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[LordOcidax]

The number actually produced was more than 160 million. Sony said 160 million so that is the number. If you are going to start doubting sales numbers because of nonsensical shit like retail units then do the same for Nintendo.

I know that nobody is going to change that Number, but that adjustment doesn’t make any sense… I think is was more a desperate marketing stunt at the end.

 

[Topher]

I do not remember a single console getting revised sales figures eleven years after it stoped being produced.

Ok, but were is the PS3 adjustment? Why only affected the PS2 number?

The theory is that the PS2 sales were reported as PS3 sales in the financial report.

No, they were not reported as PS3s. Kaz Hirai combined PS2 and PS3 sales numbers early in the PS3 generation to hide the PS3's poor numbers. The final PS3 number was revealed a few years ago. It had previously been 84m and the final number was 87m.

I know that nobody is going to change that Number, but that adjustment doesn’t make any sense… I think is was more a desperate marketing stunt at the end.

A desperate marketing stunt for a console no longer made? Believe what you want then

 

[LordOcidax]

No, they were not reported as PS3s. Kaz Hirai combined PS2 and PS3 sales numbers early in the PS3 generation to hide the PS3's poor numbers. The final PS3 number was revealed a few years ago. It had previously been 84m and the final number was

I remember pretty well and that was the theory with the financial reports. And… you are contradicting yourself…

 

[Topher]

I remember pretty well and that was the theory with the financial reports. And… you are contradicting yourself…

No, I am not. Counting PS2s as PS3 sales is not the same as combining the sales into one number. Kaz Hirai made it clear that was what he was doing. He had to. Providing false data to investors is illegal.

 

[LordOcidax]

No, I am not. Counting PS2s as PS3 sales is not the same as combining the sales into one number. Kaz Hirai made it clear that was what he was doing. He had to. Providing false data to investors is illegal.

If it was that clear, is was easy to know the PS2 sales number then, and it was not like that… In their financials the theory was that PS3 and PS2 sales were mixed and reported as PS3 sales… As you said, is illegal to hide sales numbers..

A desperate marketing stunt for a console no longer made? Believe what you want then

Having the best seller console of all time is a hell of a marketing weapon, and nobody wants to lose that…

 

[TheGodfather07]

No, I am not. Counting PS2s as PS3 sales is not the same as combining the sales into one number. Kaz Hirai made it clear that was what he was doing. He had to. Providing false data to investors is illegal.

Just give up. Reality is reality, so let them believe whatever crap they want to make up in their heads. It wont change reality. One guy even said PS2 only sold 145m. How he came to that conclusion, I'll never know!

 

[Topher]

If it was that clear, is was easy to know the PS2 sales number then, and it was not like that… In their financials the theory was that PS3 and PS2 sales were mixed and reported as PS3 sales… As you said, is illegal to hide sales numbers..

I said it was illegal to provide "false" data. I don't care about console warrior "theories" at the time.

Just give up. Reality is reality, so let them believe whatever crap they want to make up in their heads. It wont change reality. One guy even said PS2 only sold 145m. How he came to that conclusion, I'll never know!

Agreed.

 

[fallingdove]

Nintendo is such an amazing example of brand building. So many of their game sales come down to IP strength. Lots of duds in their roster this year but the titles still sold in the millions. Mind blowing.

 

[LordOcidax]

I said it was illegal to provide "false" data. I don't care about console warrior "theories" at the time.

They were not providing false data, they did PS2+PS3 and reported as PS3 sales, maybe to hide the PS3 situation by that time, but still they reported real Playstation hardware sales number… My question is, where are the PS3 final sales numbers adjustment? Because they have to subtract the PS2 sales…

 

[fallingdove]

No, I am not. Counting PS2s as PS3 sales is not the same as combining the sales into one number. Kaz Hirai made it clear that was what he was doing. He had to. Providing false data to investors is illegal.

