VanSiriusGabriel
Member
The idea behind Lockheart should infact not require optimization because it should be the same tech, you scale a couple of things down and that's it. This is the ideal scenario, but I don't know.
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Fake
Member
I never discredit Digital Foundry, even when they say 'seX is 12TF'. In fact, here you'll be see me posting the most stuff of Digital Foundry.
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bitbydeath
Member
So who’s making the AMD thread?
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] Driving Us Broke
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] They have Intel
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] Secret Sauce Edition
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] Driving Us Broke
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] They have Intel
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] Secret Sauce Edition
Physiognomonics
Member
Except if won't be 16 GB for XBX, it's allegedly going to be 13 GB (yep, only). So Lockhart will have allegedly 9 GB for games. 4 GB lower than XBX, which is a lot. That could be a problem in some games. Reducing the res won't be enough, they'll have to reduce the quality of textures, effects and such making the Lockhart version a real port, not a downred version) and devs will have to always think about the 9GB baseline of Lockhart games.So here’s the chain of things, and how they will play out.
Series X > LockHart >>> Xbox one
On this chain, Xbox one X is irrelevant because it will essentially run the xbox one data at a higher resolution.
Let’s start at the top, Series X. Games will be made for Series X as a base. They will take advantage of the 12tf of power, and include all the visual bells and whistles, high resolution textures, high polygon assets and cpu bound events such as better and more ai, as well as other cpu bound features. This will run at an average resolution of 4k but will make use of other features such as dynamic resolution etc.
We move down to Lockhart, and this is where people get confused. Now, we have a theoretical system that has less memory and a slower GPU, meaning lower tf. However the system architecture is the same modern one, the SSD is the same, the cpu is the same. These last two are important. Actual Game medium is not a concern here, be it disk or download, As performance between the two is the same.
Now, on the lockhart spec, because it’s the same architecture, it can run EXACTLY the same game, at the same resolution and same quality as the SX. However, the performance would, quite obviously, drop to a stupid level. This is basic stuff at this point.
So what do you do? Well, the cpu is the same, so anything cpu bound stays exactly the same, and won’t make a blind bit of difference.But GPU grunt is lower, so you will reduce resolution first to 1080p (as this is a 1080p machine anyway), and then reduce fidelity in other areas once you’re there, however, the resolution drop alone will free up enough resources for the game to pretty much fall exactly in line, performance wise. But there are other areas to reduce, such as overly complex RT elements and shadow mapping etc etc, all of which can be reduced further and have near ZERO visible fidelity reduction due to the drop in resolution.
However, again, what about memory? Well, because you’ve dropped your base rendering resolution, you’ve actually freed up a lot of memory and will no longer get thrashing, so you could have 12gb instead of 16 here and not even need to touch asset quality or lod.
The SSD is the same, meaning all target losing and streaming is the same over both unite.
Ergo, the Lockhart will run SX quality games at a reduced resolution and possible few smaller changes, with no real serious input needed for the developer. This part is important. Digital Foundry released a video just the other day about Doom on pc and how they can make a much slower card run at a near enough locked 60fps just using the same settings but adaptive resolution ALONE. Take a look.
Now then, we could to Xbox one, and this is where things get fucked up. Because have you have so many different things, such as a mechanical drive, or a slow ass Jaguar, that you can’t just lower the asset quality. Here, you will likely see games being made specially for this system, under the same sku. You will see things like COD Ghosts, and a Forza Horizon 2; That is, games that are essentially the same game, but made from the ground up for the lowest system. There is no other way to get the game working else.
This is why they made such a huge deal about their asset delivery system.
This is how this shit works. It’s not difficult. But I understand that you need something to take your rage and anger out on, so whatever, have at it. But why would a company put so much money into R&D for a massive 12tf system, just for them to only use the grunt of a 4k system
THINK.
Whether you like it or not, Lockhart will be new baseline for mutliplat games running on all next gen consoles.
