Support NeoGAF

[Meier]

It seemed like they did this with the last two DLC as well to an extent but it wasn't as bad. I played like a day or two when the Gjallanhorn (sp) was available to snag and was unable to do a ton of stuff since I didn't have either of the DLC. Hopefully they fix the strike stuff -- as someone who didn't play the last two, I was kind of hoping I'd get to try them and at least at a moderately difficult level but it seems unlikely at best now.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I think it takes a special kind of cognitive dissonance to pretend like vanilla players have lost nothing, simply because the levels themselves are still available to play in the game.

It's borderline disingenuous to suggest that the Daily Heroic, Weekly, and Nightfall were completely expendable game modes. These are literally the only PvE modes worth playing in Destiny, outside the raids and the Vanguard lists (which, of course, are mostly gone now). I seriously can't believe that anyone familiar with Destiny is pretending otherwise.

It's not the endgame anymore because the endgame has moved on--I get that. But why could they not just leave in the now "lower level" heroic and nightfall strikes for Vanilla players? There are times when engine updates necessitate content changes, but removing features that have been in since day 1 is an objectively shitty practice, even if it is motivated by a tech constraint.

And can someone refresh my memory: the Lvl 26 and Lvl 28 Vanguard lists (which came through DLC) were available to all players, or just DLC buyers?

 

[FyreWulff]

I know, but levelling to 34 doesn't actually help you if you're stuck with uncommon or rare weaponry and armour.

You can get Legendaries and Exotics that max out at year 1 content values.

The Legacy strike playlist is bugged right now, but it's supposed to give you drops. They noted it in the pre-release patch notes.

 

[B_Spooky13]

No. The content is still there. It's only stuff like Nightfall and Heroic strikes that are gone. You can still play all the strikes, missions and raids that were there before TTK released. I really don't think this is a big deal. The biggest issue is the fact that there are wandering enemies who are unbeatable at level 34.

Like I get that but Nightfalls and Heroics are a little needed for players. I mean that is content being taken away since I cant get to lvl 40.

See I could understand if they did a totally different setting for lvl 40's like Ultra Nightfall and Mega Heroic.. or whatever I suck at naming shit.. I just dont understand why you have to take away from a fan base only because you raised the lvl cap. Let people have what they've always had and let people who buy the DLC get more.

 

[secondspace]

It felt like some progression was still possible without the last two DLCs, mainly by playing Iron Banner. This does feel like the end of the road though. I've had a lot of play out of the game, so I'm not too bothered. It does feel quite shady from Bungie, but as others have said, they have form for this type of thing.

The it's an MMO defence is probably the best, but undermined by all the people who constantly claim that it's not an MMO.

 

[Mindwipe]

You can get Legendaries and Exotics that max out at year 1 content values.

The Legacy strike playlist is bugged right now, but it's supposed to give you drops. They noted it in the pre-release patch notes.

Yeah, but that's my point.

While it's bugged, you can't. There's literally no mechanism. "You can but it's bugged so it doesn't work" is indistinguishable from "can't".

 

[Anton Sugar]

Also, requoting this for the new page:

As an MMO developer, this is woefully incorrect. Our conversion rates for expansions are usually only between 40-60% of active players, depending on the lifetime of the product.

In 8 years, across 3 MMOs, I have yet to see a circumstance where keeping existing content available was 'not cost effective'. It costs literally nothing to not touch content. But it does cost something to remove or change content. Someone has to go in and actually flip switches and unhook data. And then someone has to test it. There's really no reason to do it, at all, unless you are intentionally converting something to the new max level. And even then, more often than not, there's very few good reasons to remove the old version.

Any decent MMO developer is going to keep in mind existing players. Any changes we make to level-based skill-systems or itemization always should take into account that a decent chunk of your player base could still be on the previous versions/expansions of your product. Usually this means you end up overpowered, because we don't re-balance the content to reflect the power increases that such changes always ultimately entail. But you (almost) never remove access to old progression content and items, if only to leave a treadmill and ramp for your non-converting players into a potential future expansion purchase. Looking at just non-converting players, I have to assume that if you haven't converted over to the expansion content you have a reason for doing so. Removing your progression treadmill isn't going to get you to convert, it's going to piss you off and have you drop out of the game. But if I can keep you on that treadmill, there's a chance - and statistically a good one - that eventually you will convert to the expansion, or a future expansion. I want you to keep playing, because as long as you are playing, there's the option for you to purchase into DLC and expansions. Removing your incentive to play at your current buy-in does not, as far as metric data suggests, get you to increase your buy-in; it gets you to quit playing.

