Yea, pretty much. People really have to justify spending money sometimes, and it's most prevalent at the beginning of a new generation.
Console wars and what not. They're the best of times in game forums.
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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1
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Yea, pretty much. People really have to justify spending money sometimes, and it's most prevalent at the beginning of a new generation.
Console wars and what not. They're the best of times in game forums.
Dude, Ryse stands right now as, imo, the most amazing looking game on either system. I don't need to focus on all these multi-platforms that I haven't seen yet. Dude, I've seen Fifa on both PS4 and Xbox One. Do you see a huge difference there, either? That's one game we can talk about that's multi, right? Oh, but there's a catch, I know. It's FIFA
Whatever the case, I'm not living and dying on the numbers. We already know sony's kicking MS ass on the raw numbers. Nobody denies. Nobody is even denying that it will have an impact. Sony's console is stronger, period. But just how much will that show up in the real world is the question. That's all I'm saying. Personally, I would love if the PS4's advantage shows up every bit as much as the raw numbers indicates, because I'm going to own the system. However, realistically, I don't think it's going to happen. Call me one of those stubborn people that have to see it before I believe it. Is that so wrong?
Do you ever get tired of posting nonsense? From a technical standpoint, nope. From an artistic standpoint, its subjective. Ryse is not even the best looking game on the xbox one talk-less of both consoles.
Someone else posted the ryse single player video. It looks like they have improved the combat and it looks very similar to God of War. I will definitely want to play it when i get a chance.
Seeing how they owned 360s, you'd think they might not have just tuned right out after the initial XBO reveal, I don't see how that's artist's fault.
How did he account for the difference in ROPs?
Garrett 2U
Member
Hey I'm not saying its artists job to spread positive gossip or praise about Microsoft.
But if I specifically knew my friends were worrying about an issue that I learned was no longer relevant, I'd tell them.
I wouldn't be posting on message boards, smiling that they are ignorant on the matter.
That's it.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
I don't get it either.
Weren't you just making fun of Senjutsu in the Edge thread? No need to get testy now... Bottom line is it seems pretty crazy that you wouldn't be honest with your friends when you know something that they don't.
Everyone should remain informed about the current state of affairs, but they should also be informed and aware of the context.
Not saying anything to them about the 180s is one thing, but telling them the 180s are gone and not warning them that Microsoft was trying hard to push these barbaric policies onto customers in the first place (i.e. beware of their future plans) and saying "Hey come back to Xbox, it's all good now!" is the same thing or worse.
Imo though, if they were turned off by the initial reveal, then its their job to keep up-to-date and make their own decision, not yours to push onto them.
Teletraan1
Banned
Real friends dont let their friends buy a more expensive less powerful anything.
Infinite Xero
Member
If that were true then Apple probably wouldn't exist.
Leadbetter never wrote that article. David Coombes did.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-in-theory-can-xbox-one-cloud-transform-gaming
Leadbetter has pretty much always had a Microsoft bias, which is natural I suppose, to have biases and preferences. It's just the job of professionals to not let it cloud their journalistic integrity, and most recently Leadbetter has abysmally failed on that front, essentially peddling Microsoft PR. I would not be at all surprised if all along his "sources" for the technical articles previously written were just direct Microsoft technicians or PR people who's job it was to funnel such information.
Teletraan1
Banned
If Apple didn't exist I would still have friends. I stick to my convictions.
ConteZero76
Member
Point is, it's less powerful, more expensive and some of its key features are USA-bound (or not there right now). But, hey, it will be a "great" console.
I don't know, it smells like damage control in a technical tread.
shinra-bansho
Member
An extension of the chart posted earlier in the thread, with the original XB1 spec as baseline.*
And now a comparative chart between the current XB1 spec and the PS4 spec.*
(*These should be correct? Someone please correct if they're wrong. Fixed the texel fill for 14CU XB1, thanks artist.)
Presumably, there was some merit to increasing the GPU clockspeed by 53 MHz in order to increase those metrics by the 6% or so. Presumably they saw a performance advantage over their original spec that was significant enough to make this worthwhile.
How exactly does one reconcile that with claiming there'll be no significant performance advantage to increasing three of those metrics by north of 40%?
I think this may better illustrate what they were saying about seeing more of a performance increase through the upclock in the games they tested and why?
And now a comparative chart between the current XB1 spec and the PS4 spec.*
(*These should be correct? Someone please correct if they're wrong. Fixed the texel fill for 14CU XB1, thanks artist.)