Now it's being rumored that PS5 will have some DDR4 for the OS, leaving more GDDR6 for the games. Imagine if PS5 end up with 15GB for the games Vs 9GB for Lockhart. But I think we'll know and talk more about it once we have more feedbacks from devs... maybe from you too
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Neo Blaster
Member
Well, they had to cut the last corners before go all in on PS5, GoT date was one of them.
Fun Fanboy
Banned
No worries. I like my minecraft, empire of the undergrowth and Civ 6... but I was just trying to let him know in the grand scheme of it all that lockhart won't hold back XSX games, like my cheesy computer doesn't hold back big beefy gaming rigs people put together.
Then he kind of lost it. Oh well. We will see at one point who's right! That's for sure.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
They are, generally night scenes looks better and the first image is "empty" so it may look so different, but where you can see details it's insane regardless, for example all the little drawings on the chest (first image) vs shoulder armor (second). Plus, not considering YouTube and my screens resolution, the image is clean as fuck, the clarity of faces, hairs and sword is insane also in the first image.
Edit: no sword in the first image but in video there is, just a different cut.
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geordiemp
Member
The state of next-gen: Examining the battlegrounds on which the PS5 and Xbox Series X will fight
With a new round of consoles drawing near, Edge examines the battlegrounds on which the next generation will fightwww.gamesradar.com
Apparently there's rumours of an imminent PS5 wired cover...
Rumours where ? Links ?
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
360 games look and run better than PS3 = Leadbetter and gang paid off by MS
PS4 games look better than One due to pixel counts saying PS4 games usually at 1080p = DF is a great site
SeX is 12tf which MS already hinted at with “double the power of X” and now MS stating 12tf on their site and twitter = Leadbetter and gang paid off by MS again
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Gamernyc78
Banned
MarkMe2525
Banned
Just busting some chops. I would like to comment on the quote you posted though. I read it as developers he spoke with are stating it requires more work when they have to optimize for a less powerful machine. Now one could argue that by wasting time optimizing that it holds the series x version back, but a developer could just a sign or higher the necessary resources to do so without sacrificing their vision. FYI I'm not a Dev so I could just be full of shit.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But that'll also make the console cost $399.
hardseppo
Member
Will Lockhart really hold "Series X" back? I dunno, as far as I interpret it, Lockhart also has a SSD. So Lockhart maybe is the 1080p console and Series X is the 4K/8K console + raytracing. But with a cheap entry point, Lockhart + Gamepass possibly might attract a differrent kind of user. Just speculation of course.
And as for the games, PS5 games made by Sony will be glorious as usual, but this time I think Microsoft will also improve greatly with those new studios... I mean, with all the talent they snatched for "The Initiative" from Naughty Dog and Co., I expect an amazing game. Please be Perfect Dark.
Man I can't wait for Fall 2020 with all that next-gen awesomeness... but I am scared as well of that many consoles in our household. My kids are playing enough already
PS: The only thing I am a bit worried about is Sony's ongoing sexyness-censorship path... with DMC5 (compared to X/PC) or much, much more with DoAX Scarlet (compared to Switch!).
And as for the games, PS5 games made by Sony will be glorious as usual, but this time I think Microsoft will also improve greatly with those new studios... I mean, with all the talent they snatched for "The Initiative" from Naughty Dog and Co., I expect an amazing game. Please be Perfect Dark.
Man I can't wait for Fall 2020 with all that next-gen awesomeness... but I am scared as well of that many consoles in our household. My kids are playing enough already
PS: The only thing I am a bit worried about is Sony's ongoing sexyness-censorship path... with DMC5 (compared to X/PC) or much, much more with DoAX Scarlet (compared to Switch!).
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
That's true too, but we should keep in mind the games that will most likely be getting push for cross-gen support are the biggest of games, with teams in multiple hundreds. And that's without even knowing if development of the previous-gen games will be done by a different team altogether, which is what we saw with some games as the start of this generation.
