Northeastmonk
Gold Member
that’s what happens when you live and die by your shareholders. You push all your talent out the window.
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Shuihei Yoshida says that if he was still in charge of PS first party he would have tried to resist the PS live-service push
- Thread starter ArtHands
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Grizzled Ghost
Member
It takes a lot of balls to come out and say "I probably wouldn't have done that" after the whole experiment has crashed and burned.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol I thought Phil Spencer fanboys were bad, but Herman's got a defense force too?
I always thought Sony did Shu dirty. there was zero reason to replace him after he got them gotys in 2013, 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2020. But Herman probably came in with a snake oil salesman pitch, and fooled everyone into giving him the keys to arguably the best first party studio in playstation history. He took what Shu had built over decades and ruined it all in a few years.
I was called chicken little and mocked at every turn for years by these same Herman defenders. Year after year, no show after no show. Nothing to show at E3. Nothing to show at Gamecom. State of plays over showcases. I was like wtf are these studios doing under Herman? Now we find out that he was having Bend and Bluepoint make GaaS games that were just cancelled. 4 years of development lost. Almost 25-30 years in cumulative development across the 6-10 studios who have seen their gaas projects cancelled over the last few years. All Over one man's retarded vision. And people still stan for him. Garbage.
I always thought Sony did Shu dirty. there was zero reason to replace him after he got them gotys in 2013, 2016, 2018, 2019 and 2020. But Herman probably came in with a snake oil salesman pitch, and fooled everyone into giving him the keys to arguably the best first party studio in playstation history. He took what Shu had built over decades and ruined it all in a few years.
I was called chicken little and mocked at every turn for years by these same Herman defenders. Year after year, no show after no show. Nothing to show at E3. Nothing to show at Gamecom. State of plays over showcases. I was like wtf are these studios doing under Herman? Now we find out that he was having Bend and Bluepoint make GaaS games that were just cancelled. 4 years of development lost. Almost 25-30 years in cumulative development across the 6-10 studios who have seen their gaas projects cancelled over the last few years. All Over one man's retarded vision. And people still stan for him. Garbage.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
IIRC, it was David Jaffe and Barlog recounting stories of how when Shu was coming to play a game, everyone at the studio would tense up and work overtime to fix the bugs and make sure the game demo'd well. He would sit down and actually play the build and then storm out if he didnt like it. The devs knew they had to deliver or he would fuck em.
I think about this because there is no way Shu wouldve taken 4 fucking years to shut down tlou factions, bend's gaas game, bluepoint's gaas game, or allowed Concord to go past the design stage.
The man was not without his faults. He hated demon souls probably because it was janky as fuck and he couldnt see its potential back then, but unlike others, he immediately realized his mistake and signed Myazaki to do Bloodborne for PS5. Gave him access to Sony japan too. Then came full circle when he hand picked BP to remake Demon Souls. Thats a true leader. That;s a man who knows he fucked up even though he did let From release the game instead of cancelling it, even though, 2009 was the year sony launched KZ2, infamous, and uncharted 2. and won gotys for Uncharted 2. He couldve just said hey, i did alright but no, he went back and made amends with Myazaki immediately.
I think about this because there is no way Shu wouldve taken 4 fucking years to shut down tlou factions, bend's gaas game, bluepoint's gaas game, or allowed Concord to go past the design stage.
The man was not without his faults. He hated demon souls probably because it was janky as fuck and he couldnt see its potential back then, but unlike others, he immediately realized his mistake and signed Myazaki to do Bloodborne for PS5. Gave him access to Sony japan too. Then came full circle when he hand picked BP to remake Demon Souls. Thats a true leader. That;s a man who knows he fucked up even though he did let From release the game instead of cancelling it, even though, 2009 was the year sony launched KZ2, infamous, and uncharted 2. and won gotys for Uncharted 2. He couldve just said hey, i did alright but no, he went back and made amends with Myazaki immediately.
nial
Gold Member
Duh.
lughnasadh123
Member
Done half-decently for a clone on a game plodding along in a dead genre? There's something to be said there. It's exactly what Sony wanted Concord to be without the things that made MR successful.
vivftp
Member
I was addressing the anti-live service crowd and I still do. Todays news doesn't change a thing for me. Sony has existing live service games that I play (Destiny 2, Helldivers 2, GT7) and have multiple upcoming live service games that interest me (Marathon, Horizon Online, Horizon MMORPG, maybe Fairgame$ too).