Presumably, there was some merit to increasing the GPU clockspeed by 53 MHz in order to increase those metrics by the 6% or so. Presumably they saw a performance advantage over their original spec that was significant enough to make this worthwhile.
How exactly does one reconcile that with claiming there'll be no significant performance advantage to increasing three of those metrics by north of 40%?
Liabe Brave
Member
The Ryse video you're basing that claim on was rendered at a higher resolution than the game will actually output. Besides the resolution, we don't know what else--if anything--will also be downgraded in the final product. (My personal guess is at least the AA, which is at truly awesome and unexpected levels in the combat vidoc.)SenjutsuSage said:
In other words, the comparison is probably premature, just as it is with The Division and other titles probably running in "target" mode.
The texel fill for the 14CU @ 800 seems wrong.
They cant, because if what they were saying were true we wouldnt have higher CU count, TMU count, ROP count or in simple words - beefier GPUs. And those GPUs wouldnt have significant performance advantage over a 12CU design like the Xbone.
Just a simple example; Titan - fastest GPU on the market right now, it could have an excess in certain metrics (I think texturing power) and it powers through the games based on it's sheer overall power. Where as you look at the Bonaire, that card is "balanced", it has a 128b wide bus and 16 ROPs with a very low count of TMUs and CUs, So while the other GPU may be unbalanced, it still outruns the more balanced GPU. Not meaning to imply that the difference will be as large, just an example where a seemingly "excess" design makes a mockery of a "balanced" design.
No bro. I'm kind of guilty of slightly the same thing. All of my circle of friends are on board for PS4. WHY WOULD I RUIN THAT ?! I don't even care about the "console wars" anymore, I just want to play games with everyone. Even the 3 hardcore Xbox Fanatics are on board for PS4. I even had to pull the "You didn't like Halo 4. You don't even want Halo 5. You want a Bungie game. Destiny, for PS4."
There are somethings that are worth not exactly lying for.
Edit : I see this topic has already been done. I still stand by my inherently selfish decision. For all I know they already know. My case and his are different, I can plead willful ignorance. Even if it's slightly worse than regular ignorance.
ChosenPredator
Banned
who knows maybe your right, i honestly have zero clue what the spec talk means regarding consoles, it feels like pc talk to me so i think the majority of gamers will go where the better games are and graphics will have little todo with that choice..but i could be wrong, i guess we will see once both are out
and fuck its hard typing on vita lol
SwiftDeath
Member
Certainly although 3rd party exclusives will be more expensive for MS to get I imagine if the install base is significantly PS4 skewed
So it may turn into a 1st party studio fight which heavily favors Sony in my opinion
I do think the price point is a significant consideration as well for most gamers and that favors the PS4 as well
Haha I can only imagine
Why should he, some of my friends dont know either, and i am not telling them.
I want them to be on the console I have.
PJV3
Member
Why should he, some of my friends dont know either, and i am not telling them.
They save money and get an apparently more powerful machine, you're doing them a favour.
EmptySpace
Banned
Dude, Ryse stands right now as, imo, the most amazing looking game on either system. I don't need to focus on all these multi-platforms that I haven't seen yet. Dude, I've seen Fifa on both PS4 and Xbox One. Do you see a huge difference there, either? That's one game we can talk about that's multi, right? Oh, but there's a catch, I know. It's FIFA
Whatever the case, I'm not living and dying on the numbers. We already know sony's kicking MS ass on the raw numbers. Nobody denies. Nobody is even denying that it will have an impact. Sony's console is stronger, period. But just how much will that show up in the real world is the question. That's all I'm saying. Personally, I would love if the PS4's advantage shows up every bit as much as the raw numbers indicates, because I'm going to own the system. However, realistically, I don't think it's going to happen. Call me one of those stubborn people that have to see it before I believe it. Is that so wrong?
senjutsu is not stubborn, from b3d.
senjutsusage said:
senjutsu claims most people just ignore xbone because they just hate it, and that same analogy applies to senjutsu. he was already dead set on being on xbone's side no matter what, even when the xbone did not allow used games and did always-on, he was convinced there was some secret sauce, he always said msft's actions "may be a part of their plans all along", etc.
EmptySpace gets senjutsu really likes the xbone, but there is a difference between overly optimistic and just flat-out denial. senjutsu always has this schtick of always saying ps4 is more powerful as if it were a disclaimer after bringing up "move engines" or some info he got out of b3d in every other thread. claiming real-world difference to be "less than expected" without proper evidence but disproving people who use the second most-proper evidence (raw numbers and specs), does not make sense.
nobody is questioning whether or not xbone will be getting good games or hardware is not capable enough, but everything in the universe is relative.
shinra-bansho
Member
Thanks.
