Support NeoGAF

[Chobel]

LOL. That's what I don't get though. What's wrong with saying that you've balanced your hardware's design just right? It only seems like this is a problem because they're not beating or matching Sony on raw performance numbers, which kinda seems silly, don't you think? Cerny also thinks balance is important, he isn't mocked for saying it.

I mean, it isn't that unreasonable that they really do believe they've got a nice balanced design, is it? Hell, even I thought the design was a nice balance, and I was saying precisely this on here before E3! What else do these guys have if not balance? They sure as heck didn't go for raw performance muscle. Balance, if anything, seems like the right word for what they tried to go for with the system. Some disagree on that balance, others think it isn't as bad as people say it is.

There are other words beside balance is his comment like "the message changes again".

 

[Skeff]

Is it easier? I think this especially depends on the SDK - the architectural details could be well hidden if the SDK is good enough.

Yes, it's much easier as noted by many developers. Such as the 2 man team who ported the crew to ps4.

I believe a quote from a developer commenting on the xb1 tools was "horrible"

 

[BruiserBear]

LOL. That's what I don't get though. What's wrong with saying that you've balanced your hardware's design just right? It only seems like this is a problem because they're not beating or matching Sony on raw performance numbers, which kinda seems silly, don't you think? Cerny also thinks balance is important, he isn't mocked for saying it.

I mean, it isn't that unreasonable that they really do believe they've got a nice balanced design, is it? Hell, even I thought the design was a nice balance, and I was saying precisely this on here before E3! What else do these guys have if not balance? They sure as heck didn't go for raw performance muscle. Balance, if anything, seems like the right word for what they tried to go for with the system. Some disagree on that balance, others think it isn't as bad as people say it is.

Cerny isn't mocked because Cerny hasn't been lying, dancing, tweaking, and spinning since the day he unveiled the PS4. In other words, he still has credibility.

 

[TheHater]

Is it easier? I think this especially depends on the SDK - the architectural details could be well hidden if the SDK is good enough.

There has been numerous article quoting developer saying it is.

 

[Tripolygon]

LOL. That's what I don't get though. What's wrong with saying that you've balanced your hardware's design just right? It only seems like this is a problem because they're not beating or matching Sony on raw performance numbers, which kinda seems silly, don't you think? Cerny also thinks balance is important, he isn't mocked for saying it.

I mean, it isn't that unreasonable that they really do believe they've got a nice balanced design, is it? Hell, even I thought the design was a nice balance, and I was saying precisely this on here before E3! What else do these guys have if not balance? They sure as heck didn't go for raw performance muscle. Balance, if anything, seems like the right word for what they tried to go for with the system. Some disagree on that balance, others think it isn't as bad as people say it is.

I hate false equivalency.

Microsoft

Our system is balanced, add more CU and your system will be bottle-necked so therefore PS4 is not much powerful (see 14+4) because it is unbalance and our system is very very very balanced and adding more CU is pointless 12 is the magic number.

Sony

We designed our system to be balanced, we have tested it vigorously and have found no obvious bottleneck. Our system is SUPERCHARGED YO

You cannot call both statement equivalent just because they both use the word balance.

 

[Ricerocket]

LOL. That's what I don't get though. What's wrong with saying that you've balanced your hardware's design just right? It only seems like this is a problem because they're not beating or matching Sony on raw performance numbers, which kinda seems silly, don't you think? Cerny also thinks balance is important, he isn't mocked for saying it.

I mean, it isn't that unreasonable that they really do believe they've got a nice balanced design, is it? Hell, even I thought the design was a nice balance, and I was saying precisely this on here before E3! What else do these guys have if not balance? They sure as heck didn't go for raw performance muscle. Balance, if anything, seems like the right word for what they tried to go for with the system. Some disagree on that balance, others think it isn't as bad as people say it is.

The problem is because they were never about balance before and all about the power of the cloud! The near 300GB/s memory bandwidth!

Balance is a good thing but come on, the people who design both ps4/x1 are building a system to work as best as possible. There is no need to focus on telling people it's "balanced" like in that article says it like 50 times.

 

[c0de]

There has been numerous article quoting developer saying it is.

I think many said it is easy on PS4 and easier than PS3 which is not really a big accomplishment.

 

[Bundy]

Is it easier? I think this especially depends on the SDK - the architectural details could be well hidden if the SDK is good enough.