Can people stop with the naive / moronic “providing false data to investors is illegal” argument. There are lots of creative accounting methods that meet bare minimum FTC criteria but still obfuscate performance. The primary motivation of a business is to get more money out of people not stand for truth and justice.

 

[Woopah]

Ok, but were is the PS3 adjustment? Why only affected the PS2 number?

The theory is that the PS2 sales were reported as PS3 sales in the financial report.

We got an update on PS3 sales when it crossed 80 million in 2013. Then we got the final update in 2019.

So we don't need an update on PS3 sales, because Sony already did that.

They never reported PS2 sales as PS3 sales. That doesn't make any sense. Which report do you think they did that in?

 

[Woopah]

Can people stop with the naive / moronic “providing false data to investors is illegal” argument. There are lots of creative accounting methods that meet bare minimum FTC criteria but still obfuscate performance. The primary motivation of a business is to get more money out of people not stand for truth and justice.

You can't use creative accounting to pretend a PS2 is a PS3. Doing so would absolutely be false data.

If you say "we sold 16.1 million PlayStation home consoles this year", then you can include PS2 in that.

But if you say "the PS3 has sold over 80 million units" then you can't include PS2 in that.

 

[LordOcidax]

We got an update on PS3 sales when it crossed 80 million in 2013. Then we got the final update in 2019.

So we don't need an update on PS3 sales, because Sony already did that.

They never reported PS2 sales as PS3 sales. That doesn't make any sense.

So, they didn’t report those numbers on any financial? They come up with a final number and done? See, doesn’t make any sense…

 

[Topher]

They were not providing false data, they did PS2+PS3 and reported as PS3 sales, maybe to hide the PS3 situation by that time, but still they reported real Playstation hardware sales number… My question is, where are the PS3 final sales numbers adjustment? Because they have to subtract the PS2 sales…

Wrong. The numbers were not reported as PS3 sales.

 

[LordOcidax]

Wrong. The numbers were not reported as PS3 sales.

So, they hide those sales then??

 

[Topher]

So, they hide those sales then??

They combined the numbers and reported them as combined.

 

[LordOcidax]

They combined the numbers and reported them as combined.

And what name have in the report? “Playstation family” Let me search for those reports…

 

[Topher]

Can people stop with the naive / moronic “providing false data to investors is illegal” argument. There are lots of creative accounting methods that meet bare minimum FTC criteria but still obfuscate performance. The primary motivation of a business is to get more money out of people not stand for truth and justice.

I’m talking about blatantly false data, not creative accounting

 

[tmlDan]

Mario Party Jamboree outsold Veilguard, Outlaws, and FF7 Rebirth combined.

is that hard to do? LOL

 

[fallingdove]

You can't use creative accounting to pretend a PS2 is a PS3. Doing so would absolutely be false data.

If you say "we sold 16.1 million PlayStation home consoles this year", then you can include PS2 in that.

But if you say "the PS3 has sold over 80 million unit" then you can't include PS2 in that.

Sure.

I don’t know if you trying to prove my point, but this is exactly what I am getting at. Data can be framed in lots of ways and still be considered compliant — the framing is more important than the numbers themselves and only the naive take the numbers as absolute truth.

Which is why you see fanboy rebuttals so often include — “This leader couldn’t be lying, it’s illegal to do so…”

 

[Interfectum]

is that hard to do? LOL

Combined and on a single platform damned impressive even considering how soft those games hit.

 

[Fafalada]

Back then, the last public number for PS2 shared

I know - I wasn't disputing the numbers, just pointing out to the user arguing about shipped vs. sold that it's been 11 years since the last PS2 was produced/shipped - so debating if they were mostly all sold is completely moot. Obviously there's no millions of the unit sitting on shelves anywhere.

My question is… If the sales were mixed, did they subtracted those sales to the PS3 due the adjustment? And now the X360 has the lead again?

Sony reported merged numbers since 2008 or thereabouts? (I forget). We don't have any clear split between the two for last 5 years or so - without a final shipped number its all hypothetical. And likewise for 360 - IIRC MS long since stopped reporting that number too?

