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GametimeUK
Member
To be fair we are way off my original point anyway. It's irrelevant as to why Boletaria looks the way it does on the PS3. Ultimately that's how the world is and the Remake looks completely different and not true to the original.
hinch7
Member
Not a fan of some of the changes done but the guy is being super hyperbolic to the point of nit-picking every last detail. Granted From is GOAT'd when it comes to dark, gothic artstyle and some of the changes do have impact on the tone of it.
Whats does irk me though is how dark they've made the game in the remake. The lighting does need to be turned up a notch with much more filled out area/and or probe lights.
Whats does irk me though is how dark they've made the game in the remake. The lighting does need to be turned up a notch with much more filled out area/and or probe lights.
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Bernardougf
Member
Go play Final Fantasy 7 remake and than comeback to Demons Souls.. it will feel like Beethoven just wrote the 5th all again.
od-chan
Member
This is an all around awful comparison lmao. FF7R surely has issues, but the project itself is just on an entirely different scale (and quality), seeing how they had to re-imagine these PS1 chibi characters into something actually decent. It's more akin to RE2make (which again, also has issues, but is also rightfully beloved by fans).
Add to this the fact that you can buy the original FF7 without any issues on pretty much any modern platform, where as the original Demon's Souls faces the very real threat of being locked away on PS3/Emulator-Jail.
fallingdove
Member
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
I agree with you in principle, but have to disagree with the actual content of what you said.
There was always concept art of characters in FF7 and there was a long line of material for Compilation of FF7.
Part of the reason I don't like the remake and am not super interested in rebirth is the dismissal of the American voice actors whereas the Japanese voice actors were invited back. Felt like a fuck you to fans who had supported the compilation of FF7 all these years and it would be one thing if I thought it was an improvement but it wasn't.
That's the thing with remakes, if you don't like them, it's easy enough to just not buy them or wait to buy them at a discount depending on your interest level.
od-chan
Member
Oh I think it's going to be difficult for us to find common ground on this, because for all I care, they could've saved the money for an english dub all together and it would actually improve the product. And yes, I'm dead serious.
Yeah absolutely. If Sony would just re-release the OG Demon's Souls it would already appease a lot of the criticism, since then both versions could happily co-exist and fans could enjoy the best of both worlds.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Sometimes I elect to play games in the original Japanese dub, but I've listened to the American cast across compilation and Kingdom Hearts for 20 years... Steve Burton was Cloud Strife as recently as 2018... It was wild for them not to bring them back for this game. Something happened between 2018 and 2020.
Only in the minds of a select few. In reality they'd have to port the game and no one would actually buy it.
Bernardougf
Member
No matter how much you love this monstrosity, Its a perfect comparison of really butchering the original source material into something almost unrecognizable if not by the name and some characters.. its an all time classic turned into this dogshit bate and switch action pseudo-sequel that its only a ff7 remake on name alone.
Demons souls is the exact same game with a little different art and music.
So play the frankstein "remake" from square to see a real disaster and comeback to Demons Souls.
Point still stands.
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brenobnfm
Member
I'd say both games were butchered in different ways, but at least FFVII remake/rebirth was made by most of the same people and the original is preserved with modern versions.
Bernardougf
Member
The importance of the original being preserved is that people can always comeback and play FF7 again in the future as many still do and will do... since its the infinitely better version of the game and the true classic ... almost nobody will play classic demons souls instead of the remake going forward ... I think this speaks for itself.
If FF7 remake was a demons souls type of remake ...almost nobody would be going back to play the old version. In fact FF9 remake (their next game) if given a choice I would bet the majority would vote for an "demons souls" remake and not what SE did with FF7.
But this topic is about demons souls so I'll see myself out for now.
Orbital2060
Member
I still got the JP disc I got at launch, but no PS3 at the moment. I guess its easy to buy one relatively cheap?
Disc is still in good condition, but if its fucked, there is no way to buy it digitally cos the PS3 store was closed down wasnt it?
not really, because my response to it was that it looks the way it does due to the low polygon budget of the hardware at the time and not because it is somehow better artistically. The scene isn't really ruined by a better more detailed palace with a higher polygon budget.
He's already given it and said the original game was a rough game with a rough development yet some obsessive fans will still see that as the "perfect version" no matter what.
GametimeUK
Member
Can you explain to me the reason as to why it matters? Silent Hill had fog originally as a way to get around tech limitations. Should we remove the fog now? All games are designed around the technology available at the time.
The fact is the architecture of Boletaria in the Remake has departed from the original design. Whether somebody is arguing if it's better or not is irrelevant. It's your opinion think what you think.
There's a lot more changes to Boletaria in the Remake than the polygon budget.