Easier in comparison to the XBone? Yes!

 

[c0de]

Yes, it's much easier as noted by many developers. Such as the 2 man team who ported the crew to ps4.

I believe a quote from a developer commenting on the xb1 tools was "horrible"

I would be surprised if it was horrible given how it was on 360 and now we are talking about x86, MS homeland.

 

[AzerPhire]

You guys realize that not once has anyone ever said the X1 is more powerful than the PS4 right? Just that the differences might not be as exaggerated as we have been led to believe.

And the only way that will show is when the games are actually released. Arguing percent differences and number differences is pretty meaningless until then.

 

[Finalizer]

Balance had been a frequently used word since it's unveiling, the Xbox.com pages even said it dating back to May.

It's been a keyword for MS, sure, but the question now is if they'll try to march it to the forefront of discussion as with "the power of the cloud" or whatever other nonsense they want to ingrain into folks' minds.

So, yeah, each company is going to lie to us and Digital Foundry has lost all credibility. Ugh.

To be fair, that's just Leadbetter dragging the name through the dirt. For the moment, I don't have a problem with any of the other writes. Just wish they'd nix the weak link.

So is it likely that this is potentially the source of the various rumours regarding poor yields? If they considered other possibilities than the upclocks but yields were too poor to go this way?

No, the yield rumors as made popular stemmed from CBOAT's comment in another thread and have to do with ESRAM, not the GPU and utilizing the redundant CUs.

 

[c0de]

Easier in comparison to the XBone? Yes!

So you have access to both and have written code for both systems?

 

[JWong]

Didn't know consoles needed balancing lol.

 

[Skeff]

I would be surprised if it was horrible given how it was on 360 and now we are talking about x86, MS homeland.

Well, I guess you'll have to take that up with the third party dev who works with the xb1 everyday.

 

[Biker19]

MS still has no idea they have created an overly expensive PC from 5 years ago with 32MB of essentially GDDR5. Big whoop. I nearly fell over when I saw the numbers and architecture of this system. How the hell can they try and make a next gen system using only DDR3? Blows my mind. The only explanation is that the multimedia functionality is the most important thing in this system to Microsoft. To gimp your system this badly and create such a massive bottleneck all because you wanted snapping and live fantasy sports updates on the TV means this was made as a multimedia device first and the gaming aspect came in a distant second in design.

This is likely why so far every X1 game is purely about high model detail. When it comes to effects or anything remotely resembling next-gen tech it is non-existent. Even the exclusive games built from the ground up for this hardware has nothing special going on, just high model detail and that's the end of it.

When Housemarque can make Crytek look lazy that is pretty bad.

I agree. They chose to make a system that was built with multimedia/kinect in mind first over gaming, & they're now gonna be stuck with it for the next 6-7 years.

Most Xbox One versions of multiplat games will suffer a lot down the road in comparison to PS4 versions of multiplat games.

 

[c0de]

Didn't know consoles needed balancing lol.

Ask Sony, they sad the same. Lol.

 

[Nightengale]

My primary issue with the whole thing isn't the article itself ( it was fine ), but the chronology of events leading up to the whole thing.

Starting from the point of Albert throwing potshots at Sony in regards to the devkit/retail boxes matter, then dragging spec comparisons into the limelight during the Sessler interview with the DirectX meltdown, the long GAF debate where GAF went back-and-forth in regards to the his assertion of power gap, complete with Technical Fellow, 204/219, CU units, etc, the news bits from devs/PCF/EDGE on the power-gap, Ryse being only 900p, Albert ceding the talking to the engineers, leading up to today's article.

Albert may not had meant it, but he definitely created a situation where he strung along a notion that the gap almost didn't exist, and that MS has secret-sauce in stuff they did not share that could reveal the truth.

I will say that Albert did more harm than good overall in terms of the positioning of the product messaging, regardless of the truth of the matter.

 

[c0de]

Well, I guess you'll have to take that up with the third party dev who works with the xb1 everyday.

Do you have a link to that? And one dev saying this is not really what I would take as important.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Is it easier? I think this especially depends on the SDK - the architectural details could be well hidden if the SDK is good enough.

A very overlooked fact, I think, and Microsoft does this well, but for now it's easier to assume that Microsoft has a tougher architecture for devs, but that's not something they can't help rectify. Literally this is what they do. It seems almost taboo now to say that, but that's what they do.

