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Digital Foundry claims PS5 doesn't exhibit any evidence of VRS(Variable Rate Shading) from PS5 showcase.

rnlval

Member
Yeap the limit which a chip scale depends of others factors... for example a 40CUs chip scale better clock/performance than a 80CUs.
If we will enter in detailed data you will see even between same chip has those that scale better and others that not... AMD/Intel sells these chips at expensive price labeled for high overclock.

One thing is certain if Cerny choose that clock to PS5 that means the chip is comfortable running at that speed in both performance and lifespan... it is a consumer product after all and they don't want they breaking to use warranty.
BiG NAVI with 80 CU on PC has budget of 300 watts minimum from PC's Graphics Card PCIe power spec.

R9-390X (44 CU with quad geometry/rasterization and 64 ROPS at 1050 Mhz, and 512 bit bus GDDR5)'s performance scaled is nearly 2X from 7870 GE (20 CU with duel geometry/rasterization and 32 ROPS at 1Ghz, and 256-bit bus GDDR5).

R9-290X/R9-390X ~= two 7870 GE super-glued together.

NAVI 10's RX 5600 XT was able to keep 64 ROPS despite a reduced 192-bit bus with 336 GB/s.

RDNA has DCU, hence RX 5700 XT has 20 DCUs which is equivalent to 40 CUs in GCN.

Big NAVI has 40 DCU or 80 CU in GCN equivalent. PC's Big NAVI 40 DCU is like RDNA era Hawaii XT 44 CU GCN.
 
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Deto

Banned
XSX GPU has up to 560 GB/s and 10GB storage for framebuffer render targets.

Framebuffer render targets consumes the highest memory bandwidth with relatively small memory storage requirements.

Try again.


like Geforce 660.


And when it used up all the memory, there was a huge loss of performance.
Interesting that the DF never questioned whether this is a case with the xbox sx.

Drops to ~ 400GB / s

Memory bandwitch / TF: PS5 and SX are the same.
Memory / CU: PS5> SX
unified memory> divided memory.

only advantage of Xbox SX: use UP TO 10GB, which is impossible because the OS is in the remaining 6GB slow.
 

rnlval

Member
We will definitely have an AMD graphics card very similar to the PS5 GPU, 36CUs 2.23Ghz in the RDNA2 line.

This was said almost as a fact by Cerny at the PS5 presentation.

I wonder if when AMD announces this, DF will start burping "RDNA2 is fake, this clock increase is useless"
Well, "40 CU RDNA 2" would be very important for AMD's mobile RDNA 2 with DX12U plans on the PC side.
 

rnlval

Member
like Geforce 660.


And when it used up all the memory, there was a huge loss of performance.
Interesting that the DF never questioned whether this is a case with the xbox sx.

Drops to ~ 400GB / s

Memory bandwitch / TF: PS5 and SX are the same.
Memory / CU: PS5> SX
unified memory> divided memory.

only advantage of Xbox SX: use UP TO 10GB, which is impossible because the OS is in the remaining 6GB slow.
For similar TFLOPS, RX 5600 XT OC (NAVI 10 36 CU) with 336 GB/s has about 8% performance lost relative to RX 5700 (36 CU) with 448 GB/s.

NAVI 10 GPU has 4MB L2 cache connected to ROPS, TMU, Geometry to mitigate reduced memory bandwidth for RX 5600 XT. NAVI 10 is an important chip for AMD's mobile PC GPU e.g. RX 5600M to RX 5700M segments.

Using PS4's example

OhSjiCV.jpg


Render targets have relatively small memory storage with the highest memory bandwidth usage.

For XSX, render targets needs to be in 10 GB's 560 GB/s area.
 
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Deto

Banned
For similar TFLOPS, RX 5600 XT OC (NAVI 10 36 CU) with 336 GB/s has about 8% performance lost relative to RX 5700 (36 CU) with 448 GB/s.

