnite (with it's corporate skins and advertisements) CoD, Overwatch 2? I've no doubt that those games were worked on by people from myriad backgrounds, with talent running the gamut of competent to savant, yet they are all products of corporate design.

 

[Flutta]

wow how out of touch are you? loads of women I know love the superhero stuff. look at the audience next time you go the cinema, black panther is out next month and look at the audience

Do you even know what minority and majority even means?

Your ”loads of women” dont mean shit. They’re still a minority consumer wise.

Yes i’ve been in the cinema for a bunch of superhero movies and THE MAJORTY of attendance are males. By a large margin even.

 

[Puscifer]

You are not a gamer? Get off your ass and start making video games.

My favorite game this year is Neon White, played it more than Horizon Forbidden West. People will immediately dismiss it because it's not some 100 million dollar 30 fps movie simulator.

 

[STARSBarry]

How about people stop buying shit games?

Like this problem is solved super easily by simply not buying shit games made by Ubisoft, EA and Activision. It's surprisingly easy, just stop doing it.

I have series I uttely beloved back in the day that where killed by companies, I didn't just go "oh they might have changed this year" and buy the next entry anyway I fucking stopped buying them.

When people start doing that, only then will you find games pick up again... hell this goes for F2P games too, I was hyped for Gundam Evolution but as soon as I saw its monetisation I dropped and uninstalled it immediately. Free games can be shit, its no use saying "Oh the Overwatch meta sucks now" and then continue to play overwatch, you stop spending fucking money on it, and stop playing.

Only when enough people to hit a critical mass will the big names even think of rolling back on designing games around how much you pay, and back to rewarding you for just playing.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

OP right now

Massive OT (forgive me Evilore), but sometimes I am proud of my country of obligatory philosophy at school:



Put auto translation to English and enjoy le niveau du discours.

 

[EDMIX]

in 2001 alone we got games that were most definitely more influential than the stuff you posted

My goal isn't to post all games made in the modern era, during that 2001 time frame many genres were made that became staples of gaming, Gran Turismo 3, GTA 3 etc


Trust me, I love that time frame ,I still play old PS2 games, but stop with this weird war of this gen or that gen, that time frame literally lacked many, many genre that exist here today.

So someone 40 or 50 years from now will be bitching about how games are currently and then say some shit like

"In 2017 ALONE we got games that were most definitely more influential than the stuff you posted, proof? BoTW released, Pub G exploded the BR concept and defined the multiplayer landscape, REVII VR was a staple title for VR before brain implants that proved it can work prior to PSVR2, VR3, VR4 VitaX and VRRebootRemix" lol

I love that time too, but I try not to allow myself to have blinders on how the industry is today based on what I loved back then, it is changing yes, but clearly a influence exist and I think some of you can't see that cause you might be focused on what you like vs reality.

Someone in another thread questioned if COD mattered on mobile, they didn't know it had 600 million users.... Nothing we know of in 2001 was doing some crazy shit like that, so gaming is more then PS2,GC and XB now, thus that influence exist all over the industry and maybe not just focused on GTA or GT.

In regards to how long games take to make, we can't do much about that, but I feel even more so...that deep development means you can't live off of just copying the next guy, by the time your game comes out, that fad, trend etc might already be gone, you must be the first to innovate to really take that crown.

It can't be helped in that respect and maybe its for the better so developers know they can't make their games based on what was "hip" when development started, but must really try to set a the trend.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

snip

 

[Rykan]

Using Ubisoft as an example is cheating. Ubisoft games are not made by humans at game development studios. They are manufactured in factories by robots.

 

[TheBROgamer]

You are correct in many ways OP. But I think there is a lot you are leaving out, mostly because the actual story is much too complex to put a simple narrative on.

For example, those old Japanese game company bosses were bloodthirsty businessmen who only cared about making money. Think Namco, Capcom, Konami, Sega and Nintendo. Hiroshi Yamauchi never played a game in his life, and yet he somehow managed to make Nintendo prolific, profitable, and top quality.

I recall reading about the making of Kid Icarus. It was mostly done by one guy who had never made a game before. But by all appearances, it seems just like any other game at the time. Shigeru Miyamoto was hired as a toy designer, who had little to no interest in video games.

Keep in mind that this was for a relatively small market. By contrast games are big business today, and very expensive and time consuming to produce AND they have keep one upping previous generations on everything. With this much money involved, it is natural that the businesses involved will become more conservative, which of course means focus grouping it to death. This has always been human nature.

“All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.
….
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part.”

Just think of companies that didn’t become conservative. Ion Storm was completely reckless, and Romero has still mot recovered 25 years later. Sega was pumping games out in the mid 90’s. Have you ever heard of the game “Cool Riders”?



