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Magic: the Gathering |OT8| Eldritch Moon - It's only a paper (and digital) moon
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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She's worse than LotV, but she also has wildly conflicting abilities. Her -2 is only good in a creature deck, but being black and a noncreature, she doesn't really fit anywhere. Jund and Abzan just want LotV.
I'm OK that she's not LotV in a vacuum, even if I'm disappointed it's not a reprint. The initial disappointment has mostly subsided.
To judge her as her own card, so far I'm having trouble figuring out where/how she'll be useful in standard, let alone eternal formats. People making the Nissa arguments are why I'm taking my time trying to figure it out. I thought Nissa was god awful at first. So maybe this is better than it seems?
Nissa is good because of Gideon and Nissa's Oath. Without them, she wouldn't have seen much play. Guaranteed.
And Sylvan Advocate.
Nissa can take over a game on turn 3, if you played with her at all / tested her you would've seen it, I remember people being meh about her, and the fact that her ultimate is a legit threat of taking over the game is pretty big, so eventually they have to devote resources to her, and she protects herself outright to anything that doesn't have evasion.
Put it this way; In limited are you losing a game if you drop a turn 3 Nissa ? Probably not. What does this thing do for you in Limited ? Gravedigger is 4 mana and gets you a 2/2 and returns the creature to your hand, Macabre waltz gets you 2 creatures and you never had to pick one early.
I'm not primarily a black/blue player so maybe theres a control deck that wants her, but this feels weaker than narset, There's a small possibility theres a zulaport cut throat deck that want's this card, or some zombie deck but as a player looking across the table at this, I'm basically not scared of any of her abilities, or her ultimate.
Listen, just because people were wrong on jace doesn't mean that when a card seems bad that it's not because we mis-evaluated another card
A Serious Man
Member
Maybe she helps move U/B Zombies or G/B Delirium up a tier? I don't know, the fact that she's tilted more toward creature-heavy decks has me bummed.
Royal_Flush
Member
The flavor text on Oath of Liliana is so bad...
Not sure about Liliana herself. She seems quite bad at a first glance. But there is this symmetry with Jace Telepath Unbound where they both have a +1 that gives -2/-X (Lili even can kill stuff with it) and the -X lets you use a card from your graveyard. Both can be used with -X -> +1 -> -X. You maybe even want to use her ult if you ever get to it. The main questions here could be:
1) How much better or worse would this card be if instead of "creature" the -2 said "instant or sorcery" (in a control shell: a lot worse)
2) How crowded is your 3-drop slot compared to your 2-drop slot? (They both can't do their planeswalker stuff before T3)
3) How much does the starting loyalty matter? (In terms of easy-to-remove)
I'm not sure how good it is to compare this to a card that once was a 50$ standard card but the parallels are there...
Not sure about Liliana herself. She seems quite bad at a first glance. But there is this symmetry with Jace Telepath Unbound where they both have a +1 that gives -2/-X (Lili even can kill stuff with it) and the -X lets you use a card from your graveyard. Both can be used with -X -> +1 -> -X. You maybe even want to use her ult if you ever get to it. The main questions here could be:
1) How much better or worse would this card be if instead of "creature" the -2 said "instant or sorcery" (in a control shell: a lot worse)
2) How crowded is your 3-drop slot compared to your 2-drop slot? (They both can't do their planeswalker stuff before T3)
3) How much does the starting loyalty matter? (In terms of easy-to-remove)
I'm not sure how good it is to compare this to a card that once was a 50$ standard card but the parallels are there...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I was right with Nahiri and this Lili is shit.
Simply Sarah
Member
I'm kinda huh at Liliana. Her +1 is...OK I guess? I mean, I don't generally expect much from 3 CMC planeswalkers on their plus and it certainly helps her defend herself, but it's certainly not LotV. The -2 is fine but doesn't really synergize with her +1 at all. Her Ult doesn't exist unless you're explicitly using it as a win condition for some bizarre reason, in which case it probably still doesn't exist.
