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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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I’m thinking...thinking.

And still can’t think how XSX is the guaranteed baseline with no possibility of it being the other way around, at least some of the time. Some kind of mandate?

I can’t think why some dev under time and budget pressure will go gangbusters on XSX and then spend additional time optimising for lockheart because his 1080p XSX Gfx masterpiece (Checkerborded to 4K) would need to be be scaled to 480p 20fps on lockheart otherwise.

I too wish we could live in a utopia where time and money is irrelevant and the concept of least resistance does not apply.
The idea behind Lockheart should infact not require optimization because it should be the same tech, you scale a couple of things down and that's it. This is the ideal scenario, but I don't know.
 

Fake

Member
Ohhhh so now DF is a reputable source... I'm not sure what your post history regarding DF is but many many people here say they are to be ignored.
I never discredit Digital Foundry, even when they say 'seX is 12TF'. In fact, here you'll be see me posting the most stuff of Digital Foundry.
 
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So here’s the chain of things, and how they will play out.

Series X > LockHart >>> Xbox one

On this chain, Xbox one X is irrelevant because it will essentially run the xbox one data at a higher resolution.

Let’s start at the top, Series X. Games will be made for Series X as a base. They will take advantage of the 12tf of power, and include all the visual bells and whistles, high resolution textures, high polygon assets and cpu bound events such as better and more ai, as well as other cpu bound features. This will run at an average resolution of 4k but will make use of other features such as dynamic resolution etc.

We move down to Lockhart, and this is where people get confused. Now, we have a theoretical system that has less memory and a slower GPU, meaning lower tf. However the system architecture is the same modern one, the SSD is the same, the cpu is the same. These last two are important. Actual Game medium is not a concern here, be it disk or download, As performance between the two is the same.

Now, on the lockhart spec, because it’s the same architecture, it can run EXACTLY the same game, at the same resolution and same quality as the SX. However, the performance would, quite obviously, drop to a stupid level. This is basic stuff at this point.

So what do you do? Well, the cpu is the same, so anything cpu bound stays exactly the same, and won’t make a blind bit of difference.But GPU grunt is lower, so you will reduce resolution first to 1080p (as this is a 1080p machine anyway), and then reduce fidelity in other areas once you’re there, however, the resolution drop alone will free up enough resources for the game to pretty much fall exactly in line, performance wise. But there are other areas to reduce, such as overly complex RT elements and shadow mapping etc etc, all of which can be reduced further and have near ZERO visible fidelity reduction due to the drop in resolution.

However, again, what about memory? Well, because you’ve dropped your base rendering resolution, you’ve actually freed up a lot of memory and will no longer get thrashing, so you could have 12gb instead of 16 here and not even need to touch asset quality or lod.

The SSD is the same, meaning all target losing and streaming is the same over both unite.

Ergo, the Lockhart will run SX quality games at a reduced resolution and possible few smaller changes, with no real serious input needed for the developer. This part is important. Digital Foundry released a video just the other day about Doom on pc and how they can make a much slower card run at a near enough locked 60fps just using the same settings but adaptive resolution ALONE. Take a look.

Now then, we could to Xbox one, and this is where things get fucked up. Because have you have so many different things, such as a mechanical drive, or a slow ass Jaguar, that you can’t just lower the asset quality. Here, you will likely see games being made specially for this system, under the same sku. You will see things like COD Ghosts, and a Forza Horizon 2; That is, games that are essentially the same game, but made from the ground up for the lowest system. There is no other way to get the game working else.

This is why they made such a huge deal about their asset delivery system.

This is how this shit works. It’s not difficult. But I understand that you need something to take your rage and anger out on, so whatever, have at it. But why would a company put so much money into R&D for a massive 12tf system, just for them to only use the grunt of a 4k system 🤣🤣🤣

THINK.
Except if won't be 16 GB for XBX, it's allegedly going to be 13 GB (yep, only). So Lockhart will have allegedly 9 GB for games. 4 GB lower than XBX, which is a lot. That could be a problem in some games. Reducing the res won't be enough, they'll have to reduce the quality of textures, effects and such making the Lockhart version a real port, not a downred version) and devs will have to always think about the 9GB baseline of Lockhart games.

Whether you like it or not, Lockhart will be new baseline for mutliplat games running on all next gen consoles.

