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Kingdom Come Deliverance 2 | Final Previews are up

GymWolf

Member
Agreed. Animations are extremely important and not many studios do it right.

Let's see, I think that you are gonna end up buying the game in the end even if the combat doesn't convinced you 100%
I don't think so, i got the first one gifted from the epic store, i'm never gonna buy a game where i know that i'm gonna dread every combat encounter for possibly 40-50 hours or more, i jist can't express with words how much i hate everything about this combat system, and i don't wanna be a broken record and sour the people who are excited for the game.

I'm gonna be super curious to hear about the world simulation tho, i'm a sucker for that shit.
 
Curious to see if the npcs and world simulation is gonna be on the level of rdr2.

What sell the world of rdr2 are also the huge amount of unique animations, how different npcs walks etc, i didn't saw anything similar on the preview footage of kc2, they still look pretty janky.


Devs need to start investing on good animations other than just improving the graphic, animations is what sells this shit outside of still frame pics inside forums.
People have their own sleep and work schedules, like in KCD1, which really helps with immersion. And you can now antagonize people like in RDR2, but I am sure it is a simplified version in KCD2. RDR2 has a crazy amount of dialogue variety among their NPCs that is still industry leading. But even in KCD1, NPCs are pretty good at reacting to stuff. Much better than most AAA games like Cyberpunk

100% agree on animation. It is absurd to think that RDR2 and TLOU2 are still the gold standard when it comes to animation. Nobody comes close to those two games. Even MGSV blows the doors off pretty much every AAA game today and it's 10 years old. I would much prefer if games focused on world density and animations over graphic fidelity
 
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clarky

Gold Member
People have their own sleep and work schedules, like in KCD1, which really helps with immersion. And you can now antagonize people like in RDR2, but I am sure it is a simplified version in KCD2. RDR2 has a crazy amount of dialogue variety among their NPCs that is still industry leading. But even in KCD1, NPCs are pretty good at reacting to stuff. Much better than most AAA games like Cyberpunk

100% agree on animation. It is absurd to think that RDR2 and TLOU2 are still the gold standard when it comes to animation. Nobody comes close to those two games. Even a game like MGSV blows the doors off pretty much every AAA game today and it's 10 years old. I would much prefer if games focused on world density and animations over graphic fidelity
I have to disagree that RDR2's animation is gold standard, yes it looks impressive but controls horribly. Its like driving a tank at times.

Hopefully GTAVI isn't as bad.
 
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GymWolf

Member
I have to disagree that RDR2's animation is gold standard, yes it looks impressive but controls horribly. Its like driving a tank at times.

Hopefully GTAVI isn't as bad.
We were talking about npcs animations, the variety is astounding compared to other games, and gta6 looks 10x times better, that beach scene get me a semi every time i think about it.

And arthur animations are top class, being clunky to move doesn't make animations look worse.
 
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clarky

Gold Member
We were talking about nocs animations, the variety is astoumdimg compared to other games, and gta6 looks 10x times better, that beach scene get me a semi every time i think about it.

And arthur animations are top class, being clunky to move doesn't make animations look worse.
Sorry, multitasking. That will teach me to read only the last comment.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
Curious to see if the npcs and world simulation is gonna be on the level of rdr2.

What sell the world of rdr2 are also the huge amount of unique animations, how different npcs walks etc, i didn't saw anything similar on the preview footage of kc2, they still look pretty janky.


Devs need to start investing on good animations other than just improving the graphic, animations is what sells this shit outside of still frame pics inside forums.
RDR2 probably cost like 3x to make vs KCD2. They aren’t at that level, but I think all in all, considering much larger freedom vs RDR2 (missions there are very rigid for most part), it’s a good overall tradeoff.

Most developers/publishers can’t blow $300mil+ on a game.
 

GymWolf

Member
RDR2 probably cost like 3x to make vs KCD2. They aren’t at that level, but I think all in all, considering much larger freedom vs RDR2 (missions there are very rigid for most part), it’s a good overall tradeoff.

Most developers/publishers can’t blow $300mil+ on a game.
But it's also true that animations are super important to sell your liveable, breathable city.