NAVI 10 GPU has 4MB L2 cache connected to ROPS, TMU, Geometry to mitigate reduced memory bandwidth for RX 5600 XT. NAVI 10 is an important chip for AMD's mobile PC GPU.

We return to the metric of RDNA1


And from what you wrote here, MS invented magic memory. All the advantages of unified memory with all the advantages of divided memory.
 
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rnlval

Member
We return to the metric of RDNA1


And from what you wrote here, MS invented magic memory. All the advantages of unified memory with all the advantages of divided memory.
Don't expect miracles from "RDNA 2" when XSX's GPU has up to 560 GB/s memory bandwidth rivaling NVIDIA's RTX 2080 with 448GB/s via Gears 5's built-in benchmark.

AMD/MS is throwing higher memory bandwidth against RTX 2080 with mainstream 256-bit PCB BOM cost. NVIDIA is laughing at AMD's inferior profitability and higher BOM cost. Hint: NVIDIA's real-time memory compression is still superior. LOL

Where's AMD's RTX 2080 efficiency? I'm still waiting for RTX 2080 efficiency from AMD.

I expect more from AMD. LOL

Ampere RTX is a bloodbath on AMD. NVIDIA is not Intel.
 
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rnlval

Member
Are you comparing overclocking RDNA1 with clock increase achieved with a new architecture (RDNA2)?

Will I overclock the 2080TI and say that increasing the clock on the Ampere doesn't improve anything?


I only have two options about DF in this case:

a) intellectual dishonesty.

b) stupidity
What you failed to understand is RDNA 2 didn't match RTX 2080 with 448 GB/s level efficiency.
 

rnlval

Member
PS4 Pro actually has more ROPS than X1X but that actually exceed bandwidth.

Do you have details about the extra 2 MB render cache on X1X?

The difference between that comparison is the next generation systems is that in the previous case the other design had an extra 12 months of R&D put into it and thus is like another mini GCN revision.

We will see, quite confident that you will see the number of ROPS and ACE’s being the same in both consoles. Not an area MS needed to waste money on.
PS4 Pro has more ROPS when compared to X1X, but PS4 Pro's ROPS design is older while X1X GPU ahs 2MB render cache for its ROPS coupled with higher memory bandwidth.

PS4 Pro GPU has higher memory bandwidth bottlenecks when compared to X1X GPU.
 

Xplainin

Banned
XSX is using 52 CUs compared to PS5's 36. Either higher CU count, or higher speed. Pick one. Each console took a different route.
My point is that DF did a test using two GPUs in the same family, with the same RAM, same tflops etc, just one had a higher clock and less Cu's, the other had a lower clock and more Cu's. The GPU which has more CUs but lower clock performed better.
Take that as you will.
 

Xplainin

Banned
Nope... you really need some read compression classes I guess.

Each chip has it own limit until where the clock and performance increases in similar proportion... after that the clock increases and the performance not catch at the same pace until it stops to increase.

RX 5700 test with 2.1Ghz is already over that limit making DF test useless for any conclusion about RDNA 2 that can go way over 2.2Ghz fine.


Wrong again.

RDNA 2 40CUs chips has it own clock limit where the performance not scale.
RDNA 2 56CUs chips has it own clock limit where the performance not scale.
RDNA 2 80CUs chips has it own clock limit where the performance not scale.

They are after all different chips with different sizes.
MS is probably very comfortable with 1.85Ghz.
Let's see who is right when the new AMD GPUs come out.
We Will find out soon enough.
 

sinnergy

Member
My point is that DF did a test using two GPUs in the same family, with the same RAM, same tflops etc, just one had a higher clock and less Cu's, the other had a lower clock and more Cu's. The GPU which has more CUs but lower clock performed better.
Take that as you will.
That’s how it works , more transistors, more hardware , more performance.

What Sony did is maximize their Architecture so that it’s more efficient. But a 10 TF GPU will not outperform a 12TF GPU.

