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[Major_Key]

The crazy thing is before anything MS prefaces by saying "XSX, the most powerful console ever". Yet, being the most powerful console doesn't seem to be enough to give them the best performance and better looking games, so they need VRS which lowers detail, albeit with not much in terms of customization to improve the method than the standard VRS implementations we've seen.


So why is it so important for Richard and MS fans to declare VRS as their trump card this gen. Makes no sense, the console is already powerful enough on just bruteforce, According to ColtEastwood XSX should show a 40-50fps advantage over similar PS5 games....Is that because of this VRS sauce?

I think with deep VRS/Mesh Shaders integration you could have a games visually stunning at 60FPS if well Optimized.

I can see lot of games third party at 4K60FPS on XSX and 4K30FPS on PS5.

 

[thelastword]

30 FPS isn’t impressive in next gen systems. They told us this was the future of gaming and future games will only be more demanding in resources.

Did they say all games will be 60fps? Dirt on XSX is 120fps right, does it have RT? Is it not crossgen or even some of the 60fps games that were shown at MS's conference. You have to look at the visual makeup of the games with higher framerates. Though I think there will be many bonkers 60fps games. Many of the games you saw yesterday is from alpha footage, there's lots of work to be done, framerate and various modes are possibilities. They are not done or launched yet.

 

[SlimySnake]

you have a 10.2 tflops gpu with variable clocks running ratchet and horizon 2 at native 4k with ray tracing. does it really matter if it doesnt have vrs?

 

[Portugeezer]

It could be that these early games haven't bothered using it.

I don't know what more has to be said... AMD and Sony have confirmed RDNA2, so either RDNA2 has it or not, regardless of the name/implementation PS5 has. Or AMD/Sony are lying... but no reason to think that.

 

[Chiggs]

I think I'm going to create a YouTube Channel called: Neurosurgeon Foundry, where I discuss the modern techniques today's leading neurosurgeons are using on their patients. I'll be sure to fill my commentary with a ton of speculative nonsense that is derived from my asshole, and then I'll convince thousands of morons to support my wisdom and insight on Patreon, even though the $10 I'll ask for every month would be better spent on two and a half Beef 'n Cheddars at Arby's.

Granted, I have zero experience in neurosurgery, but I figure I can just read a few articles on beyondneurosurgery.com and then just parrot it out like a shithead, and since anybody viewing my channel is probably an even bigger shithead than me, I'll be just fine.

Speaking of shitheads, does anyone know of a skinny plank of wood I can dress in v-neck sweaters and tank tops? That will be my esteemed co-host.

 

[Major_Key]

you have a 10.2 tflops gpu with variable clocks running ratchet and horizon 2 at native 4k with ray tracing. does it really matter if it doesnt have vrs?

Ray tracing on "clank" in low res ?

Full scene RT with deeply pushed GI,Reflection,Shadows in high res is better

 

[thelastword]

I think with deep VRS/Mesh Shaders integration you could have a games visually stunning at 60FPS if well Optimized.

I can see lot of games third party at 4K60FPS on XSX and 4K30FPS on PS5.

The divide in GPU power does not prescribe to your optimism. That type of perf difference is more of a CPU related difference between Jaguars and Ryzen/Intel processors in a CPU heavy game. A 30fps uptick on XSX is a pipedream tbh, no disrespect if this is your genuine opinion tbh. But think of it, the PS5 GPU is clocked much faster and there are many custom cycles that offloads from the GPU and CPU on PS5.....You will see the benefits of each architecture when the games release, there is nothing close to that divide here...

 

[Gravemind]

Why can't we have a discussion around VRS and if it's usefulness and pertinent evidence around it's relevance in forthcoming consoles? And certainly don't try and prohibit it's discussion for others but if not interested yourself in the discussion, just don't join in? But certainly VRS has significance?

Oh well that's an easy one. Its because the PS5 apparently doesnt have it so now its trash and useless. If the PS5 doesnt have it, it must be trash, man.

