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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I think the prices will be $349 and $399 for 2 different models with sony taking a small loss.

Would be great, but I don't see Sony taking a loss with this.
 

Maxrunner

Member
An APU is a combination CPU & GPU on the same die afaik (for general computing and more). People here are asking whether the PS4 will have an APU alongside another discrete GPU for actual utilization in games as opposed to other multimedia and OS function being tied to APU alone.

Isnt the Wiiu using something similar? it seems it has at least the gpu and the cpu under the same sink, or am i wrong?
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I'm a bit conflicted. Extending this gen means no games like BF4, Watch Dogs, Crysis 3 and what not on ultra setting graphics for the consoles. But I currently have a lot of fun with the Ps3 and I will surely pick up Rising, DmC, Ni No Kuni, Tomb Raider and thats just for Q1.

When Ps4 is reality you can be very certain that Ps3 support will die quickly. Ps2 is still around, but it actually didn't get many relevant games once 2006 was done for. FFXII and GoW2 were its swan songs I think.
 

Piggus

Member
M°°nblade;44759353 said:
My 60GB PS3 went GROD last week so I baked the motherboard in the oven (works fine now by the way).

Taking my PS3 apart, I was impressed by it's overall complexity. The case, the number of components, heat sink, the custom shock&thermal pads. Dissembling it took me more than an hour. Must have cost sony a fortune to to produce.

It's a pity I accidentally destroyed the bluray-motherboard connector and with it, it's ability to run anything from the drive, including PS2 games.

Reflowing it (baking it lol) is a temporary fix, so be warned. The problem is Sony and MS use really cheap lead-free solder on the BGAs. After continuous heating and cooling, the solder can crack and separate from the motherboard when the board warps under heat. Reflowing actually weakens the solder further. The only way to fix it is to have the system re-balled. That is, replace the BGA solder balls with higher quality leaded solder.

Did you break the clamp off of the ribbon cable? that can be fixed.
 

-COOLIO-

The Everyman
There is no need for PS4 release in 2013.

For the first half they have
God of War Ascension
Sly
DmC
LittleBigPlanet Karting
Nino Kuni
Dead Space 3
MGS Revengeance
Aliens Colonial Marines
Lost Planet 3
Splinter Cell Blacklist
Crysis 3
Beyond
Army of Two
GTA5
Bioshock Infinite
Tomb Raider
Metro Last Light
Anarchy Reigns


For the 2nd half they have
Puppeteer
Dragon Age 3
COD
The Last of Us
Castlevania Lord of Shadow 2
Last Guardian (lol)
FF Versus XIII (lol)
MGS Ground Zeros


Personally I am not going to get a PS4 until the slim/price drop. Got too much of a backlog of games as it is. I did the same with PS3.

conversly theyre are shallow gamers like myself who arnt excited for any of those games because theyre 2012 fugly

edit: ground zeros is 2013!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!?!?!!?!?
 
I'm a bit conflicted. Extending this gen means no games like BF4, Watch Dogs, Crysis 3 and what not on ultra setting graphics for the consoles. But I currently have a lot of fun with the Ps3 and I will surely pick up Rising, DmC, Ni No Kuni, Tomb Raider and thats just for Q1.

When Ps4 is reality you can be very certain that Ps3 support will die quickly. Ps2 is still around, but it actually didn't get many relevant games once 2006 was done for. FFXII and GoW2 were its swan songs I think.

Actually PS2 had its better years after PS3 launch, it went out with a bang. All SMT games+Okami and a bunch of other post ps3 launch ps2 games.
 
Yeah I guess there's the slim chance this could be true. However as gofreak already pointed out, you don't stick unrefined tech in a console where cost is a concern.