Look at the city footage of crimson desert, that game has a lot of unique animations for npcs doing their things and it is both super huge in size and not close to rockstar budget, it probably has a similar budget to kc2.

I think animations should be a huge priority in any immersive, realistic game.
 

StereoVsn

Gold Member
But it's also true that animations are super important to sell your liveable, breathable city.


Look at the city footage of crimson desert, that game has a lot of unique animations for npcs doing their things and it is both super huge in size and not close to rockstar budget, it probably has a similar budget to kc2.

I think animations should be a huge priority in any immersive, realistic game.
I will agree to disagree I guess. You have to have trade offs somewhere. I would rather devs focused on writing, characterization, NPCs and NPC AI, freedom to approach missions in many different ways, interesting side quests, good approach to crafting and more vs blowing a lot of money on mocap.

I mean sure, if they can do it all, that’s great, but usually studios don’t have the budget (unless you are Rockstar).

I mean look at Spider-Man 2 and what we got for $300 mil reported cost. I would take crappier animations vs that game any day of the week. 😉

For Crimson Desert, it looks interesting but we don’t know jack about its storytelling, mission approach, NPC AI and more. Hard to judge at this juncture.
 

GymWolf

Member
I will agree to disagree I guess. You have to have trade offs somewhere. I would rather devs focused on writing, characterization, NPCs and NPC AI, freedom to approach missions in many different ways, interesting side quests, good approach to crafting and more vs blowing a lot of money on mocap.

I mean sure, if they can do it all, that’s great, but usually studios don’t have the budget (unless you are Rockstar).

I mean look at Spider-Man 2 and what we got for $300 mil reported cost. I would take crappier animations vs that game any day of the week. 😉

For Crimson Desert, it looks interesting but we don’t know jack about its storytelling, mission approach, NPC AI and more. Hard to judge at this juncture.
Different games have different priorities, i get that, it would be great to have both things.

At least We can agree that 300 mil were wasted on sp2 :lollipop_grinning_sweat:
 

Idleyes

Member
You're basically just supposed to distract them momentarily so she can get away then hoof it out of there.
It worked!! Ok so, now that I'm a bit more into the game, I'm really diggin this vulnerable shit. The swordplay (though I'm getting spanked more often than not) is rewarding when I finally manage to kill someone. Henry is a funny dude bruh, I like the character. The way he speaks so frankly. And that Ben Shapiro head ass cat robbing the butchers body! That guy was a fucking asshole for real. Felt really good selecting fuck you and then trying to beat his ass.
 

GymWolf

Member
It worked!! Ok so, now that I'm a bit more into the game, I'm really diggin this vulnerable shit. The swordplay (though I'm getting spanked more often than not) is rewarding when I finally manage to kill someone. Henry is a funny dude bruh, I like the character. The way he speaks so frankly. And that Ben Shapiro head ass cat robbing the butchers body! That guy was a fucking asshole for real. Felt really good selecting fuck you and then trying to beat his ass.
Ben shapiro is in the game? :lollipop_grinning_sweat:
 
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Idleyes

Member
Ok I admit this is racists on my part but these cats look alike to me.

spf6dfO.png
 
I will agree to disagree I guess. You have to have trade offs somewhere. I would rather devs focused on writing, characterization, NPCs and NPC AI, freedom to approach missions in many different ways, interesting side quests, good approach to crafting and more vs blowing a lot of money on mocap.

I mean sure, if they can do it all, that’s great, but usually studios don’t have the budget (unless you are Rockstar).

I mean look at Spider-Man 2 and what we got for $300 mil reported cost. I would take crappier animations vs that game any day of the week. 😉

For Crimson Desert, it looks interesting but we don’t know jack about its storytelling, mission approach, NPC AI and more. Hard to judge at this juncture.
the game director has a twitter post yesterday saying KCD2 has the most words of any RPG ever created. Even more than Baldurs Gate 3. I don't think people are grasping how big this game really is

https://fictionhorizon.com/kingdom-come-deliverance-2s-script-is-so-huge-it-puts-most-rpgs-to-shame/
 
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Denton

Member
RDR2 probably cost like 3x to make vs KCD2.
RDR2 is estimated to have cost 400+ million (1600 fulltime devs with avg salary 5K for 5 years is a bit under 500M)
KCD2 cost around 45 million.
Yes, it is amazing what an army of animators can do. RDR2 had more animators alone than KCD had developers.
As you say, expecting that kind of quality from anyone not named Rockstar is a bit naive.
 