Now it's being rumored that PS5 will have some DDR4 for the OS, leaving more GDDR6 for the games. Imagine if PS5 end up with 15GB for the games Vs 9GB for Lockhart. But I think we'll know and talk more about it once we have more feedbacks from devs... maybe from you too :messenger_winking:
 
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Neo Blaster

Member
Between Ghosts release date today and the HBO last of us announcements today i feel like this is sony feeling the pressure to say something to their fanbase. I do think the PS5 situation is a mess behind the scenes and the release date has been pushed back, probably.
Well, they had to cut the last corners before go all in on PS5, GoT date was one of them.
 

Fun Fanboy

Banned
You proved he doesn't like pc games?.... Are you sure about that?
No worries. I like my minecraft, empire of the undergrowth and Civ 6... but I was just trying to let him know in the grand scheme of it all that lockhart won't hold back XSX games, like my cheesy computer doesn't hold back big beefy gaming rigs people put together.

Then he kind of lost it. Oh well. We will see at one point who's right! That's for sure. :)
 
More like "Nani? Navi? Nabi? "

Jokes aside, I am not following the news recently, are these images from the same game (assumingly an early on-stage demo vs production version)?
They are, generally night scenes looks better and the first image is "empty" so it may look so different, but where you can see details it's insane regardless, for example all the little drawings on the chest (first image) vs shoulder armor (second). Plus, not considering YouTube and my screens resolution, the image is clean as fuck, the clarity of faces, hairs and sword is insane also in the first image.
Edit: no sword in the first image but in video there is, just a different cut.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I never discredit Digital Foundry, even when they say 'seX is 12TF'.
360 games look and run better than PS3 = Leadbetter and gang paid off by MS

PS4 games look better than One due to pixel counts saying PS4 games usually at 1080p = DF is a great site

SeX is 12tf which MS already hinted at with “double the power of X” and now MS stating 12tf on their site and twitter = Leadbetter and gang paid off by MS again
 
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MarkMe2525

Banned
Never discret Digital Foundry, even when they say 'seX is 12TF'.
Just busting some chops. I would like to comment on the quote you posted though. I read it as developers he spoke with are stating it requires more work when they have to optimize for a less powerful machine. Now one could argue that by wasting time optimizing that it holds the series x version back, but a developer could just a sign or higher the necessary resources to do so without sacrificing their vision. FYI I'm not a Dev so I could just be full of shit.
 

hardseppo

Member
Will Lockhart really hold "Series X" back? I dunno, as far as I interpret it, Lockhart also has a SSD. So Lockhart maybe is the 1080p console and Series X is the 4K/8K console + raytracing. But with a cheap entry point, Lockhart + Gamepass possibly might attract a differrent kind of user. Just speculation of course.

And as for the games, PS5 games made by Sony will be glorious as usual, but this time I think Microsoft will also improve greatly with those new studios... I mean, with all the talent they snatched for "The Initiative" from Naughty Dog and Co., I expect an amazing game. Please be Perfect Dark.

Man I can't wait for Fall 2020 with all that next-gen awesomeness... but I am scared as well of that many consoles in our household. My kids are playing enough already 😂

PS: The only thing I am a bit worried about is Sony's ongoing sexyness-censorship path... with DMC5 (compared to X/PC) or much, much more with DoAX Scarlet (compared to Switch!).
 
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There is nothing wrong or inaccurate with what you’ve written and I commend you for taking the time. But because it is as you’ve written is what makes the whole conundrum of 2 target platforms the core issue.

We will never have the privilege of knowing if a game on XSX vs lockheart is a game it could have been if XSX was the one and true baseline. Could we have had a game with higher scene complexity? Higher fidelity assets? But instead maybe we are just getting
slider values like Lod improvement, shadow quality & resolution because the design blueprint had to take a 4tf system into account and run it at 60fps there.

More than 1 thing can be true at the same time.

That's true too, but we should keep in mind the games that will most likely be getting push for cross-gen support are the biggest of games, with teams in multiple hundreds. And that's without even knowing if development of the previous-gen games will be done by a different team altogether, which is what we saw with some games as the start of this generation.