 

[Skeff]

Do you have a link to that? And one dev saying this is not really what I would take as important.

It's in the polygon 50% better article, there is a clear message coming from developers, the esram must be Dev managed and the tools to do so are currently lacking.

 

[AgentP]

So secret sauce is dead? No dGPU, no 12BGB, no secret processors, etc.?

The XB1 is what it always was. They wanted 8GB, the only way to do that when they made the decision was to use DDR3. OF course that is not enough bandwidth so they went to the eSRAM/eDRAM solution, a band-aid for lack of bandwidth.

The reason they have 12CUs ant opted for 14CUs is they will probably starve those extra CUs, the system is designed around a aggregate bandwidth, if they had 30CUs they would still perform as well as those 12 (most of the time).

 

[prwxv3]

My primary issue with the whole thing isn't the article itself ( it was fine ), but the chronology of events leading up to the whole thing.

Starting from the point of Albert throwing potshots at Sony in regards to the devkit/retail boxes matter, then dragging spec comparisons into the limelight during the Sessler interview with the DirectX meltdown, the long GAF debate where GAF went back-and-forth in regards to the his assertion of power gap, complete with Technical Fellow, 204/219, CU units, etc, the news bits from devs/PCF/EDGE on the power-gap, Ryse being only 900p, Albert ceding the talking to the engineers, leading up to today's article.

Albert may not had meant it, but he definitely created a situation where he strung along a notion that the gap almost didn't exist, and that MS has secret-sauce in stuff they did not share that could reveal the truth.

I will say that Albert did more harm than good overall in terms of the positioning of the product messaging, regardless of the truth of the matter.

What happened here.

 

[Nightengale]

A very overlooked fact, I think.

Because this is very single thing, for both consoles that we have zero idea about aside from random quotes from devs saying stuff like "XB1's is less mature than PS4 at that particular moment of time, etc."

Unless someone-in-the-know here or amongst the devs want to spill their spaghetti and tell us deep, hard-hitting details about the respective SDK and what's the progress been for the past few months till today, we don't really have anything to go by other than 'both companies will get it sorted out in time. They always do."

 

[Bundy]

So you have access to both and have written code for both systems?

1. First of all you don't even have to be a tech-genius to see which "architecture" is easier to develop for.
2. We had several articles in the past with developers tellin' us how the PS4 is easier to develop for.

Fore example:

It's in the polygon 50% better article, there is a clear message coming from developers, the esram must be Dev managed and the tools to do so are currently lacking.

This!
Just look at the architecture for yourself. DDR3 + ESRAM alone is a headache for a lot of programmers. What is here to not understand?

 

[c0de]

It's in the polygon 50% better article, there is a clear message coming from developers, the esram must be Dev managed and the tools to do so are currently lacking.

"currently" meaning before the date polygon released the article? Couldn't find it with a quick search.

 

[prwxv3]

The ps4 is easier due to the ram setup. That does not mean the xbone is super hard though

 

[Skeff]

"currently" meaning before the date polygon released the article? Couldn't find it with a quick search.

Currently, as in when launch games we're heading into late Alpha stages and most likely heading into Beta.

EDIT: it wasn't polygon it was EDGE 50% better, my bad, some highlights though:

One basic example we were given suggested that without optimisation for either console, a platform-agnostic development build can run at around 30FPS in 1920×1080 on PS4, but it’ll run at “20-something” FPS in 1600×900 on Xbox One.

Show's the easier architecture.

“Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer.

Even this close to launch, “the hardware isn’t locked,” said another source. Sony and Microsoft are each still working on the graphics drivers for each console, and Xbox One is lagging behind in this regard – Microsoft “has been late on their drivers and that has been hurting them,” said one source. Another described Xbox One’s graphics drivers less charitably as “horrible”.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

 

[HocusPocus]

Looks like they went for balance and did everything they could with the hardware they could use without selling the box for a loss. Hope the decision for kinect was worth it as I would have preferred more power over it. Time will tell and to date their bet on kinect looks like a mistake.

 

[Chobel]

"currently" meaning before the date polygon released the article? Couldn't find it with a quick search.

I think he meant EDGE http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

“...it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer.