This game came out the year AFTER Daytona. It was never ported. Sega has many such games. Such behavior is simple unsustainable.

Gaming got too big for its breeches.

Thumbs up.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Games are 100% corporate products

Maybe the ones youre playing. Heres at least one example of your statement being factually untrue. I can give you a million more prolly.

I'm discussing my points on the OP's thread. He can argue his own points, i only speak from what I see and perceive. You say the OP and this thread assumes things, while assuming yourself without data to back you up. Even when I tell you in my own words the point I am making, you dismiss it in favour of an assumption.

I attacked OP's topic, not your points so why are you quoting me asking for clarification on OP"s statement unless you;'re defending his shitty topic? Yes both me and OP assume things thats why this topic should not exist without evidence, which is why I even started this debate in the first place.

 

[engstra]

Sure OP, your taste in games doesn't line up with what's being put out so that means it's the fault of women and "wokeness". It has nothing to do with the bloating of budgets of AAA games meaning it pays to be risk averse, or simply the fact that the videogame market has grown substantially to become a more mainstream hobby meaning games are made for a wider audience.

If you don't think there's any innovation I don't know what to tell you, that's your own problem. I personally think the AAA space has grown stale but there are still tons of creatives making incredible games at smaller scale. Exactly like the music or film industry.

Also sounds like you're just choosing to remember some of the good games from previous generations, there was still countless braindead movie tie-in games or other complete garbage.

 

[BabyfaceRe]

Games have become more expensive to develop while still selling at $60, along with more competition at lower price points such as $20 and under indie games. It's just not worth taking risks on a high budget game

Another way to phrase this is: "Games have become formulaic products that are no longer considered art and therefore no longer require artistry. Profit margin is the ONLY thing that matters and games are designed to capitalize on this above all else." The same thing can be said for hollywood movies. Remarkably GotY awards and oscars still tend to go to games/movies that respect the art form and try something creative.

As much as your statement is 100% true, it's also only half the story. Gaming companies are making more profit than ever before and so this argument about large budgets is only redundant. Returns have NEVER been this big and these companies have never had such a huge pile of cash to fall back on, that it should actually be easier now than ever to take risks on games.

It's really easy to compare games from PS2 era to now and see (indisputably) that game design has barely changed or evolved. Graphics and animation are better (that's where your big budgets are going btw, along with obscene marketing) but design is almost completely un-touched.

Most people tend to think better graphics means better game, that is the popular consensus, something that clearly plays out when you see the thirst for remakes of 1 gen old games. Anyone with a surface level understanding of game design can see the industry has been stagnant for years. Larger companies are leaving all the risk and innovation to indies and if a title does well they will just copy paste, put a nice coat of paint on it and market it to fuck, profiting off the creativity of the indie devs.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Maybe the ones youre playing. Heres at least one example of your statement being factually untrue. I can give you a million more prolly.

I don't doubt there are examples of passion projects. But they aren't the mainstay or majority of the industry like they used to be. The money in the industry isn't generated by Tunic, NMS or any of the others. It's generated by committee designed corporations aiming at the lowest common denominator because that's where the money is.

I attacked OP's topic, not your points so why are you quoting me asking for clarification on OP"s statement unless you;'re defending his shitty topic? Yes both me and OP assume things thats why this topic should not exist without evidence, which is why I even started this debate in the first place.

I am defending this topic because he raises a point I agree with; that games are no longer made for gamers.

 

[64gigabyteram]

In regards to how long games take to make, we can't do much about that, but I feel even more so...that deep development means you can't live off of just copying the next guy, by the time your game comes out, that fad, trend etc might already be gone, you must be the first to innovate to really take that crown.

i sincerely disagree with this one

a lot of the games with the gigantic dev cycles we have now don't seem to be innovating that much over past titles. TOTK is my go to example (as stupid as that sounds seeing how it's not out yet, this example could age horribly) that game has been in the works for 6 years and it doesnt look to be much of a jump from the original BOTW (which took 5 years, but they were coming up with a new formula for the series) and they've been leaving fans starving since

Deep development is also because of too much of a focus on graphics, cinematics, writers, etc. There's too much focus on making the game look as good as possible and the result is gameplay that's rooted in the late 2000s/early 2010s.

It's actually the games with shorter development cycles that end up being creative and innovative

Returnal was made in 4 years and it's one of the most arcadey shooters the AAA industry has seen while still having plenty of worldbuilding

Control was made in 3 years and it's also another very unique game, being one of the few only AAA metroidvanias that also has a unique power and shooting system

Death Stranding was made in 3 years and as polarizing as it is it managed to be very unique and is possibly the most indepth walking simulator of all time (as dumb of a thing to say that is)

Minecraft is one of the greatest indies of all time and is also the best selling game ever made and it was developed from the 2009 beta to 2011 final in like 2 years, and apparently the first ever version of the game was made in 6 days. Technically those early 2010s versions are unrecognizable compared to what Minecraft is now, but the fact they managed to get the game to the state where it's playable and beatable is a feat

All of these games show creative and unique concepts and none of them took half a decade or more to create. maybe im stretching it with Returnal but i honestly think long dev cycles really don't mean shit as to the quality of a game.

