Physiognomonics
Member
Are we sure? Kepler compares it to Polaris and RDNA1! which are respectively PS4 Pro and PS5 baseline GPUs.
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Rumor: PS5 Pro Codenamed "Trinity" targeting Late 2024 (some alleged specs leaked)
- Thread starter MisterXDTV
- Start date
- Rumor Platform
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Microsoft maybe, not so much sony. There are different levels of chip customization. MS route builds something based on a specific architecture, but, but heavily customizes the layout. So they could add more CUs to an array, add more memory buses...etc. Sony's approach is more invasive, while not really changing the layout at all. Sony is more likely to change something in a CU,or the chip logic, or ad more AI stuff or RT stuff, but the overall layout of the chip would look very similar to something already on or coming to shelves. Eg, the CU in the PS4pro was bigger than the normal Polaris CUs.
Thisgen, there isn't really any AMD GPU that has a layout similar to the XSX. However, the 6700 (non-XT), looks identical in every way to the PS5 GPU.
The PS5/XSX APUs were finazed in 2019. Albeit getting things that ended up being in RDNA2. But having a front end that was pretty much RDNA1.
That's kind how it goes. The PS5pro, would have an architectural frontend of RDNA3 while having features that are in RDNA4. Hence, it's going to be an RDNA3.5 GPU. If they plan on releasing the PS5pro next year, by now,it should be pretty much be finalized and currently going through all manner of tests. They can add some stuff to it as more intertions of the APU would be taped out between now and say next year March, but the core design and/or layout of the chip would be finalized by now.
Similar but not the same. Besides, that tends to happen when there is a massive shit in GPU architecture. Or sub-architecture. As is the case now. There is going to be a big difference between RDNA3 and RDNA 4 (or navi 3/4). My money is that that's going to be on AI cores and RT cores.
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MisterXDTV
Member
But it's not an absolute comparison, it's all relative
Look at the generation leap of 7700XT vs 6700XT
Navi 22 = 40 CUs
Navi 32 = 60 CUs
Navi 42 ? = 80-90 CUs ?
Won't come out until 2025 IMO
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Physiognomonics
Member
Mr.Phoenix
Member
You conveniently left out Navi 12?
Navi 12 = 40CU
Navi 22 = 40CU (added RT cores)
Navi 32 = 60CU (added 2ndgen RT cores, dabbled in AI and dul issue)
Navi 42 = 60CU? (proper RT cores 3rd gen, proper AI cores, proper dual issue...etc.
MisterXDTV
Member
Yeah, just like the 7800XT/7700XT was supposed to come a year ago and they haven't launched yet....
I'll believe it when I see it....
I'm betting 2025 for Navi 42 cards
Loxus
Member
Both PS5 and XBSX released the same year as RDNA2.
They still resemble RDNA1 but is still based on RDNA2.
Understanding that, PS5 Pro can resemble RDNA3 but is based on RDNA4.
Physiognomonics
Member
Define "resemble RDNA3". We don't know yet what is RNDA4 except for rumored new RT hardware.Both PS5 and XBSX released the same year as RDNA2.
They still resemble RDNA1 but is still based on RDNA2.
Understanding that, PS5 Pro can resemble RDNA3 but is based on RDNA4.
Loxus
Member
RDNA4 is rumored to be chiplets.
You think PS5 Pro is going to be a chiplet design?
SenkiDala
Member
I dunno if it has been discussed but do you think that is possible that Sony would release a PS5 Pro but MS wouldn't release a XSX Pro ? That would be weird no ? I mean MS is already losing the generation (but it was expected) but at least they can compete with the PS5 in terms of power, and "pretty games", if there is a PS5 Pro but no XSX Pro the advantage that would have Sony would be MASSIVE.
I can't see MS not preparing an XSX+ despite what said Spencer recently.
I can't see MS not preparing an XSX+ despite what said Spencer recently.
Irobot82
Member
RDNA4 is rumored to be chiplets.
You think PS5 Pro is going to be a chiplet design?
