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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer

eastmen

Banned
Do we have any idea of the thermal envelope of the steamroller vs jaguar?

If it is significantly higher than jaguar and we're talking a closer to 200 watt system then I can't see Sony doing that TBH.

For one thing the launch PS3's cooling system probably cost Sony $30 alone. I think Sony will be slightly conservative for PS4 (150 watt or under)

Though I'm still not 100% sure if Sony will take another gamble and go slightly balls out with power. Hopefully more starts leaking soon.

The current bulldozer/piledriver chips are on 32nm . We should see GF with 22nm early next year. So they should run quite cool. Remember the old i7 920s were 32nm and when we got sandy bridge on 22nm we got huge power savings while increasing performance. The same thing should happen with AMD when they move down to 22nm .

The ps3 and xbox 360 were close to 200watts when playing a game. I suspect next gen consoles will be around that power envelope . Just like with the last round of consoles they will go through many micron drops and power and heat production will go down.

There are also better cooling options out there. The xbox 360 slim vs the xbox 360 cooling is drasticly improved even while the TDP has gone down. The same with the ps3 .

Remember Piledriver goes from trinity which is a dual core with gpu at 17 watts all the way up to a 4ghz 4 core monster at a 125w TDP .

Jaguar will go from 3-5w to 35w depending on core counts and clock speed with its own gpu. Bobcat cores use roughly 1w. I expect jaguar cores to use the same. So for a quad core your looking at 4w for just the cpu. But performance is really bad


This is the dual core brazos at 1.6ghz. It uses bobcat cores which the jaguar cores will replace

34103.png



http://www.anandtech.com/show/4023/the-brazos-performance-preview-amd-e350-benchmarked/3

There is a bunch more but looking at the charts its stays pretty close to an Athlon x2 3250e . That's a chip released in 2009 and the Athlon x2s were released in what 2005 . So its quite poor performance. I doubt Sony would use these chips as it will clearly mark the limitations of the system there. If the Durango rumors of a power 7 chip are true there would be no competition.
 

eastmen

Banned
If amd still exists they will put out steamroller. what else will they do ? Give up the little market share they have there ?
 

Ashes

Banned
This is the dual core brazos at 1.6ghz. It uses bobcat cores which the jaguar cores will replace

There is a bunch more but looking at the charts its stays pretty close to an Athlon x2 3250e . That's a chip released in 2009 and the Athlon x2s were released in what 2005 . So its quite poor performance. I doubt Sony would use these chips as it will clearly mark the limitations of the system there. If the Durango rumors of a power 7 chip are true there would be no competition.

Am I missing something here? Why are we talking about brazos benchmarks? I thought that brazos competes with intel atom? That's an entirely different market sector.

AMD A10 out now is this one:

And we're talking a generational improvement over that. Or am I wrong?

edit:

anadtech sourced benechmarks if you want that:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6347/amd-a10-5800k-a8-5600k-review-trinity-on-the-desktop-part-2
 

Router

Hopsiah the Kanga-Jew
1080p/60fps is no doubt the goal. I'm interested to see if we can get a decent 3D solution for the next gen too. 720p/30fps would be great. the horrid resolution in 3D kills it for this generation. 3D on a decent PC is great.

I also see 3D being far more important than 4k support.
 

Globox_82

Banned
Santa Monica Studio >>>>All. GOW3 is still the best graphically and seamless PS3 game.

yeah but they are slow. One game so far. I know about side projects ala Starhawk but I don't count those. And yes I know now they have two studios, but in all seriousness they should have done that a long time ago. PS is not much better either.
ND is the shit when it comes to Sony first party.
 

Rubius

Member

dgrdsv

Member
SW1313 and Agni show us that their scope and detail of the environments is much much higher than in currentgen games. I expect generational shift in all areas, not only bonuses that come from higher resolution and access to larger pool of "texture" ram.
Agni is a tech demo, I'll be very happy if next gen will reach such graphics fidelity in gameplay scenes but I'm not counting on it. SW1313 is exactly what I'm saying - mostly the same level of graphics as Uncharted 3 plus better textures. Also I have my doubts that it'll run in 1080p anywhere but on PC.
 
yeah but they are slow. One game so far. I know about side projects ala Starhawk but I don't count those. And yes I know now they have two studios, but in all seriousness they should have done that a long time ago. PS is not much better either.
ND is the shit when it comes to Sony first party.

Slow? SMS helps everyone! Journey, Starhawk, etc..... And they have another game coming up that will set a new graphical benchmark.
 