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StereoVsn

Gold Member
RDR2 is estimated to have cost 400+ million (1600 fulltime devs with avg salary 5K for 5 years is a bit under 500M)
KCD2 cost around 45 million.
Yes, it is amazing what an army of animators can do. RDR2 had more animators alone than KCD had developers.
As you say, expecting that kind of quality from anyone not named Rockstar is a bit naive.
Yep, them and some of Sony’s studios are basically it for that sort of high end mocap. It’s not worth the money for smaller publishers and studios. It’s much better to concentrate on their own strengths and weaknesses should see that shortly with KCD2.

Personally, for all RDR2’s improvements and amazing graphics, I found mission structure restrictive and story wise RDR1 was a better game.
 
RDR2 is estimated to have cost 400+ million (1600 fulltime devs with avg salary 5K for 5 years is a bit under 500M)
KCD2 cost around 45 million.
Yes, it is amazing what an army of animators can do. RDR2 had more animators alone than KCD had developers.
As you say, expecting that kind of quality from anyone not named Rockstar is a bit naive.
A full time Rockstar developer average over 100k a year. A large portion of the 2000 people who worked on RDR2 were part time workers. Whether it be voice actors, marketers, producers, contracted people. For example, Larian has 400 plus developers, but over 2000 people worked on BG3

KCD2 cost a lot more than 45mil. At least double, imo. The studio size of War Horse is roughly 250 now. They probably averaged 200 people or so across the 6 years of development, paying them roughly 80k a year on average? That would be 95 plus million just to pay War Horse developers over 6 years. That is without factoring in probably 1000 plus people they hired outside of the studio to complete the game

I don't disagree with your overall point though. RDR2 probably had 7-800 developers working full time on RDR2. Nobody comes close to the resources of Rockstar
 

vkbest

Member
We were talking about npcs animations, the variety is astounding compared to other games, and gta6 looks 10x times better, that beach scene get me a semi every time i think about it.

And arthur animations are top class, being clunky to move doesn't make animations

RDR2 animations are trash. Sure, they looks good, but they are making artificially good adding 200 to 400ms input lag. I’m not playing movies, I’m playing video games.
 

clarky

Gold Member
All animations are based in your input, for example you pushing a NPC, so basically the full engine is using the latency to make better kinematic animations
No. i made the same mistake the person you quoted was talking about the quality of NPC animations, nothing to do with the fact that Red Dead controls like shit.
 
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Denton

Member
KCD2 cost a lot more than 45mil. At least double, imo.
I was not making that number up - Warhorse CEO confirmed in interview the cost is around 1 billion Czech Crowns, which is about 41 million USD.
Regarding Rockstar, I think of those 1600 those were core actual full time devs - all Rockstar studios worked on it simultaneously.
 

Idleyes

Member
You know what? And I don't think this was intentional, but right now, I feel like I want to kill that Ben lookalike even more than the guy who stabbed my father in the back or the King who orchestrated it all. Crazy right? He's such an annoying character, clearly a bitch, but somehow managed to get away by hiding behind that thug who stole my Lord's sword. As such, I don't mind a spoiler when I ask, do you eventually get to merry go round him to hell at some point?
 

GymWolf

Member
RDR2 animations are trash. Sure, they looks good, but they are making artificially good adding 200 to 400ms input lag. I’m not playing movies, I’m playing video games.
It was perfectly playable on console and even more on pc, not everything need to feel like a super fast and reactive game, especially not an immersive simulation like rdr2, many people love the heaviness of rockstar games, deal wth it.
 

vkbest

Member
It was perfectly playable on console and even more on pc, not everything need to feel like a super fast and reactive game, especially not an immersive simulation like rdr2, many people love the heaviness of rockstar games, deal wth it.
Sure, you can ask 1seg latency controls for GTA 6, Rockstar will be happy
 
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