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Tesla sales tank in Europe as stock drops 40% in a month

a'la mode

Member
No EU nation is getting free money. They're paying into the budget. This shouldn't mean that EU laws supercede national laws. EU member nations should be sovereign. I think that's even more important for Poland given their history.

It's not quite true that the EU was born as a political project. It started as an economic project with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1951 and then the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1957.

I wouldn't say it became truly a political unity until the Maastricht Treaty of 1993 that established the European Union.

Our general understanding of states is not the end all be all evolution of statehood, and thinking of the EU in terms of the unitary/federal state binary is a bit old fashioned. It sits kind of in between, with key differences of course, like the ability to actually leave the EU whereas states couldn't leave a federation (without a civil war). Also, member states still continue to be sovereign unitary states, but through their membership delegate some of that sovereignty into the EU to ensure that common policy can be adequately created and enforced, and yes, primacy of EU law is also in the package. You can't really apply old "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" to it, because it's really just a collection of states going "fuck it, let's try something new". It's a new construct, an evolution or an experiment, and in the long run it could prove to be better or worse than what came before. So far my impression is that most EU residents, aside from the more nationalistic-populistic leaning parties and groups, have been quite happy with how the EU has turned out to be.

Clinging to the old school of thought in regards to sovereignty is a fair position to have, I'm not telling you you are necessarily wrong, but it can't be denied that a construct like the EU can (and has been so far) be more stable and wield more power and leverage collectively and be a bigger player globally, than a collection of random states jerking left or right on the whim of the current political climate. If all these little countries were alone, the US, Russia, and China would not give two flying shits about what the president from Noonecaresland with less people than these countries have in one city would have to say.
 

a'la mode

Member
And maybe a little more on topic, here's a good video for non-techies to explain what lidar is, and to demonstrate why relying only on cameras can never compete with systems that also uses lidar/radar. Musk promises the moon from the sky in driving automation, but FSD and Robotaxi are already outdated, and dead when compared to the advances made by competitors such as Waymo and Zoox.

 
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Hudo

Gold Member
Sweeping claims, by that you mean the fundamentals of economics which continue to apply in large economies.


Thomas Sowell, Basic Economics:

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Strangely familiar.
TL;DR?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
that’s an oversimplification if I've ever seen one.

The U.S. absolutely plays a massive role in tech and medical innovation, however Europe isn't as stagnant as you suggest. Germany and Switzerland are leaders in medical devices and pharmaceuticals, the U.K. is strong in biotech, greentech from Sweden and the Netherlands etc.

I agree that some nations in Europe, especially those tied to the overly bureaucratic and undemocratic EU, but dismissing Europe entirely ignores some of the world-class research and breakthroughs happening here.

True. I mean look at TSMC. This Taiwanese company makes the world's best computer chips using machines from ASML Holding, which is a Dutch company, IIRC. A ADiTAR
 
And maybe a little more on topic, here's a good video for non-techies to explain what lidar is, and to demonstrate why relying only on cameras can never compete with systems that also uses lidar/radar. Musk promises the moon from the sky in driving automation, but FSD and Robotaxi are already outdated, and dead when compared to the advances made by competitors such as Waymo and Zoox.








GWyE6YE.jpeg
 
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ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
True. I mean look at TSMC. This Taiwanese company makes the world's best computer chips using machines from ASML Holding, which is a Dutch company, IIRC. A ADiTAR
Well, I said barely has a pulse. It's still breathing but you can't compare the entrepreneurship in America to Europe. There's much more push for innovation with much less tape.
 

jason10mm

Gold Member
Under that tough stainless steel "space-grade" exterior is just a cuddly little disaster made out of aluminum and glue. Lipstick on a pig indeed.
I'm sure tesla would say it's "high tensile strength industrial grade epoxy" but if you wanna be disparaging about it, then call it glue.

Like I don't call JB weld "glue" but I guess you can choose your bias in how you want it to sound.
 

a'la mode

Member
I'm sure tesla would say it's "high tensile strength industrial grade epoxy" but if you wanna be disparaging about it, then call it glue.

Like I don't call JB weld "glue" but I guess you can choose your bias in how you want it to sound.

I'm not drinking water out of a glass, I'm drinking dihydrogen monoxide out of a rapid-quenched low thermal expansion coefficient container made out of a silica-boron oxide compound.
 

Zathalus

Member
I'm sure tesla would say it's "high tensile strength industrial grade epoxy" but if you wanna be disparaging about it, then call it glue.