Personally I think there's two ways MS can avoid the confusion altogether while still taking the limited cross-gen/dual SKU approach. Make Lockhart a portable hybrid-like gaming device (scaling down becomes more of an incentive), and simply provide cross-gen support on older platforms through some combination of GamePass and Xcloud streaming. If a 3rd party dev wants to take up doing a native port to the XBO S or X, so be it, but targeting XSX as their internal baseline for 1st party should be paramount.
If Lockhart really is just a cheaper traditional-style console and MS is gungho on doing native ports for XBO S and X, or prioritizing Lockhart in a way where they use it as the baseline and scale upward (for even the AAA games; stuff like Ori for example I can easily see targeting Lockhart because as good as that kind of game looks you don't need a system like XSX to develop it), then while it'll be easier than ever, I can see it providing some challenges that could've been avoided.
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Fake
Member
Devs love to get some attention, but for not 'lose their jobs', their prefer anonymity. Neither me is a dev, and even if I would, those thinks vary from dev to dev.
HawarMiran
Banned
When is the stream?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
MarkMe2525
Banned
I know this is the wrong place... but screw it!!! Can neo members not edit posts? I was using voice transcription for my last post and would like to edit out some of the errors.
chilichote
Member
You have 5 minutes to edit^^
Fake
Member
They always can surprise us.
Neo Blaster
Member
And that's a big problem MS have to solve.
Fake
Member
What post?
I think it is 4 pm est North America time.
demigod
Member
darrenskywalker replied to
DeepEnigma
that he's a senior developer, he edited the post and took out the senior dev with some gifs and then it got deleted.
SportsFan581
Member
If the dev has built a game that misses the target mark of the console that badly, they would just scale it down on Lockhart just the same. Your example is the equivalent of a Sony 1st party dev going with 720p on PS4, it's not likely to happen. Next-Gen will be 4k at baseline, with VRS helping them to cheat the pixel count where they can. I doubt you'd ever see anything less than 1440p on the next-gen boxes, which might push lockhart to sub 1080p it will be working the VRS magic too. Whatever they do on XSX, just chop the resolution down and maybe lower a few things for lockhart. It's all hypothetical, but it's not really a new concept (just new for the console space).
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Maybe he meant señor dev holmes.
ZywyPL
Banned
How the actual fuck
Like
Nani?
Nice cut-scenes indeed. Although the facial animations are seriously off, like completely handmade/computer generated vs an actual mo-cap.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
darrenskywalker replied to
Senior FUD pusher.
demigod
Member
Btw I am actually Yumi Yang and my lesbian lover is ikumi Nakamura, please believe me I'm not lying.
Neo Blaster
Member
Hope it's not this:
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] Just a generic slide
Fatal Enigma
Member
About ps5? No
Grandmaster Hash
Banned
Naughty Dog doesn't mocap their facial animations so it's not like that's intrinsically worse
SportsFan581
Member
Except if won't be 16 GB for XBX, it's allegedly going to be 13 GB (yep, only). So Lockhart will have allegedly 9 GB for games. 4 GB lower than XBX, which is a lot. That could be a problem in some games. Reducing the res won't be enough, they'll have to reduce the quality of textures, effects and such making the Lockhart version a real port, not a downred version) and devs will have to always think about the 9GB baseline of Lockhart games.
Whether you like it or not, Lockhart will be new baseline for mutliplat games running on all next gen consoles.
Now it's being rumored that PS5 will have some DDR4 for the OS, leaving more GDDR6 for the games. Imagine if PS5 end up with 15GB for the games Vs 9GB for Lockhart. But I think we'll know and talk more about it once we have more feedbacks from devs... maybe from you too
Say what? X1X didn't get to use all of its ram for games either. The OS needs some too. If Lockhart has the same amount of ram as X1X, that's an advantage for Lockhart, it doesn't need to deal with 4k assets.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Is that part of the Yang gang?
David Ricardo
Member
There will be games that take Lockheart as a base, Microsoft can't prevent that. But I expect most developers to develop for Series X first and then downgrade for Lockhart.
Why?
Most heavy expenders are going to be in Series X and PS5
Halo effect: People see the Series X version of the game and that makes it more probable that they will buy it even if they have Lockhart. Similar to in engine trailers. You use high quality footage as showcase and people will buy the game even if the actual game is severely downgraded.
