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Mirror's Edge achievement designer: "Achievements and Trophies have been bad for gaming"
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
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- Opinion News Drama
Icymanipulator
Member
I turned the notifications for them completely off on my PS5. “Diverts Attention” couldn’t be more true. It’s especially disgusting during an important story scene.
That said, I do like that trophies exist generally speaking. I’m no trophy hunter, I have like 6 plats since PS4 era lol BUT for those few games that I absolutely love, trophies are a great way to go back and spend more time in that games world and atmosphere. It’s an excuse to play something you really really like more. Trophies should never be the focal point, but a bonus of your having fun.
Another completely different argument that could be made is that trophies help different genres in different ways. Shorter arcade style games like beatemups and shmups benefit from having trophies imo. Gives those games with less content more goals to do within their smaller parameters.
That said, I do like that trophies exist generally speaking. I’m no trophy hunter, I have like 6 plats since PS4 era lol BUT for those few games that I absolutely love, trophies are a great way to go back and spend more time in that games world and atmosphere. It’s an excuse to play something you really really like more. Trophies should never be the focal point, but a bonus of your having fun.
Another completely different argument that could be made is that trophies help different genres in different ways. Shorter arcade style games like beatemups and shmups benefit from having trophies imo. Gives those games with less content more goals to do within their smaller parameters.
Holammer
Member
Achievements offer a meta gameplay aspect a lot of people enjoy. Vampire Survivors is a good example where they are implemented *beautifully*, there they add a handful with every update. Giving veteran players a reason to regularly engage with the product again, boosting engagement numbers -> word of mouth & store visibility -> more sales. It's the perfect crime
Implemented correctly with it also offers valuable metrics. Less than 1% of players saw the ending? Your game might be too hard.
Implemented correctly with it also offers valuable metrics. Less than 1% of players saw the ending? Your game might be too hard.
Drizzlehell
Banned
He made those games for some of the biggest publishers in the world, and one of them was a 4 hour long platformer. Bitch please, he's like the least qualified person to complain about lack of resources. If some no-name indie devs find no issue with consistently releasing their games with a bunch of achievements, then it only makes this tweet sound even more pathetic and whiny.
I don't get the whining about diverting attention or whatever either. Achievements are like the one positive thing that came out of all the other bullshit that became common during 7th generation. They don't affect the games in the slightest because they exist outside of the games, they provide extra replay value for completionists, and if you don't care then you're free to just ignore them completely. Which isn't the same that can be said about day 1 DLCs, MTX, in-game currencies, lootboxes, and all the other intrusive bullshit that has a documented history of actually ruining a bunch of games.
Seriously, fuck that guy and his stupid-ass take.
I don't get the whining about diverting attention or whatever either. Achievements are like the one positive thing that came out of all the other bullshit that became common during 7th generation. They don't affect the games in the slightest because they exist outside of the games, they provide extra replay value for completionists, and if you don't care then you're free to just ignore them completely. Which isn't the same that can be said about day 1 DLCs, MTX, in-game currencies, lootboxes, and all the other intrusive bullshit that has a documented history of actually ruining a bunch of games.
Seriously, fuck that guy and his stupid-ass take.
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BaneIsPain
Member
Please remove the online-based trophies/achievements would be fine by me.
SenkiDala
Member
He's right. But they don't have, or shouldn't have, to put "that" many ressources on that.
I've been into achivements in the early stage of the 360, during like 3 years and half, since then I try to complete the games that I absolutly loved and if the achivements aren't "crazy" (like needs 9 walkthrough, in 6 different difficulties, or multiplayer ones).
But I agree it's distractive, I've never done it but I've seen sooo many times behaviors that I feel are not sane, or good at all, when you play a game. It's for exemple deciding to buy or not a game if the achivements are easy or not, it's publishers like ratakakataa games (always forget their shitty name but anyway they don't deserve any respect so whatever) who publish only games that you can 100% in 3 minutes, it's gamers going on their first playthrough with an achievement guide on their laps.
It's not how the games were meant to be played, it's like people watching an 1h40 movie in 3 parts because they can't remain focused on the movie for 1h40 straight (I'm not blaming anyone, I do this too but I know it affects my vision of the movie).
About the ressources I think they should just make the game the way they want, without thinking about the achievements AT ALL, and when the game's done, just make "finish chapter 1, 2, 3" and "go through that level in less than 1 hour" or some little funny trials, and that's good enough.
Oh, one thing I think they're good for, it's for memories. When I go through my achievements or trophies list, especially since screenshots, it makes me very happy to remind all those memories, recently I saw my 1000G on Tokyo Highway Challenge on 360 and I remembered how much I loved that game, the races, etc, it brought back good memories and that's great.