Personally I think there's two ways MS can avoid the confusion altogether while still taking the limited cross-gen/dual SKU approach. Make Lockhart a portable hybrid-like gaming device (scaling down becomes more of an incentive), and simply provide cross-gen support on older platforms through some combination of GamePass and Xcloud streaming. If a 3rd party dev wants to take up doing a native port to the XBO S or X, so be it, but targeting XSX as their internal baseline for 1st party should be paramount.

If Lockhart really is just a cheaper traditional-style console and MS is gungho on doing native ports for XBO S and X, or prioritizing Lockhart in a way where they use it as the baseline and scale upward (for even the AAA games; stuff like Ori for example I can easily see targeting Lockhart because as good as that kind of game looks you don't need a system like XSX to develop it), then while it'll be easier than ever, I can see it providing some challenges that could've been avoided.
 
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Fake

Member
Just busting some chops. I would like to comment on the quote you posted though. I read it as developers he spoke with are stating it requires more work when they have to optimize for a less powerful machine. Now one could argue that by wasting time optimizing that it holds the series x version back, but a developer could just a sign or higher the necessary resources to do so without sacrificing their vision. FYI I'm not a Dev so I could just be full of shit.
Devs love to get some attention, but for not 'lose their jobs', their prefer anonymity. Neither me is a dev, and even if I would, those thinks vary from dev to dev.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
The PC performs exponentially better at being a vagina repellent than the SX

Indeed as you can barely finish a gaming session :messenger_winking_tongue: :messenger_beaming:

ezgif.com_video_to_gif.gif
 

MarkMe2525

Banned
I know this is the wrong place... but screw it!!! Can neo members not edit posts? I was using voice transcription for my last post and would like to edit out some of the errors.
 
I’m thinking...thinking.

And still can’t think how XSX is the guaranteed baseline with no possibility of it being the other way around, at least some of the time. Some kind of mandate?

I can’t think why some dev under time and budget pressure will go gangbusters on XSX and then spend additional time optimising for lockheart because his 1080p XSX Gfx masterpiece (Checkerborded to 4K) would need to be scaled to 480p 20fps on lockheart otherwise.

I too wish we could live in a utopia where time and money is irrelevant and the concept of least resistance does not apply.

If the dev has built a game that misses the target mark of the console that badly, they would just scale it down on Lockhart just the same. Your example is the equivalent of a Sony 1st party dev going with 720p on PS4, it's not likely to happen. Next-Gen will be 4k at baseline, with VRS helping them to cheat the pixel count where they can. I doubt you'd ever see anything less than 1440p on the next-gen boxes, which might push lockhart to sub 1080p it will be working the VRS magic too. Whatever they do on XSX, just chop the resolution down and maybe lower a few things for lockhart. It's all hypothetical, but it's not really a new concept (just new for the console space).
 
Except if won't be 16 GB for XBX, it's allegedly going to be 13 GB (yep, only). So Lockhart will have allegedly 9 GB for games. 4 GB lower than XBX, which is a lot. That could be a problem in some games. Reducing the res won't be enough, they'll have to reduce the quality of textures, effects and such making the Lockhart version a real port, not a downred version) and devs will have to always think about the 9GB baseline of Lockhart games.

Whether you like it or not, Lockhart will be new baseline for mutliplat games running on all next gen consoles.

Now it's being rumored that PS5 will have some DDR4 for the OS, leaving more GDDR6 for the games. Imagine if PS5 end up with 15GB for the games Vs 9GB for Lockhart. But I think we'll know and talk more about it once we have more feedbacks from devs... maybe from you too :messenger_winking:

Say what? X1X didn't get to use all of its ram for games either. The OS needs some too. If Lockhart has the same amount of ram as X1X, that's an advantage for Lockhart, it doesn't need to deal with 4k assets.
 
I’m thinking...thinking.

And still can’t think how XSX is the guaranteed baseline with no possibility of it being the other way around, at least some of the time. Some kind of mandate?

I can’t think why some dev under time and budget pressure will go gangbusters on XSX and then spend additional time optimising for lockheart because his 1080p XSX Gfx masterpiece (Checkerborded to 4K) would need to be scaled to 480p 20fps on lockheart otherwise.

