Because it is no link nor public information,
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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1
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Because it is no link nor public information,
True, but I don't think you can compare 400Gflops of GPGPU 'Power' to 400Gflops of REAL CPU power, the CPU is much more efficient in doing it's own things.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I agree with you, and, no, I'm definitely not ignoring them. Please read my posts carefully. I'm saying Sony saw this and made what they felt was the best possible recommendation for how devs should use those remaining resources, not that they were useless because of this fact. They said that there is a significant drop off in the benefit of the extra ALU resources after 14 CUs for graphics rendering, not for everything else, or not that there is no benefit, just that the benefit is not as great after that mark if you intend on using them for graphics rendering, and then they recommend using the remaining for CUs for compute.
I myself have said many times that I expect the PS4's compute advantage to be the biggest advantage that the console holds over the Xbox One time and time again, and it will make games better. People have to pay attention to what I say more often
Those resources won't go to waste, but clearly sony felt that, for the sake of balance (shit I hate using that word now lol), they would recommend a 14 and 4 split between Graphics and Compute, but that doesn't mean you can't do 16 + 2 or 17 + 1 etc etc. It just sounds like they're saying if your benefit of extra CU for graphics is so low, why waste it on that, when you can use it on awesome compute stuff? That's how I see it anyway.Only saying it now so I don't have to repeat it. I'm not posting a link, because it isn't a link. it's just information that I think proves what I'm saying is true beyond doubt, but it also carries the risk of getting someone in trouble or violating their trust, which is why I can't just say everything, and why immediately after I said it, I said I would have no issue sharing the information with a mod if it made people more comfortable that I'm being transparent and honest. I've known about it for awhile, but it became much more interesting once MS publicly confirmed their testing for 14 CUs and saying how the CPU was a limiting factor to their games. It's also a fair assumption architects for both systems know or was learning quite a bit about what was going on in the other project through various channels, so I don't find it completely insignificant that MS mentioned what sony stated to devs about their GPU and their recommended best usage of it.
edit:: Anytime I get info from a site, I post it 100% of the time. In fact, it's a habit I have that some find annoying at times
I agree with you, and, no, I'm definitely not ignoring them. Please read my posts carefully. I'm saying Sony saw this and made what they felt was the best possible recommendation for how devs should use those remaining resources, not that they were useless because of this fact. They said that there is a significant drop off in the benefit of the extra ALU resources after 14 CUs for graphics rendering, not for everything else, or not that there is no benefit, just that the benefit is not as great after that mark if you intend on using them for graphics rendering, and then they recommend using the remaining for CUs for compute.
I myself have said many times that I expect the PS4's compute advantage to be the biggest advantage that the console holds over the Xbox One time and time again, and it will make games better. People have to pay attention to what I say more often
Your aware compute can be used for graphics right?
shinra-bansho
Member
Thanks for confirming. It seemed an odd comment to throw in there... :/
Thanks, your posts are always really straightforward to follow. I can totally get that part of it is future proofing for if devs do want to do more with GPU compute. But it's also pretty clear that a dev can use those resources for whatever they want and Cerny has already stated that there is no evangelising - that it will be used for whatever a specific game intends.
So I'm curious where exactly this idea that there's massive diminishing returns beyond 14 CUs, that makes it pointless to use them for graphics, i.e. the bolded that's being suggested now by some posters keeps coming from... and why exactly Sony would suggest this at a developer conference.
And why exactly this would specifically impact the PS4... as opposed to desktop GPUs which show performance gains with more compute units.
Who said anything about comparing it to CPU flops? the point is it would still be 400GFLOPS left over to do computing tasks.
Can Crusher
Banned
Some people like Senjutsu miss the the point in such a glaring away, sometimes you gotta double read the post to take it all in.
First and foremost Xbox One has 12 CUs. So even if Ps4 only used 14 CUs for graphics, there would be an advantage already. Second Sony gave an example and people ran with it, but developers can split the CUs usage anyway they want. Third, and this is probably the one that might feel like a kick in the teeth, if a game uses 4 CUs for GPGPU (physics for example) that's going to impact the visuals and the interactivity of the game.
So even if we limit it to physics and such, the situation doesn't get any better for the Xbox One... a 14+4 split in a multiplat game translates to what on the Xbox One? Do they simply eliminate the more demanding GPGPU functionality, or downgrade the graphics further?
A complete dead end.
First and foremost Xbox One has 12 CUs. So even if Ps4 only used 14 CUs for graphics, there would be an advantage already. Second Sony gave an example and people ran with it, but developers can split the CUs usage anyway they want. Third, and this is probably the one that might feel like a kick in the teeth, if a game uses 4 CUs for GPGPU (physics for example) that's going to impact the visuals and the interactivity of the game.