We have several examples in this generation where One X versions of games are relatively much better than One S version. Eg Red Dead Redemption 2.
Lockhart will limit the scope of some games, but it won't be as bad as you make it. Specially if, as I hope, Lockhart sells less units than Series X and PS5.
demigod
Member
Andrew Yang? No, we don't do dudes.
LED Guy?
Banned
Let's hope soAbout ps5? No
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Meh, there are still few titles who can match this, animation wise we are still far from beign actually good, this is actually in the 1% frame of quality.
Yes, they are cutscenes, as there are cutscenes in Uncharted 4, yet you barely see the difference. Gameplay saw so far is insane too, go to the 2018 gameplay. Density and foliage movements are top tier.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Sounds nuts, but yesterday I was watching some Tekken 2 YT videos. I forget why but some reason. I was looking for King videos showing all those crazy crunching moves which then lead to other characters.
as blocky as those 1996 polygons were , the characters animated smooth with lots of variety.
CthulhuPL
Member
I can see why Sony is still waiting for the reveal. They simply don't need to show it now. Ghost of Tsushima looks phenomenal and kinda next gen already. Just wow. And I'm sure it will be fun game to play. GoT, TLoU2 and FF7 all in the near future... Sony waits for the dust to settle after this titles and then they will attack. And when they will attack we will not survive it (Gaf surely don't) Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I was referring to facial animations, my bad.
llien
Banned
Yeah. That works so well in PC world, chuckle.
This will increase the effort needed to develop for XSeX, which might force many studios to compromize PC gaming style.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
No worries.
In that case, ignore my post. Tekken 2 facial animations I think were either non existent, or so shit I don’t remember!
haha
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Raploz
Member
Let's talk about the SSDs a little bit. SSDs will be amazing next-gen but they won't solve all issues.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but reading this topic I noticed some people think pop-in will be completely eliminated on next-gen games because of the high speed SSDs, but that's not true.
As far as I know the reason for pop-in can be related to slow storage speed, but most of the time it's because devs are purposely trying to reduce the amount of objects on screen to save on performance.
Pop-in will be reduced and we'll probably won't have objects appearing 5 meters away, but it won't go away completely. Objects in the distance will still appear out of nowhere, and we'll still have LoD transitions.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but reading this topic I noticed some people think pop-in will be completely eliminated on next-gen games because of the high speed SSDs, but that's not true.
As far as I know the reason for pop-in can be related to slow storage speed, but most of the time it's because devs are purposely trying to reduce the amount of objects on screen to save on performance.
Pop-in will be reduced and we'll probably won't have objects appearing 5 meters away, but it won't go away completely. Objects in the distance will still appear out of nowhere, and we'll still have LoD transitions.
demigod
Member
Sony showing MS how preseason is done.
bitbydeath
Member
AMD Financials 2020 [OT] PS. 5 Goddamn Hours Long
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
SSD potential issues have been brought up before.Let's talk about the SSDs a little bit. SSDs will be amazing next-gen but they won't solve all issues.
I'm probably stating the obvious, but reading this topic I noticed some people think pop-in will be completely eliminated on next-gen games because of the high speed SSDs, but that's not true.
As far as I know the reason for pop-in can be related to slow storage speed, but most of the time it's because devs are purposely trying to reduce the amount of objects on screen to save on performance.
Pop-in will be reduced and we'll probably won't have objects appearing 5 meters away, but it won't go away completely. Objects in the distance will still appear out of nowhere, and we'll still have LoD transitions.
the key issue is what happens if you got most of your games on a standard external HDD because that 500gb - 1tb SSD is only big enough for so many games.
it came down to a few possibilities.
1. Your fucked. Go buy an external SSD
2. The system can somehow in real time or pre-game load game data from the external into the SSD so everything runs off the SSD
3. Things run off SSD get the perks. Games running off the HDD 5400rpm run like a game in current systems.
maybe there’s more possibilities.
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