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bitbydeath
Member
Yea Xcloud is definitely copying Sony. No way would Cloud first company like MS EVER go full into streaming. Jesus...
M.Night Shyamalan
Member
And that the plan changed in 2017 to not launch 2019, but categorically launch in 2020 with RT instead?
No because that will blow the power budget and the money you save on fab costs you spend on wasted dies (that don't hit the required frequency targets), on extra cooling, on heavier packaging (and therfor transport costs).
What you actually do is you use N7+ because EUV is cheaper than quad patterning on the layers that need it and it is smaller so doing a 52-58CU design is far more viable and it makes it easier to hit the clock/power sweetspot.
The reason Renoir cut down on CUs and increased clock speed (to still be in the sweet spot for Vega on 7nm of sub 1800Mhz) is because more GPU performance was not really attainable due to bandwidth limitations. Reducing the CUs meant that they could fit in more L3 cache for the CPUs while sticking to a 150mm^2 die size.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
You missed the cutBGs , should we request they add you at 13.8?
He said his 13.8 was just a made up number bcus he couldn't use the real one. So it's probably something like 13.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Where did you get that out of my statement?
I am not talking "copying". I am talking enthusiast fanatics who make fun of anything less than 144hz, no VRR, and TVs that have anything over 20ms response time that used to shit on game streaming with PSNow, Stadia, etc., funny enough go to defense over xCloud and use it in their fanatic talking points.
That is your projection and poor reading comprehension of the context.
I say, fuck all game streaming no matter who does it, bruv.
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And what happens if RDNA2 clocks higher + is made on 7nm+ node? Then suddenly, these clocks will not blow your power budget and even if you need more to cool it, its less expensive then additional 50-60mm2 of chip?
Fun Fanboy
Banned
Lol. Well damn. I thought you were talking about streaming games, like twitch and mixer. Sheesh. Take a bong toke!!
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I remember him being Spanish, I'm Italian actually.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Now you know why they call him the greatest boxer of all time!
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bitbydeath
Member
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I feel like MS is content to let the VR market mature, then just out of the blue say XSX is now compatible with Oculus and Vive VR. Not my thing, but the appeal is understandable.
For streaming, xCloud is current limited to phones, but doing it over WiFi with a Bluetooth controller is the hardest scenario to tackle. Once they drop it on PC or console where you can have wired internet and even wired controllers it will be that much better. MS and Sony are partnering for their Cloud services, so I'm not sure why that needs to be a console war bullet point?
How cool would it be if you could just buy a package like Game Pass Ultimate that includes xCloud, and stream Lockhart-quality gfx from day 1 with just a membership fee? Right to your phone, Xbox One, or PC.
For streaming, xCloud is current limited to phones, but doing it over WiFi with a Bluetooth controller is the hardest scenario to tackle. Once they drop it on PC or console where you can have wired internet and even wired controllers it will be that much better. MS and Sony are partnering for their Cloud services, so I'm not sure why that needs to be a console war bullet point?
How cool would it be if you could just buy a package like Game Pass Ultimate that includes xCloud, and stream Lockhart-quality gfx from day 1 with just a membership fee? Right to your phone, Xbox One, or PC.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Maybe it is because Sony sold like 60M more consoles than Microsoft this gen and it has been in the gaming indrustry since 1995.
Look at me, I have this 2 meaningful memories from my childhood:
This one from Sony:
And this one from Microsoft:
So, as you could imagine, I am a one-sided person in this matter but you will not see me spreading crap and misinformation about Xbox.
Happy with your 12ft machine? Good for you
That's pretty much why I hate Microsoft as a whole, it's not personal with Xbox
Gotta admit, the Windows 10 is a decent system, at last! But I'm running a high end PC anyway, so can't tell.Then great, you can up the spec last minute if yields and power consumption allow for it.
What you want to avoid though (considering you are designing this thing years in advance of knowing for sure what the sweet spots will be) is you give yourself the best opporunity to balance die size with performance with power consumption so you probably stick to something in the 350-400mm region since that means you can scale the final clocks up or down depending on where the node actually lands while still achieving your minimum desired improvement.
This goes doubly so when you know your competitor is going to be using the exact same tech as you (pretty much).
The only reason PS5 will end up with 36 CUs is if Sony were intending to release a console that was roughly double the PS4 Pro (in terms of TFlops, not FPS/Flop) and was targeting the $399 price point again. If it is 36CUs @ 2Ghz that 2Ghz probably came about partly because the node + architecture allows for it to go that high and partly because of what MS is doing and Sony are trying to close that gap somewhat.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Well, I don’t know how big GDC is and how many big companies are left, but maybe it gets delayed or outright cancelled for 2020.
Disco_
Member
I'd wager AMD wouldn't have placed any orders with tsmc in 2017 for a mid 2019 production run.