So even if we limit it to physics and such, the situation doesn't get any better for the Xbox One... a 14+4 split in a multiplat game translates to what on the Xbox One? Do they simply eliminate the more demanding GPGPU functionality, or downgrade the graphics further?
A complete dead end.
The only thing I can think of is that the FF GFX hardware might be a limiting factor but doing GPGPU compute preprocessing or new algorithms / effects get around that.
I think you should PM to bish as well...
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
And why would he need to do that. I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation.
Because the way your saying it, is why even have a CPU IF part of a giant GPU can just act as one? It doesn't work that way, the GPGPU can only do certain things a CPU can and if the things needed are one of the things it can't do well or at all, then that power might go to waste.
hes claiming to have insider information.
Nightbringer
Don´t hit me for my bad english plase
It's suspiciously interesting the MS PR specifically mentioned than the GPU overclock was better than running with 14 CUs...
Argumentation based on info that only he knows and don't share a simple link.
Stop it Leadbetter your defence force about xbone starts to be embarassing now. I just want to remember KI at 720p to reach 60 fps in multiplayer, a beat em up, Jeez with the magic power of the Cloud; KZ multiplayer is 60 fps at 1080p with the 'mortal' psn plus. 200 GB lol can't believe this bullshitness continues to be quotes in this article, it's pure MS propaganda.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Oh right, now SenjutsuSage (of all people) has some "secret insider information" about Sony hardware that he can not post publicly for "reasons" and which somehow describe a bottleneck which isn't in the specs and which magically reduces the performance beyond 14 CUs, while AMD has plans to release cards with up to 44 compute units.
No it isn't. That's the max their chip has and they were looking into opening up the two deactivated CUs.
Gemüsepizza;83311589 said:
Yep. I'm real interested to see what his info is from, especially since the place he gets most of his info from seems to be a Microsoft developer.
Completely debunked by Cerny himself in an interview.
He was already checked some time ago.
Zombie James
Banned
Stupid Cerny, he should have just overclocked.
For Microsoft or Sony, because one does not entail the other.
statham
Member
needed to be quote for lololol
and with Sony first party devs (especially) being very familiar with SPEs being used to augment the GPU on PS3, it will be very interesting to see what they come up with on PS4
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Then he should share it with all of us.
panda-zebra
Member
Yes, that's from the face-to-face with Cerny by DF: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-face-to-face-with-mark-cerny
Digital Foundry said:
Mark Cerny said:
Well if what Gofreak said is true then it does impact desktop GPUs. He stated benchmarks of comparable GPUs with 50% more CUs only received a 25% gain in performance. Sony is saying it might be better to use those extra CUs for Compute worked because you will gain a greater than x% of performance then just using them on graphics.
Here you go. When the PS4 specs were first leaked : http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled-2/
That had to have come from somewhere.
SuperSonic1305
Member
Another Reiko? This is getting sad.
I agree with you, and, no, I'm definitely not ignoring them. Please read my posts carefully. I'm saying Sony saw this and made what they felt was the best possible recommendation for how devs should use those remaining resources, not that they were useless because of this fact. They said that there is a significant drop off in the benefit of the extra ALU resources after 14 CUs for graphics rendering, not for everything else, or not that there is no benefit, just that the benefit is not as great after that mark if you intend on using them for graphics rendering, and then they recommend using the remaining for CUs for compute.
I myself have said many times that I expect the PS4's compute advantage to be the biggest advantage that the console holds over the Xbox One time and time again, and it will make games better. People have to pay attention to what I say more often
Basically what Sony was doing was making a case for using GPGPU Compute.
14 CU's used for fixed function graphics vs 18 CU's for fixed function graphics will get you the same game that will just look a little better but using 14 CU's for fixed function graphics & the other for compute can change the game by a lot be giving you better physics & other simulations.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Problem is even if he has insider info does he understand it or does the person that told him understand it .
It's hard to take some info at face value with so much spinning and lack of understanding going on .
EDIT it also matter how old the info is Cerny already explain the 14 + 4 as a eg of something you can do if you want .
Framerate performance has never scaled linearly by CUs and Flops because it's not the only GPU factor in determining framerate.
LittleJohnny
Banned
Here's an interesting question... how many CUs does Sony use for redundancy? We now know that XBO has 14 CUs 2 disabled for redundancy. Does PS4 have all 18 CUs active? Maybe 20 CUs and 18 active? hopefully not 18 total with 4 disabled for redundancy and PR is running with saying its 18 "Hardware balanced at 14 CUs"
Glorified G
Member
Why pm and not just post the link? What is this source that you only have access to?