28nm chips are being made today, but Nintendo chose to go with 45/~40nm process for the Wii-U because it was cheaper. This is why we'll likely see 28nm next gen, but not 22nm or anything else like what Jeff is going on about.
You are right, Nintendo chose a cheaper older GPU design that was available ONLY in 40nm. We are assuming Sony is going with a design only available at 28nm but if it's part of the 20nm 2014 designs then it may only be available @ 20nm NOT 28 or 32 or 40. 20nm is cheaper if % yields are the same, are they? Will they be the same in 3 months or 6 months, if they will be then it may be worth going with the 20nm node as that appears to be the GloFlo and TSMC node plane for 3 years.

It really depends on how custom and what building blocks are used. We know Jaguar CPU package are available @ 28nm, will be available at 20nm but not 32nm.

If the APU, second GPU and common stacked wide IO memory are going to be on the same MCM transposer/carrier then the design is either custom or from a future design. If custom then Sony will bear the brunt of the refresh cost, if a AMD building block then AMD pays and Sony can just order a new custom SoC from AMD built with those new blocks.

Why does it have to be full HSA? Why will it use wide I/O?*

*hopes for a real reply and not a wall of text with links and bolded lines.
AMD is betting the farm on HSA and needs game consoles to jump start the industry. They need HSA accepted so that their Fusion designs can compete with Intel. Without properly written programs taking advantage of AMD GPGPU, AMD APUs can't compete with Intel CPUs. Wide IO because it will be faster, cheaper, require less drive current (DDR4) and less energy.
 

onQ123

Member
Isnt the Wiiu using something similar? it seems it has at least the gpu and the cpu under the same sink, or am i wrong?


______________________________________________________________________


a APU place everything together so the CPU & GPU can work together better & it's cheaper than having a CPU & GPU on different chips but it limits the GPU memory speed to the speed of the CPU ram sticks, so it's making things cheaper but it's not giving your CPU the power & speed of a GPU.

a GPGPU is giving your powerful GPU with the speed of it's embedded ram the capability to do CPU task much faster than a CPU.


_________________________________________________________________________







I kinda explained this a year ago in my GPGPU thread (which I hoped people who are more informed about the subject would have posted more info in the thread to help the rest of us understand the benefits of APUs & GPGPUs in consoles)
 

SkylineRKR

Member
Actually PS2 had its better years after PS3 launch, it went out with a bang. All SMT games+Okami and a bunch of other post ps3 launch ps2 games.

I don't remember. SMT was pre Ps3 I think, well perhaps not if its about EU localizations. Okami was 2006 I think.

Perhaps Valkyrie Profile 2 was the last game I bought. And it was good.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Dreaming big? To use stacked DDR4 ram requires a future design!

Over reacting much?

Stacking is not some science fiction thing, companies are doing it right now while they are preparing for mass market push of this tech. Heck, Vita is using vertical stacking for connecting SoC and video ram.
 

KageMaru

Member
You are right, Nintendo chose a cheaper older GPU design that was available ONLY in 40nm. We are assuming Sony is going with a design only available at 28nm but if it's part of the 20nm 2014 designs then it may only be available @ 20nm NOT 28 or 32 or 40. 20nm is cheaper if % yields are the same, are they? Will they be the same in 3 months or 6 months, if they will be then it may be worth going with the 20nm node as that appears to be the GloFlo and TSMC node plane for 3 years.

The first part of this post is a contradiction. How can something be a choice if that were the only size available? They could have tried to go smaller if they wanted, but it would have cost more. It's the same reason why we don't see the CPU or GPU smaller than 45nm in the 360.

Which leads me to my next point, yields for 20nm wouldn't be the same, so the cost would not be the same. This is the exact reason why I'm telling you these next gen systems will launch at 28nm and no smaller. Look at the issues companies had reaching 28nm, and you think 20nm would be easily reached at the same cost? Not going to happen and if ban bets were still honored, I would bet you any day of the week.

It really depends on how custom and what building blocks are used. We know Jaguar CPU package are available @ 28nm, will be available at 20nm but not 32nm.

I don't even know the point of this part. All it does is support my view that 28nm will be standard at the launch of next gen.