That's not correct. The large RDNA 41 was based on chiplets, but it was cancelled. The two remaining RDNA 4X chips are monolithic. Not even using the cache chiplets that RDNA 3 used.
Loxus
Member
Source?
Irobot82
Member
The same rumor mill that is showing Navi 41 was chiplet.
41 was a crazy chiplet design.
42 and 43 were monolithic.
Rumor is 41 was cancelled to put more effort into 51 which will supposedly be the big one where the GCDs are chiplets.
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Loxus
Member
Moore's Law talking about Navi 43 and 44 being monolithic, which is midrange.
High-end is what the consoles are.
PS5 is based on RDNA2 high-end, Navi22.
PS5 Pro on RDNA3 high-end, would be Navi32.
On RDNA4 high-end, it would be Navi42.
He never called Navi42 monolithic.
Gotta come better than that.
Perrott
Member
I get the feeling that they're walking away from the power fight for the time being.
Last time I checked, the Xbox Series consoles were tracking behind all previous Xbox generations in sales, and with more and more people going the PC route (still benefitial to them), it doesn't make any sense to throw a third SKU that's going to have abysmal adoption rates into the market. Having the, on paper, most powerful console in the world hasn't really done anything for them with both the One X and the Series X, so why keep trying?
Once the next generation arrives, we'll see if they're still interested in putting together a contender for a piece of the high-end console market pie, or if they instead choose to go up against the successors to the Switch and Steam Deck, with a relatively powerful (Series X-ish) portable Windows/Xbox device with cloud gaming capabilities and a dock.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
MS won't come out and say it, but the real reason they are not making a Pro is because they already have two consoles on the market. An XSX pro would make that 3. They are already getting a lot of heat on their XSS misstep. Adin a third one into the mix won't be in their best interest.
Oh... and officially, Xbox released their midgen refresh or Pro console on launch day. At least that's what they say, for all the mental gymnastics that is worth.
twilo99
Member
There is nothing high-end about the consoles when it comes to GPU.
My bet is that MS will release a new device in 2026 or 2027 and call it next-gen. Although I doubt it will be a next-gen leap. It will be more like a pro version.
Physiognomonics
Member
If I read Kepler hints correction that has being scrapted and the first RDNA4 that is going to be released is not chiplet and is a rather small GPU like the first Polaris (36CUs) and RDNA1 (40CUs). The first RDNA4 being 64CUs would fit the bill.RDNA4 is rumored to be chiplets.
You think PS5 Pro is going to be a chiplet design?
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SenkiDala
Member
You also forgot the OG Xbox that was like x2 more powerful than the PS2 and it didn't work as well, even though for a first console they sold more than the Nintendo console of that time (GameCube) which is still impressive.
I mean I hear what you say (why keep trying) but because they keep saying that the Cloud isn't the only future, PC gaming isn't the only future and Consoles same, the gaming division of MS is called "Xbox", "Xbox Game Studios". And I don't see them spending 70bil for ABK to step away from the console market. They could become "just" a publisher then, and they would become the biggest publisher even instantly, but I dunno...
Their fans comes from consoles, play their games on consoles (even though now they're releasing on Steam it is changing on PC), so that would be dumb. Their fans expect everything on consoles (I don't see any MS fan who's exclusively playing their games on PC, it must exists but it's not that significant).
And he didn't say that they won't make any Pro version they said "for now we don't see the point of a Pro consoles because the actual consoles aren't used to their full power" which is also true.
I remember Miyamoto at an E3 saying "no we don't plan to make any other version of the 3DS" and 2 weeks later Nintendo announcing the 3DS XL.
In fact now they do have 3 SKUs, the XSS 1to (black) is releasing very soon. But yes I see your point. And I heard him saying that yes the XSX is the Pro version, which is "true" for now, if you declare "the XSS is our new next gen console" then yes the XSX is automatically the Pro.