Encouraging players to purchase the expansion by offering the new content, new levels, new items, and new experiences is one thing. Forcing players to purchase an expansion because you've locked out old content, features, or game play systems is the shittiest version of pain-point conversion there is.

 

[Two Words]

This is indefensible. Why can't Bungie improve this game without implementing some gross business decision along with the good changes?

 

[Mindwipe]

No one in here is even acknowledging it as a bug though, it's all "Bungie is fucking over people and taking away leveling progress". It's a bug, and it'll be fixed. What will you have to moan about once it's fixed?

Once it's fixed it's fixed (still shitty as being entirely RNG based rather than having a progression mechanism, but still, fixed). But the notion "no one is even acknowledging it as a bug" is completely false. People are. That it's a bug is, frankly, irrelevant. Especially given the amount of times Bungie has let bugs in Destiny fester for literally months on end.

Xur is currently in town right now still selling year one engrams. Swing and a miss.

For 31 SC. Holy shit.

Slow clap.

 

[FyreWulff]

Yeah, but that's my point.

While it's bugged, you can't. There's literally no mechanism. "You can but it's bugged so it doesn't work" is indistinguishable from "can't".

They drop by other methods. The "easiest" method is bugged right now.

Vanilla sources:

Engram drops from enemies

Xur purchase

(bugged) strike playlist

Crucible drops

Taken patrol events (available to everyone)

Vault of Glass runs

Dark Below:

Crota runs (which you can solo a lot of)

House of Wolves:

Prison of Elders

 

[Jito]

Once it's fixed it's fixed (still shitty as being entirely RNG based rather than having a progression mechanism, but still, fixed). But the notion "no one is even acknowledging it as a bug" is completely false. People are. That it's a bug is, frankly, irrelevant. Especially given the amount of times Bungie has let bugs in Destiny fester for literally months on end.



For 31 SC. Holy shit.

Slow clap.

Coins are dropping like hot cakes since the update, I had more coins than I've ever had for Xur this week. What price would you rather have them at? You do realise he's meant to be a once a week get an uber piece of gear kinda guy, not buy everything he has in stock.

It being a bug isn't irrelevant, people are acting like Bungie are purposefully stopping players from getting new gear from the strike playlist, which isn't true. Hopefully it gets fixed quicker than some of the past bugs. And see above anyway, still plenty of methods of getting gear drops without the one bugged playlist.

 

[Zero315]

For 31 SC. Holy shit.

Slow clap.

Xur hasn't sold exotic weapon engrams before, and the straight up exotic weapons he sold costed like 17 strange coins.

Have you not played 2.0? Strange coins drop like fucking candy now, I'm currently sitting on 147.

 

[Broadbandito]

So this is the OFFICIAL LIST of what changed for vanilla. And don't forget vanilla players received TDB and HOW Crucible maps and Strikes for no charge.

 

[Two Words]

So this is the OFFICIAL LIST of what changed for vanilla. And don't forget vanilla players received TDB and HOW Crucible maps and Strikes for no charge.

Love that passive voice. Instead of saying they can't do any of the daily/weekly stuff strikes/missions, they say it will be set to 40. Instead of saying they can't buy gear, they say Year 1 gear won't be sold.

 

[Mindwipe]

Xur hasn't sold exotic weapon engrams before, and the straight up exotic weapons he sold costed like 17 strange coins.

Have you not played 2.0? Strange coins drop like fucking candy now, I'm currently sitting on 147.

I've had two since TTK dropped.

My suspicion is that the drop rate is only applicable in TTK activities.

 

[Straight Edge]

Solution: buy from best buy with GCU when it eventually goes on sale in a month or so.

 

[firehawk12]

If they were smart, at this point they should just give Destiny 1 away for free and consider it a long demo to get people to buy the expansions (since you need to buy them all anyway). Vanilla Destiny offers nothing else.