Keep going with the live service push Sony!
I was saying nothing's changed. Sony started this push with a high amount of games because they'd not stupid. They know not every game that gets proposed will get greenlit. Not every game that gets greenlit and begins pre-production makes it to full production. Not every game that makes it to full production ships. And not every game that ships succeeds. They played the numbers game with this strategy and they're still playing the numbers game. Nothing's changed.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
it's tough to feel optimistic about PlayStation with guys like Hulst in charge instead of this.
Nobody is perfect but it is about setting a tone and vision and at this point Sony has invested billions in this quixotic quest to make live service shit.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
Sony said that 12 live service games would be *released* by the end of 2025. And they didn't say this in like 2015 or something, they said it in 2022.
Then they revised it down to six, because so many canceled and Concord.
Now it is what, maybe 3? This is not going well.
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vivftp
Member
We don't know how many might get released before the end of next FY. Marathon and Horizon Online are good candidates to release. Fairgame$ is a possibility too.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Sony's greatest strength in games is SP narratives. Ya, some of their games might have a MP mode and they got baseball and GT forever which can be heavily MP focused for some gamers.
But their golden goose are AAA SP games.
Problem is, they got blinded by all the third party companies bragging about GAAS games raking in billions in mtx fees so they couldnt resist but jump head first into shotgunning a ton of them at once including buying up studios with nothing but napkin math. Traditionally, they'd partner up with a studio and then buy them out years later. But instead they peeled out the wallet. They could had just sat back, focus on more SP games and rake in 30% cuts. But they wanted to be a GAAS heavy company with tons of GAAS making 100% of the cut.
They even said long time ago all they need is one successful game to carry the rest. That's true if it's a giant success like a annualized COD or FIFA, or ongoing Minecraft or Fortnite. But there is no way H2's success and Bungie's drop in financials and brand value would compensate all the cancelled games and shuttered studios. Sony paid $3.6B for Bungie and they immediately tanked. And $1B+ was earmarked for retention payouts which isnt something that is real asset value. Money is gone.
But their golden goose are AAA SP games.
Problem is, they got blinded by all the third party companies bragging about GAAS games raking in billions in mtx fees so they couldnt resist but jump head first into shotgunning a ton of them at once including buying up studios with nothing but napkin math. Traditionally, they'd partner up with a studio and then buy them out years later. But instead they peeled out the wallet. They could had just sat back, focus on more SP games and rake in 30% cuts. But they wanted to be a GAAS heavy company with tons of GAAS making 100% of the cut.
They even said long time ago all they need is one successful game to carry the rest. That's true if it's a giant success like a annualized COD or FIFA, or ongoing Minecraft or Fortnite. But there is no way H2's success and Bungie's drop in financials and brand value would compensate all the cancelled games and shuttered studios. Sony paid $3.6B for Bungie and they immediately tanked. And $1B+ was earmarked for retention payouts which isnt something that is real asset value. Money is gone.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
yes, like I said, maybe 3. Point is that they had to axe 75% of them before release, oh not 75% because they brought one to market and had to shut it down a few weeks later in probably the biggest flop in gaming history.
yea, at some point even a game like Helldivers 2 isn't enough to cover for all thsi failure. It's popular, it sold well, it's still very popular, but it's not Counterstrike.
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vivftp
Member
Shit happens, that doesn't mean they should tuck their tail between their legs and go sob in the corner. They carry on.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Usually, it's a bad idea to continue to double down on a losing strategy.
I mean, Concord was a game they felt was good enough to take to market. They really thought putting a remake studio on God of War live service was a good idea. At some point it's tough to ignore the fact that they don't seem to be very good at this and Helldivers 2 is an exception.
peish
Member
Joke is just japanese way of politely expressing his feelings. He is still a voice for playstation, he doesn’t want to directly throw his friends under the bus
This kinda tie back to our speculation of a power move by ps euro boys. Herman jimbo done the japanese teams dirty
vivftp
Member
I do not presume to know the series of events that lead to Bluepoint working on a God of War live service game. I do not presume to know what the pitch was that caused it to be greenlit.