Like I don't call JB weld "glue" but I guess you can choose your bias in how you want it to sound.
The Cybertruck is well know for having various build and QA problems. It fairs poorly against a lot of other trucks out there because the cast aluminum is worse then forged aluminum (or solid steel) and the "high tensile strength industrial grade epoxy" (also known as glue) is prone to breaking and having panels come off. There is a lot to admire about the Cybertruck in terms of feature set, but the build quality is not one of them.
 
Completely out of context clips with no specific details at all.
What is the context and what are the details, then?

If Musk thinks they have points of agreement he should go to Congress and publicly lay it all out in an advisory capacity only.
I think the point is they agree that there is "waste, fraud, and abuse" in well-regarded social welfare programs. But it's not as if there are any string of words that Musk could put together that would cause them to support him or anything he suggests.

And really he doesn't need to go to congress, because the current president is using executive orders far beyond their original intent, just like Biden before him, Trump's first term in office, and Obama before him. It just gets worse and worse with each consecutive president making a larger and larger power grab, but until congress passes laws to change the rules and limit that sort of power, I don't expect any of that to change anytime soon.




I think the real thing that led to this current situation is the fact that you can't spend money through executive orders. As they say, congress has the power of the purse. But I don't think anyone ever accounted for using executive orders to save money rather than spend it.

He literally already said publicly he wants to eliminate those programs.
Do you have a clip of that or a tweet? Are you saying that the full context of what you're talking about is Musk expressing the intent to fully eliminate social security and medicare, and not even replace them with a different social entitlement program? Considering the elderly vote more often than any other group, I can't imagine any political party who would screw with people's retirement money like that. I don't think they'd win another election for a very long time.
 
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a'la mode

Member
Lol, this tesla defense force is pathetic. LIDAR is simply better than cameras, coat as you wish.

Yes, and it's not like it's about which one is simply better either.

All self-driving begins with building and updating a model of world, and that's done by using sensors to sample the real world. It's pretty self-explanatory really; the more sensors you have, and the more types you have, the more data you can collect and the more accurate and robust your model is. You get three main types; cameras, lidar, and radar.

Camera-only solutions will have just that, visual data, and will have to spend considerable effort just trying to interpret and determine objects of interest from plain image data. You have lots of challenges like protrusions, dividers, curbs, objects looking like other objects, and you don't even know the distance to objects - you have to try to figure it out. It will inevitably miss some details, hallucinate, and get distance wrong. Meanwhile, a lidar can build a much more accurate representation of the actual environment. You no longer have to guess what might be a divider or a curb or how far things might be, and it doesn't even matter what the object looks like, it's gonna bounce that ray back at you anyway. You can even detect potholes and uneven road shapes. Radar works on a similar principle, and is a good backup for lidar for more severe weather conditions.

Waymo/Zoox use all three at the same time - they have cameras, lidar, and radar. The Avatr car linked above couples lidar with a camera. Even that duo is much more superior to camera-only. More sensors and more types are simply objectively better and give you a more accurate model of the real world no matter what the Tesla cult will try to argue, as they try to cope with the fact that they put considerable money into their wrong bet, made the whole brand their personality, and no one thinks they are cool anymore. They don't even want to admit that competition is using multiple sensors at the same time because any arguments they have would self-destruct gloriously on the spot - I mean, duh, how did you think the "lidar car" still knew where the lane markings were and what state the traffic lights were in?

Tesla bots are in shambles with their old, outdated tech and stuck at self-automation level 2, whereas the competition is using multiple at the same time and hitting self-automation 4 (where 5 is absolute full automation, the dream).
 
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Sweeping claims, by that you mean the fundamentals of economics which continue to apply in large economies.


Thomas Sowell, Basic Economics:

That was a good read. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say about the current situation, but he's 94, so I think he's probably retired.

So what are the chances that Trump doesn't actually want long term tariffs, and he's doing this to push others into reducing their tariffs on the US? And would other countries ending their tariffs always lead to good things for those countries and their economies?




I also thought this was an interesting exchange:




For those who feel the country was screwed over by decisions like NAFTA allowing and encouraging jobs to leave the US, I can see why people would hear about tariffs and put their faith behind the idea. But if not through the use of tariffs, what would be the right way to reverse the effects of trade agreements that caused almost all American manufacturing to leave the country?

And even aside from just the jobs manufacturing creates, I think the woman in the video above made an interesting point that you can't have genuine national security while you're dependent on other countries for essential resources and manufacturing.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
But if not through the use of tariffs, what would be the right way to reverse the effects of trade agreements that caused almost all American manufacturing to leave the country?