 

[Jito]

I've had two since TTK dropped.

My suspicion is that the drop rate is only applicable in TTK activities.

Nah they drop from everything now, enemies, engrams, reward packages, bounty rewards, buy them from Xur with motes of light (I don't know if this is new). How much have you played since TTK came out to test this theory of yours?

 

[void_if_removed]

There's literally no mechanism.

Apart from raids, poe, vanguard and faction packages and random drops in the world.

 

[BokehKing]

Gating off nightfalls, dailies and most of the old strike lists is incredibly shitty

So we get a boat load of new content, yet the nightfall should still be old content?

Even if you were able to access content you didn't pay for... You expect to get the same rewards people who paid for it did?


Most importantly, your 150 light level in a nightfall would get you crushed...

So yeah, buy the DLC and level up I say

 

[Krappadizzle]

So we get a boat load of new content, yet the nightfall should still be old content?

Even if you were able to access content you didn't pay for... You expect to get the same rewards people who paid for it did?


Most importantly, your 150 light level in a nightfall would get you crushed...

So yeah, buy the DLC and level up I say

Again. People aren't asking for more than what they payed for. Gating off old content does nothing but force the hand of players. Especially evident with your buy DLC and level up comment.

See:

As an MMO developer, this is woefully incorrect. Our conversion rates for expansions are usually only between 40-60% of active players, depending on the lifetime of the product.

In 8 years, across 3 MMOs, I have yet to see a circumstance where keeping existing content available was 'not cost effective'. It costs literally nothing to not touch content. But it does cost something to remove or change content. Someone has to go in and actually flip switches and unhook data. And then someone has to test it. There's really no reason to do it, at all, unless you are intentionally converting something to the new max level. And even then, more often than not, there's very few good reasons to remove the old version.

Any decent MMO developer is going to keep in mind existing players. Any changes we make to level-based skill-systems or itemization always should take into account that a decent chunk of your player base could still be on the previous versions/expansions of your product. Usually this means you end up overpowered, because we don't re-balance the content to reflect the power increases that such changes always ultimately entail. But you (almost) never remove access to old progression content and items, if only to leave a treadmill and ramp for your non-converting players into a potential future expansion purchase. Looking at just non-converting players, I have to assume that if you haven't converted over to the expansion content you have a reason for doing so. Removing your progression treadmill isn't going to get you to convert, it's going to piss you off and have you drop out of the game. But if I can keep you on that treadmill, there's a chance - and statistically a good one - that eventually you will convert to the expansion, or a future expansion. I want you to keep playing, because as long as you are playing, there's the option for you to purchase into DLC and expansions. Removing your incentive to play at your current buy-in does not, as far as metric data suggests, get you to increase your buy-in; it gets you to quit playing.

Encouraging players to purchase the expansion by offering the new content, new levels, new items, and new experiences is one thing. Forcing players to purchase an expansion because you've locked out old content, features, or game play systems is the shittiest version of pain-point conversion there is.

 

[KiefbladeMaster]

Again. People aren't asking for more than what they payed for. Gating off old content does nothing but force the hand of players. Especially evident with your buy DLC and level up comment.

It isn't gated off, nightfall and heroic's were always designed for level cap -- if you can't get to level 40 you can't do them. It's asinine to expect to be able to at level 34 with a low light level. Vanilla players have actually gained content with the DLC maps that have been added to Crucible playlists.

Nightfall's and heroics are the equivalent of roulette's in FFXIV. You couldn't do the expert roulette until purchasing Heavensward either (because, surprise, you wouldn't be high enough to do the content - though you can still queue for any dungeon you still have access to by itself), this is so commonplace that I'm honestly surprised this thread has gone on so long about something so trivial.

 

[t0rment]

Im not even mad at Bungie, they made sure they nurtured a fanbase that would defend every bad move and I have nothing but respect for that kind of hustle.

they did. a genius move, they don't even need to say anything, their own fans defends and endorse this kind of scheme.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Im not even mad at Bungie, they made sure they nurtured a fanbase that would defend every bad move and I have nothing but respect for that kind of hustle.

Seriously, man. Even completely removed from the game (which, with The Taken King, is finally living up to its expectations), it's fascinating.