She's a lot different from Nissa since Nissa will often be quite happy to repeatedly +1 to fill your board with tokens and if she hits 7 loyalty this way then sure, you can consider using her ultimate and it probably wins the game for you immediately. On the other hand, it feel's like Lili's is often going to function purely as a way to gain loyalty to get multiple uses of the -2.
I dunno, I'm not that impressed but maybe she has a place in the right deck that can protect her long enough to get a lot of -2 usage out of her? I'm not really sold on that idea, though.
She's a lot different from Nissa since Nissa will often be quite happy to repeatedly +1 to fill your board with tokens and if she hits 7 loyalty this way then sure, you can consider using her ultimate and it probably wins the game for you immediately. On the other hand, it feel's like Lili's is often going to function purely as a way to gain loyalty to get multiple uses of the -2.
I dunno, I'm not that impressed but maybe she has a place in the right deck that can protect her long enough to get a lot of -2 usage out of her? I'm not really sold on that idea, though.
Selfless Soul
1W - Rare
Creature - Spirit Cleric
Flying
Sacrifice Selfless Soul: Creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
Dude is definitely cubable, plus Seb McKinnon art! Great card all around.
That Liliana seems very underwhelming at first glance. All that build up for this? I'm disappointed.
What control decks are left?
What control decks are left?
Keru_Shiri
Member
Oath actually seems good in a Superfriends build. Creature removal + a free blocker for each of your walkers as they come down. New Lili is underwhelming at first glance. I guess it'll depend on the prevalence of x/1 creatures in the format.
Didn't see this posted.
Kill it with fire.
Joe Molotov
Member
Didn't see this posted.
Planeswalker CoCo is not quite as good as regular CoCo.
GregLombardi
Member
Didn't see this posted.
Umm.
Wow.
Edit: My wow is at the potential for this card to be busted in older formats. Standard planeswalkers don't hold a candle though.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Edh Superfriends might get out of controlDidn't see this posted.
I'm considering it for zur EDH. Which doesn't even play a bunch of walkers but a tutor able edict affecting all players sounds great and being an etb effect also provides value with sun titan.
I don't get the emblem, -7 gets you 2 tokens then 4 then 8 but it's a goddamn ultimate and it hardly feels impactful. Eventually it will run away with the game but immediately you might still be dead the next turn.
Liliana is hot trash damn.
Maybe she's borderline playable in modern where her +1 is useful, but in legacy not killing even 1 mana plays (DRS, goblin guide, mom, etc...) make her hot garbage. She also want to be played in a zombie deck else her ultimate do actually nothing.
Her oath could be playable somewhere and it's ... decentish i guess.
Call the jacetice league seems really good... but then you remember that See the Unwritten does pretty much the same but better since it can straight win you the game, in better colors, and isn't played. So yeah, no.
Maybe she's borderline playable in modern where her +1 is useful, but in legacy not killing even 1 mana plays (DRS, goblin guide, mom, etc...) make her hot garbage. She also want to be played in a zombie deck else her ultimate do actually nothing.
Her oath could be playable somewhere and it's ... decentish i guess.
Call the jacetice league seems really good... but then you remember that See the Unwritten does pretty much the same but better since it can straight win you the game, in better colors, and isn't played. So yeah, no.
Royal_Flush
Member
ok, seriously now, can someone explain to me why the new Lili would be so incredibly much worse than Flip-Jace?
Probably post CoCo.
Doesn't come with looting. Doesn't flash back spells. Doesn't cost 2.
Giant Panda
Member
Her ultimate still works outside of a zombie deck. It's 2 plus the number of zombies you control, so even in a zombieless deck, it could go 2>6>14>30...
Doesn't start with 5 loyalty.
The +1 doesn't last longer than your turn, so it doesn't deter attackers.
Recurring cheap blue spells rocks. Recurring cheap black creatures is kinda eh.
Royal_Flush
Member
Ok. But she "flashes back" creatures. Jace also doesn't become a planeswalker until T3.
So you think it will be a lot more difficult to deal 1 damage than 2?
That's just wrong.
I could kind of see that.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Yeah...not a fan of this constant Gatewatch shenanigans. Lili seems shoehorned in, and her oath text is......ugh.