Agni is a tech demo, I'll be very happy if next gen will reach such graphics fidelity in gameplay scenes but I'm not counting on it. SW1313 is exactly what I'm saying - mostly the same level of graphics as Uncharted 3 plus better textures. Also I have my doubts that it'll run in 1080p anywhere but on PC.

Did they say how long it took to create?

There was a video showing off the tech where they swung the camera away from what was being filmed in the outdoor village scenes and it was like seeing the Death Star hanging from string. It literally was nothing.

Which makes sense, but if it took a long time to create just those few (incomplete) environments, colour me concerned.
 

RiverBed

Banned
The notion of 'HD remakes' of older games never crossed my mind, and I am impressed by some of the results. What are the likelihood of seeing similar 'upgrades' of current gen games on next gen (even if they don't appear early on in next-gen's life cycle)?
 
The notion of 'HD remakes' of older games never crossed my mind, and I am impressed by some of the results. What are the likelihood of seeing similar 'upgrades' of current gen games on next gen (even if they don't appear in early on in the next-gen life cycle)?

It's pretty amazing how much art assets can mared by things like resolution and IQ. I've been playing my PS2 games on my PC, currently playing FFX supersampled down to 1080p with a widescreen hack enabled, and I'm blown away how much detail they put into the game that the PS2 natively couldn't showcase.
 
So wait, the A10 is below a normal i5? What.

A generational improvement above the A10 would easily put it on par with the i5 and then some. Even the current A10 is fairly close in performance to the i5.

The i5 is an absolute beast of a CPU. And keep in mind this is the desktop class i5, a cpu capable of editing 4k videos and rendering computer animation without skipping a beat.

If the PS4 cpu is comparable to an i5, that's more than sufficient for any CPU related gaming tasks needed.

What we need to worry about is the GPU as that will have a lot more impact on how games actually look. Lets hope Sony picks the absolute most beastily GPU they can afford to (hoping for an 8870 equivalent atleast).
 

Neo 007

Member
1080p/60fps is no doubt the goal. I'm interested to see if we can get a decent 3D solution for the next gen too. 720p/30fps would be great. the horrid resolution in 3D kills it for this generation. 3D on a decent PC is great.

I also see 3D being far more important than 4k support.

I see it the totally opposite.
3D is nothing more that a fad that projects things at you either in background or in front ( usually the wrong way).

4K has the resolution to make you think its 3D correctly.
 

Soi-Fong

Member
A generational improvement above the A10 would easily put it on par with the i5 and then some. Even the current A10 is fairly close in performance to the i5.

The i5 is an absolute beast of a CPU. And keep in mind this is the desktop class i5, a cpu capable of editing 4k videos and rendering computer animation without skipping a beat.

If the PS4 cpu is comparable to an i5, that's more than sufficient for any CPU related gaming tasks needed.

What we need to worry about is the GPU as that will have a lot more impact on how games actually look. Lets hope Sony picks the absolute most beastily GPU they can afford to (hoping for an 8870 equivalent atleast).

The 8000 series isn't even out yet. Think you meant a 7870.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Did they say how long it took to create?

There was a video showing off the tech where they swung the camera away from what was being filmed in the outdoor village scenes and it was like seeing the Death Star hanging from string. It literally was nothing.

Which makes sense, but if it took a long time to create just those few (incomplete) environments, colour me concerned.

Visual Works first created first few passess of CGI sequence, and then Crystal Engine guys took their files and started testing the ways of making that CGI animation run in realtime. Because of that, everything was highly unoptimized and environment was unfinished.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
The PS4 is not out yet either.
They should be counting with that, waiting for the release of the 8000 series to coincide for the PS4 release

It's risky to bank on unproven technology when you're intending to ramp for mass manufacturing in a short period of time.

They're likely to be targeting something they know they can have ready.

IIRC, Stephen Colbert was hoping for a PowerVR6 series in Vita...which was fine to hope for, but it wasn't very realistic or likely :p Ditto, I would say, for an 8 series based chip. Anyway, I would be FAR less concerned with what series the chip is closest to than its performance.
 

Reiko

Banned
Agni is a tech demo, I'll be very happy if next gen will reach such graphics fidelity in gameplay scenes but I'm not counting on it. SW1313 is exactly what I'm saying - mostly the same level of graphics as Uncharted 3 plus better textures. Also I have my doubts that it'll run in 1080p anywhere but on PC.

UC3 is not even close dude...
 

Raonak

Banned
yeah but they are slow. One game so far. I know about side projects ala Starhawk but I don't count those. And yes I know now they have two studios, but in all seriousness they should have done that a long time ago. PS is not much better either.
ND is the shit when it comes to Sony first party.