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If graphically you don't add more details that weren't previously possible then what is the point of a remake? If you look at the original Boletaria concept art for DeS it looks nothing like DeS PS3. So clearly not because that's how they wanted it to look but because what was in the concept wasn't possible at the time. Miyazaki himself even said that it was exciting to see Bluepoint research and do things that they couldn't do at the time.
The fog in SH2 added to the atmosphere and was in fact a gameplay mechanic and relevant story scene. Removing fog would be stupid. Adding details to a palace while maintaining the same atmosphere is not.
Which itself had departed from lore and concept art due to technical hardware capability and budget. Point is that a better detailed palace isn't a big deal that ruins some setting or atmosphere, that remains intact. Unlike the removing fog in SH2 example which would have meant story and atmosphere changes.
GametimeUK
Member
Do you think Boletaria in the Remake is simply Demon's Souls with "more details" or have they massively changed the architecture? The Last of Us Part 1 is an example of the same environment with more detail. Just because the PS5 is more powerful than the PS3 doesn't mean they have to make everything gothic and throw towers everywhere in TLOU just because they can.
Boletaria to my eyes (I may be technically incorrect here) looks more based off what I'd see on a norman castle.
You can argue Demons Souls remake looks better, but it's nonsensical to say it retains the same architecture as the PS3, but adds more detail. It's a whole different design philosophy. I'm not debating opinions on what looks better here I'm stating the obvious.
Also referring back to concept art to prove your point doesn't matter either. A lot of concepts don't make it to the final game. The end result is what matters. You can argue the concepts will enhance the game if included, but once again that's an opinion. Like I could say Tomb Raider would be better if they stuck to having a male as the lead character and the recent Remasters would have benefitted from replacing Lara with the original male.
What you're doing is essentially deciding what works and what doesn't work based off your own opinion. It's fine to have your opinion and I'm not debating that. I'm just saying Boletaria in the Remake doesn't retain the architecture of the original.
Ceadeus
Member
You can still buy directly on the store if you add fund on either the ps4/ps5 wallet or on their website. I recently purchased ps3 games on my ps3I still got the JP disc I got at launch, but no PS3 at the moment. I guess its easy to buy one relatively cheap?
Disc is still in good condition, but if its fucked, there is no way to buy it digitally cos the PS3 store was closed down wasnt it?
The concept art of the original had Boletaria with more arches and a more eastern European gothic look. I'm saying its look in the game was mainly because it had to be blocky to lower polycount and due to the effort put in modelling, not because this was an artistic choice or trying to create a given architecture. Fog in SH was an artistic choice that benefited draw distance but was even explained as part of the story, changing to remove that would have been stupid. This isn't the case for slight changes to the architecture. Look at the building where you fight Doran in the PS3 version for example
It doesn't match any architecture of the period. Why would you have fake windows in those arches then stone columns between them? Its blocky design is to lower polycount and uses instances. that's all. It's just to reduce effort technically. Then inside you have arches and even a dome and stairs leading into a wall. Doesn't really make much sense architecturally
Yes that's essentially what I'm doing. I'm saying it keeps the atmosphere, lore, and feel of the game and overcomes the limitations of the original hardware to create a more believable palace in a both artistically and technically great game.
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poodaddy
Member
Completely agree. FFVII Remake is an absolute abomination of the highest order. I have issues with the Souls remake in terms of art style and sound design missteps, more the latter than the former, but it's still a great way to play through the game and probably is the defacto way to play it moving forward. The same cannot be said of FFVII Remake. Filler, anime cringe, uneven visuals, terrible voice acting, and a spongey combat system just besmirches the legacy of an otherwise legendary game. I don't like the original as much as everyone else does, admittedly, as I always considered it overrated, but it is a damn fine game, and the Remake trilogy is a gargantuan step down in quality of experience, which I don't think I'd say for this new DS.... though I do wish there was at least a toggle to use the old sound design and OST, but what can ya do?
Ashler
Member
I don't want to be that guy, but that's the Chinese versionI still got the JP disc I got at launch, but no PS3 at the moment. I guess its easy to buy one relatively cheap?
Disc is still in good condition, but if its fucked, there is no way to buy it digitally cos the PS3 store was closed down wasnt it?