Sony did a admirable job with the hardware at hand.
 

NeroDaGod

Member
Have to gonna buy XSX then. Blur is my most important part of every game by far.

Sorry to the Sony Fanboys. You will come in third this gen

Yeah sure bud, Sony will come third to you and all the other 10 people in the world, Sony fanboys are raging.
 
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Xplainin

Banned
That’s how it works , more transistors, more hardware , more performance.

What Sony did is maximize their Architecture so that it’s more efficient. But a 10 TF GPU will not outperform a 12TF GPU.

Sony did a admirable job with the hardware at hand.
Oh for sure. What I wrote had nothing to do with spanking Sony. It was merely an observation that DF did a video on it.
Its good to see Sony do what they did.
 

ethomaz

Banned
BiG NAVI with 80 CU on PC has budget of 300 watts minimum from PC's Graphics Card PCIe power spec.

R9-390X (44 CU with quad geometry/rasterization and 64 ROPS at 1050 Mhz, and 512 bit bus GDDR5)'s performance scaled is nearly 2X from 7870 GE (20 CU with duel geometry/rasterization and 32 ROPS at 1Ghz, and 256-bit bus GDDR5).

R9-290X/R9-390X ~= two 7870 GE super-glued together.

NAVI 10's RX 5600 XT was able to keep 64 ROPS despite a reduced 192-bit bus with 336 GB/s.

RDNA has DCU, hence RX 5700 XT has 20 DCUs which is equivalent to 40 CUs in GCN.

Big NAVI has 40 DCU or 80 CU in GCN equivalent. PC's Big NAVI 40 DCU is like RDNA era Hawaii XT 44 CU GCN.
What a weird comparison...

GCN 1.0 (Pitcairn XT) vs GCN 2.0 (Grenada XT).

Or course R9 390X will scale better with clocks.
BTW R9 390X has 2.3x more compute power... it is a bit more than two 7870GHz.

What your point? My comment was obvious at the same Arch a 40CU chip scale clock higher than 80CU chip... that is already proved in a lot of benchmarks.

More compute units = less clock you can archive without heat and performance limits.
 
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ethomaz

Banned
My point is that DF did a test using two GPUs in the same family, with the same RAM, same tflops etc, just one had a higher clock and less Cu's, the other had a lower clock and more Cu's. The GPU which has more CUs but lower clock performed better.
Take that as you will.
Because they choose a clock where the performance doesn't scale well.
Why not make a test with clocks at 1500Mhz for example to avoid the issues with 2.1Ghz clocks in RDNA for example.

The test didn't archived their goal and it is useless for any type of conclusion.
 
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Zannrebel

Member
like Geforce 660.


And when it used up all the memory, there was a huge loss of performance.
Interesting that the DF never questioned whether this is a case with the xbox sx.

Drops to ~ 400GB / s

Memory bandwitch / TF: PS5 and SX are the same.
Memory / CU: PS5> SX
unified memory> divided memory.

only advantage of Xbox SX: use UP TO 10GB, which is impossible because the OS is in the remaining 6GB slow.
The drop in memory bandwidth proformance is only 40~50 GB/s when the 10 is exceeded. Nothing close to a drop down to 400GB/s. This was said by a dev of the other place.
 
Memory bandwitch / TF: PS5 and SX are the same.

Yet the XSX GPU can read more data in parallel across the bus on a given cycle (40 bytes) compared to PS5 GPU (32 bytes). Which means for any same amount of data both systems are reading from RAM through the GPU, the XSX does it faster because of the wider bus.

In other words, XSX's GPU bus gives it a 4:5 ratio over PS5's GPU when it comes to every fifth consecutive bus access (4 x 40 = 160, 5 = 32 = 160) in data transmission by the GPU across the memory bus, which helps a lot when dealing with large-ish (or larger) data objects in memory to have the GPU process (I know this explanation's a tad sloppy but I'm trying to hurry up to take care of some work).