Actually, they're not that far behind, since you have to remember SSM was still working on GOW2 when ND were working on U1.

ND finished GOW in 2005 and since then released...
U1 - 2007
U2 - 2009
U3 - 2011
TLOU - 2013

SSM finished GOW in 2005 and since then released...
GOWII - 2007
GOWIII - 2010
GOWA - 2013


ND made 4 games in 8 years, while SSM has made 3 games in 8 years. ND have 2 teams now too. while SSM has to help out a bunch of other studios with their games.

Team Ico finished STOC in 2005 and since then released...

...
 
My guess is SW 1313 won't release until 2014 and by then who knows what kind of advancements they've made on the technology.

2014 sounds right to me.
One consoles launch title and another ones second wave would be a fantastic position to set yourself in.

Agni is a tech demo, I'll be very happy if next gen will reach such graphics fidelity in gameplay scenes but I'm not counting on it. SW1313 is exactly what I'm saying - mostly the same level of graphics as Uncharted 3 plus better textures. Also I have my doubts that it'll run in 1080p anywhere but on PC.

Just to talk about this a bit. 1313 certainly wasn't all that impressive. Visually it was nice though; the shadows looked great but we have to remember were not going from PS2 to PS3 any more; HD brought a level of image quality that benefited gameplay as suddenly what was happening on screen was far more identifiable and more could be shown. There was just a level of detail that really mattered.

Am not sure we'll see the same jump with these games. Its going to be about removing the constraints on games. That demo didn't show a lot off in this regard. But seriously games at the moment have pretty big trade offs. This will reduce that and allow more creativity; better look overall (especially textures, but they'll still be far from perfect am afraid); and just being able to calculate more of what is going on in real time. Things will feel more real and reactive.


Now on that demo (and all the demos at E3)...they were based on art styles that have been used far too much over this last gen. Its gotten stale; everything looks the same and follows the same idea of lighting. Theres a lack of real flare/imagination. You know what every image is suggesting because you've seen it all before.

That needs to be shaken up next gen to really interest me.
Something like The Wonderful 101 interests me far more than any of those tech demos. They were dull and more of the same, the extra power was not being utilised to show anything; or do anything differently.

Watch Dogs looked good with its hyper realism though; but not all games will look like that; and it still has its own new unique ideas.


So don't base the PS4/720 visuals on these; hopefully not anyway :D
This is still last gen creeping in and the old way of doing things.
 

eso76

Member
Agni is a tech demo, I'll be very happy if next gen will reach such graphics fidelity in gameplay scenes but I'm not counting on it.

Not ingame. Or maybe end of generation.
As real time cinematic, i can see it happening.
I mean, look at what devs have done with cinematics in Halo 4 or Uncharted.
 

DieH@rd

Banned
A10 has great price and performance in PC space [almost as fast sa i5, somewhere faster, but much much cheaper], but for consoles it will need much beefier GPU.

On the other hand, lets talk about cooling. Launch PS3 had awesome cooling that was quite expensive (~$30). How expensive are closed water cooling systems these days? Did PS3 used vapor chamber cooling?
 
1080p/60fps is no doubt the goal. I'm interested to see if we can get a decent 3D solution for the next gen too. 720p/30fps would be great. the horrid resolution in 3D kills it for this generation. 3D on a decent PC is great.

I also see 3D being far more important than 4k support.

I know 720p 60fps and 1080p 30fps would be their minimum. Sony wants 3D content, and they know they can demand it. Smaller devs won't have to worry because.. well.. you know, but the big studios can no doubt achieve these benchmarks if the hardware is strong enough.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
A10 has great price and performance in PC space [almost as fast sa i5, somewhere faster, but much much cheaper], but for consoles it will need much beefier GPU.

On the other hand, lets talk about cooling. Launch PS3 had awesome cooling that was quite expensive (~$30). How expensive are closed water cooling systems these days? Did PS3 used vapor chamber cooling?
The A10 is probably just a dev kit base. Rumors of a dedicated GPU are likely because it's in there to emulate the power of the final kits. I bet it'll be a custom APU with a much better GPU than the standard. The APU set up has a lot of benefits for a console and if it's customized it makes perfect sense since there's no need to upgrade it. A lot of people are scared off when they hear that this may use an APU but it probably won't be a limiting factor for the GPU power if customized properly, it's just a different arrangement to decrease chip complexity and improve performance.

Not sure about cooling but I highly doubt there will be as much of a cooling requirement for the PS4 than there was for the launch PS3.
 

jaosobno

Member
I was just reading about future AMD platforms on wiki and it seems to me that things will go modified Steamroller/Kaveri rather than Jaguar/Kabini.