I too wish we could live in a utopia where time and money is irrelevant and the concept of least resistance does not apply.
There will be games that take Lockheart as a base, Microsoft can't prevent that. But I expect most developers to develop for Series X first and then downgrade for Lockhart.
Why?
Most heavy expenders are going to be in Series X and PS5
Halo effect: People see the Series X version of the game and that makes it more probable that they will buy it even if they have Lockhart. Similar to in engine trailers. You use high quality footage as showcase and people will buy the game even if the actual game is severely downgraded.

We have several examples in this generation where One X versions of games are relatively much better than One S version. Eg Red Dead Redemption 2.

Lockhart will limit the scope of some games, but it won't be as bad as you make it. Specially if, as I hope, Lockhart sells less units than Series X and PS5.
 
Nice cut-scenes indeed. Although the facial animations are seriously off, like completely handmade/computer generated vs an actual mo-cap.
Meh, there are still few titles who can match this, animation wise we are still far from beign actually good, this is actually in the 1% frame of quality.
Yes, they are cutscenes, as there are cutscenes in Uncharted 4, yet you barely see the difference. Gameplay saw so far is insane too, go to the 2018 gameplay. Density and foliage movements are top tier.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Meh, there are still few titles who can match this, animation wise we are still far from beign actually good, this is actually in the 1% frame of quality.
Yes, they are cutscene, as there are cutscene in Uncharted 4, yet you barely see the difference. Gameplay saw so far is insane too, go to the 2018 gameplay. Density and foliage movements are top tier.
Sounds nuts, but yesterday I was watching some Tekken 2 YT videos. I forget why but some reason. I was looking for King videos showing all those crazy crunching moves which then lead to other characters.

as blocky as those 1996 polygons were , the characters animated smooth with lots of variety.
 

CthulhuPL

Member
I can see why Sony is still waiting for the reveal. They simply don't need to show it now. Ghost of Tsushima looks phenomenal and kinda next gen already. Just wow. And I'm sure it will be fun game to play. GoT, TLoU2 and FF7 all in the near future... Sony waits for the dust to settle after this titles and then they will attack. And when they will attack we will not survive it (Gaf surely don't) :D Just my 2 cents.
 
Sounds nuts, but yesterday I was watching some Tekken 2 YT videos. I forget why but some reason. I was looking for King videos showing all those crazy crunching moves which then lead to other characters.

as blocky as those 1996 polygons were , the characters animated smooth with lots of variety.
I was referring to facial animations, my bad.
 

llien

Banned
In short, there is nothing that an SX can do at 12tf, that the lock hart can’t do with reduced resolution and a few settings toned down.

Yeah. That works so well in PC world, chuckle.

This will increase the effort needed to develop for XSeX, which might force many studios to compromize PC gaming style.
 

Raploz

Member
Let's talk about the SSDs a little bit. SSDs will be amazing next-gen but they won't solve all issues.

I'm probably stating the obvious, but reading this topic I noticed some people think pop-in will be completely eliminated on next-gen games because of the high speed SSDs, but that's not true.

As far as I know the reason for pop-in can be related to slow storage speed, but most of the time it's because devs are purposely trying to reduce the amount of objects on screen to save on performance.

Pop-in will be reduced and we'll probably won't have objects appearing 5 meters away, but it won't go away completely. Objects in the distance will still appear out of nowhere, and we'll still have LoD transitions.

😭
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Let's talk about the SSDs a little bit. SSDs will be amazing next-gen but they won't solve all issues.

I'm probably stating the obvious, but reading this topic I noticed some people think pop-in will be completely eliminated on next-gen games because of the high speed SSDs, but that's not true.

As far as I know the reason for pop-in can be related to slow storage speed, but most of the time it's because devs are purposely trying to reduce the amount of objects on screen to save on performance.

Pop-in will be reduced and we'll probably won't have objects appearing 5 meters away, but it won't go away completely. Objects in the distance will still appear out of nowhere, and we'll still have LoD transitions.

😭
SSD potential issues have been brought up before.

the key issue is what happens if you got most of your games on a standard external HDD because that 500gb - 1tb SSD is only big enough for so many games.

it came down to a few possibilities.

1. Your fucked. Go buy an external SSD

2. The system can somehow in real time or pre-game load game data from the external into the SSD so everything runs off the SSD

3. Things run off SSD get the perks. Games running off the HDD 5400rpm run like a game in current systems.

maybe there’s more possibilities.
 
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