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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale
- Thread starter PlayALLtheGames
- Start date
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PlayALLtheGames
Banned
Not claiming this is an original thought, but as Clinton has made further strides to securing the nomination over the past week, this has become an increasingly bigger issue among progressives.
Recent poll: "33% of Bernie supporters say they won't vote for Clinton."
This shit isn't funny anymore. We are just about 6 months away from this thing.
If you honestly, genuinely believe the difference between a Trump presidency and a Clinton presidency is negligible, you are a fucking idiot, no matter how progressive you may be.
EVERY Bernie supporter should be willing to commit their support to Clinton if he doesn't win it. Every single one. That doesn't mean they want her to win the nomination. It doesn't mean they like her as much as Bernie. It doesn't mean they must believe she's a progressive. But if you care about progressive values, then you should instinctively know what's right and wrong here.
This concept of not voting if your Democratic nominee isn't the chosen one is more prominent than it has been in a long time. And at a time that is very sensitive.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
If you are able to vote and don't do so, then you are an asshole.
I live in Texas and I'll still be there on election day.
I personally think that's quite fair. Pretty much all of my statements on this issue assume that this is about alleged progressives in contested states.
Mushroomer25
Member
You'd still be failing to make your voice heard in any of the down ticket elections, and contribute to stagnation.
I won't go so far as to say you're an asshole, but I'd certainly call that behavior selfish and short-sighted.
And_Gignac
Member
You cant coerce people to vote for a person / a cause they dont believe in.
Could the OP be more condescending and insulting? I will not be voting for neoliberal crooks and no amount of obnoxious insults or blame is gonna convince me otherwise. Actual progressives and leftists don't vote for the least of two neoliberal evils and this isn't how democracy is supposed to function, end of story. You support a neoliberal, you're a neoliberal because that politician is your representative.
HUELEN10
Member
What if the reasons you like Bernie are also similar to the thugs you like about Trump? I don't like this assumption that every Bernie voter is the same.
reelbigtink
Member
I personally feel that if social progression is important to you (gay marriage, civil rights, racial and gender equality, etc.) then not voting for Hillary is counterproductive. The alternative means a much higher chance of things you enjoy being repealed and setting us back years and possibly even decades.
Well I'm voting for someone regardless. (Of course it won't be Trump).
Angelus Errare
Banned
I'll repeat what I stated earlier.
Bernie "supporters" who are going to vote for Trump or not vote at all were never for Bernie's platform/policies. They hopped on the Bernie train purely because they saw him as "anti-establishment" or worse because of internet hype. They couldn't give a fuck less about what the man stands for or their fellow Americans. They're not progressive as they like to think they are or as they put in their Facebook/Twitter "About me" section. They're hipsters who hopped on a fad.
Bernie "supporters" who are going to vote for Trump or not vote at all were never for Bernie's platform/policies. They hopped on the Bernie train purely because they saw him as "anti-establishment" or worse because of internet hype. They couldn't give a fuck less about what the man stands for or their fellow Americans. They're not progressive as they like to think they are or as they put in their Facebook/Twitter "About me" section. They're hipsters who hopped on a fad.
The ultra-left don't identify as progressives. Progressives are reformists. The ultra-left would identify as radicals, if anything.
And what you're referring to is called accelerationism and is not a widely shared view in radical circles at all.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
a non-vote always, always counts for the worst option. if you want to pretend vacating your civic duty doesn't mean direct complicity, I don't know what to tell you. Congrats on your fortitude?
At least she's not a Republican.
TemplaerDude
Member
Why would someone go out and vote for someone they don't believe in?
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
But if Trump gets elected, and you didn't vote or voted for trump, you better not be on this damn board fucking bitching about this country not being progressive enough and even (possibly) regressing with a overly conservative SCOTUS.
Barajas_201
Member
If Obama is anything to go by, Hillary will be playing 8-dimensional chess and nominate a conservative or a moderate, not a liberal.
gutter_trash
Banned
Bernie is not even a Democrat he is trying to hijack the Democratic Party's Primaries because he knew he would go no where if he ran as an Independent
same way Donald Trump has hijacked the Republican Party's Primaries but Donald picked up more success than Bernie
you can't blame Party members going nyah to him
same way Donald Trump has hijacked the Republican Party's Primaries but Donald picked up more success than Bernie
you can't blame Party members going nyah to him
You can, however, convince logical people to keep the dream alive so that it may be pursued in subsequent election cycles.
---
For the BernieOrBusters, I'm still all-ears for that logical counter argument. Heres your opportunity #1026 to come up with a response.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Still an asshole, sorry bruh. Stand up and be counted as a voice against awfulness.
Unknown One
Member
It's regressive that you're giving the Republicans a higher chance at total control of the White House.
HUELEN10
Member
Anyone can complain, regardless of vote, as we all have the ability to grow and change opinions when presented with new evidence, no?
Oh please.
There are plenty of reasons to have a very strong, very valid dislike of Hilary Clinton. I don't believe she has a genuine ideological bone in her body. She wants political power to be powerful, and the countless examples of her flip-flopping and lying to gain support from different sectors of the voting public shows this. Voting for her is a vote for the status quo. Quite literally, I doubt her presidency would see any significant changes.
Her only redeemable feature is that she's is the only candidate who will stop Trump.
Related, this fantastic Reddit post from yesterday should help disillusioned Bernie fans realise the folly in thinking Trump is a better fit for them than Clinton. It shows that the core policies and topics that Sanders was for, Trump is strongly against.
https://www.reddit.com/r/circlebroke/comments/4ao8fx/donald_trump_is_not_the_alternative_to_senator/
You will never get anyone here to successfully explain how turning-over SCOTUS to the GOP for a generation would help further progressive goals.