Penalties for companies who outsource excessively and subsidies for crucial industries/tax incentives who employ and manufacture in America would help. If any particular industry of national security interest cannot compete in a globalized capitalist market, then it would probably need to be supported by domestic means. But those types of laws are not going to pass as long as the oligarchy controls the campaign donations of many of our politicians.
 

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
What is the context and what are the details, then?

I think the real thing that led to this current situation is the fact that you can't spend money through executive orders. As they say, congress has the power of the purse. But I don't think anyone ever accounted for using executive orders to save money rather than spend it.
The context is the rest of the video and conversation, which isn't there. Do we even know what year this is? Under Obama they almost cut into SS when Republicans controlled Congress. It was called "the grand bargain." I wouldn't be shocked if Pelosi and Shumer were all for it since they are the most stereotypical corporate democrats there are. People on the left viewed it as one of the biggest betrayals of the democratic party literally ever, and it only didn't happen because republicans were so extreme with their demands that they killed it themselves. Sanders looks about 40 years younger in that video. He's currently touring the country and giving speeches specifically about this issue, so that's a lot of additional context. The tweet just shows a soundbyte that says nothing.

And yes, we know how the law works here. Congress passes the budget, and that's what is spent. If they want to cut, they put that into the next budget or pass a supplemental budget that amends it. You don't get to just ignore what's already been appropriated, even if you're the president. Multiple recent court cases have already backed this up. It's not a mystery.

Do you have a clip of that or a tweet? Are you saying that the full context of what you're talking about is Musk expressing the intent to fully eliminate social security and medicare, and not even replace them with a different social entitlement program?
Absolutely that is the intent. What is this replacement program? The replacement is privatization. Yes there is a video of him saying, "we need to eliminate those. Those are the big ones." You can find it. Do you know he got up on stage at a republican event with a chainsaw next to Javier Milei, the Argentinian president? I think you can figure out what the chainsaw means, usually the opposite of the "scalpel." Do you know who Javier Milei is and why he was brought to the US for that moment? He is a self-described anarcho-capitalist, which means he literally wants to abolish the entire state. Do you know who Curtis Yarvin of the "Dark Enlightenment" is? He's the main ideologue that Musk and Thiel are following and they're the ones who insisted on getting JD Vance in. Ever wondered where "Dark Maga" comes from? You can find many videos breaking down his beliefs if you're curious and want to look into it. There is zero doubt this is what Musk wants.
 
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In fairness, all auto producers use structural adhesives. But i guess its "glue" when framing certain narratives. Someone needed to double check their math, though. It is hilarious that the "panel gap" memes continue to hold validity lol.
 

XXL

Member
In fairness, all auto producers use structural adhesives. But i guess its "glue" when framing certain narratives. Someone needed to double check their math, though. It is hilarious that the "panel gap" memes continue to hold validity lol.
The Cybertruck just got a 5 star rating from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and had the highest rating (for lowest probability of injury and rollover) of any pick up Truck they've ever tested.
 
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The Cybertruck just got a 5 star rating from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and had the highest rating (for lowest probability of injury and rollover) of any pick up Truck they've ever tested.
Exactly. Its obvious the bones are solid. Its just that legendary Tesla fitment.....especially the first runs.
 
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Toons

Member
The context is the rest of the video and conversation, which isn't there. Do we even know what year this is? Under Obama they almost cut into SS when Republicans controlled Congress. It was called "the grand bargain." I wouldn't be shocked if Pelosi and Shumer were all for it since they are the most stereotypical corporate democrats there are. People on the left viewed it as one of the biggest betrayals of the democratic party literally ever, and it only didn't happen because republicans were so extreme with their demands that they killed it themselves. Sanders looks about 40 years younger in that video. He's currently touring the country and giving speeches specifically about this issue, so that's a lot of additional context. The tweet just shows a soundbyte that says nothing.

And yes, we know how the law works here. Congress passes the budget, and that's what is spent. If they want to cut, they put that into the next budget or pass a supplemental budget that amends it. You don't get to just ignore what's already been appropriated, even if you're the president. Multiple recent court cases have already backed this up. It's not a mystery.