Wikipedia says this about Kaveri:


Kaveri (28 nm)
Steamroller-based APUs will be divided into versions for specific price-points and markets:
Kaveri APU covers the A10, A8, and A6 series of the 3rd generation APUs.
Kaveri is to contain an ARM Cortex-A5 MPCore as part of AMD's use of TrustZone IP from ARM.
Kaveri will contain GCN-based graphics, although it is unknown whether these will be Southern Islands or Sea Islands based GCN.
Includes support for DDR3-2133


Bold part being very important. The rumors say that Sony wants us to be able to access PS4's OS mid-game with no hiccups (or need to stop game execution) and that system will be able to perform updates while in standby mode.

Now, it's true that Jaguar is a low power core and that you could dedicate single core for this task, however, Jaguar belongs in the low power market and low power usually means low performance.

With Kaveri you could dedicate A5 to do above mentioned things since A5 is also a low power core. Now it's true that A5 in Kaveri is meant for hardware security, however you can always alter its purpose.

If Sony decides to go with Jaguar/Kabini, they will have to fit PS4 with a GPGPU of epic power to compensate for low performance of APU and epic power would also mean epic TDP.

What do you think?
 

i-Lo

Member
Pertaining A10, is there any reason why we are assuming that it's 5800K version and not 5700? I say this since the latter has a TDP of 65W as opposed to 100W of the former. Given it'll be a closed system, would it not be prudent to use the 5700 and allow for a pretty powerful discrete GPU without raising the power consumption north of 200-210W?
 

Ty4on

Member
The current bulldozer/piledriver chips are on 32nm . We should see GF with 22nm early next year. So they should run quite cool. Remember the old i7 920s were 32nm and when we got sandy bridge on 22nm we got huge power savings while increasing performance. The same thing should happen with AMD when they move down to 22nm .

Sandy Bridge is 32nm, the heat decreased because it was a better architechture. Ivy Bridge is 22nm and uses 10-15 less watts.
 

StevieP

Banned
Sandy Bridge is 32nm, the heat decreased because it was a better architechture. Ivy Bridge is 22nm and uses 10-15 less watts.

I do not think we will see 22nm on these consoles. I think they will stick with the slightly more mature 28nm. The latest rumours still put it on Jaguar cores, though.
 

Binabik15

Member
It's funny that the highly detailed wire frame stuff we have seen of The Last Of Us and an article on the assets of Uncharted 3 I read months ago (that they are produced in 2k/4k) should mean the bold isn't true for ND at least?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious though.

I think he is referring to the topic around how much it will cost to produce next-gen games, Epic said it would cost like 5x what it does now or 2x with their engine, which you can license from them for a nice fee!

Chances are next-gen games aren't going to cost an arm and a leg more, developers will whip out games that will be a step above what we have now using better assets and not having to compress everything down to fit inside these current machines tiny amount of ram and not go overboard at first. Developers will probably be far more cautious next-gen but I doubt so many will stumble into HD like so many did this gen.

I was making fun of the people slobbering over the imminent death of all console developers aiming for anything higher than PS360 (
Wii-U?
) because of "the high quality assets". Looking at the models done for the U-Boot captain in UC1 and then looking at it in-game, for example, shows how ridiculous the work many devs already do and then scale down for performance.

Sure, cost might go up, but I want better effects, AI, physics, IQ, framerates, level size etc in my games and I want it now. Some of those thing will cost additional money, some will be easy to do.
 

KageMaru

Member
^ Agreed (with StevieP) that we'll probably be seeing Jaguar cores. IF we were to see Steam Roller in any system, we would be reading rumors about it.

Slow? SMS helps everyone! Journey, Starhawk, etc..... And they have another game coming up that will set a new graphical benchmark.

Interesting how you have your mind made up before even playing the game...

The notion of 'HD remakes' of older games never crossed my mind, and I am impressed by some of the results. What are the likelihood of seeing similar 'upgrades' of current gen games on next gen (even if they don't appear early on in next-gen's life cycle)?

Even though even current gen games look much better in those screens, I don't think the jump in fidelity would be worth the investment. Going last gen to this gen is a huge noticeable improvement (usually), but current gen remake next gen would be a harder sell to make IMO.
 

i-Lo

Member
The A10 is probably just a dev kit base. Rumors of a dedicated GPU are likely because it's in there to emulate the power of the final kits. I bet it'll be a custom APU with a much better GPU than the standard. The APU set up has a lot of benefits for a console and if it's customized it makes perfect sense since there's no need to upgrade it. A lot of people are scared off when they hear that this may use an APU but it probably won't be a limiting factor for the GPU power if customized properly, it's just a different arrangement to decrease chip complexity and improve performance.