Keep in mind these are the same guys that screamed in the next gen thread for 1000 pages about how Sony would implement it's own clone VRS technology into the PS5.

Now all of a sudden VRS doesnt matter lol

 

[TheAmazingSpiderMan]

Quote from the article - “while delivering the whole presentation via bandwidth-challenged, poor quality streaming at 1080p30 - a baffling decision when 4K media was (and is) available. Similar to the PS4 Pro livestream from 2016, it was difficult to fully appreciate everything Sony had to offer“

Not sure if Richard has been living under a rock for the past few months but I’m sure I read YouTube had restricted the bandwidth since the lockdown started as did many other social media sites.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

NO VRS = NO TRUE NEXT GEN!

 

[Lethal01]

you have a 10.2 tflops gpu with variable clocks running ratchet and horizon 2 at native 4k with ray tracing. does it really matter if it doesnt have vrs?

I mean it would be great tool to have in addition to everything else that said..

I didn't see anything exhibiting VRS in microsofts showcase soo.

 

[DeeDogg_]

Inb4 “graphics don’t matter haterz!!”

 

[thelastword]

NO VRS = NO TRUE NEXT GEN!

Where is that chalkboard?

So you are telling me Hardware Based RT is no longer the "TRUE NEXT GEN STANDARD"?

 

[Dory16]

The divide in GPU power does not prescribe to your optimism. That type of perf difference is more of a CPU related difference between Jaguars and Ryzen/Intel processors in a CPU heavy game. A 30fps uptick on XSX is a pipedream tbh, no disrespect if this is your genuine opinion tbh. But think of it, the PS5 GPU is clocked much faster and there are many custom cycles that offloads from the GPU and CPU on PS5.....You will see the benefits of each architecture when the games release, there is nothing close to that divide here...

Scorn, the Ascent, the Medium, Dirt 5 are all already committing to 4k60 when not outright 120 FPS while still in the alpha phase. There has to be a reason why they can confidently promise that so long before the games release and why we just had a 30 FPS stream yesterday with no info on the frame rates to expect.

 

[thelastword]

Scorn, the Ascent, the Medium, Dirt 5 are all already committing to 4k60 when not outright 120 FPS while still in the alpha phase. There has to be a reason why they can confidently promise that so long before the games release and why we just had a 30 FPS stream yesterday with no info on the frame rates to expect.

Because all these games will easily run at 120fps on PS5 as well.....

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Where is that chalkboard?

So you are telling me Hardware Based RT is no longer the "TRUE NEXT GEN STANDARD"?

No vrs is the only true next gen standard bearer !

 

[Dory16]

Because all these games will easily run at 120fps on PS5 as well.....

You’re mistaken. They won’t run on the ps5 at all, they’re all Xbox exclusives except for Dirt 5. If you’re claiming that Dirt 5 will run at 120 on the PS5, you should send Codemasters the memo because they’ve only mentioned 120 FPS on the XSX.
Why those games would run “easily” at 120 on the PS5 but not Sony’s own first party games, I won’t even ask the question. Stop trolling.

 

[Dr Bass]

Only the best multiplats, which make up the majority of game release.

There's this really big game called Halo Infinite launching on the XSX. And i'd wait before we see the MS 1st party main July E3 event before making dumb fanboy statements. Well known insider Shinobi says it will be a very good show full of big beautiful worlds, sci fy etc..

It was a joke. I'll almost surely be buying an XboxX.

 

[LordOfChaos]

The were also impressed overall and mentioned judicious use of ray tracing and the geometry engine.

Does the PS5 have VRS or not, it's a mild curiosity, but other RDNA2 features are on clear display, whether it's just not used in what we saw so far or they went with an alternative (GE), I'm not overly fussed, results are results.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

MS just touts whatever is exclusive to them regardless of how good it is

Amazing that the card manufacturers are ALSO touting the same features. So it must be they are ganging up on Sony now? Thats how your post reads. Sorry if im misinterpreting your tone.