I've been into achivements in the early stage of the 360, during like 3 years and half, since then I try to complete the games that I absolutly loved and if the achivements aren't "crazy" (like needs 9 walkthrough, in 6 different difficulties, or multiplayer ones).
But I agree it's distractive, I've never done it but I've seen sooo many times behaviors that I feel are not sane, or good at all, when you play a game. It's for exemple deciding to buy or not a game if the achivements are easy or not, it's publishers like ratakakataa games (always forget their shitty name but anyway they don't deserve any respect so whatever) who publish only games that you can 100% in 3 minutes, it's gamers going on their first playthrough with an achievement guide on their laps.
It's not how the games were meant to be played, it's like people watching an 1h40 movie in 3 parts because they can't remain focused on the movie for 1h40 straight (I'm not blaming anyone, I do this too but I know it affects my vision of the movie).
About the ressources I think they should just make the game the way they want, without thinking about the achievements AT ALL, and when the game's done, just make "finish chapter 1, 2, 3" and "go through that level in less than 1 hour" or some little funny trials, and that's good enough.
Oh, one thing I think they're good for, it's for memories. When I go through my achievements or trophies list, especially since screenshots, it makes me very happy to remind all those memories, recently I saw my 1000G on Tokyo Highway Challenge on 360 and I remembered how much I loved that game, the races, etc, it brought back good memories and that's great.
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I love good achievements and ignore bad ones. Easy as that. I think I’ve only got 100% on a handful of games, ones where you could easily get most of them just by playing naturally, and a few unique ones that weren’t too hard to pull off.
For me it gives you a little extra incentive to use all of the systems in a game, use powers/gadgets/whatever that you might not otherwise. And it’s always fun when it feels really meta, like you and the developer sharing the same thought.
For me it gives you a little extra incentive to use all of the systems in a game, use powers/gadgets/whatever that you might not otherwise. And it’s always fun when it feels really meta, like you and the developer sharing the same thought.
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SenkiDala
Member
I don't agree on that, no they're not AT ALL optional. Yes you can play without caring them. But you NEED to have a profil picture, it isn't possible to turn off that functionality, you can turn of the pop up but yes on your profile you'll always have trophies unlocked. And for people like me with OCDs sometimes it's hard to manage, trust me, I try to ignore them but it's hard. If they release an option to totally ERASE your trophies from your profile and never unlock any again, I'd do it for sure. I try to 100% only the games I perfectly loved (I'd do it with or without trophies), but I can say I spent thoussands of hours on games that I didn't like that much, just because I felt pressured to do so.They are completely optional. No one needs to "chase" after them and the resources working on implementing achievements are giving some people something to chase after.
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flying_sq
Member
They were neat in the PS3/360 era, but I normally forget they exist now. Never been a completionist, and don't care about my gamer score or trophy count. I will look at what a game has once in awhile if I have played it a bunch, I do like the ones that ask you to try and play the game differently. Pistols or melee only kind of thing, or playing a class game with a class I normally don't play. I have run into some achievements that talked about content in games I didn't know existed in the game. I wouldn't have known the Jak and Daxter precursor orbs were in the Uncharted series without trophies.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
yup, theyre dumb
The Infectious Paradox
Gold Member
What a dumb thing to say. Trophies are literally a to each their own thing. Do I care about them? Not at all. But I bet there are huge numbers of people that love trophies. My best friend is a completionist, and he thrives off those and it gives him a reason to keep playing games. I feel like people such as him are on the rise too lately. Anyway, this dude just sounds jaded to me.
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Dr. Claus
Banned
Look into RetroAchievmeents. Lot of fun!
ShadyAcshuns
Member
This.
Radrigal
Member
I would have to agree here. It's a bit of fun when done right; you know, the primary reason why we bother with video games in the first place?
But when you're just banging out achievements for completing the chapters or episodes of a game, when it becomes 'collect all 69,420 origami blobfish' but some of them are story progression and playthrough locked and you have to get them all in one go or start over a new save file and shit, it becomes a fucking drag.
I also liked it more in the old days when some achievements led to real in game rewards, like a bonus weapon or power, maybe cheats, something tangible, even if it was just a costume or skin, instead of just being a literal checkmark in a list or points that don't matter.
gioGAF
Member
I agree. They have been implemented only for the benefit of the corporate overlords. The excuse that is always used is "if you don't like them, ignore them". However, they are designed by people who know about human behavior, to entice and rope in certain players into spending more time with the game and/or purchasing extra stuff to make getting the reward easier. Tracking player behavior is another primary purpose. "Challenges" have existed in all sorts of games for a long time, there was no need for Achievements/Trophies other than the swindle.