 

[Woopah]

So, they didn’t report those numbers on any financial? They come up with a final number and done? See, doesn’t make any sense…

This is the timelime:

End of March 2012 - PS3 was at 63.9 million

April 2012 to March 2013 - Sony reports that they sold 16.5 million "computer entertainment systems (PS3/PS2)"

October 2013 - Sony reports PS3 sales crossed 80 million

October 2016 - PS3 gets discontinued

April 2019 - Sony updates their website with the final PS3 sales number

All of that makes sense.

 

[LordOcidax]

I know - I wasn't disputing the numbers, just pointing out to the user arguing about shipped vs. sold that it's been 11 years since the last PS2 was produced/shipped - so debating if they were mostly all sold is completely moot. Obviously there's no millions of the unit sitting on shelves anywhere.


Sony reported merged numbers since 2008 or thereabouts? (I forget). We don't have any clear split between the two for last 5 years or so - without a final shipped number its all hypothetical. And likewise for 360 - IIRC MS long since stopped reporting that number too?

I am checking some financial for that time , they reported as computer entertainment System Hardware PS2/PS3.

 

[Woopah]

Sure.

I don’t know if you trying to prove my point, but this is exactly what I am getting at. Data can be framed in lots of ways and still be considered compliant — the framing is more important than the numbers themselves and only the naive take the numbers as absolute truth.

Which is why you see fanboy rebuttals so often include — “This leader couldn’t be lying, it’s illegal to do so…”

My point is that if someone says "Sony are lying about PS3 sales by including PS2" then the retort of "providing false data to investors is illegal" is completely valid.

 

[Topher]

Sure.

I don’t know if you trying to prove my point, but this is exactly what I am getting at. Data can be framed in lots of ways and still be considered compliant — the framing is more important than the numbers themselves and only the naive take the numbers as absolute truth.

Which is why you see fanboy rebuttals so often include — “This leader couldn’t be lying, it’s illegal to do so…”

That's true, but there is a line that is crossed between creative compliance and "cooking the books". Imagine if Microsoft went fully insane with their "This is an Xbox" ad to report Surface laptops as Xbox console sales. That's pretty close to what we are talking about here.

 

[Mozza]

No, they were not reported as PS3s. Kaz Hirai combined PS2 and PS3 sales numbers early in the PS3 generation to hide the PS3's poor numbers. The final PS3 number was revealed a few years ago. It had previously been 84m and the final number was 87m.



A desperate marketing stunt for a console no longer made? Believe what you want then

It could be exactly like you said.

 

[Topher]

It could be exactly like you said.

It is all going to be moot anyway when Switch takes the record.

 

[Mozza]

This is the timelime:

End of March 2012 - PS3 was at 63.9 million

April 2012 to March 2013 - Sony reports that they sold 16.5 million "computer entertainment systems (PS3/PS2)"

October 2013 - Sony reports PS3 sales crossed 80 million

October 2016 - PS3 gets discontinued

April 2019 - Sony updates their website with the final PS3 sales number

All of that makes sense.

What were they doing counting them individually in peoples homes?

 

[Mozza]

It is all going to be moot anyway when Switch takes the record.

I guess. Who knows perhaps the Switch 2 will beat them all. Then Nintendo will suggest in another twelve years or so the original sold more.... then on and on

 

[tmlDan]

Combined and on a single platform damned impressive even considering how soft those games hit.

not really when its mario adjacent, those sell regardless of quality.

 

[Woopah]

What were they doing counting them individually in peoples homes?

No? Sony knows the sales for their products once they are shipped.

It's like how we got an update to Xbox One sales in 2023. It wasn't because it took a long time to count.

 

[fallingdove]

That's true, but there is a line that is crossed between creative compliance and "cooking the books". Imagine if Microsoft went fully insane with their "This is an Xbox" ad to report Surface laptops as Xbox console sales. That's pretty close to what we are talking about here.