They're a talented bunch of folks and they probably would've had support from Santa Monica Studios to help guide them.
What I do think is a safe assumption is that Bluepoint are the ones who made the call to pursue that game since that's been the case with every other live service game that we have any data on for the SIE live service strategy. The studio charts their course and Sony provides the time, money and resources. If it didn't work out then it didn't work out. Games get cancelled all the time, whether they're single player or live service. They'll move on.
Yeah, I'm not a mind reader and I'm not going to read too much into that joke.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
The problem Sony had with their PS3 shooter success was they made too many of them. There were a million IPs and the quality was hit and miss. At that time, pretty much every game maker who wanted to make shooters focused on 1 or 2 IPs. MS had Gears and Halo, Activision had I think just COD(?), EA had BF and MoH. Sony had about 10..... Resistance, KZ, MAG, Starhawk/Warhawk, SOCOM, Haze, those 2-3 big battle PC games Dust 451 or whatever. The gamer base is spread too thin.
But then for PS4, they made KZ Shadowfall and after big sales at launch the game fizzled out as the gamers didnt care.... supposedly the game looked great but the online was boring But PS gamers do enjoy COD like everyone else. And in recent times, Fortnite and Helldivers 2 too. So MP gaming is loved.
I think Shu is trying to deflect the studios didnt make good MP games.
And the part about limited to one platform makes no sense because every other platform has success with walled off MP games. Ninty has MK/Smash, MS has Halo/Gears (at least back then they were really successful), PC has a million PC only MP games. So for a platform like Sony with tons of gamers and cant support a PS only MP game makes no sense.
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diffusionx
Gold Member
what a weird response to this continued string of failures
"durr lots of stuff fails"
yea and the response is to evaluate your business so it doesn't keep happening. Nobody is proposing Sony close up shop. But maybe it's time to rethink this strategy that has practically resulted in a lost generation for your first party studios and making totally baffling decisions. Bluepoint on GOW live service is totally retarded, and no, Bluepoint does not have total autonomy on what game to make, Sony controls the purse strings and production and the bottom line is that they started working on a GOW live service because Sony wanted them to do a live service because that was the strategy.
poodaddy
Member
Man I empathize with this so much.
vivftp
Member
Sony gave them a ton of money to start up an initiative. Sony aren't idiots, they know that it's incredibly hard and that successes will be few and far between, they still felt it was worth it. To that end they started with a dozen projects in mind to give themselves the best possible shot at finding those successes. I really don't find it that difficult a concept to understand. Building something like this, on this sort of scale is incredibly hard, so why not hedge their bet by going with a large number of initial projects and let nature take its course?
Again, with each instance that we're aware of, the studio chose their project. That's the case with Guerrilla (Horizon Online), Naughty Dog (TLOU Online), London Studios and their fantasy game. Bend asked to be taken off of Uncharted and work on their own IP back in 2021 according to Jasons reporting, the studio wanted to do that. Haven presented 3 game concepts to Sony initially and Sony wanted to greenlight all 3, but Haven decided to start with 1 project as it was their first.
The way I view it is that you don't achieve greatness without taking risks. It might not always work out, but when it does it can be a great thing. Sony is flush with cash and SIE is more profitable now than they ever have been. This is an investment they're making to expand their portfolio for the future. It's their money to burn when it fails and it's their money to rake in when it succeeds.
SkylineRKR
Member
Shu is an OG. He doesn't like the current push but rather the traditional stuff. I am confident he wouldn't let Concord pass. And I firmly believe his old school ways is what got him sidelined. All the better all these projects bomb or get cancelled now.
And yes, it says a lot that he sucked up his pride, and praised Demon's Souls after the finished build and actually became a fanboy. He was frank about the whole ordeal. And really, Demon's Souls did look like a janky mess, it simply caught the audience by surprise. No one predicted a success. A worse alpha build of this game, I would likely pass off a a dud too. It was the word of mouth post release that put gamers on notice that this game was actually fucking good.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Is that a one-off story? Or are there stories of Shu being like this all the time?
He seems like the nicest most chill gaming exec ever. Of course, that's the way he at least acts in front of a camera.