Not sure about cooling but I highly doubt there will be as much of a cooling requirement for the PS4 than there was for the launch PS3.

You bring up a very possible scenario. So, if I were rephrasing this correctly, AMD could create a custom APU, which if it contained something similar to A10, would have its integrated GPU removed and replaced by something as powerful as the Pitcairn or its Sea Island equivalent. So on the same die you'd have a CPU (Jag/Steam) and a GPU that people were hoping would be a discreet one. I assume people thought so because there are limitation with the current APU design which would prevent such an operation. If what you say becomes reality then here's the million dollars question, what GPU are devs using alongside the A10 APU to simulate the intended outcome?
 

DieH@rd

Banned
If what you say becomes reality then here's the million dollars question, what GPU are devs using alongside the A10 APU to simulate the intended outcome?

They are probably using the most powerful singlegpu radeons, just to make the process of early game production more easier.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
On the other hand, lets talk about cooling. Launch PS3 had awesome cooling that was quite expensive (~$30). How expensive are closed water cooling systems these days? Did PS3 used vapor chamber cooling?

Don't know what makes vapor chamber cooling but it was very impressive (ie: expensive)

images


If Sony do go for another 200 watt system at launch they'll need a similar cooling system assuming a similar case size. I don't see it happening ATM.
 
It's risky to bank on unproven technology when you're intending to ramp for mass manufacturing in a short period of time.

They're likely to be targeting something they know they can have ready.

Anyway, I would be FAR less concerned with what series the chip is closest to than its performance.
There are two schools of thought:

1) Sony is using off the shelf parts that have existed for a time, are tested-proved and inexpensive.

2) Sony and Microsoft are getting a custom design based on future APU + GPU designs.

Consider for option 2: AMD has been planning this since 2007 and has a road map of designs based on memory availability, market and Forge readiness between 3-5 years ahead. Both Sony and Microsoft have committed to this since 2010. I.E. Internally Sony and Microsoft have had synthesised (simulated/emulated) versions of final hardware for several years. They haven't changed anything since late 2010, it's always been a future AMD design that would be in both consoles.

In order for Sony and Microsoft to take advantage of AMD paying for R&D and node size reductions, both have to use AMD building blocks or what will be near future 2014 AMD building blocks. AMD is not going to refresh game console hardware at a new node size unless those building blocks are part of their IP catalog. The 2014 AMD building block catalog is good till past 2017 then a new cycle using new technology is supposed to start.

AMD is betting the farm on HSA and one or both game consoles have to support full HSA and that is a 2014 design. I suspect BOTH will have similar 2014+ designs.
 

Ricky_R

Member
Ok, can somebody give me a short summary of what the PS4 will be composed of in terms of hardware? Going by the rumors of course.

I tried reading, but there's too much and I get confused with all the technical terms.
 

KageMaru

Member
There are two schools of thought:

1) Sony is using off the shelf parts that have existed for a time, are tested-proved and inexpensive.

2) Sony and Microsoft are getting a custom design based on future APU + GPU designs.

Consider for option 2: AMD has been planning this since 2007 and has a road map of designs based on memory availability, market and Forge readiness between 3-5 years ahead. Both Sony and Microsoft have committed to this since 2010. I.E. Internally Sony and Microsoft have had synthesised (simulated/emulated) versions of final hardware for several years. They haven't changed anything since late 2010, it's always been a future AMD design that would be in both consoles.

In order for Sony and Microsoft to take advantage of AMD paying for R&D and node size reductions, both have to use AMD building blocks or what will be near future 2014 AMD building blocks. AMD is not going to refresh game console hardware at a new node size unless those building blocks are part of their IP catalog. The 2014 AMD building block catalog is good till past 2017 then a new cycle using new technology is supposed to start.

AMD is betting the farm on HSA and one or both game consoles have to support full HSA and that is a 2014 design. I suspect BOTH will have similar 2014+ designs.

So basically you ignore all the logic in gofreak's post and continue to insist that we'll see 2014 designs in these 2013 consoles?

Ok, can somebody give me a short summary of what the PS4 will be composed of in terms of hardware? Going by the rumors of course.

I tried reading, but there's too much and I get confused with all the technical terms.

AMD APU, AMD GPU, and now it's looking like 6GB-8GB of memory. If the latest rumors are to be believed.
 
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