Yeah, I should probably confess I was being somewhat rhetorical. There's incongruity between the competing positions of "this small upclock was worthwhile and will have performance gains" and "the much greater increase in those metrics will not significantly affect performance going forward" that people don't seem to want to admit to. Which again, I agree, is not to say the games will be "50% better looking" a relatively meaningless statement.
General query: Is the advantage the XB1 seems to hold in triangle rate due to the upclock going to mean anything going forward?
This actually isn't a surprise, these products are heavily subject to network effects - I thought it could even be an interesting thread topic, but am too lazy to make it.
Essentially the value of these products is both directly and indirectly influenced by the number of other people buying these products.
phosphor112
Banned
Did someone say close ups?
Gifs are from a live demo that Quantum Dream did at Gamescom.
You see thanks to this unbalance it can stand straight.
SwiftDeath
Member
nhlducks35
Member
But Apple has the most powerful phone on the market right now
Did someone say close ups?
Gifs are from a live demo that Quantum Dream did at Gamescom.
Is there video of this? Looks amazing.
Edit: Posted below. Thanks!
Did someone say close ups?
Gifs are from a live demo that Quantum Dream did at Gamescom.
Thanks. I found the video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3FYi0Xr1pc
The problem with the Digital Foundry "article" that spawned this discussion is that it is not journalistic in any sense of the word. At no point are questions asked, challenges given, or answers examined, researched, or tested for accuracy. It is for all intents and purposes an "unofficial" publicity statement coming directly from Microsoft with Leadbetter's name attached as author.
If this poor excuse for an article had been published on any real, serious, credible hardware sight the author would probably have been tarred and feathered. Credibility for a hardware journalist comes from rigorous and scientific examination and testing, not regurgitating word for word what was quoted during a phone call and then immediately concluding that every word spoken is true and right and good. I understand that there is certainly no Xbox One available to test, much less a PS4 to compare it to, but how hard would it have been to do a bit of research into the claims being made in order to offer objective insight? Maybe it would have been hard, but that should be the author's job; instead it seems his real work is promoting Microsoft products.
To be clear, I'm going to be buying a PS4 and not an Xbox One (at least not immediately), but not because of superior specs; I love Sony's 1st Party titles and couldn't care less about Halo, Forza, or Gears of War. My issue is not with the Xbox One itself; it may truly be a more balanced, elegantly designed machine that can go toe to toe with the PS4 despite it's perceived handicaps. My issue is purely with Richard Leadbetter and his lack of any journalistic integrity at this point.
If this poor excuse for an article had been published on any real, serious, credible hardware sight the author would probably have been tarred and feathered. Credibility for a hardware journalist comes from rigorous and scientific examination and testing, not regurgitating word for word what was quoted during a phone call and then immediately concluding that every word spoken is true and right and good. I understand that there is certainly no Xbox One available to test, much less a PS4 to compare it to, but how hard would it have been to do a bit of research into the claims being made in order to offer objective insight? Maybe it would have been hard, but that should be the author's job; instead it seems his real work is promoting Microsoft products.
To be clear, I'm going to be buying a PS4 and not an Xbox One (at least not immediately), but not because of superior specs; I love Sony's 1st Party titles and couldn't care less about Halo, Forza, or Gears of War. My issue is not with the Xbox One itself; it may truly be a more balanced, elegantly designed machine that can go toe to toe with the PS4 despite it's perceived handicaps. My issue is purely with Richard Leadbetter and his lack of any journalistic integrity at this point.
The wonders of PR - when cognitive dissonance feels pleasant.
Do you giggle like a schoolgirl every time you refer to yourself in third person?
KKRT it would be amazing if you would stop comparing RYSE 150k main character to KZ:SF Average MOB characters. Part of that presentation was about difference between KZ3 and KZSF enemy character models.
We don't know poly-count of main SF main characters. IMO if those are in game models then they look a lot better than RYSE main character model.
We don't know poly-count of main SF main characters. IMO if those are in game models then they look a lot better than RYSE main character model.
That's interesting. Did not realise that. Link to where this is said?
It's quite clear Ryse's non main characters are considerably less poly and have less attention to detail in textures etc too.
BrainZEROX
Member
Honnestly I don't expect Guerilla to go overboard polygon wise with the main character. It's an fps, not a tps. Why would they waste resources on something we don't see most of the time? Not a good comparison imo.
I think he's talking about Echo and Sinclair. Those models are insanely impressive, particularly Echo.