They are a manipulation tool and if they were really something that was to your benefit, they would allow you to remove the "feature" from your game completely (turning off notifications doesn't do anything, the data is always there). Microsoft started this nonsense, and Microsoft is really only good at bending you over. Sony followed suit because they saw what was happening. Achievements served as a way to tie gamers to the MS ecosystem, to provide a sense of loss to those who tried to game somewhere else (again this is most effective on certain people, like those with a propensity to addiction or other personality traits such as OCD-like behavior).
In our modern time, there are few actual games left. Most are gambling simulators or vehicles for monetization. Kudos to Nintendo for not bending the knee and to developers who still create actual games.
They are a manipulation tool and if they were really something that was to your benefit, they would allow you to remove the "feature" from your game completely (turning off notifications doesn't do anything, the data is always there). Microsoft started this nonsense, and Microsoft is really only good at bending you over. Sony followed suit because they saw what was happening. Achievements served as a way to tie gamers to the MS ecosystem, to provide a sense of loss to those who tried to game somewhere else (again this is most effective on certain people, like those with a propensity to addiction or other personality traits such as OCD-like behavior).
In our modern time, there are few actual games left. Most are gambling simulators or vehicles for monetization. Kudos to Nintendo for not bending the knee and to developers who still create actual games.
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sainraja
Member
I mean, sure, it wouldn't hurt to have the option to hide trophies for the games you don't care about.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Rockondevil
Member
It can definitely add some replayability for me to a game if the achievements are fun and actually achievable.
Some games it hardly matters on though.
Some games it hardly matters on though.
JimmyRustler
Member
I have my ups and downs with cheevos. Used to love them at first, then it often became too much of a grind and I stopped. Years later I started getting into them again but I think that many are still doing them wrong. Love how Sony is handling it with their games lately. Nice and easy and encourage to exlore everything in the game without difficulties and grinding.
Achievements in multiplayer games can create "feet-chewing troglodytes" when some fuckwit on your team is doing some stupid shit for an achievement. They shouldn't exist in any team based multiplayer game, same with any unlocks that have people diverging from actually being a team member. They can do whatever they want in singleplayer modes/games, don't care.
remember_spinal
Banned
I’m not sure how people can feel so strongly about them tbh
I usually ignore them unless its a game i really enjoy playing (god of war, ratchet, horizon, persona) then it gives me just a bit of incentive to squeeze some more playtime out of them.
Otherwise i usually ignore them, especially if they look tedious or time consuming
I usually ignore them unless its a game i really enjoy playing (god of war, ratchet, horizon, persona) then it gives me just a bit of incentive to squeeze some more playtime out of them.
Otherwise i usually ignore them, especially if they look tedious or time consuming
abstract alien
Member
It's not the trophies and achievements themselves that are bad. It's actually a good idea implemented in the "wrong" way. Not only are they extremely disconnected from the games visually and audio wise, but you get them for doing anything. Doing a generally hard and/or complex task should give you one if they are going to be implemented. How the hell is doing the tutorial or completing the game an achievement compared to what everyone else is doing. It completely devalues the function, and there is no real benefit to having a score or for someone to even look at what you've done.
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SkylineRKR
Member
If you check game by game, most games have shitty achievements (I will only use this word in this post even for PS games). But the rare few games have good achievements, and with that I mean the whole list is fair to accomplish, doesn't eat lots of your time and are generally fun to get.
Like Sonic Frontiers has fun achievements... until you need to grind stats to max level (which is useless in many ways, it eats time.. the game is already easy enough to beat a like level 40 with 10 speed.. etc). So I will probably never get those last few ones, I don't see the point. Elden Ring has the same problem, most of them are fun to get, come naturally by exploration and the odd tough challenge here and there like a super tough boss. But the different ending ones are trash, however, like Souls you can upload your save on forehand. FFVII R, fun cheevos, I went a little bit out of my way for the different dresses, which gives you different questlines and I would take a shot at Pride and Joy etc, something I normally wouldn't do. But I hate the whack a box and pull up shit minigames.
Like Sonic Frontiers has fun achievements... until you need to grind stats to max level (which is useless in many ways, it eats time.. the game is already easy enough to beat a like level 40 with 10 speed.. etc). So I will probably never get those last few ones, I don't see the point. Elden Ring has the same problem, most of them are fun to get, come naturally by exploration and the odd tough challenge here and there like a super tough boss. But the different ending ones are trash, however, like Souls you can upload your save on forehand. FFVII R, fun cheevos, I went a little bit out of my way for the different dresses, which gives you different questlines and I would take a shot at Pride and Joy etc, something I normally wouldn't do. But I hate the whack a box and pull up shit minigames.