I see no difference between creative compliance and cooking the books and have observed some wacky shit over the course of my career that was eaten up by investors and regulators.

I may have missed it but is there an investor report where Sony said that the PS2 was a PS3? I’ve only seen documents that bundle the two as computer entertainment system hardware. Which is less transparent but not an outright lie.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if what you describe about Microsoft is actually what they are working toward. Misleading investors into thinking that GamePass capable devices are dedicated Xbox hardware. Their entire reporting structure has been moving in that direction for quite some time.

 

[Topher]

I may have missed it but is there an investor report where Sony said that the PS2 was a PS3? I’ve only seen documents that bundle the two as computer entertainment system hardware. Which is less transparent but not an outright lie.

The "theory" stated here was that Sony counted PS2 sales as PS3 sales, but that wasn't the case. The numbers were combined and they clearly stated as combined.

 

[Zacfoldor]

The updated PS2 numbers were clearly an attempt to prevent the Switch from overtaking the PS2, factual or not. It being illegal means what exactly?

However, sadly, it will all be in vein. Switch will win anyway and by a lot. A metric shit ton, and not only can it not play DVDs, it can't even play Youtube.

 

[Topher]

The updated PS2 numbers were clearly an attempt to prevent the Switch from overtaking the PS2, factual or not. It being illegal means what exactly?

There is nothing illegal about updating the PS2 numbers.

 

[Kacho]

There is nothing illegal about updating the PS2 numbers.

Excuse me?

 

[Topher]

Excuse me?

What?

 

[Kacho]

What?

I was just joking at the absurdity of Jim Ryan doing illegal shit.

Hold up. Updating my notes.

Topher is like Drax from GotG. He takes everything literally.

 

[Topher]

I was just joking at the absurdity of Jim Ryan doing illegal shit.

Hold up. Updating my notes.

Topher is like Drax from GotG. He takes everything literally.

I would say that one went over my head, but my reflexes are too fast....

 

[LectureMaster]

I would say that one went over my head, but my reflexes are too fast....

 

[ハトリス]

The number actually produced was more than 160 million. Sony said 160 million so that is the number. If you are going to start doubting sales numbers because of nonsensical shit like retail units then do the same for Nintendo.

I don't know how many consoles Nintendo produced. I only know how many they sold.
I also know how many PS2s Sony produced. And because of the reasons I stated above, this number cannot be the same as the number of sold consoles. Anyone with a brain could understand this, except Sony fans who feel like their honor has been scratched, I don't even mind if Nintendo surpasses the PS2 or not. I loved my PS2 as much as I loved my GameCube. But this ridiculous behavior of Sony and the Sony fans supporting it is just too funny to ignore.

 

[Topher]

this number cannot be the same as the number of sold consoles.

"The number actually produced was more than 160 million."

 

[TheGodfather07]

I don't know how many consoles Nintendo produced. I only know how many they sold.
I also know how many PS2s Sony produced. And because of the reasons I stated above, this number cannot be the same as the number of sold consoles. Anyone with a brain could understand this, except Sony fans who feel like their honor has been scratched, I don't even mind if Nintendo surpasses the PS2 or not. I loved my PS2 as much as I loved my GameCube. But this ridiculous behavior of Sony and the Sony fans supporting it is just too funny to ignore.

I found your favourite game

 

[Mattyp]

I remember Sony wanted Playstation to get back to 10% profit margins. Do you know what Xbox game division's profit margins are?

I would say around 10% as a guess, they don’t rely on loss leading consoles for the bulk of their revenue while only posting a slightly smaller revenue than Sony while only selling 1/4 the consoles. It’s a majority of digital content which typically has much larger margins.

 

[Juja]

I really hope the Switch sells well over 160 million (165+ish) just so people can't even argue about it anymore. Sony gave a definitive number on that last produced PS2, so as long as Nintendo can go above that, then that should be the end of it... Right?