Absolutely that is the intent. What is this replacement program? The replacement is privatization. Yes there is a video of him saying, "we need to eliminate those. Those are the big ones." You can find it. Do you know he got up on stage at a republican event with a chainsaw next to Javier Milei, the Argentinian president? I think you can figure out what the chainsaw means, usually the opposite of the "scalpel." Do you know who Javier Milei is and why he was brought to the US for that moment? He is a self-described anarcho-capitalist, which means he literally wants to abolish the entire state. Do you know who Curtis Yarvin of the "Dark Enlightenment" is? He's the main ideologue that Musk and Thiel are following and they're the ones who insisted on getting JD Vance in. Ever wondered where "Dark Maga" comes from? You can find many videos breaking down his beliefs if you're curious and want to look into it. There is zero doubt this is what Musk wants.

JD Vances last like 3 or 4 jobs were under Thiel too lol

Hes literally been literally prepped and prepackaged for this role and shoved into the playing field.

That's partially why he went from a vehement never Trumper to running alongside the guy. Everyone has a price i guess.

Bonus? Thiel is a gay man. Does it count as a DEI hire if the minority is doing the hiring?
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
In fairness, all auto producers use structural adhesives. But i guess its "glue" when framing certain narratives. Someone needed to double check their math, though. It is hilarious that the "panel gap" memes continue to hold validity lol.

That's true. But they aren't done the way the Cybertruck does it. At least not the way I remember
 
Chad_Xi_meme_cover.jpg


How can one man be so based? He constantly brings hilarious justice and divine retribution to the technocrats fucks and he does it so nonchalantly mostly via copyright infringement.
 

AJUMP23

Parody of actual AJUMP23
That was a good read. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say about the current situation, but he's 94, so I think he's probably retired.

So what are the chances that Trump doesn't actually want long term tariffs, and he's doing this to push others into reducing their tariffs on the US? And would other countries ending their tariffs always lead to good things for those countries and their economies?




I also thought this was an interesting exchange:




For those who feel the country was screwed over by decisions like NAFTA allowing and encouraging jobs to leave the US, I can see why people would hear about tariffs and put their faith behind the idea. But if not through the use of tariffs, what would be the right way to reverse the effects of trade agreements that caused almost all American manufacturing to leave the country?

And even aside from just the jobs manufacturing creates, I think the woman in the video above made an interesting point that you can't have genuine national security while you're dependent on other countries for essential resources and manufacturing.

Switch 2 day. Very big day.
 

DrFigs

Member
That was a good read. I'd be interested to hear what he has to say about the current situation, but he's 94, so I think he's probably retired.

So what are the chances that Trump doesn't actually want long term tariffs, and he's doing this to push others into reducing their tariffs on the US? And would other countries ending their tariffs always lead to good things for those countries and their economies?




I also thought this was an interesting exchange:




For those who feel the country was screwed over by decisions like NAFTA allowing and encouraging jobs to leave the US, I can see why people would hear about tariffs and put their faith behind the idea. But if not through the use of tariffs, what would be the right way to reverse the effects of trade agreements that caused almost all American manufacturing to leave the country?

And even aside from just the jobs manufacturing creates, I think the woman in the video above made an interesting point that you can't have genuine national security while you're dependent on other countries for essential resources and manufacturing.

It's a pretty big gamble. It could be that these countries themselves benefit from the tariff war in some way and build up their own industries, to the detriment of U.S. companies. Like Canadians and Europeans might realize they don't need U.S. products as much as they thought they did. And then we just have lower economic growth permanently. I assume what will probably happen is that the next dems that come into power immediately reverse these tariffs (if they last that long) and avoid this anyway.
 
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Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
It's a pretty big gamble. It could be that these countries themselves benefit from the tariff war in some way and build up their own industries, to the detriment of U.S. companies. Like Canadians and Europeans might realize they don't need U.S. products as much as they thought they did. And then we just have lower economic growth permanently. I assume what will probably happen is that the next dems that come into power immediately reverse these tariffs (if they last that long) and avoid this anyway.
Biden didn't reverse any of Trump's tariffs on China. They just didn't have the balls put tariffs on China themselves.
 
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RoboFu

One of the green rats
So it went backup some and evened out. It's still over previous periods. Sorry children the smear campaign almost worked. I don't even like Teslas lol. I don't need a car that I have to expensive specialty service to change a tire.
 

segasonic

Member

Toronto excludes Tesla from EV incentive due to US trade war​

Wa LoneMarch 18, 20252:20 AM GMT+1Updated 10 hours ago
TORONTO, March 17 (Reuters) - Toronto is no longer providing financial incentives for Tesla (TSLA.O) vehicles purchased as taxis or ride shares due to trade tensions with the United States, the city's mayor, Olivia Chow, said on Monday.
The city is promoting the adoption of electric vehicles purchased as vehicles for hire by giving drivers and owners a reduction in licensing fees and renewal fees until the end of 2029, to help it lower emissions.