Sony and Microsoft are each still working on the graphics drivers for each console, and Xbox One is lagging behind in this regard – Microsoft “has been late on their drivers and that has been hurting them,” said one source. Another described Xbox One’s graphics drivers less charitably as “horrible”

 

[Nightengale]

What happened here.

This happened.

 

[babyghost853]

Well this isn't really an interesting discussion if we factor in everything.

That's the point, you can't talk about balance if you don't include everything. You can't go, it's more balanced if you take out this or that component, balance speaks of the system as a whole.

I like to read these topics because of the tech info, but the constant spinning to make Xbox one seem to have parity with the PS4 can get a little overbearing at times, there won't be parity the PS4 is more powerful, plain and simple as that.

That does not mean there won't be good games on the box for those that are interested in it, and it doesn't mean that games will look like shit, all it means is that the PS4 version of multi platform games will be better performing. People that own only one system shouldn't even care, it doesn't take away from their game, people with multiple systems will simply choose the better version.

With that said, I don't really see the need for the constant spin, I understand people like SenjutsuSage (now ignored) have agendas, weather they admit it or not, but for others it doesn't make sense.

Not an attack on Senjutsu, only used your name because it's the first that poped into my head, and thinking about it you may not even realize that you have an agenda, but it's clear to see in your post to anyone looking in. I'll give you a clue as to why. You have a friend making a first party MS game, do you not want that friends game to be successful? I think if you realize that, even you will see how biased/defensive your post come off, and it makes reading them a bit (shillish) for lack of a better term.

I'm getting way off topic here, so back to reading the rest of the thread.

 

[c0de]

I think he meant EDGE http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

Thanks!
"“Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer." So one dev complaining, as I said.

 

[prwxv3]

This happened.

I can't believe he brought up the cell, ect when things are so much different this time around with the ps4.

 

[Skeff]

Thanks!
"“Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer." So one dev complaining, as I said.

Read further, another develper stated it as "horrible"

But to clarify both of these developers who are using xb1 dev kits must pale in comparison to your opinion that Microsoft have a good dev environment because why?

You literally have no reasoning for your point of view other than "nuh-huh"

 

[ethomaz]

So PS4 is unbalanced.... the balance is 900p and PS4 is running games at 1080p.

lol

 

[Bossofman]

I think each company had different plans, Sony went with more silicon in the GPU and hoped to be able to deliver ram size parity, MS went with a guaranteed amount of ram. I honestly believe if Sony didn't get a bit lucky with the ram chip situation, they would be behind in 'balanced' power, they would still have the better GPU and faster ram, but with half as much, the XBO would look a lot better.

 

[miDnIghtEr20C]

There are other words beside balance is his comment like "the message changes again".

The message changes again? What are you talking about? I think some of you look waaaaaay too deep into these things.

The games are going to tell the story. Not sure what all this message changing is about. Since before the X1 was released I knew it was going to play next generation games and next gen games I'm excited to play. It's still going to do that. And it's still going to do them good and way better than the 360.

How is any message keep changing. Some of the Xbox haters are really holding on tight. Real tight!

 

[Finalizer]

I think he meant EDGE http://www.edge-online.com/news/pow...erences-between-ps4-and-xbox-one-performance/

You've also got this little nugget which was backed up by Kagari later in the same thread.

Seems more than a few devs are enjoying the Xbone's ESRAM currently. Remains to be seen if MS will rectify the issue.

 

[Impeccable]

How is any message keep changing. Some of the Xbox haters are really holding on tight. Real tight!

Check out my post somewhere in this thread if you honestly don't think Microsoft's message has changed.

 

[Nightengale]

I can't believe he brought up the cell, ect when things are so much different this time around with the ps4.

The Emotion Engine part was completely bullshit.

A product one-and-half years after your competitor, and then calling bullshit on their power-claim is nothing short of disingenuous.

Kutaragi did spout a lot of crap though.

 

[c0de]

Read further, another develper stated it as "horrible"

But to clarify both of these developers who are using xb1 dev kits must pale in comparison to your opinion that Microsoft have a good dev environment because why?

You literally have no reasoning for your point of view other than "nuh-huh"

No he complained about the driver, where both companies have still issues. And my reasoning is Xbox and Xbox 360.

 

[c0de]

So PS4 is unbalanced.... the balance is 900p and PS4 is running games at 1080p.

lol

Well, both have games in 1080p and games below 1080p. This is somehow balanced.