Bernardougf
Member
Oh no... is retarded
Physiognomonics
Member
Shocking. Stupid decisions leading to mass failure. In a normal company they would fire everybody in charge. Fairgames will be the next Concord style failure.
Seomel
Member
He retired, its just many years ago he was moved to oversee indies and to bring in partners, like hes main reason for example Stellar Blade was made as it is today.
RodriGames40
Member
2020 really is starting to feel like the peak of contemporary gaming, we have been downhill hard ever since.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
Just try to put yourself in his shoes: Mr. Shu is a Japanese man who has contributed to making Playstation THE mainstream videogames brand for +20 years. One day, the company decided to move headquarters to California because they wanted to become Westernized, make games like movies, and mingle with the Hollywood "elite class". So, 3 years later they got rid of him and appoint Phil Spencer 2.0 as a replacement. Mr Shu is demoted and appointed as a seeker of new talent. Let's remember that the new Sony doesn't give two fucks about indies, they are in it for Hollywoodesque blockbusters. This means that internally Yoshida's work is little more than a joke.
Instead of giving them the finger, Mr Shu takes his job seriously. He goes to China and talks to some dudes called Mihoyo, among others. Soon, Playstation will become relevant in China and Korea and help new studios grow. With Mihoyo comes a money printer called Genshin Impact. Zero risk for Sony, billion revenue in the excel sheets.
Meanwhile, Jim Ryan, assisted by the future emperor Hulst, shuts down Japan Studio and burns all the money imaginable in 12 fucking GaaS, because "it's what kids want Today". Flash-forward to 2025, 8 studios have shut down under his tenure, and Mr. Shu is out of Sony.
Imagine how this man feels. He must be fuming, but he's too polite and loves the brand too much. Much more than the dumb fucks that threw him out, for sure.
Instead of giving them the finger, Mr Shu takes his job seriously. He goes to China and talks to some dudes called Mihoyo, among others. Soon, Playstation will become relevant in China and Korea and help new studios grow. With Mihoyo comes a money printer called Genshin Impact. Zero risk for Sony, billion revenue in the excel sheets.
Meanwhile, Jim Ryan, assisted by the future emperor Hulst, shuts down Japan Studio and burns all the money imaginable in 12 fucking GaaS, because "it's what kids want Today". Flash-forward to 2025, 8 studios have shut down under his tenure, and Mr. Shu is out of Sony.
Imagine how this man feels. He must be fuming, but he's too polite and loves the brand too much. Much more than the dumb fucks that threw him out, for sure.
Hudo
Member
Sounds like Hermen/Sony retired Yoshida.
I think Shu was given a last hoorah year with Stellar Blade and Rise of the Ronin and they didn't perform as well as they hoped, small fan reception aside, and he simply chose to step down and move on. Shu has said he has no plans to retire.
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Hudo
Member
Is it known what he's doing next?
SimTourist
Member
Shu lost interest in AAA games a few years ago and was more interested in Indies and was overlooking that side of the business.
Hudo
Member
If he becomes a Twitch streamer, I'd watch him.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Opportunity cost. We now have a lost generation for Sony first party games because of these initiatives. And the fact is, 12 games, which again - they planned to RELEASE, they planned to have 12 live service games out there, basically telling customers they were a live service company - even if they did get those games out, the userbase is not large enough to support 12 live service games. Most people can not play more than one of these.
The studio chose the project in large part because they knew Sony was looking for these games. If you know Sony cares more about live than singleplayer, if you want to get your project funded, you will offer them what they are looking for. It's not like all these studios came up with this idea of live service shit independently.
And they are taking the hit as their first party lineup looks pathetic compared to past generations. I don't see the investment and decisions they made as wise, I see them as foolish, they wasted hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars, the games that are still coming down the pike look mid (like Marathon), and this was a huge mistake. Maybe they'll turn out ok because MS is asleep at the wheel but this is bad.
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yurinka
Member
Yoshida didn't resist anything when he greenlighted Concord, Helldivers 2, Gran Turismo 7, TLOU Online, London Studio new IP and more I may forget. Sony was also publisher for Japan of Destiny 1 and Destiny 2 when it was an Activision game.