 

[thelastword]

You’re mistaken. They won’t run on the ps5 at all, they’re all Xbox exclusives except for Dirt 5. If you’re claiming that Dirt 5 will run at 120 on the PS5, you should send Codemasters the memo because they’ve only mentioned 120 FPS on the XSX.
Why those games would run “easily” at 120 on the PS5 but not Sony’s own first party games, I won’t even ask the question. Stop trolling.

Dirt 5 will run at 120fps on a 5700XT, just wait till it releases. The other games you mentioned are not demanding like "the ascent", just wait till you see the games across lots of hardware for reference. All you saw was a non-ingame trailer of the medium. If Scorn can hit 120fps on XSX, it can hit it on PS5 as well...The divide is the lowest it's ever been between consoles...

 

[Quantum253]

It could be that these early games haven't bothered using it.

I don't know what more has to be said... AMD and Sony have confirmed RDNA2, so either RDNA2 has it or not, regardless of the name/implementation PS5 has. Or AMD/Sony are lying... but no reason to think that.

I believe your right. And AMD was saying that the "Big Navi" card should be the first RDNA 2 card to market. It won't be 1:1, to the consoles, but I imagine people can get a feeling for what vrs can do once the card is available.

 

[Venom Snake]

Ray tracing on "clank" in low res ?

Full scene RT with deeply pushed GI,Reflection,Shadows in high res is better

Yes, but i'd rather have that:

over, let's say, that:

 

[rnlval]

Ouch if true. VRS is a great feature of next-gen PC GPUs since 2018.

From https://www.tomsguide.com/news/firs...may-be-revealed-today-with-forza-motorsport-8

Forza Horizon 4
The demo show will reportedly continue with Forza Horizon 4. Here we will see how variable rate shading works on the Xbox Series X. VRS is a technique that allows the GPU to boost detail and quality in complex parts of the images while lowering its power needs in simpler areas.
The reasoning behind VRS is that our eyes and brain can’t focus on the totality of an image. If you are paying attention to the screen, your eyes will be focused on where the action is, which typically is the more complex part of the image. The graphics engine doesn’t have to spend so much power on the less complex, peripherals parts of the image. That results in power optimization that allows to boost detail even more or increase the frame rate.
The results? Playground Games — who develop the Forza Horizon series — added VRS to Forza Horizon 4 when it received its Xbox Series X development kits in December. That increased the frame rate in the game by a whooping 32% with “no optimizations, just using VRS in parts with motion blur.” According to the redditor, “VRS changes the way they design games (VRS as motion blur replacement),” pointing out that the” lead engineer says they can reach 4K/120 today on XSX thanks to RDNA2 architecture and the combined effort of AMD and Microsoft.”
Yeah, 4K and 120 frames per second.

Swapping FH4's blur motion into VRS version enables XSX's FH4 to reach 120 fps 4K.

If VRS improves the frame rate by 32 percent which yields 120 fps 4K, then non-VRS version would be 81.6 fps 4K,

 

[Dory16]

Dirt 5 will run at 120fps on a 5700XT, just wait till it releases. The other games you mentioned are not demanding like "the ascent", just wait till you see the games across lots of hardware for reference. All you saw was a non-ingame trailer of the medium. If Scorn can hit 120fps on XSX, it can hit it on PS5 as well...The divide is the lowest it's ever been between consoles...

So I should wait for the multiplatform games to release before I comment but you won’t wait for anything before claiming that the divide is negligible. Got you.
The truth is Sony could have easily mentioned the performance of the games they demoed yesterday and didn’t, not for a single one. For all the flak that the MS 3rd party showing got, everyone knew at the end what performance features to expect of each the games demoed (a table was released with all the info so we don’t have to speculate). Digital Foundry won’t be as secretive when the games release and this thread is a good preview of what will happen once the secrecy is broken.

 

[Dory16]

Yes, but i'd rather have that:

over, let's say, that:

I didnt think that full ray tracing would be made fun of this early into the gen.

Its not like a Chris Gradell didn’t have his LinkedIn history and entire professional credibility thrown to the wolves just for predicting that the PS5 wouldn’t be able to do it.