If you're willing to stick a judicial ice pick into Bernie's vision for a generation, you weren't all that serious about his issues to begin with. You're more about the man than his stated ideals. It'd be the honorable and honest thing to just come out and admit that you're voting personality over policy.
And now that I've said this, let's wait for the crickets, shall we?
Bam, nailed it. People need to realize that even if they can't get everything they want, they sure can LOSE a lot of what they already have pretty easily.
The party lines are drawn at this point. If you want to try and change the direction of the party whose ideals you line up with, do it at the primary stage. Go support Bernie right now. But staying home or going to the other extreme when November rolls around is just going to send the opposite message and push the middle ground further to the right again.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Because of the way voting and our country works. Not voting is a vote for Trump/Cruz.
Tesseract
Banned
Because first post the pass first, lesser of two evils, pick my guy or die
It's bollocks of course.
cpp_is_king
Member
"You're a piece of shit because you're not voting for who I want you to vote for" is pretty stale too. Democracy doesn't mean you get to pick the candidate, and then everyone has to vote for that candidate. It means everyone votes for whoever they want to, and the person who wins represents the majority of the country.
If it's Trump it's Trump. If it's Bernie it's Bernie. If it's Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho, well the majority has spoken.
Democracy isn't good only when your candidate wins.
timetokill
Banned
No it doesn't. That's a completely ridiculous statement based out of nothing but trying to guilt people into voting for someone else's preferred candidate.
If non-votes counted for the worst option, the worst option would win every election.
Mushroomer25
Member
Because the only things Trump & Bernie have in common are their 'outsider' status, and a handful of relatively small policies (which they may agree on for fundamentally different reasons).
If you only vote for a candidate because they're 'not a part of the establishment', and completely ignore the views they have - that's an insane way to pick governance.
JHoNNy1OoO
Member
This is what I think a lot of the "Bernie or Bust" people don't get.
It's all fine and dandy to not like Hillary or be against a lot of her policies. But there is zero doubt that some progressive policies will be continued in the right direction. Even if it is only the Supreme Court it puts future progressive policies in a better position to succeed.
They get so hung up on the candidate when it is a lot fucking more than just that. Global climate change is a huge deal and with Hillary we have a chance to actually get something done about it. Trump or another Republican gets into office? It won't even be mentioned for 4-8 years.
In the end I think the majority will wake the fuck up. I just hope they don't realize it after 8 years of Trump and more wars and more tax breaks for the wealthy and more deregulation and more right wingers on the Supreme Court to destroy progressive policies when they get inevitably challenged in the future.
HUELEN10
Member
And this, even though I hate the wording, is what a lot of people forget. He is democrat solely in name... Which is the reason a lot of us voted for him first in the first place, and why some of us would never vote Clinton.
"No true scotsman", amirite?
But, seriously, only place you can argue that is foreign policy and the millitary, domestically she has always been solidly liberal.
And let me be clear: I'm neither a progressive nor a Hilary supporter, but you can be damn sure I'm voting for her over any abomination that can survive the Republican nomination. Throwing a hissy fit because you can't get your perfect candidate into the general is childish.
Why can't you do all that and vote?
Elected officials have a major effect on the treatment of the underprivileged, unions, education, all that, right? I mean, they are the ones who make the policy.
So WHY wouldn't you participate in the process that elects those people!? Especially since it takes much less effort than anything you've listed and has a significant effect on people's lives.
By not voting, you're refusing to take a simple action that can help effect major changes on all the issues you care about. So vote.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
These are absolutely the same losers who voted for Ralph Nader and got us Bush. Think about the 100s of thousands dead in Iraq and think your piddly 3-5% doesn't matter.
gutter_trash
Banned
Ron Paul?
MiketheBSG
Member
I supported Bernie, but if it's between Hillary and Trump, I'm no fool, I will support Hillary.
Particularly if you liked Obama's policies, something Hillary supports, why would you not vote so those same policies would be reversed by the opposing party? It's not smart thinking at all.
Particularly if you liked Obama's policies, something Hillary supports, why would you not vote so those same policies would be reversed by the opposing party? It's not smart thinking at all.
I don't like Clinton but I'm going to vote for her in the general because keeping SCOTUS sane is more important than my personal tastes.
Hard to imagine how a Bernie fan could justify throwing SCOTUS to anti-gay, anti-voting rights, pro-dark money campaign finance, anti-abortion, anti-universal healthcare, etc.
I don't think it is. The attacks of 2008 were far worse and more toxic yet they eventually came together and that will happen here. If Hillary does lose it will not be due to Bernie supporters not voting or crossing the line, it will be because she had bad favorables in combination with energized Trump supporters.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
You are considering the outcome. It's several steps above some people here.
Plus, you gotta remember you don't just vote for president.
HUELEN10
Member
Voted for him in 08 as a write-in, proud of it too; not the only one either.
Tesseract
Banned
Holy shit are you serious with this
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Cause "I don't believe in her/her policies".
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
ok, don't vote.
TemplaerDude
Member
I'd still rather not vote. Going out and voting for someone I have absolutely no faith in just so someone else that I have absolutely no faith in doesn't get in power makes no sense to me.
The point is, do YOU do any of that? Or do you just vote? If it's just the latter, I'm going to choose to look at you in the same condescending manner. Because it makes me feel important.
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