We've seen the 360 Core, Premium, Elite, Slim, Super slim (360E)... I wouldn't ge surprised if they make a Pro I don't see them accepting being THAT MUCH behind playstation in terms of power. The last time they were "a bit" behind the PS (One vs PS4) it didn't do them any good, and they lost a lot of the credibility they earned on the 360 era. They corrected it with the One X, and I don't think they ever want to be anything but the "most powerful console" anymore. Also Xbox Fans are VERY into this "TF, power, frame rate, lalalala, RT, RDNA" fight, so I don't think they would follow that long if the PS5 Pro releases and MS gives nothing to compete with it within the next year.
That is also possible... They could in fact go into a "fractured generational fight", I dunno how to say in English... Like instead of releasing consoles at the same time than the opponent always (PS4 vs One / PS5 vs XSX) they could let Sony have 1 year ahead, (PS5 Pro 2024 / XSX+ 2025) in fact it is what they've done with the One X. But the power advantage that might had the XOX didn't help them that much... But now with more studios, more exclusives releasing (quality exclusives) it could be appealing for gamers who don't own a Xbox. Recently we, surprisingly I must admit, are seeing a huge boost in XSX sales, I see a lot of "PS 4EVER" warriors getting an XSX for Starfield so... Well as usual content is king.
Thanks for your answers, personally I don't see MS letting the "most powerful" advantage to Sony that long, it is too important for their image and since the existence of the 1st Xbox, their goal has always been to bring the most powerful console to gamers, I doubt they'll stop, at least until Sony is "out" of the market (and I doubt it'll ever happen).
Mr.Phoenix
Member
That's all one console though. Just with different HDDs and different chassis sizes. Same with the XSS 1TB. It's the same thing with the XSS just with a different-sized SSD. When we say different skus with regard to pro consoles, we mean that devs would have to make two different versions of their game for the platform.
And I don't get the whole behind power, not do them any good and correcting it with this and that nonsense. What good has them having the most powerful console done them this gen? What good did the One X do for them last gen? Did it make them sell more consoles? Win some forum fan war? What is it? I hope MS they don't make decisions based on winning forum wars.
MisterXDTV
Member
It's possible but if the leak is true they won't make cards based off Navi 41....
So this means Navi 42 becomes the top chip for RDNA4
Can they afford to make it with a CU count much lower than Navi 31???
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Of course, they can...they did the exact same thing with RDNA1 (5700). Technically, the 5700, a 40CU GPU, was actually called Navi 10.
Loxus
Member
Since your using Kepler who as far as I know, never stated midrange Navi43 would have 64 CUs.
Also said this.
Which proves my point.
The die would look like RDNA3, even if Sony calls the chip RDNA4 similarly to the PS5.
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THE:MILKMAN
Member
My own guess
Loxus
is PS5 Pro will stick with RDNA2 as the "base" and backport all the RDNA3/4 goodies Cerny cherry-picks from the roadmap. Just like PS4 Pro.
For me there is no reason for Sony to go any further for a mid-gen bump. They'll want a big leap for PS6 in ~2028 which they won't get if they go Zen4 +RDNA4 for PS5 Pro.
Loxus
is PS5 Pro will stick with RDNA2 as the "base" and backport all the RDNA3/4 goodies Cerny cherry-picks from the roadmap. Just like PS4 Pro.For me there is no reason for Sony to go any further for a mid-gen bump. They'll want a big leap for PS6 in ~2028 which they won't get if they go Zen4 +RDNA4 for PS5 Pro.
foamdino
Member
I think you're correct, the layout of the APU will be something that has been proven and is well tested/validated, but the functional blocks themselves will probably be including some Sony specific tweaks (which will inevitably make they're way into future iterations of RDNA).
Physiognomonics
Member
If it has RDNA4 new RT block then it will be mostly RDNA4 tech the way PS5 is primarily RDNA2 tech. But I guess this is all semantic at this point. But the layout he hinted (2SA, 7/8 7/8) is definitely not a RDNA3 layout.
Can we at least agree that if PS5 layout is this one (and the same as 8700 or whatever the name of the first RDNA4 GPU) then PS5 could then be called RDNA4 even by you?