 

[Thugnificient]

E eastwood333 Still waiting on that source for Hellblade 2 using VRS.

Before you say it, the DF video makes no mention of it.

 

[seanoff]

I can’t see how anyone can tell anything about what an engine/chipset is doing by looking at video.

if it’s rendering triangles you can’t see You can’t see them so how do you know they’re being rendered.

if they are being culled, once again, without access to what is happening in the code/hardware. How the fuck can you tell that.

if they aren’t visible it’s speculation what has happened or not and when it happened or didn’t happen. You’d have to talk to the engine devs and ask them. Other than that
I’d take this with a lot of salt.

also rdna2 has vrs and hw accelerated rt as part of the spec AMD have said the ps5 is running rdna2 So I’d be shocked if it was missing and amd sold Sony rdna 1.85433 or if cerny went, nah fuck that noise.

 

[rnlval]

No, primitive shaders on PS5 is the equivalent of mesh shaders on XSX. The Geometry engine is what does all the work, the cache scrubbers frees up even more performance....which is the whole point of VRS. Perf.

Cache scrubbers are not related to Variable Rate Shading.

Nah I’m talking about FP16, which at this point everything supports but is not often used, or VRS. FP 16 is literally doing the maths at half rate, VRS, as the name implies, at work at any rate, even less than half rate, but it’s the rate of the shaders, not the rate of the maths being done

Rapid Pack Math FP16's two FP16 in place of single FP32. Variable Rate Shading = shading resolution can change following geometry edges.

 

[Andodalf]

From https://www.tomsguide.com/news/firs...may-be-revealed-today-with-forza-motorsport-8


Swapping FH4's blur motion into VRS version enables XSX's FH4 to reach 120 fps 4K.

If VRS improves the frame rate by 32 percent which yields 120 fps 4K, then non-VRS version would be 81.6 fps 4K,

4k 120 sounds like a pipe dream, but benchmarks do show a 2080 having framerates in the mid 80s, so with VRS it could be a possibility. Wow.

I can’t see how anyone can tell anything about what an engine/chipset is doing by looking at video.

if it’s rendering triangles you can’t see You can’t see them so how do you know they’re being rendered.

if they are being culled, once again, without access to what is happening in the code/hardware. How the fuck can you tell that.

if they aren’t visible it’s speculation what has happened or not and when it happened or didn’t happen. You’d have to talk to the engine devs and ask them. Other than that
I’d take this with a lot of salt.

VRS has nothing to do with culling triangles. It’s literally about shading things in larger Chunks. If you zoom in you can count and see it being per pixel shading, or per 4 pixels, or what have you. I think you’re thinking of mesh shading. VRS is only invisible If it’s off.

Rapid Pack Math FP16's two FP16 in place of single FP32.

Yes, so you can do twice as much at half the precision, which of course only works on things that can be done acceptably at half precision

 

[The Alien]

Interesting if true the Delta between the two consoles is going to be even bigger than we thought. The XsX is going to punch way above it's weight with VRS and machine learning.

Agreed....and considering its throwing around a lot of weight to begin with, end result could be something pretty special.

 

[Trueblakjedi]

Why would you use VRS when you have a smarter tech? Engines optimized for PS5 will rather have expected, locked polygon count per frame. That UE5 demo was doing an overkill with 20 million per frame, 4.7 polygons per pixel per frame! More than 800 million polygons per second (averaging in the 40's fps for solid 30fps). And to put it down to 1 polygon per pixel per frame that'll scale down to 8.5 million polygons per frame for native 4K.

LMAO

This demo is from 2018:






Its the Asteroids Mesh Shader demo. 3 TRILLION LOD tris with 50+ Million onscreen triangles.
Its a demo of the impact HW mesh shaders has on poly rendering.

The UE5 demo was a software raster based implementation relying on prim shaders not even mesh shaders to get to 1440/30... in 2020.

It looked great honestly but I don't think you can hang your hat on that as some indicator of "smart tech."