 

[Skeff]

No he complained about the driver, where both companies have still issues. And my reasoning is Xbox and Xbox 360.

and your Point of View on:

You've also got this little nugget which was backed up by Kagari later in the same thread.

Seems more than a few devs are enjoying the Xbone's ESRAM currently. Remains to be seen if MS will rectify the issue.

Also specifically mentioning the ESRAM?

 

[BigDug13]

Looks like they went for balance and did everything they could with the hardware they could use without selling the box for a loss. Hope the decision for kinect was worth it as I would have preferred more power over it. Time will tell and to date their bet on kinect looks like a mistake.

They didn't go with DDR3 because of Kinect specifically. They went with DDR3 because when designed, they absolutely needed to set aside 3GB RAM to their multiple OS's. GDDR5 was a gamble and Sony was going to live with a less robust OS while providing developers around 3GB of available GDDR5. Developers (Randy Pitchford) said you need to do better than that. 4GB isn't enough and lucky for Sony GDDR5 pricing came down.

I don't necessarily think XBO's internals are that much cheaper since they still had to add an expensive component to compensate for DDR3. They just couldn't afford to gamble since 8GB was needed on day 1.

 

[ypo]

It's so balanced that a lot of multiplatform games still haven't been shown running on the Xbone. That thing is only 2 months out from launch.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

So PS4 is unbalanced.... the balance is 900p and PS4 is running games at 1080p.

lol

Are you suggesting all PS4 games will be in native 1080p?

 

[Finalizer]

The message changes again? What are you talking about? I think some of you look waaaaaay too deep into these things.

There's no other way to interpret jumping from "The Power Of The Cloud" which gives you 300 Xbones of power, to "we didn't intentionally target the highest spec anyway, who cares lol" to "there wont even be a [notable] difference anyway! You guys underestimate our engineers; they made DirectX after all!" to now, where apparently balance is being peddled as the new keyword.

 

[Chobel]

The message changes again? What are you talking about? I think some of you look waaaaaay too deep into these things.

The games are going to tell the story. Not sure what all this message changing is about. Since before the X1 was released I knew it was going to play next generation games and next gen games I'm excited to play. It's still going to do that. And it's still going to do them good and way better than the 360.

How is any message keep changing. Some of the Xbox haters are really holding on tight. Real tight!

Fucking context, how does it work?

Now the message changes again to be about balance. Just. stop. talking.

LOL. That's what I don't get though. What's wrong with saying that you've balanced your hardware's design just right? It only seems like this is a problem because they're not beating or matching Sony on raw performance numbers, which kinda seems silly, don't you think? Cerny also thinks balance is important, he isn't mocked for saying it.

I mean, it isn't that unreasonable that they really do believe they've got a nice balanced design, is it? Hell, even I thought the design was a nice balance, and I was saying precisely this on here before E3! What else do these guys have if not balance? They sure as heck didn't go for raw performance muscle. Balance, if anything, seems like the right word for what they tried to go for with the system. Some disagree on that balance, others think it isn't as bad as people say it is.

There are other words beside balance is his comment like "the message changes again".

.
And before you attack Y2kev read this

It's kind of funny observing Microsoft's constant re-juggling of their PR message hoping something sticks. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again...

"Cloud is going to give you more computational power!" - No, it's not.
"We never targeted the best specifications on our machine." - Fair enough, but...
"We up-clocked the CPU, this makes us better!" - Well, it is a good start but...
"Everything is going to be even, 50% is not going to happen!" - Yeah, 50% is probably not what we'll see but...
"... this shit is balanced. It's been designed to work together. Basically, it's secret sauce." - Okay but... the whole initial push of the PS4 was how there is no bottlenecks and how it's perfectly balanced.


And yet every single step of the way they pick up some stragglers who have been waiting to be wrapped in the warm bosom of Microsoft once again.

 

[prwxv3]

You've also got this little nugget which was backed up by Kagari later in the same thread.

Seems more than a few devs are enjoying the Xbone's ESRAM currently. Remains to be seen if MS will rectify the issue.

The fact that only ps4 versions of third party Games have been shown puts makes me think is somewhat true. I don't think its as bad as the post says though. If it is MS royally fucked up.

 

[Bossofman]

Serious question, ALL other specs being what they are, and no MS DRM Drama, who would pick a 4gb PS4 against an 8gb XBO?