Dictator93
Member
It is quite possible that the Xbox system is balanced. No point having more CUs, TMUs, ROPs if you have a lower memory bandwidth that wouldn't be able to feed them. So as a self-contained system it is probably balanced.
Just as long as they don't then try and downplay PS4, because that just makes them look silly - they won't have the detailed information to be able to talk about it meaningfully anyway, and whatever they do say will come across as damage control
Just as long as they don't then try and downplay PS4, because that just makes them look silly - they won't have the detailed information to be able to talk about it meaningfully anyway, and whatever they do say will come across as damage control
bigboss370
Member
whoa there, I'm actually one of the people that's liked Ryse since it was revealed, but saying its similar to GoW is way off the mark.
Did someone say close ups?
Gifs are from a live demo that Quantum Dream did at Gamescom.
dear god that is scary
travisbickle
Member
MS won't explicitly compare the two, but it's obvious that when they write an article that keeps mentioning how finely balanced their console is console warriors are going to interpret that as PS4 being an unbalanced mess, and I'm sure MS don't mind that happening.
It's evident that you haven't read the article yourself;
Directly from the article itself, Microsoft even went out of their way to incorrectly quote PS4's spec sheet. smh.
The reason he does that is obvious. The graphics aren't always reflective of gameplay and enjoyment. Gameplay is king.
Anyway this a tech thread, I should just keep quiet and read
Brad Grenz
Member
One of the really unfortunate parts of this generational transition is how it has destroyed my opinion of a number of people I use to respect highly. Wittingly so or not, Leadbetter has allowed himself to become an arm of the Microsoft FUD apparatus. And Adam Sessler has weirdly become a myopic shitheel about the PS4. I feel uncomfortable consuming their stuff these days because they've become so out of touch with reality.
"Balance" is not even really a virtue in this case. A single core ARM SoC can have a perfectly "balanced" design where the GPU and memory are perfectly attuned for each other. That doesn't make it a good choice for a game console. When MS says the Xbox One is "balanced" they're basically saying they spent the minimum amount needed to achieve the performance level and power consumption they targeted. It says nothing about why they targeted the level they targeted, let alone the merit of those choices in comparison to a more powerful design.
It was in presentation SF gave. Can't find link now.
Point is that 40k is their lod0 for average mob.
We know already that difference between main actors and mobs sometimes can be very vast. For example GOW3 used ~30-40k poly for kratos where mobs where vastly lower than that same with uncharted and pretty much every game.
having 100-150k for main characters next gen will be probably standard since last gen used 20-40k.
Unknown One
Member
Graphics lead to better framerate which lead to better gameplay. What a cop out statement.The reason he does that is obvious. The graphics aren't always reflective of gameplay and enjoyment. Gameplay is king.
Anyway this a tech thread, I should just keep quiet and read
FeiRR
Banned
Ryse is also TPP game while KZ:SF is FPP game. Having very detailed main characters outside of cutscenes in a FPP game is just pointless from the design choice perspective. Kind of reminds me of this though.
velociraptor
Junior Member
This is why devs should never waste polygons on things no one will be able to see during normal gameplay.
dragonelite
Member
Weren't people and press complaining in fps that a lot of them didn't have full body awareness. People wanted to point the gun down and see their legs or knees when jumping stuff like that.
Balance Schmalence...
Balance is an entirely subjective word that is probably perfect here.
PS4 was created as a games machine first and foremost... and they got lucky on GDDR5 density at the end, but the entire system was built ground up with the focus on playing games.
XB1 was created as a media hub for the home, hence the unveil and the focus straight afterwards. MS tried to build a system that could play games, run Kinect and provide Windows 8 for the TV.
Both did their job brilliantly - they both balanced their systems for the role intended.
Just that, like most GAFers, I am in the market for a machine to play games on.
My wallet says the Sony balance is correct for me.
As for "Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects".. I saw very little Versus in the article. Just acceptance.
Balance is an entirely subjective word that is probably perfect here.
PS4 was created as a games machine first and foremost... and they got lucky on GDDR5 density at the end, but the entire system was built ground up with the focus on playing games.
XB1 was created as a media hub for the home, hence the unveil and the focus straight afterwards. MS tried to build a system that could play games, run Kinect and provide Windows 8 for the TV.
Both did their job brilliantly - they both balanced their systems for the role intended.
Just that, like most GAFers, I am in the market for a machine to play games on.
My wallet says the Sony balance is correct for me.
As for "Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects".. I saw very little Versus in the article. Just acceptance.