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
On the surface, RDNA3 looks pretty much identical to RDNA2. The only superficial difference between the two is actually that RDNA3 is split into an MCD and GCD, MCM chip layout. But if you look at the GCD, it looks very similar in layout to RDNA2.My own guess
For me there is no reason for Sony to go any further for a mid-gen bump. They'll want a big leap for PS6 in ~2028 which they won't get if they go Zen4 +RDNA4 for PS5 Pro.
I expect the PS5pro to be no different, It will look like RDNA3 GCD but have AI, RT, Dual Issue...etc components from RDNA4.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
...Didn't know RDNA3 was basically rebadged RDNA2. I assumed it was a major upgrade/change so this now makes more sense.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
As long as they are called RDNA.. then they would always have more similarities than less. As the suffix in the name goes up, we just have better iterations of certain components and or the addition of new stuff. But the architectural layout would be for the most part...the same.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Yeah just had a quick look at a comparison and the biggest change actually is the move from monolithic to chiplet design which we know consoles aren't adopting any time soon if ever.
Zuzu
Member
I first saw this in the Digital Foundry Immortals of Aveum thread (posted by Crispy Gamer on pg 8). Check out this quote from an interview by Eurogamer done on 28th August with some of the developers of Immortals of Aveum:
"What about specific resolution targets on consoles - is it FSR 2 on ultra performance targeting 4K, or is it a higher setting?
Mark Maratea: On consoles only, it does an adaptive upscale - so we look at what you connected from a monitor/TV standpoint... and there's a slot in the logic that says if a PS5 Pro comes out, it'll actually upscale to different quality levels - it'll be FSR 2 quality rather than standard FSR 2 performance."
I think this is further evidence that a PS5 Pro is coming. The developer doesn't outright confirm it but the fact that they're making preparations in their game code for the possibility of a PS5 Pro possibly means they probably have a strong hunch or even insider knowledge that this console is on the way imo.
Here's a link to the full interview: https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-immortals-of-aveum-tech-interview
"What about specific resolution targets on consoles - is it FSR 2 on ultra performance targeting 4K, or is it a higher setting?
Mark Maratea: On consoles only, it does an adaptive upscale - so we look at what you connected from a monitor/TV standpoint... and there's a slot in the logic that says if a PS5 Pro comes out, it'll actually upscale to different quality levels - it'll be FSR 2 quality rather than standard FSR 2 performance."
I think this is further evidence that a PS5 Pro is coming. The developer doesn't outright confirm it but the fact that they're making preparations in their game code for the possibility of a PS5 Pro possibly means they probably have a strong hunch or even insider knowledge that this console is on the way imo.
Here's a link to the full interview: https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-immortals-of-aveum-tech-interview
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Great catch!
Zuzu
Member
Thanks! Credit goes to Crispy Gamer for posting it first in the other thread!
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Great find. The part I bolded, it leans into what I was saying about the PS5pro really being a 1440p reconstructed (in this case FSR2 quality rather than ultra-performance) to 2160p machine.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't see why or how they won't use it. People made the reference to the PS4pro using Jaguar but that was because Sony and MS were basically stuck with that thing.
Zen4c is available, takes up less die space, draws less power, and has a higher IPC, so they can even keep it at the same PS5 Zen 2 clock and it would still perform better...etc. And architecturally, its in the same CPU family. Socompatibiity would not be an issue. I mean we have Zen 4 popping up in these new handhelds, laptops, and mini PCs...
I just can't see them not using it. But if they don't,I would be really interested in hearing the reason why.
nosoynadie22
Member
Can Sony recreate the base PS5 in Zen4c and RDNA4 to make a smaller, more power efficient chip for a "Slim" or "Super Slim" PS5?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Extremely unlikely. Not that its impossible, it's just wasteful and an unnecessary complication. As it stands, going from the PS5 to PS5s or even PS5ss, consists of nothing more than a node shrink. That translates to less power draw required to hit the same clocj targets and less heat generated as a result in doing that. The only modification sony would have to do is some small power profile tweaking to have performance be identical to the OG PS5.