The Cockatrice
Banned
Im mixed on achievements. I dont generally chase them or try to do all of them which means I dont care that much, however if I play a game on the hardest difficulty or do something out of the ordinary/not easy and I get an achievement for it, it feels good, like a surprise.
TonyK
Member
I agree. After platinum several games (20 since I have the PS5) I disabled all notifications for trophy and achievements (in XBOX) and I'm playing now without accomplishing them. I hated how I ended playing in ways I don't like only to get a trophy, o repeating dozens of times a section to farm something I don't care only for the trophy.
That's more the fault on the developer, I believe on the 360 they could set where the popup notifications would appear, some games would leave them at the default (bottom center of the screen) but some would display at the top left or right.
Alx
Member
Coming from a developer I can understand that any standard becomes a restriction that can get in the way of other priorities. But achievements themselves aren't exactly new, many games had optional goals/challenges in their design, starting with "100%" completion or different easter eggs.
In the end you can use the achievement standards to highlight parts of your game design, or if you don't care you can just turn them into a progress tracker by unlocking them after each step of your game and be done with it.
In the end you can use the achievement standards to highlight parts of your game design, or if you don't care you can just turn them into a progress tracker by unlocking them after each step of your game and be done with it.
Team Andromeda
Member
I quite agree when it comes to Online gaming. I remember when Online gaming was fun and friendly on the Dreamcast and OG Xbox.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
This so much, and daily.
I remember how many times me and my squad died becuase one idiot would be right far bag becuase they had to do something with sniper rifles or some bullshit and not playing the game then use some shit excuse like...I was covering you....
Daily and online achievements suck.
Achievements are like challenges list in many games, but instead of making them inside the game and only visible to you, they linked them to the profile so your friends can see and compare. I believe they are nice addition to gaming, tbh, there are a lot of games mechanics that I didn't pay attention to but the achievement taught me about. but like challenges, it must be made to make the game more fun, not like "complete chapter 1, 2, 3 and beat the game"..
But I wonder if there is a connection between what he said and what Steam users ask Ubisoft to add in recent releases on Steam!
But I wonder if there is a connection between what he said and what Steam users ask Ubisoft to add in recent releases on Steam!
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Drizzlehell
Banned
True, we can at least agree that having them in multiplayer is dumb as hell for multiple reasons. For example, are so many games on PS3 that are impossible to platinum because MP no longer works there.
Seems like these days only the Call of Duty devs seem to understand it as they're the only ones who don't put any MP achievements in their games.
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NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
He’s mostly right, because achievements are rarely at the service of the game, or the player.
Some of them may encourage you to actually go beyond the scope of just finishing the game, but do you really need a reward for finding alternative endings or hidden areas? We used to do that in pre-achievement JRPGs. Having an achievement for that only preys on our compulsive mind. With achievements every game has two 100% conditions to satisfy - the game’s, and the cheevo list’s. Achievements tied to multiplayer are the perfect example - you may have 100%ed the single player part, yet you cheevo list may be only at 50% or less.
And let’s face it, so many achievements are about doing the most inane things. Use a complicated move that you’ll never be asked to use in the actual game. Do 1000 jumps in the rope game. Collect every single item/creature. Kill X enemies of a certain type, take every character to max level, fight more battles than you’ll ever need to. Any achievement that needs a grind to be satisfied, well beyond what you’d do even in an extensive playthrough, is not going to make you experience the game better. And those are still way more than they should be.
And let’s not forget that the cheevo compulsion has been very useful in making people buy games that don’t even deserve to be on the market, just ’cuz they’re an easy platinum.
Sure, you can ignore achievements and sometimes they can be an incentive to explore more of the game. But they’re not a net pro for the user, far from it.
Some of them may encourage you to actually go beyond the scope of just finishing the game, but do you really need a reward for finding alternative endings or hidden areas? We used to do that in pre-achievement JRPGs. Having an achievement for that only preys on our compulsive mind. With achievements every game has two 100% conditions to satisfy - the game’s, and the cheevo list’s. Achievements tied to multiplayer are the perfect example - you may have 100%ed the single player part, yet you cheevo list may be only at 50% or less.
And let’s face it, so many achievements are about doing the most inane things. Use a complicated move that you’ll never be asked to use in the actual game. Do 1000 jumps in the rope game. Collect every single item/creature. Kill X enemies of a certain type, take every character to max level, fight more battles than you’ll ever need to. Any achievement that needs a grind to be satisfied, well beyond what you’d do even in an extensive playthrough, is not going to make you experience the game better. And those are still way more than they should be.
And let’s not forget that the cheevo compulsion has been very useful in making people buy games that don’t even deserve to be on the market, just ’cuz they’re an easy platinum.
Sure, you can ignore achievements and sometimes they can be an incentive to explore more of the game. But they’re not a net pro for the user, far from it.