But as of March 1, Tesla vehicles are no longer eligible for the incentives, Chow said at a news conference.

"The vehicles for hire, like taxis, will have to find a different kind of car," she told Reuters after the news conference. "There are other electric cars they could purchase."

The exclusion will continue until trade issues with the U.S. are resolved, she said.


Tesla did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Chow told Reuters that the decision was made to target and respond to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who is a top adviser to U.S. President Donald Trump. Trump has called for Canada's annexation and imposed tariffs on Canadian products, angering Canadians.
Advertisement · Scroll to continue
"We have certainly said that if you want to buy a Tesla, go ahead, but don't count on taxpayer money to subsidize it," she said.

Chow said the financial impact of the move would not be large.

"It's more symbolic," she said.


 
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Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
So it went backup some and evened out. It's still over previous periods. Sorry children the smear campaign almost worked. I don't even like Teslas lol. I don't need a car that I have to expensive specialty service to change a tire.
It's not a smear campaign. It's some people boycotting. And it's perfectly logical. The funds from Tesla are directly what enables everything Musk does. Hopefully people keep speaking with their wallets. All you can really hope for. It likely wont matter since he has access to whatever he wants from the government now, but it's worth a try.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
A tariff isn't a tax on the country we're importing from ... It's a tax on the importer.

The only thing these tariffs are going to do is pass off the increased taxes onto the end consumer.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Posted this in the other thread, but just a PSA to any Elon fans here looking to buy a Tesla.

Tesla literally has double the fatality rate compared to the national average.

AI Overview
Learn more

A recent study by iSeeCars found that Tesla vehicles have the highest fatal accident rate among car brands, with 5.6 fatal accidents per billion miles driven, compared to the overall average of 2.8.

    • Other studies:
      LendingTree found that Tesla drivers rank number 1 for highest accidents rate, among only 3 car brands that had a rate over 20%.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
Posted this in the other thread, but just a PSA to any Elon fans here looking to buy a Tesla.

Tesla literally has double the fatality rate compared to the national average.

AI Overview
Learn more

A recent study by iSeeCars found that Tesla vehicles have the highest fatal accident rate among car brands, with 5.6 fatal accidents per billion miles driven, compared to the overall average of 2.8.

    • Other studies:
      LendingTree found that Tesla drivers rank number 1 for highest accidents rate, among only 3 car brands that had a rate over 20%.
So you blame the car when even the article you link for proof is all about who has the worst drivers?

Tesla has worst drivers​

Going fully electric may not mean as much if you’re a menace on the streets.

In fact, from Jan. 1, 2024, through Dec. 31, 2024, Tesla had the worst drivers, at 36.94 incidents (accidents, DUIs, speeding and citations) per 1,000 drivers. When we conducted this study in late 2023, Tesla ranked second-worst with 31.13 incidents from Nov. 14, 2022, through Nov. 14, 2023.
 

Kacho

Gold Member
So you blame the car when even the article you link for proof is all about who has the worst drivers?

Tesla has worst drivers​

Going fully electric may not mean as much if you’re a menace on the streets.

In fact, from Jan. 1, 2024, through Dec. 31, 2024, Tesla had the worst drivers, at 36.94 incidents (accidents, DUIs, speeding and citations) per 1,000 drivers. When we conducted this study in late 2023, Tesla ranked second-worst with 31.13 incidents from Nov. 14, 2022, through Nov. 14, 2023.
Always the case with trendy cars. Before Tesla it was the stupid fucking Prius.

In my area, Tesla drivers are either driving obnoxiously slow, jumping on their breaks at every little thing, or driving recklessly. Can't stand them.
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
Always the case with trendy cars. Before Tesla it was the stupid fucking Prius.

In my area, Tesla drivers are either driving obnoxiously slow, jumping on their breaks at every little thing, or driving recklessly. Can't stand them.
Totally agree with you down here in my area in Florida

Its either 70+ year olds that are afraid to drive them or the 30 somethings that can't believe how fast an electric car is
 

XXL

Member
In my area, Tesla drivers are either driving obnoxiously slow, jumping on their breaks at every little thing.
Most of the drivers aren't using the "brakes" as the majority are using 1 pedal driving (which is amazing btw)

What's going on in what you described.... is they are shit 1 pedal drivers and are letting off on the pedal too much triggering the brake lights.

You're supposed to progressively let off of the pedal.
 
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