TSMC was still urging clients to place their 7nm orders for 2020 as recently as december. Apple switched over to 5nm and opened up another 30k wafers for AMD. Now TSMC are reporting increasing production from 95k to 105k wafers per month. Those examples are just there to show how much flexibility they have. There would be no strain on any relationships.
If anything, the the change possibly helped AMD. NAVI was originally due in 2018 and with that being delayed, AMD somehow managed to launch a 7nm card that just happened to have a 1800mhz max clock. everyone is happy
sonomamashine
Member
xool
Member
7nm+ is going to is getting a clock uptick (+10% maybe) .. and RDNA2 chips will probably get that too .. but that's different from pushing to clocks to the limits of what is possible (eg 2GHz 7nm, 2.1 or whatever at 7+)
..7nm "ideal" (commercially - look at producrs) clock seems to be ~1.7GHz .. I don't think 7nm+ is going to be mainstream at 2GHz or higher, more like 1.8-1.85GHz .. which isn't enough
..tbh not 100% sure I read your post right
IkarugaDE
Member
That's pretty much why I hate Microsoft as a whole, it's not personal with Xbox
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Most PC builders don't follow suggestions of motherboard's tested parts that are 100% safe. I stock only with the PDF from ASUS and only bought parts from the listed approved parts. When opened it the fucking thing was so happy that it was overclocking 4.3Ghz (which is max, base is 3.7Ghz for 2700x), and had to lock it to 3.7Ghz from the bios.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
Im betting 1 month Ban that PS5 IS 14 TF! (+ - 1 TF)
Sad to see you go.
Gudji
Member
Im betting 1 month Ban that PS5 IS 14 TF! (+ - 1 TF)
I like the confidence that's the way to go!
nikolino840
Member
I Hope the same date for the release of ps5 Xbox..we can make party for the new gen 
I was all in on PS5 being 8TF/9TF
Reasons
- GitHub leak
- Leak of BoM where Sony aimed for just over $400 but got but with price surge
- Sony's silence, Microsoft being so confidence and stating the TF first
- Series X console design being a PC tower, perhaps PS5 being a traditional size which means they can't hit 12TF
- 8-9TF isn't that bad it's a traditional jump in next gen power it's just MS went bonkers with 12TF
However on the flip side, I can see PS5 being 12TF
- Patent of disabling CUs for backwards compatibility, showing that Github leak isn't the full story
- No RT shown on GitHub when Sony announced they do have hardware raytracing
- Rumour Sony having issues getting Backwards compatibility perfect and GitHub could potentially be a Backwards compatibility test
- The idea Sony going for 36CU when One X even had more CU, is Cerny that incompetent?
- Sony being one of the first to be partners with AMD to develop Navi, can they really end up with such a bad deal when MS got the best hardware
- Sony just having shit communication lately in general so this silence is nothing to fear, remember when they talked about RT, then later confirmed its hardware when they could have just stated it to begin with
- Some insiders saying PS5 is stronger or nearly the same in power
It's a toss up, we can all speculate all day but in the end without another crazy leak or a official announcement we will never be 100 percent sure. I originally was leaning towards PS5 being 8-9TF now having thought about it longer it think it's a toss up.
Reasons
- GitHub leak
- Leak of BoM where Sony aimed for just over $400 but got but with price surge
- Sony's silence, Microsoft being so confidence and stating the TF first
- Series X console design being a PC tower, perhaps PS5 being a traditional size which means they can't hit 12TF
- 8-9TF isn't that bad it's a traditional jump in next gen power it's just MS went bonkers with 12TF
However on the flip side, I can see PS5 being 12TF
- Patent of disabling CUs for backwards compatibility, showing that Github leak isn't the full story
- No RT shown on GitHub when Sony announced they do have hardware raytracing
- Rumour Sony having issues getting Backwards compatibility perfect and GitHub could potentially be a Backwards compatibility test
- The idea Sony going for 36CU when One X even had more CU, is Cerny that incompetent?
- Sony being one of the first to be partners with AMD to develop Navi, can they really end up with such a bad deal when MS got the best hardware
- Sony just having shit communication lately in general so this silence is nothing to fear, remember when they talked about RT, then later confirmed its hardware when they could have just stated it to begin with
- Some insiders saying PS5 is stronger or nearly the same in power
It's a toss up, we can all speculate all day but in the end without another crazy leak or a official announcement we will never be 100 percent sure. I originally was leaning towards PS5 being 8-9TF now having thought about it longer it think it's a toss up.