Imagine the same engine not having to rely on software but rather having the might of more advanced HW to accelerate its hardware routines.

Think in trillions of polygons and multiple tens of millions of polys on screen.

 

[WouldYouKindly]

I fuckimg hate digital foundry. The bias that website shows to xbox is honestly pathetic at this point.

 

[Venom Snake]

I didnt think that full ray tracing would be made fun of this early into the gen.

Its not like a Chris Gradell didn’t have his LinkedIn history and entire professional credibility thrown to the wolves just for predicting that the PS5 wouldn’t be able to do it.

To be honest, I never expected full RT to be available on PS5, at least not at 4k.
Still, i wouldn't want Clank to look like an office trash can but thats a subjective thing.

 

[Three]

Geometry engine is the RDNA2 mesh shaders and stuff, VRS is separate from that. Be hopes they have it anyway because it gives about a 25% saving in GPU rendering for no real perceived image quality loss.

If it's "no perceived image quality loss" then surely they wouldn't spot it even if they tried. The truth is that VRS gives you quality loss and its absence is surely a good thing. What they should be asking is did the games look worse or run at lower framerate due to its absence.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

DF eating good thx to MS!

 

[DForce]

If the games hit Native 4K, then that means they don't need it.

Sony still has some announced features for the PS5.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

LMAO

This demo is from 2018:






Its the Asteroids Mesh Shader demo. 3 TRILLION LOD tris with 50+ Million onscreen triangles.
Its a demo of the impact HW mesh shaders has on poly rendering.

The UE5 demo was a software raster based implementation relying on prim shaders not even mesh shaders to get to 1440/30... in 2020.

It looked great honestly but I don't think you can hang your hat on that as some indicator of "smart tech."

Imagine the same engine not having to rely on software but rather having the might of more advanced HW to accelerate its hardware routines.

Think in trillions of polygons and multiple tens of millions of polys on screen.

Wasteful tech then, still using LOD's, 8 LOD's, wasteful game storage. Unlike Nanite that's dealing with single model but acting per frame shown instead.

You don't understand, but continue laughing your ass out.

 

[Neo_game]

RDNA2 supports VRS so both console should have this feature. Let us see a multiplat game where devs uses it then we can know the difference in performance

 

[Craig of War]

DF eating good thx to MS!

Do people actually believe DF are MS shell far as i can tell DF are unbiased and tell it like it is straight down the middle i mean they actually run test on these things unlike other channels who just talks about it with no test done whatsoever.

 

[Infamy v1]

So DF are bad guys again? I cant keep track anymore.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

So DF are bad guys again? I cant keep track anymore.

Alex is, senior member of XboxEra Discord FUD cult. The rest try to be neutral and hide the bias although funded by MS.

 

[VCL]

Edit

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Edit

Nice FUD, don't edit.

 

[onQ123]

Wouldn't the goal be for no one to notice it?

 

[Leonidas]

Don't worry Sony fans, a Resetera mod confirmed VRS for PS5 months ago

 

[Bryank75]

Degrading the image is a stupid idea.... no matter if it's close to the edges or not.

 

[TUROK]

If it's "no perceived image quality loss" then surely they wouldn't spot it even if they tried. The truth is that VRS gives you quality loss and its absence is surely a good thing. What they should be asking is did the games look worse or run at lower framerate due to its absence.

Perceived in the sense that you don't notice it during regular gameplay, not when you're pausing and zooming and deliberately looking for it.

It's not a magic algorithm.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Do people actually believe DF are MS shell far as i can tell DF are unbiased and tell it like it is straight down the middle i mean they actually run test on these things unlike other channels who just talks about it with no test done whatsoever.

Yeah well when one of the DF guys are members of an Xbox discord group responsible for spreading FUD, then their credibilty can surely be questioned, no ?

DF does good work. I just dont trust Alex as part of that team. Richard and John are good.

 

[Chiggs]

So DF are bad guys again? I cant keep track anymore.

They were never good, actually.