JP version looks like thischromatic9
Member
The concept art of the original had Boletaria with more arches and a more eastern European gothic look. I'm saying its look in the game was mainly because it had to be blocky to lower polycount and due to the effort put in modelling, not because this was an artistic choice or trying to create a given architecture. Fog in SH was an artistic choice that benefited draw distance but was even explained as part of the story, changing to remove that would have been stupid. This isn't the case for slight changes to the architecture. Look at the building where you fight Doran in the PS3 version for example
It doesn't match any architecture of the period. Why would you have fake windows in those arches then stone columns between them? Its blocky design is to lower polycount and uses instances. that's all. It's just to reduce effort technically. Then inside you have arches and even a dome and stairs leading into a wall. Doesn't really make much sense architecturally
Yes that's essentially what I'm doing. I'm saying it keeps the atmosphere, lore, and feel of the game and overcomes the limitations of the original hardware to create a more believable palace in a both artistically and technically great game.
You should look at more buildings of the time. So many have windows blocked up, archways blocked up, doorways changed and blocked. These changes reflect a tougher much more dangerous time, one of attacks, stealing. Buildings in real life get repurposed to fort like structures and stripped of elaborate ornamentations, or they get damaged and leveled to a core structure and many are designed that way. These types of structures fit the austere nature and oppressive time being depicted.
I think that is kind of reaching since it doesn't depict a later blocked window. There are fake windows at the back of the building with light coming through but no transparency. A lot of blocked windows where I'm from were from an era where a window tax existed and I've seen plenty of those.
It merely was avoiding transparency for technical reasons. Its even coloured slightly differently. Plus there are no gable roofs with a blocky thin castle wall like that and no roof access. It's clear they wanted to make the building look grand with the limited polygon budget they had using instances of other model meshes but it makes zero sense architecturally.
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GametimeUK
Member
Silent Hills fog was introduced because of technical limitations. Sure it may become an artistic way to get around technical limitations and you can base a story round it, but it was a technical limitation first and foremost.The concept art of the original had Boletaria with more arches and a more eastern European gothic look. I'm saying its look in the game was mainly because it had to be blocky to lower polycount and due to the effort put in modelling, not because this was an artistic choice or trying to create a given architecture. Fog in SH was an artistic choice that benefited draw distance but was even explained as part of the story, changing to remove that would have been stupid. This isn't the case for slight changes to the architecture. Look at the building where you fight Doran in the PS3 version for example
It doesn't match any architecture of the period. Why would you have fake windows in those arches then stone columns between them? Its blocky design is to lower polycount and uses instances. that's all. It's just to reduce effort technically. Then inside you have arches and even a dome and stairs leading into a wall. Doesn't really make much sense architecturally
Yes that's essentially what I'm doing. I'm saying it keeps the atmosphere, lore, and feel of the game and overcomes the limitations of the original hardware to create a more believable palace in a both artistically and technically great game.
Even if Demon's Souls was more Medieval than Gothic due to technical limitations it doesn't change the fact that the original chose a Medieval artstyle to get round the technical limitations. Unless you're saying the original game is actually gothic and those flat surfaces at the top of the structures are just actually triangles that aren't rendered properly.
Also "slight changes" lol
You telling me these are the same building, but the triangles aren't loading properly on PS3 or something? Whether or not if the technical limitation dictated the art style or not these are 2 wildly different designs.
semiconscious
Member
ps3 store is still functional (& the prices are very reasonable)...
R6Rider
Gold Member
This is true, but the thought of using the PS3 store gives me nightmares.
semiconscious
Member
i had no problems. i think i had to put money in my ps5 wallet, because the ps3 store no longer processes credit? but that was it. pretty straightforward...
Nickolaidas
Member
Mood and direction.
lol.
lmao, even.
This looks like a decaying place forgotten by God.
This looks like the motherfucker uses an electric vacuum every two days to keep the place sparkly clean and tidy. My character is almost embarrassed to attack the archdemon because he doesn't want to mess the place up.
Are some changes unnecessary - looking at you, fat official - ? Sure, but it hardly is 'a mockery of the original'. Fucking threads like this is why people hate fanboys.
"BUT DUDE, DON'T YOU GET IT? HIS TEETH DON'T LOOK LIKE GIANT TOOTHPICKS ANYMORE -"
Yeah, whoopee dee fucking doo.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
If From had access to these tools, their art and detail would be far closer to the remake than their original.Mood and direction.
lol.
lmao, even.
This looks like a decaying place forgotten by God.
This looks like the motherfucker uses an electric vacuum every two days to keep the place sparkly clean and tidy. My character is almost embarrassed to attack the archdemon because he doesn't want to mess the place up.
Are some changes unnecessary - looking at you, fat official - ? Sure, but it hardly is 'a mockery of the original'. Fucking threads like this is why people hate fanboys.
"BUT DUDE, DON'T YOU GET IT? HIS TEETH DON'T LOOK LIKE GIANT TOOTHPICKS ANYMORE -"
Yeah, whoopee dee fucking doo.
Proof? Elden Ring.
bender
What time is it?
Nah, it would have had a Sci-Fi slant and featured giant mecha.