DrDamn
Member
bitbydeath
Member
Im betting 1 month Ban that PS5 IS 14 TF! (+ - 1 TF)
Did you hear something?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
FeiRR
Banned
Just a friendly advice: ban bets used to be bannable at the dawn of this gen. I know it's been 7 years, no idea what's the current policy.Im betting 1 month Ban that PS5 IS 14 TF! (+ - 1 TF)
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Cheap, unreliable power supplies are a big issue as well. I've learned the hard way that the PSU is heart of your build, so don't cheap out, go a tier above what you think you might need, and always check pro reviews. JonnyGURU is a good site for PSU reviews, and Actually Hardcore Overclocking with Buildzoid is good for motherboard testing.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Niked
Member
Nope, I just think I solved the puzzel when I read through all the leaks, hints and conversations.
Mendou
Banned
Here are some of the most interesting leaks I found:
Given Sony's custom solutions in the past, it sounds believable that they would make as much use as possible with the hardware they're given. With how excited they are about their SSD, I can just imagine Cerny's grin if he ever read this.
The jump between the PS4 to the PS4 Pro was to double the compute units that they had from 18 to 36. That was twice the compute units for their mid-generation jump for the same $400. For the PS5, I don't believe they would simply add another 18 compute units. They would instead once again multiply the compute units by two - meaning that the 36 compute units in the PS4 Pro would become 72 compute units for their next generation console.
Supposing that in 2017 they wanted to release the ~8tf PS5 in 2019 for $400 only to later change plans, a good argument can be made that it's too late to create a new chip between that time frame. This would be solved however if they decided to instead use two of their already-developed 36cu chip to make a 72cu PS5. There are however a few assumptions with this theory that need to be noted:
1. They'll be willing to take a bigger loss on this new system given the success of PSN and greater competition from Microsoft.
2. They could renegotiate with AMD to buy more chips at a lower cost.
3. The Bloomberg article's source is untrustworthy about the $450 BOM.
4. Sony is willing to price their 'premium' console at or above $500.
If my theory is true, then the expensive cooling solution hinted at with the Bloomberg article wasn't particularly to cool a 2GHZ chip, but to instead cool the dual chip setup that once they realised what Microsoft was up to.
Don't get too excited though. This is my own speculation.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Spent a total fo 100+ hours of youtube reviews before even ordering anything. You must no from others and learn from their mistakes if you don't wanna be sorry. And the power supply been one of the most notable stuff that some had issues because of going cheap. Motherboard maps are also HUGE. I was planning for 2 NVMe m.2 but the second would actually draw power out of the GPU lines! It's very insane the more you go deeper, so whenever you wanna pay big money you must always learn, read and dig deeper.
Hawking Radiation
Member
PS5 has to be 12+ TF
They are throwing in a very expensive cooling solution as well so there's that. It may be to keep the system super quiet OR to push the system to its limits to squeeze out the last bit of performance while staying relatively quiet.
Jason Schrier and other reliable insiders also claimed that both consoles are very close in power and are essentially next gen twins. You don't get that with one console being 12TF and the other sitting at 9TF.
sonomamashine
Member
For what ?
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Updated what?
At 5 is the susposed announcement that was leaked on pastbin.
Niked
Member
This is one of two leaks I have seen that makes me so sure we will see a 14tf PS5Here are some of the most interesting leaks I found:
Given Sony's custom solutions in the past, it sounds believable that they would make as much use as possible with the hardware they're given. With how excited they are about their SSD, I can just imagine Cerny's grin if he ever read this.
The jump between the PS4 to the PS4 Pro was to double the compute units that they had from 18 to 36. That was twice the compute units for their mid-generation jump for the same $400. For the PS5, I don't believe they would simply add another 18 compute units. They would instead once again multiply the compute units by two - meaning that the 36 compute units in the PS4 Pro would become 72 compute units for their next generation console.
Supposing that in 2017 they wanted to release the ~8tf PS5 in 2019 for $400 only to later change plans, a good argument can be made that it's too late to create a new chip between that time frame. This would be solved however if they decided to instead use two of their already-developed 36cu chip to make a 72cu PS5. There are however a few assumptions with this theory that need to be noted:
1. They'll be willing to take a bigger loss on this new system given the success of PSN and greater competition from Microsoft.
2. They could renegotiate with AMD to buy more chips at a lower cost.
3. The Bloomberg article's source is untrustworthy about the $450 BOM.
4. Sony is willing to price their 'premium' console at or above $500.
If my theory is true, then the expensive cooling solution hinted at with the Bloomberg article wasn't particularly to cool a 2GHZ chip, but to instead cool the dual chip setup that once they realised what Microsoft was up to.
Don't get too excited though. This is my own speculation.
NickFire
Member
Although I want PS5 to be close or better in specs, until Sony goes on the record I do not put any stock in anyone's claim they will be close. For one simple reason - if your company was making games for PS, or if your company needs access / advertising from Sony, wouldn't you want to keep Sony happy? I know I would, and if my income depended in part on Sony, calling 9 and 12 close wouldn't be that hard to justify in my mind. To be crystal clear though - I am not accusing any insider or journalist of what I know I would do.
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