 

[phil_t98]

Hmm don’t think thats entirely true. I dont even think women in general are interested in watching superhero stuff.

A small minority sure but in general nahh. The difference is that this show and many other like it have some type of a message aimed at both young men and women. ”Women are strong as men” & ”women need no man” .

So the message gets to be more important than the quality of said product. Same thing is happening with games. For example, Horizon Forbidden west one of the latest games with a female protag has this exact message i was talking about.

MARVEL AUDIENCE FIGURES AR 53% MEN VS 47% WOMEN so minority not by much

Is Gen Z Too Cool for Marvel?

Data indicates millennials are a driving force of interest in Marvel and superheroes.

morningconsult.com

 

[Nvzman]

The OP had a legitimately valid point and then decided to completely shit it up and allow the thread to derail by making it about "wokeness".

Look, gaming has become significantly blander and safer, people posting God of War as an example of AAA gaming being fresh and amazing is hilarious. Its a good game but to me its absolutely boring as sin. The original God of War games weren't incredible either but at least they stood out amongst their peers, meanwhile GoW4 is very, VERY clearly inspired by The Last of Us and continues the absolutely tiring trend of being a movie game. No offense, I didn't want to play a movie, I want to play a fucking game. And the gameplay isn't even anything to write home about, if its trying to be a hack and slash its boring as shit, if its trying to be a heavy, weighty melee game, its still bland.

Despite hating movie/walking simulators at this point, I somehow found Death Stranding to be, ironically, one of the few legitimately engaging games I've played in the last few years. I think if anything that game is exactly how these slower paced games should play out, in that Death Stranding always tries to keep you engaged and have actual depth to the movement and mechanics. It was something genuinely different and interesting, and yet people shat on it because the gameplay wasn't good for the ADHD crowd.

I honestly wish gaming just went back to the old SEGA/PlayStation/Nintendo days, where gameplay was always king, and everything else was secondary. Nowadays it really feels like everything blends together.

 

[The Cockatrice]

But they aren't the mainstay or majority of the industry like they used to be

Also untrue. The ratio of indie games vs big corporate games releasing per year is probably staggering to even mention. Theres at least 20 made with passion indies made by diverse people who love games or classic games being rsled per month. Also whose fault is it that those big chunks of money go to the corporations that make products not games? Are you saying its the devs fault? The diversity cast? No, it's the dumb gamers buying mtx and cashgrab products that is to blame. There is nothing to discuss in this topic. It's a stupid attack at some talented people.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Also untrue. The ratio of indie games vs big corporate games releasing per year is probably staggering to even mention. Theres at least 20 made with passion indies made by diverse people who love games or classic games being rsled per month. Also whose fault is it that those big chunks of money go to the corporations that make products not games? Are you saying its the devs fault? The diversity cast? No, it's the dumb gamers buying mtx and cashgrab products that is to blame. There is nothing to discuss in this topic. It's a stupid attack at some talented people.

100% correct. Unfortunately, those gamers aren't gamers. Those buying MTX and cashgrab products don't care about the industry because they're products themselves. They are addicts who need another fix. I agree with you on that 100%

 

[T4keD0wN]

Yup youre right OP, its not because of capitalism and putting profit above everyhing else. Its because they treat people like humans and call out abusers. /s

On a totally unrelated note, are you enjoying working at blizzard/ubisoft?

 

[IFireflyl]

If a racist/sexist/whateverist says the sky is blue you can agree with them while not being racist/sexist/whateverist yourself. The answer to, "Are games and game development becoming watered down?" is yes. Having said that, I disagree with parts of GigaBowser 's post regarding WHY this is the case. The OP came across as too heavy-handed for me.

 

[The Cockatrice]

100% correct. Unfortunately, those gamers aren't gamers. Those buying MTX and cashgrab products don't care about the industry because they're products themselves. They are addicts who need another fix. I agree with you on that 100%

Let me go a little bit deeper on the thing OP mentioned. If the diversity/women devs are making products so addictive that "gamers" buy them or spend money on mtx, then they must be good at their job right? I agree that theres an increase in diversity more than talent these days but it's not something I'd worry, atm. They still need to make products and if they cant then ofc the boomers leading the corps will just get rid of them. No corporation will risk loosing money anyway.