Hopefully it backs off (somewhat, I know Magic is chasing a core planeswalker narrative) after Emra is sealed/dies/runs off.
Hopefully it backs off (somewhat, I know Magic is chasing a core planeswalker narrative) after Emra is sealed/dies/runs off.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yeah it does, lasts till your next term. Still not great though
Misread it. You're 100% right. Still not a fantastic +1 though.
You need to read the card more closely.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
One day Liliana will wear a fur cloak in the desert.
charlequin
Banned
I think people are generally underestimating the value of Lili's -2, which is gonna be noticeably better than drawing a card in the deck you put her into, but the problem is that +1. Every other 3-drop PW has a + ability that either gives you cards or has some permanent board impact (even Ashiok in the sense that each time you + it, you increase the utility of its other abilities.) This one only protects her a little bit and isn't going to take almost anything off the board, so I don't think you get enough value just sitting there building her up to use the -2.
In general I'm not sure this set is clear about its goals for the Standard envirronment. On an official basis it should be aiming to make the madness Vampires deck click, strengthen the delirium deck, and make something like a blue/black emerge deck come together, which I'm not really seeing consciously pull together yet. On an informal level, they might not have realized what they needed to do was grind out GW strategies with this set, but regardless it doesn't look like they have done so.
The spider makes lots of spiders when you recur it in play (which you're gonna do because you have a green/black deck) and sits behind board stalls to blow guys away with big damage hits, people are gonna whine extra about it because a) commander players are all entitled now and b) they're still mad about Ulrich and are gonna want a second opportunity to bitch about it, but this really does seem fine for its actual intended purpose.
Deploy the Gatewatch.... erk.
In general I'm not sure this set is clear about its goals for the Standard envirronment. On an official basis it should be aiming to make the madness Vampires deck click, strengthen the delirium deck, and make something like a blue/black emerge deck come together, which I'm not really seeing consciously pull together yet. On an informal level, they might not have realized what they needed to do was grind out GW strategies with this set, but regardless it doesn't look like they have done so.
The spider makes lots of spiders when you recur it in play (which you're gonna do because you have a green/black deck) and sits behind board stalls to blow guys away with big damage hits, people are gonna whine extra about it because a) commander players are all entitled now and b) they're still mad about Ulrich and are gonna want a second opportunity to bitch about it, but this really does seem fine for its actual intended purpose.
Deploy the Gatewatch.... erk.
You're right about point one. But do you really think flashing back creatures is going to be as powerful as flashing back spells? What creature is on the power level of CoCo? Then you get into the fact that she has 2 black in her cmc while Jace only has 1 blue, making her a lot less splashable, not to mention she costs 3 total to his 2.
To your second point, Jace is not good strictly because of his PW side. It's how the total package is used. You're honestly comparing apples to oranges with these two cards.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh whew I misread this at first and didn't realize it was a "may" effect. If it was mandatory I was like "did they just print a card you actively don't want to play?"
I think comparing her to Nissa is more appropriate. Useful abilities, but might not shine unless the right deck appears.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Oh man the SCG guys are all playing Jeskai EDH decks for 4th of July. Genius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8u0Ho3L3Y
I actually am more excited about this land than any other card. It can almost blank whole decks at the cost of not tapping for coloured mana. Especially in EDH whenever someone wheels.
It doesn't even CIPT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8u0Ho3L3Y
Oh whew I misread this at first and didn't realize it was a "may" effect. If it was mandatory I was like "did they just print a card you actively don't want to play?"
I actually am more excited about this land than any other card. It can almost blank whole decks at the cost of not tapping for coloured mana. Especially in EDH whenever someone wheels.
It doesn't even CIPT
I agree. Currently, CoCo makes her +1 garbage, so it'll be hard for her to find a place right now.
Simply Sarah
Member
Seems like we have similar reads on the card. It feels like the +1 needed to be something like exiling a creature from a graveyard to create a Zombie token or something to defend her. It also would have fit better with her other two abilities.
charlequin
Banned
Or just buff it to -2/-2, which is just one digit off but worlds away in practical board value. (Or even -3/-1.)
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