 

[Krappadizzle]

It isn't gated off, nightfall and heroic's were always designed for level cap -- if you can't get to level 40 you can't do them. It's asinine to expect to be able to at level 34 with a low light level. Vanilla players have actually gained content with the DLC maps that have been added to Crucible playlists.

Nightfall's and heroics are the equivalent of roulette's in FFXIV. You couldn't do the expert roulette until purchasing Heavensward either (because, surprise, you wouldn't be high enough to do the content - though you can still queue for any dungeon you still have access to by itself), this is so commonplace that I'm honestly surprised this thread has gone on so long about something so trivial.

Are you really using an MMO that needed to be relaunched twice to make your point?

Even that aside, it's not so commonplace.

 

[Lothars]

If they were smart, at this point they should just give Destiny 1 away for free and consider it a long demo to get people to buy the expansions (since you need to buy them all anyway). Vanilla Destiny offers nothing else.

I believe it's been confirmed by some people that have played the demo is basically Vanilla Destiny. I haven't tested it myself but I am curious if that's the case.

 

[EGM1966]

As an MMO developer, this is woefully incorrect. Our conversion rates for expansions are usually only between 40-60% of active players, depending on the lifetime of the product.

In 8 years, across 3 MMOs, I have yet to see a circumstance where keeping existing content available was 'not cost effective'. It costs literally nothing to not touch content. But it does cost something to remove or change content. Someone has to go in and actually flip switches and unhook data. And then someone has to test it. There's really no reason to do it, at all, unless you are intentionally converting something to the new max level. And even then, more often than not, there's very few good reasons to remove the old version.

Any decent MMO developer is going to keep in mind existing players. Any changes we make to level-based skill-systems or itemization always should take into account that a decent chunk of your player base could still be on the previous versions/expansions of your product. Usually this means you end up overpowered, because we don't re-balance the content to reflect the power increases that such changes always ultimately entail. But you (almost) never remove access to old progression content and items, if only to leave a treadmill and ramp for your non-converting players into a potential future expansion purchase. Looking at just non-converting players, I have to assume that if you haven't converted over to the expansion content you have a reason for doing so. Removing your progression treadmill isn't going to get you to convert, it's going to piss you off and have you drop out of the game. But if I can keep you on that treadmill, there's a chance - and statistically a good one - that eventually you will convert to the expansion, or a future expansion. I want you to keep playing, because as long as you are playing, there's the option for you to purchase into DLC and expansions. Removing your incentive to play at your current buy-in does not, as far as metric data suggests, get you to increase your buy-in; it gets you to quit playing.

Encouraging players to purchase the expansion by offering the new content, new levels, new items, and new experiences is one thing. Forcing players to purchase an expansion because you've locked out old content, features, or game play systems is the shittiest version of pain-point conversion there is.

Thank you. And might I saw what a nice Annie Hall moment you gave me making this reply.

 

[Camp Freddie]

Another problem is that you know they'll do the same thing when the next expansion is released, which is likely to be another overpriced piece of micro-sized shit like the Dark Below/House of Wolves.

I've been thinking of getting the legendary edition, but I know that by the time I level up enough to do the interesting/rewarding weekly/nightfall content, they'll raise the level cap for the next DLC and prevent me from playing it again.

 

[secondspace]

The current demo does seem to replace my vanilla disc perfectly. No idea if it's time limited.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Like I get that but Nightfalls and Heroics are a little needed for players. I mean that is content being taken away since I cant get to lvl 40.

See I could understand if they did a totally different setting for lvl 40's like Ultra Nightfall and Mega Heroic.. or whatever I suck at naming shit.. I just dont understand why you have to take away from a fan base only because you raised the lvl cap. Let people have what they've always had and let people who buy the DLC get more.

I totally get where you're coming from but with the expansion now the loot hunt in vanilla destiny becomes totally pointless. Why would you keep grinding out the game if you only had the vanilla content? Unless you need the Heroic/Nightfall strikes to get gear for the raid? I'm not sure, perhaps someone can let me know if this is the case.