Memory / CU: PS5> SX

Yet on XSX each CU can make more accesses across the bus per frame for data in a memory amount equivalent to the CU compared to PS5. See above.

unified memory> divided memory.

What do you mean by 'divided memory'. Clarify. On XSX the pools are not physically split, the partitions are virtualized by OS management.

There is no required shadow copying of data between the two pools just because CPU-bound tasks may take to one pool and GPU-bound tasks to the other pool. It's not equivalent to split memory pools of system RAM/VRAM on PC, or other consoles like XBO (DDR3/ESRAM), PS3, and almost every console older than those.

only advantage of Xbox SX: use UP TO 10GB, which is impossible because the OS is in the remaining 6GB slow.

OS being in the 6 GB pool doesn't prevent the GPU from accessing the full 10 GB of its optimized pool, this is dumb. This is like saying on PC a GPU card can't use its full VRAM because the OS is in system RAM. That's not how it works.

The location of the OS in terms of the virtualized pools has no impact on the amount of physical memory the GPU can address because the OS is still managing entire system resource accesses. The GPU is treated as a co-processor , not a central processor with its own OS and memory partition like in a dual-boot system (Linux on PS3 for example prevented that OS from accessing full system resources).

isn't the "geometry engine" whatever pretty much sony's vrs equivalent?

Not necessarily. They may have implemented VRS equivalent features in that part of the pipeline per their customizations, but Geometry Engine itself (as well as Primitive Shaders) were already present on earlier RDNA1 GPUs, so chances are high that XSX also has a Geometry Engine, but maybe AMD have it under a different name in newer GPUs? Primitive Shaders were present in RX Vega, FWIW.

Basically, Geometry Engine and Primitive Shaders (both also referenced in the Eurogamer article) are not Sony-coined terms; AMD was already using them from the start with RDNA1 GPUs and at least are likely using Geometry Engine still to describe that part of their GPUs in RDNA2 (Primitive Shaders have been replaced with Mesh Shaders). The functions of Geometry Shader have little in common with VRS, though.
 
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pawel86ck

Banned
VRS can improve performance drastically (up to 76% in 3dmark at 4K on 2070S), however picture quality takes a hit way too much. I thought VRS was only going to reduce shading on textures with the same colors and therefore I will be not able to tell the difference, however the difference can be clearly seen even on normal textures (fine details are clearly pixelated and you dont even have to move). IMO VRS is not worth it.

AI upscaling is way more exciting to me than VRS and I wonder if next gen consoles will support something similar to DLSS 2.0🤔
 

longdi

Banned
Who cares PS5 games look like this

dOgqVEN.gif

If there is 1 firm rumor we can all agree to.
SDK is way ahead of XDK.
And probably the developers working on it are too.

Then the focus on perfecting BC, believing and supporting the generations of games past.
These are the fundamental foundation of next gen gaming through subs services.

It is not hard to see why is why, no? 🤷‍♀️
 
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Izumar

Banned
Wouldn't the point of such feature be that there is no apparent use of it?
I think it will be visible in a still shot but they try to use it in places you aren't looking in motion.

I think it will be the kind of thing df zooms in and nit picks constantly.

Regardless AMD was talking it up today, which surprised me a bit.
 
I think it will be visible in a still shot but they try to use it in places you aren't looking in motion.

I think it will be the kind of thing df zooms in and nit picks constantly.

Regardless AMD was talking it up today, which surprised me a bit.
With a good reconstruction technology (if they have something similar to dlss2) it could be pretty impressive.
 

sinnergy

Member
Oh my GOD.

SO MUCH THIS.

WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK IF IT'S 10 TF, 20 TF, 40 TF OR 125 TF.

What matters is what kind of games can the console make. And Demon's Souls, Ratchet and Spider-Man show us.

Until the XSX can do the same, I advise people to stop parroting useless numbers.
TF are meaningless!
 
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