 

[LordOcidax]

I really hope the Switch sells well over 160 million (165+ish) just so people can't even argue about it anymore. Sony gave a definitive number on that last produced PS2, so as long as Nintendo can go above that, then that should be the end of it... Right?

No, they are going to make a PS2 mini.

 

[Scrawnton]

The updated PS2 numbers were clearly an attempt to prevent the Switch from overtaking the PS2, factual or not. It being illegal means what exactly?

However, sadly, it will all be in vein. Switch will win anyway and by a lot. A metric shit ton, and not only can it not play DVDs, it can't even play Youtube.

FWIW, Switch has had an official YouTube app for years.

No, they are going to make a PS2 mini.

Didn't the original BC PS3 systems have actual PS2 hardware in it? Sony can use that to raise the total up to a cool 180m PS2s sold. Get fuckt, Switch.

 

[LordOcidax]

Didn't the original BC PS3 systems have actual PS2 hardware in it? Sony can use that to raise the total up to a cool 180m PS2s sold. Get fuckt, Switch.

Let’s count PS2 emulators downloads too… Zero Chance for the Switch.

 

[Luminoth-4545]

Title - Animal Crossing Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Animal crossing: New Horizons	47.44	NSW	2020
Animal Crossing: New Leaf	13.06	3DS	2012
Animal crossing: Wild World	11.75	NDS	2005
Animal Crossing: City Folk	4.32	Wii	2008
Animal Crossing	2.27	GCN	2001
Total	78.84	All	2001-2020

Title - 2D Super Mario Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Super Mario Bros.	40.24	NES	1985
New Super Mario Bros.	30.80	NDS	2006
New Super Mario Bros. Wii	30.32	Wii	2009
Super Mario World	20.61	SNES	1990
Super Mario Land	18.14	GB	1989
New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe	18.06	NSW	2019
Super Mario Bros. 3	17.28	NES	1988
Super Mario Bros. Wonder	15.51	NSW	2023
New Super Mario Bros. 2	13.42	3DS	2011
Super Mario Land 2	11.18	GB	1992
Super Mario All-Stars	10.55	SNES	1993
Super Mario Maker 2	8.42	NSW	2019
Super Mario Bros. 2	7.46	NES	1986
New Super Mario Bros. U	5.82	Wii U	2012
Super Mario Advance 2	5.69	GBA	2001
Super Mario Advance	5.57	GBA	2001
Super mario Advance 4	5.43	GBA	2003
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island	4.12	SNES	1995
Super Mario Maker	4.02	Wii U	2015
Super Mario Maker	3.79	3DS	2016
Super Mario Advance 3	2.83	GBA	2002
Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels	2.65	NES	1986
Mario Bros.	2.28	NES	1983
Super Mario Bros.	2.27	GBA	2004
Super Mario All-Stars	2.24	Wii	2011
Total	288.70	All	1985-2023

Title - 3D Super Mario Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Super Mario Odyssey	29.04	NSW	2017
Super Mario 3D World + BF	13.47	NSW	2021
Super Mario 3D Land	12.88	3DS	2011
Super Mario Galaxy	12.80	Wii	2007
Super Mario 64	11.91	N64	1996
Super Mario 64 DS	11.06	NDS	2004
Super Mario 3D All-Stars	9.07	NSW	2020
Super Mario Galaxy 2	7.41	Wii	2010
Super Mario Sunshine	5.91	GCN	2002
Super Mario 3D World	5.89	Wii U	2013
Total	119.44	All	1996-2021

Title - Mario Kart Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe	67.35	NSW	2017
Mario Kart Wii	37.38	Wii	2008
Mario Kart DS	23.60	NDS	2005
Mario Kart 7	18.99	3DS	2011
Mario Kart 64	9.87	N64	1996
Super Mario Kart	8.76	SNES	1992
Mario Kart 8	8.46	Wii U	2014
Mario Kart: Double Dash	6.88	GCN	2003
Mario Kart: Super Circuit	5.91	GBA	2001
Mario Kart Live: Home Tour	1.73	NSW	2020
Total	188.93	All	1992-2017