 

[joecanada]

they did. a genius move, they don't even need to say anything, their own fans defends and endorse this kind of scheme.

honestly most products have staunch defenders, I mean try saying "iphone is underpowered and overpriced" in a related forum lol.....

the question is how many will actually buy into it... if it's a lot of people I don't know why they didn't just go with a monthly sub really.... the game is already like 100 bucks per year ...

I can't fault them for trying but hey what do I know I always thought WoW was a ripoff too but then talking to people and finding out how much they played......... maybe not. so maybe people find value in what destiny offers? I had fun with it but definitely did not see the value.

I'm pretty happy to just wait on a lot of games now, playstation weekly sales have been great.

 

[BokehKing]

Well this has been going on since the first dlc, this is the way this game works, so I'm surprised people are acting like this is new

Is it shitty? I guess...
But it's not my concern because, imo if you're not playing the latest content, there is no reason to play at all.

 

[Lalalandia]

So basically the game I paid for is gone and I'm left with vestigial stumps of the better experience I paid €100 for last year but need to €40 more for to access this year?

It's pretty simple if you haven't upgraded you should be able to run right up to 34 and obtain the light levels necessary to beat all content that you've paid for. Having every vendor flip you the bird for not having upgraded is really shitty, having the entire world turned into a DLC ad (free roam tasks that cannot be completed w/o TTK gear) is shitty, and being stomped by high level enemies you can't deal with because you haven't paid is shitty.

If Bungie could not offer their existing customers the Destiny 2.0 experience without breaking the experience then they should have run two server farms. That is of course all but unsustainable economically so they chose another path, make the changes and turn the entire game into a dangling carrot for more DLC

 

[rokkerkory]

Bungie my sweet love, I am divorcing you

 

[Seth Enosh]

I totally get where you're coming from but with the expansion now the loot hunt in vanilla destiny becomes totally pointless. Why would you keep grinding out the game if you only had the vanilla content? Unless you need the Heroic/Nightfall strikes to get gear for the raid? I'm not sure, perhaps someone can let me know if this is the case.

You don't need heroic strikes to gear up for the raid, legendary and good rare armor/gear dropped plentifully in Crucible pre TTK and presumably this will be the case for the level 20 strike playlist once the bug is fixed. VoG only requires level 26 anyway and now players can get to 34 using just experience.

 

[Kinyou]

Bungie my sweet love, I am divorcing you

I remember the days when Halo 2 map packs would go free about two months after release to avoid splitting the player base too much

 

[FyreWulff]

It's pretty simple if you haven't upgraded you should be able to run right up to 34 and obtain the light levels necessary to beat all content that you've paid for.

This is literally what you can do

 

[KiefbladeMaster]

Are you really using an MMO that needed to be relaunched twice to make your point?

Even that aside, it's not so commonplace.

Haha, so could you also play the new heroic dungeons in WoW without purchasing the expansion? That's how it's been with every single expansion and it's the biggest in the business. You're expecting to be able to play content that you cannot actually complete.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Well this has been going on since the first dlc, this is the way this game works, so I'm surprised people are acting like this is new

Is it shitty? I guess...
But it's not my concern because, imo if you're not playing the latest content, there is no reason to play at all.

It is shitty. It doesn't matter that it's been happening since the first DLC. You're a consumer--anti-consumer business practices should be your concern, IMO.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I remember the days when Halo 2 map packs would go free about two months after release to avoid splitting the player base too much

They started to do that with Halo 3, and the Heroic map pack. Microsoft put an end to that for all subsequent map packs.

They've gone back to this model with Destiny. When The House of Wolves released, the Crucible maps from The Dark Below went free for everyone. When The Taken King came out, the House of Wolves Crucible maps, as well as the strikes from HoW and TDB, went free for everyone.

 

[GusZamboni]

many friends of mine who didnt boughted the expansions from year one were looking to jump in the game now with the taken king ... when they find out that they would need to buy all of them AND the Taken King to play, they gone with mad max or metal gear. Bungie lost like 5 in my friend list. if we count the total players who was in the same position, how much money did they didnt earned from this BS

ps: the game is fantastic and i am enjoying the hell out of it

 

[Lalalandia]

This is literally what you can do

Except I can only try them at vanilla difficulty, is it really that hard to create two loot tables so I can try challenging myself? I mean even if the daily, weekly or NF roll back around to the content I do own they'll be lvl 40 variants.