If you go with Zen4 instead, that completely changes everything. First off, the IPC is different, so you can't even have it running at the same clock. Which would be a big problem for patch-free compatibility. This is why the PS4pro/PS5 had modes that had their APU matching PS4 clocks. On the same sub-architecture, you can mostly get away with a CPU/GPU up clock, but when the subarch is different... things can get dicey. Taping out the APu is another complication cause even though it's the same general architecture of CPU, it has a different sub-architecture, which means more work needs to go into the exact same thing.
If they can make a Pro using newer Zen/RDNA IP and have it run PS5 software out-of-the-box they can certainly create a "PS5 Plus" using the same IP blocks. As an added bonus you'd get all the HW features the PS5 GPU is lacking due to its mostly RDNA1 legacy (MLops, VRS, AV1 video decoding etc).
It really comes down to cost per transistor. It's not clear that die shrinks actually meaningfully reduce cost anymore as you pay increasingly more per wafers.
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nosoynadie22
Member
Yes..I supposed it would be an unnecessary complication.
I would like to see a PS5 that is similar in size to a PS3 Super slim, I wonder if that fantasy could come true
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Well...
That has an 8C/16thread + 12CU RDNA3 GPU that can clock up to 3Ghz for over 4.6TF in something that's about the size of an external 3.5-inch HDD.
So anything is possible. Is it necessary? Or even worth it? Now that's a different matter.
Think of it this way... if Sony can only get access to say 1000 1.5nm wafers/month. Do you really think they want to be wasting those precious afers making a super slim PS5 chip instead of making their new PS6 chip?
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Imtjnotu
Member
Whats the thermals on this thoWell...
That has an 8C/16thread + 12CU RDNA3 GPU that can clock up to 3Ghz for over 4.6TF in something that's about the size of an external 3.5-inch HDD.
So anything is possible. Is it necessary? Or even worth it? Now that's a different matter.
Think of it this way... if Sony can only get access to say 1000 1.5nm wafers/month. Do you really think they want to be wasting those precious afers making a super slim PS5 chip instead of making their new PS6 chip?
nosoynadie22
Member
I thought something smaller than the original PS3 would be good enough and trying to make a machine smaller than that would be an unnecessary effort, I was just fantasizing what-if scenarios.Well...
That has an 8C/16thread + 12CU RDNA3 GPU that can clock up to 3Ghz for over 4.6TF in something that's about the size of an external 3.5-inch HDD.
So anything is possible. Is it necessary? Or even worth it? Now that's a different matter.
Think of it this way... if Sony can only get access to say 1000 1.5nm wafers/month. Do you really think they want to be wasting those precious afers making a super slim PS5 chip instead of making their new PS6 chip?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
That APU peaks at 100W. In those Mini PCs its usually restricted to 65-80W. So thermals, well...
I am with you on that, just pointing out that with the costs of more advanced nodes these days, wafer allotment is now a very valuable commodity. There could currently be a PS4pro that is as small as that Mini PC I posted, but doing so would be at the expense of using up precious wafers that could have gone to making a PS5s or PS5pro.
In the good ol PS1/2/3 days... the only people that were really clamoring for chips were console and PC OEMs. Now, you have consoles, laptops, PCs, mini PC, smart TVs, smartphones...etc
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Wooxsvan
Member
maybe part of the reason Microsoft is waiting...
MisterXDTV
Member
MS is waiting because nobody cares about their consoles anymore...
There's nothing to wait for...
Mr.Phoenix
Member
MS did the stupid thing, of starting the gen with two different skus. Not so much that there were two, but that there were two vastly different versions. The only way that gamble would have worked was if the XSS became the lead platform for development. But MS should have known that was impossible because the PS5 exists. So that means the PS5 becomes the lead dev platform, and devs now have the arduous task of down porting to the XSS as opposed to the easier task of up porting from it to the XSX and PS5 that MS was hoping for.
That's already giving MS all manner of headaches now... imagine them introducing a third version to that mix.