Proof? Armored Core 6
R6Rider
Gold Member
Oh man, my PS3's ethernet port doesn't work anymore so I have to use wifi, which is awful on the PS3. On top of that, the store in general takes forever to open.
Luckily I don't need to use it very often. I think the last time was over 4 years ago now.
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semiconscious
Member
I use wifi too. &, yeah, it's sluggish, but what do you expect, eh? worth it to me - got some great games cheap...
Making a nonsensical architectural building due to limitations like budget or polycount =/= "Triangles aren't loading".Silent Hills fog was introduced because of technical limitations. Sure it may become an artistic way to get around technical limitations and you can base a story round it, but it was a technical limitation first and foremost.
Even if Demon's Souls was more Medieval than Gothic due to technical limitations it doesn't change the fact that the original chose a Medieval artstyle to get round the technical limitations. Unless you're saying the original game is actually gothic and those flat surfaces at the top of the structures are just actually triangles that aren't rendered properly.
Also "slight changes" lol
You telling me these are the same building, but the triangles aren't loading properly on PS3 or something? Whether or not if the technical limitation dictated the art style or not these are 2 wildly different designs.
Gothic == medieval.
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GametimeUK
Member
You can make a pond because you haven't got enough water to make a river. Doesn't change the fact the end result was a pond.
Exactly. Just look at the architecture of elden ring when they had higher polygon budgets
"Too gothic". you tell somebody who doesn't know better that that first image is from DeS Remake and they would believe you.
Or you can try to make a fake river by digging a small trench with a spade but you would never match a canal made with better tools at your disposal later down the line. A pond and a river aren't the same thing. Boletaria Palace is still a palace in both, one created with a good budget and polycount and another without.
Nickolaidas
Member
"The remake's soundtrack is just generic orchestral slop!"
- Remake's OST literally sounds closer to other FROM games' OSTs than the original Demon's Souls itself.
Which begs the question: Is Demon's Souls on PS3 the way it is because that was Miyazaki's intent? Or because they didn't have the budget, the manpower and the tech knowledge to make it closer to the remake? Because if you look upon Bloodborne, Dark Souls III, and Elder Ring, they look more similar to the remake than they do with the DS PS3 version.
"It doesn't matter what Miyazaki intended and how much of his vision was compromised due to budget and tech experience, all that matters is how close to the original the remake is".
That's like saying that the Gamecube remake of Resident Evil fails artistically because zombies who didn't have hair in the PSX version now have in the GC version which completely destroys Capcom's original vision of portraying 90% of the umbrella staff as bald people. Or how the gameplay is completely altered in the GC remake because zombies can now open doors during gameplay, and not just in that one basement cutscene which 'ruins the gameplay essence of the original containing every zombie in a single room'. And don't get me started on the 'crimson heads'. wtf is that bullshit? Why are they constantly adding stuff that weren't in the original and completely ruin the 'whole point of the experience'?
I can understand criticism in remakes like say, Final Fantasy VII where both story, visuals, gameplay mechanics and overall feel is completely revamped to the point of feeling unrecognizable to the purists, but people blowing a fuse because the flamelurker's face isn't looking like it's melted wax anymore, or Boletaria having vines around the castle's pillars is just ... ugh.
- Remake's OST literally sounds closer to other FROM games' OSTs than the original Demon's Souls itself.
Which begs the question: Is Demon's Souls on PS3 the way it is because that was Miyazaki's intent? Or because they didn't have the budget, the manpower and the tech knowledge to make it closer to the remake? Because if you look upon Bloodborne, Dark Souls III, and Elder Ring, they look more similar to the remake than they do with the DS PS3 version.
"It doesn't matter what Miyazaki intended and how much of his vision was compromised due to budget and tech experience, all that matters is how close to the original the remake is".
That's like saying that the Gamecube remake of Resident Evil fails artistically because zombies who didn't have hair in the PSX version now have in the GC version which completely destroys Capcom's original vision of portraying 90% of the umbrella staff as bald people. Or how the gameplay is completely altered in the GC remake because zombies can now open doors during gameplay, and not just in that one basement cutscene which 'ruins the gameplay essence of the original containing every zombie in a single room'. And don't get me started on the 'crimson heads'. wtf is that bullshit? Why are they constantly adding stuff that weren't in the original and completely ruin the 'whole point of the experience'?
I can understand criticism in remakes like say, Final Fantasy VII where both story, visuals, gameplay mechanics and overall feel is completely revamped to the point of feeling unrecognizable to the purists, but people blowing a fuse because the flamelurker's face isn't looking like it's melted wax anymore, or Boletaria having vines around the castle's pillars is just ... ugh.
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