If the APU, second GPU and common stacked wide IO memory are going to be on the same MCM transposer/carrier then the design is either custom or from a future design. If custom then Sony will bear the brunt of the refresh cost, if a AMD building block then AMD pays and Sony can just order a new custom SoC from AMD built with those new blocks.

It doesn't really work that way. You think Sony is in any position to bear any brunt? Also, AMD is in this business to make money, not pay out of their pocket for Sony's or MS' design. If this is how you think console development is, then you're way off.

AMD is betting the farm on HSA and needs game consoles to jump start the industry. They need HSA accepted so that their Fusion designs can compete with Intel. Without properly written programs taking advantage of AMD GPGPU, AMD APUs can't compete with Intel CPUs. Wide IO because it will be faster, cheaper, require less drive current (DDR4) and less energy.

Intel is so far ahead of AMD there's very little they can do to really compete with them. Staying in the market is what they should be fighting for and I fail to see how consoles would really help out there.

Edit:

Over reacting much?

Stacking is not some science fiction thing, companies are doing it right now while they are preparing for mass market push of this tech. Heck, Vita is using vertical stacking for connecting SoC and video ram.

Yes, but we don't compare handhelds to consoles in hardware design.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I think the prices will be $349 and $399 for 2 different models with sony taking a small loss.
$449 & $499 is more realistic, maybe higher
based on the $600 PS3 price which translated to 425 pounds here I doubt the PS4 will be 249 pounds for the premium model.
I reckon a £299 for base (god ol PSX/PS2 launch price) & a £349 for the premium
 
Lot of prices being chucked about; how significantly would these be affected if Sony went 'Bring Your Own Storage'?
I mean they're not going to have 'installs' are they?

(I still can't believe installs fucking exist)
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Lot of prices being chucked about; how significantly would these be affected if Sony went 'Bring Your Own Storage'?
I mean they're not going to have 'installs' are they?

(I still can't believe installs fucking exist)
I don't think would effect it, look at the price of the Wii U & the max is 32gb, I wish could bring my own storage lol
 
Haha what do you mean by this man, the ps3 force installs, or the 360 optionals? Or something I'm missing. Got confused on the context of this comment sorry.

Forced installs. Its so backwards to me :D
I do like optional though; I had a dog tag in GoW that when I went to it the game crashed, disc problem I think - installed it and went and got that dog tag :D

Orange Box I fixed issues with too.

But yeah force installs just seem mental; I know people are probably used to them; but yeah.
 
Everything what reduces load times in the long run is something I want. Forced install - no problem but let me do something else in the meantime and don't lock the whole system.
 
Forced installs. Its so backwards to me :D
I do like optional though; I had a dog tag in GoW that when I went to it the game crashed, disc problem I think - installed it and went and got that dog tag :D

Orange Box I fixed issues with too.

But yeah force installs just seem mental; I know people are probably used to them; but yeah.

The only reason the PS3 had mandatory installs was due to the bluray read speed. I'm pretty sure we're not going to have these on the PS4.
 
Forced installs. Its so backwards to me :D
I do like optional though; I had a dog tag in GoW that when I went to it the game crashed, disc problem I think - installed it and went and got that dog tag :D

Orange Box I fixed issues with too.

But yeah force installs just seem mental; I know people are probably used to them; but yeah.

Hahah, ok, I thought it was the other way round for a second when I read that, had to think I was wrong and check lol. Yea, totally agree, to all of that. Really do hope sony give us the option for the optional installs next time, this has to be a serious factor in why I go to 360 for my third party games.

I actually stuck MGS4 in for the first time since my original ps3 died in 2010 today and saw there was an option for full install of the chapter data now...not sure if that pleases me more than before, or the fact I sat for so long and it really wasn't just a full disc install, it was like a gig. That stuff drives me nuts.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Not likely since it hasn't even hit mass production yet,i thnk.I think sony will go with GDDR5.

XDR was never a mass produced memory. And DDR4 maybe more expensive for the first year relative to DDR3, but then will likely be cheaper from then on.
 

jaosobno

Member
Not likely since it hasn't even hit mass production yet,i thnk.I think sony will go with GDDR5.