They all started development before November 2019, meaning they were greenlighted by Yoshida, not Hermen.
Yoshida also said in the interview that this GaaS push isn't an issue because it didn't affect the SP games output, since they gave Hermen additional, separate resources to work on them (and same for PC ports or remasters).
They all started development before November 2019, meaning they were greenlighted by Yoshida, not Hermen.
Yoshida also said in the interview that this GaaS push isn't an issue because it didn't affect the SP games output, since they gave Hermen additional, separate resources to work on them (and same for PC ports or remasters).
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justiceiro
Marlboro: Other M
Guy is literally putting colorful wig, painted his face, put on a clown nose, a clown shoes, suppenders, telling jokes and making fun dances, but some of you are still unsure if he acting like a clown because he didn't said it. Is nuance impossible to get it on the internet???. Holy shit, guy couldn't be more obvious, but there still some in total denial.
We are wittiness Sony Xbox one moment. I wonder how it will take for you all to realize that.
We are wittiness Sony Xbox one moment. I wonder how it will take for you all to realize that.
What The Fox
Neo Member
Concord was not greenlit by Shu.
Concord started development at firewalk under a publishing house called ProbablyMonsters; Sony didn't greenlight the game. It wasn't until 2021 that ProbablyMonsters and Sony agreed to collaborate on the project, and then in 2023 (for some godforsaken reason) Sony bought firewalk.
HogIsland
Member
Live service is one thing, but I kinda blame Yoshida for taking multiplayer out of Sony first party. Leaning too heavily on single player led to a braindrain that might be a factor in the live service stuff going bumpy.
Yoshida said the problem is first party multiplayer games can't sustain an audience on just Playstation. We know the answer to this: you gotta be on PC too. A lot of great Playstation online games: Warhawk, Killzone 2/3, MAG, Fat Princess, LittleBigPlanet, Dreams, Last of Us Factions, would still have significant PC communities online. You can even transition some of these games to a live service model.
Yoshida said the problem is first party multiplayer games can't sustain an audience on just Playstation. We know the answer to this: you gotta be on PC too. A lot of great Playstation online games: Warhawk, Killzone 2/3, MAG, Fat Princess, LittleBigPlanet, Dreams, Last of Us Factions, would still have significant PC communities online. You can even transition some of these games to a live service model.
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kazuyamishima
Member
He couldn’t prevent the failure of the Vita in his time as president.
That system had such a great potential.
That system had such a great potential.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
True, but the Vita was a great system.
proandrad
Member
Just like Jim Ryan.
kazuyamishima
Member
Indeed, but the lost potential it had was such a waste.
yurinka
Member
Concord was greenlighted by Shuhei Yoshida.
2021 was when the publishing collaboration was publicly announced, not when it started. According to Firewalk Sony was working with them since 'the beggining' (which is 2018) and according to Hermen 'several years' (before the acquisition). Notice also that when announced the publishing deal in 2021 Firewalk said 'Sony has been an incredible partner', which means they were working togethere before the partnership was announced.
Since 2018 and until November 2019 Shuhei Yoshida was the head of PS Studios. So yes, Shuhei Yoshida greenlighted it and was in charge of it over a year, until he moved to PS Indies.
As you can see in their web, Probably Monsters was created in 2018 and officially announced in 2019 and isn't a publisher/publishing house, it's an incubator. Incubators don't publish games, it's a place where they help form new teams offering them office space and mentorship from experienced gamedevs (I collaborate with a gamedev incubator, and in the past did it in another one) on different areas related to gamedev and to run a company, to guide and help them to create their companies, polish their projects and depending on the case maybe also to find funding/investors/publishers.
He was president of WWS (now called PS Studios), not president of SIE. He was only in charge of the first party games, not in charge of the hardware or the division.
There was a reason to replace him: he prefered to leave first party to support indies. So after he left they had to put someone as president of PS Studios.
Now after leaving Sony he says that want to continue supporting indies, not AAA games.
Working on and releasing many award winning and sales record breaking games. And keeping the teams them focused on working on the game themselves, not losing time on making specific demos for E3 trailers that were going to put extra pressure on the teams and generate complains about downgrades.
He prefers to let the games to do the talk instead of making promises for a distant future.
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