Title - Mario Party Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Super Mario Party	21.10	NSW	2018
Mario Party: Superstars	12.89	NSW	2021
Mario party DS	9.31	NDS	2006
Mario Party 8	8.85	Wii	2008
Super Mario Party: Jamboree	6.17	NSW	2024
Mario Party 9	3.11	Wii	2011
Mario Party: Island Tour	2.95	3DS	2013
Mario Party	2.70	N64	1998
Mario Party 2	2.48	N64	1999
Mario Party 4	2.46	GCN	2002
Mario Party 10	2.27	Wii U	2015
Mario Party 5	2.17	GCN	2003
Mario party 7	2.08	GCN	2005
Mario Party 3	1.91	N64	2000
Mario party 6	1.63	GCN	2004
Total	82.08	All	1998-2024

Title - Mario Sports Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Mario Tennis Aces	4.50	NSW	2018
Mario Strikers: Battle League	2.63	NSW	2022
Mario Strikers Charged	2.60	Wii	2007
Mario Golf: Super Rush	2.48	NSW	2021
Mario Super Sluggers	2.32	Wii	2008
Mario Tennis 64	2.32	N64	2000
Mario Hoops 3-on-3	2.03	NDS	2006
Mario Sports Mix	1.98	Wii	2010
Mario Power Tennis New Play	1.79	Wii	2009
Super Mario Strikers	1.60	GCN	2005
Mario Tennis Open	1.58	3DS	2012
Mario Golf 64	1.47	N64	1999
Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour	1.27	GCN	2003
Mario Power Tennis	1.16	GCN	2004
Mario Superstar Baseball	1.05	GCN	2005
Total	30.78	All	1999-2022

Title - Legend of Zelda Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Breath of the Wild	32.62	NSW	2017
Tears of the Kingdom	21.55	NSW	2023
Ocarina of Time	7.60	N64	1998
Twilight Princess	7.50	Wii	2006
Link's Awakening	6.63	NSW	2019
Legend of Zelda	6.51	NES	1986
Ocarina of Time 3D	6.44	3DS	2011
Link's Crossbow Training	5.79	Wii	2007
Phantom Hourglass	4.76	NDS	2007
A Link to the Past	4.61	SNES	1991
The Wind Waker	4.43	GCN	2002
Zelda II: Adventure of Link	4.38	NES	1987
A Link Between World's	4.26	3DS	2013
Skyward Sword HD	4.15	NSW	2021
Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity	4.00	NSW	2020
Oracle of Seasons and Ages	3.99	GBC	2001
Echoes of Wisdom	3.91	NSW	2024
Link's Awakening	3.83	GB	1993
Skyward Sword	3.67	Wii	2011
Majora's Mask 3D	3.46	3DS	2015
Majora's Mask	3.36	N64	2000
Spirit Tracks	2.96	NDS	2009
A Link to the Past + Four Swords	2.82	GBA	2002
The Wind Waker HD	2.37	Wii U	2013
Link's Awakening DX	2.22	GBC	1998
The Minish Cap	1.76	GBA	2004
Breath of the Wild	1.70	Wii U	2017
Twilight Princess	1.43	GCN	2006
Tri Force Heroes	1.36	3DS	2015
Twilight Princess HD	1.17	Wii U	2016
Hyrule Warriors	1.00	Wii U	2014
Total	166.21	All	1986-2024

Title - Super Smash Bros. Series	Units sold (in millions)	Platform	Released
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate	35.88	NSW	2018
Super Smash Bros. Brawl	13.32	Wii	2008
Super Smash Bros. For 3DS	9.65	3DS	2014
Super Smash bros. Melee	7.41	GCN	2001
Super Smash Bros.	5.55	N64	1999
Super Smash Bros. For Wii U	5.38	Wii U	2014
Total	77.19	All	1999-2018