Anyone who has that kind of information wouldn't go into such detail in the manner that he did but even so anyone could claim to have second and third hand info and spread fud and use the 'I'll pm you" the details which just ruins these kinds of threads. Let's not turn into beyond3d
This needs the bish test.
Haha lol. At this point thats all you can really do, sit back and enjoy the ride.
Edit: You shouldn't have changed the period it was better.
It has different memory advantages and weaknesses. It depends in other words. If you needed high bandwidth with fairly regular memory access the GPU might best a CPU of comparable fp performance.
Of course it's a bit moot anyway since CPUs with huge compute power aren't exactly ten a penny. Hence the rise of GPGPU.
True. But they're just saying: have a look to see if there's a point where you could be using CUs better for other things.
They're asking devs to check if they're under-using ALU, holding the fairly attractive suggestion that quite a lot of power could be spare without hugely affecting render performance. But, again, it's very much your mileage may vary.
It wouldn't be pointless... like those PC benches show, you can still get a gain (variable depending on the game). In some the gain may even be linear. But if on average the gain isn't linear, and your software is being held back by some other point in the pipeline beyond a certain level of shading performance, it is simply wise to consider throwing in other work that may have a different ratio of resource demands, to get alu utilisation back up, and get some nice features or work done into the bargain.
It's not a specific impact on PS4. This is true of any GPU.
And for sure it's in Sony's interests to push GPGPU. It could be a strong competitive advantage for them, it would be hard if not impossible to bring parity on another console if a game is chucking a decent amount of GPGPU around.
So a 'happy coincidence' then that the small overclock>Sonys setup
Just odd they would mention Sonys thoughts in the same PR, they could have just left Sony out
phosphor112
Banned
SenjutsuSage
Banned
That's a huge misconception. He said no different than what I said, only he danced around or left out the information communicated to devs. He actually didn't lie, he just omitted or didn't fully clarify.
In fact, Cerny greatly hinted that it was true.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-face-to-face-with-mark-cerny
When he says a little bit more ALU than if you were thinking strictly about graphics, and when he says the hardware is intentionally not 100 percent round, he means that it doesn't scale in returns for graphics per block of ALU like you might think.
I'm not spouting bs about a dual apu or dual GPU or 4 to 5+ teraflops worth of performance.
viveks86
Member
PS4 unbalanced confirmed
that's really interesting though. And perhaps would that mean that cross-gen multiplatform titles might not show much difference between xbox and PS4? Assuming they are relatively straightforward up-ports.
This isn't how the real world works, it isn't so cut and dry but I could believe it for specific scenarios.
LittleJohnny
Banned
What about ROPs? I didn't see this mentioned at all. 32 ROPs for PS4 vs 16 ROPs for XBO is significant.
Yes, it does....
Do we live on a planet where graphics cards don't exist? The scaling is not linear but we are not just talking about extra CUs here, we have faster memory on PS4 and we have more ROPs.
PS4 unbalanced confirmed
that's really interesting though. And perhaps would that mean that cross-gen multiplatform titles might not show much difference between xbox and PS4? Assuming they are relatively straightforward up-ports.
Unless there is hard cap on FPS, anything that the Xbox One can run will run faster on the PS4. It's the nature of the architecture in these new consoles they inherited from being based on PCs.
How do you think HD 7970 runs faster than a HD 7870? Do you think developers go in and code it that way?
SwiftDeath
Member
Only saying it now so I don't have to repeat it. I'm not posting a link, because it isn't a link. it's just information that I think proves what I'm saying is true beyond doubt, but it also carries the risk of getting someone in trouble or violating their trust, which is why I can't just say everything, and why immediately after I said it, I said I would have no issue sharing the information with a mod if it made people more comfortable that I'm being transparent and honest. I've known about it for awhile, but it became much more interesting once MS publicly confirmed their testing for 14 CUs and saying how the CPU was a limiting factor to their games. It's also a fair assumption architects for both systems know or was learning quite a bit about what was going on in the other project through various channels, so I don't find it completely insignificant that MS mentioned what sony stated to devs about their GPU and their recommended best usage of it.
edit:: Anytime I get info from a site, I post it 100% of the time. In fact, it's a habit I have that some find annoying at times
Has this new info source been verified by bish yet?
Needs moar TUB
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Just keep in mind, this doesn't somehow make the PS4 any less awesome than it already is. It's how sony designed the system, and it's smart to push GPGPU.
No, actually, but I'll go message him the info currently so you guys know that I did.