The fixes aren't hard here, just make a Year 1 loot table, I can play on and they won't be giving me shit I haven't paid for. The only reason is that there isn't a second 'Year 1' loot table is that it acts as a really scuzzy upsell for TTK

 

[Kinyou]

They've gone back to this model with Destiny. When The House of Wolves released, the Crucible maps from The Dark Below went free for everyone. When The Taken King came out, the House of Wolves Crucible maps, as well as the strikes from HoW and TDB, went free for everyone.

Oh,I didn't know that. That's certainly a good gesture

 

[Kalentan]

many friends of mine who didnt boughted the expansions from year one were looking to jump in the game now with the taken king ... when they find out that they would need to buy all of them AND the Taken King to play, they gone with mad max or metal gear. Bungie lost like 5 in my friend list. if we count the total players who was in the same position, how much money did they didnt earned from this BS

ps: the game is fantastic and i am enjoying the hell out of it

Considering the taken king was the most downloaded title on day-one on PSN and Destiny had more players online than launch day. I'm pretty sure they made quite a bit.

Because most active players already bought TTK.

 

[Jito]

Oh,I didn't know that. That's certainly a good gesture

Sigh, the amount of people hurling shit around without knowing what they're talking about. Par for the course for Destiny as usual.

It is shitty. It doesn't matter that it's been happening since the first DLC. You're a consumer--anti-consumer business practices should be your concern, IMO.

I don't see it as anti consumer, they've taken a subscription model and modeled it into a one time payment, much better if you ask me then shelling out money every month to keep the game updated. Who's it anti consumer too? The people who have no intention of keeping up to date with the game or the drive by shit posters who haven't touched the game since launch? No real loss there then.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I don't see it as anti consumer, they've taken a subscription model and modeled it into a one time payment, much better if you ask me then shelling out money every month to keep the game updated. Who's it anti consumer too? The people who have no intention of keeping up to date with the game or the drive by shit posters who haven't touched the game since launch? No real loss there then.

How is removing content that's been in the game since Day 1 and putting it behind DLC (albeit at much higher levels) not anti-consumer?

They are literally moving something that was a part of an initial $60 purchase and putting it behind another, separate purchase.

It doesn't matter that the consumer isn't "keeping up to date" (which is a ridiculous way of phrasing it--these are optional DLC and expansion packs, not simply a patch or game update).

 

[Jito]

How is removing content that's been in the game since Day 1 and putting it behind DLC (albeit at much higher levels) not anti-consumer?

They are literally moving something that was a part of an initial $60 purchase and putting it behind another, separate purchase.

It doesn't matter that the consumer isn't "keeping up to date" (which is a ridiculous way of phrasing it--these are optional DLC and expansion packs, not simply a patch or game update).

They've not removed content, they've changed some playlists. This has been repeated again and again for pages now. They've changed how people grind for their (not) endgame gear now.

And what I'm saying is, no they aren't optional if you actually want to keep up to date with the latest state of the game. It's a monthly sub bundled into a one time expansion.

 

[Anton Sugar]

They've not removed content, they've changed some playlists. This has been repeated again and again for pages now. They've changed how people grind for their (not) endgame gear now.

And what I'm saying is, no they aren't optional if you actually want to keep up to date with the latest state of the game. It's a monthly sub bundled into a one time expansion.

"Changed some playlists" is a spin. Like I said earlier, the Daily, Weekly, and Nightfalls have been cornerstones of the PvE game, outside of Raids, since Day 1. This is a point that Destiny diehards have fallen back on time and again in threads here on GAF: "There isn't a lot of content, but I have so much fun each week playing the Daily/Weekly/Nightfall, it doesn't matter." And now that's gone.

I don't care that they made the change because of how they updated their endgame gear--that's their problem to deal with. What they chose, with no alternative, it shitty.

Y'all seem really sold on this "it's a monthly sub bundled into a one time expansion" concept, but it's really just your attempt to justify Bungie's content and pricing structure. Where has Bungie officially made comparisons to it being a monthly sub? They've only ever billed these as add-ons/expansions to the base game.

 

[Special C]

This is why FTP games are the way to go.

 

[Allnamestakenlol]

Great article -- totally on point.