I prefer GDDR5 over DDR4. No way DDR4 bandwidth can keep up with GDDR5 and we all know consoles love their bandwidth. Perhaps split pool of DDR4+GDDR5 is possible, although I would prefer to see GDDR5 unified memory pool for PS4 (in order to avoid Skyrim situations late in next gen).
 

i-Lo

Member
I prefer GDDR5 over DDR4. No way DDR4 bandwidth can keep up with GDDR5 and we all know consoles love their bandwidth. Perhaps split pool of DDR4+GDDR5 is possible, although I would prefer to see GDDR5 unified memory pool for PS4 (in order to avoid Skyrim situations late in next gen).

A split configuration is possible (DDR3/DDR4 + GDDR5) but highly unlikely. If it were I'd say the split would be 2+2 or 4+2 or 6+2 respectively.

In case of unified memory, it would very expensive to have either 4GB and especially 8GB of GDDR5. I don't know see it happening unless MS and Sony have struck a bargain with manufacturer for special rates. DDR4 consumes about half as much power as DDR3 means it'll also run cooler. At the same time, iirc, has about double the bandwidth. DDR4 would be best fit for unified structure. It's a matter of logistics and ensuring that the manufacturing volume at a negotiated price can be made reality to keep to Sony's schedule.

At the worst end of it all, DDR3 is the likeliest of candidates.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
So what are the chances of Sony doing a $500+ model with PS3 BC? I'd pay over $600 just to have a machine that plays PS1, PS2, PS3 & PS4 games. One box to rule them all?
 
Is it ok to dream of XDR 2 for the PS4? :(

Okay but certainly not very realistic. Even if cost wouldn't be an issue availability is the big unknown factor. 4GB 256Bit GDDR5 or 4GB 384Bit DDR4 is my guess - Sony prefers high bandwith but might need to cut some costs in the long run.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
They would want to decrease the costs as much as possible from the launch itself.

I'm looking at the long game. Expensive for the first year and then cheaper for the next 9.

Look at pricing of DDR2/DDR3 now and the same will likely happen with DDR3/DDR4.

GDDR5 is good but it uses lots of power and isn't it overdue to be replaced?
 

Sid

Member
I'm looking at the long game. Expensive for the first year and then cheaper for the next 9.

Look at pricing of DDR2/DDR3 now and the same will likely happen with DDR3/DDR4.

GDDR5 is good but it uses lots of power and isn't it overdue to be replaced?
IDK,what abut the availability of DDR4?
 

StevieP

Banned
Can we expect DDR4 for the Orbis ?

Not likely since it hasn't even hit mass production yet,i thnk.I think sony will go with GDDR5.

There are 2 schools of thought on this one. If you want fast memory (such as GDDR5) you will have less of it. The current "cap" of common sense for that would be 2GB, with any more going to cost prohibitively and complicate the design, which complicates future cost reduction.

FYI, Microsoft currently has 12GB of DDR3 in their dev kits (of which the final console will have 8GB - some will be reserved). Feasibly they could replace this with DDR4 in the final console, since DDR4 is basically similar to DDR3 but running a bit faster and a bit cooler, but DDR4 is not out yet.

Sony's original "target spec" sheet indicated a 4-core steamroller CPU and 2GB of GDDR5. There have been many rumours that say the Steamrollers have changed to Jaguars, and I would bet that Sony's taken a look at Microsoft's larger amount of slower memory and said "well that could fuck us for ports... how bout we do the same thing? DDR3 for now, maybe DDR4 later"
 

patsu

Member
Sony, lean closer to Apple. You have exclusive content and services (Studios and Gaikai) that Samsung and MS don't have. Every Android company tries to distant itself from Apple. But if you can be the only Android hardware provider that work well with Apple (and Sony) products, then you will stand out from the crowd.

Hardware differences are not so important these days, especially chip choice. The system design and ecosystem are more important.
 
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