Support NeoGAF

[hinch7]

I don’t get it. I feel like up until Covid cross-gen was relatively rare. Now it seems like everyone’s expecting crossgen games for years into the new consoles life cycle. What happened?

I mean it doesn't look like it won't run on the X1 hardware on the Switch. Which is a big givaway.

The question is why would they leave millions, no billions on the table on a big launch where it will print money for Nintendo? MK8 Deluxe sold 64.27M on Switch alone https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/software/index.html

 

[SlimySnake]

I don’t get it. I feel like up until Covid cross-gen was relatively rare. Now it seems like everyone’s expecting crossgen games for years into the new consoles life cycle. What happened?

started last gen actually.

Watch Dogs, Far Cry 4, Thief, Wolfenstein New Order, MGSV, CoD Ghosts, COD Advanced Warfare, BF4 were all cross gen.

This time though the first party publishers followed suit because they knew their fanboys could be counted on to be good little boys who will defend the indefensible. The decisions to make HFW, GoW, GT7, Halo Infinite, Forza Horizon 5 were all made in around 2017-2018. Way before Covid was a thing.

It just came back to bite them in the ass because games that used to take 3 years now take 4 years and covid added another year to that. leading to a longer cross gen period than last gen which lasted around 1-1.5 years.

Nintendo has gone through this several times before. Zelda BOTW was a Wii U title that was pushed back to launch alongside the Switch, but it was as cross gen as it gets. Metroid was greenlit in 2021 over at Rare and they knew Switch 2 would be out by 2025, but they made it a switch 1 game anyway. Again, they know people will buy their new hardware regardless so why push boundaries and make things harder for themselves?

At the end of the day, the console manufacturers have to encourage third party developers to go next gen only so they can sell more consoles. Be it with exclusive funding or just plain old pressure. But this time around, both Sony and MS are basically fat publishers themselves with dozens of studios, and couldnt afford to keep their $100 million games on next gen only consoles waiting for a slow burn in sales. Even if they tried to convince other developers to go next gen only, the developers likely just pointed to their Sony and MS's own lineup of cross gen trash and told them to go fuck themselves.

Now they are paying for it. Sales for Xbox are down 50% year over year in Europe. PS5 are down 20%. And we are just in the fourth year when they should be peaking.

 

[March Climber]

Zelda BOTW was a Wii U title that was pushed back to launch alongside the Switch, but it was as cross gen as it gets.

I didn't see an actual jump with TOTK afterwards. Some slight improvements, but would you call it an actual leap, graphically?

 

[Balducci30]

I mean it doesn't look like it won't run on the X1 hardware on the Switch. Which is a big givaway.

The question is why would they leave millions, no billions on the table on a big launch where it will print money for Nintendo? MK8 Deluxe sold 64.27M on Switch alone https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/software/index.html

So they can sell their new console, like it’s always been.

started last gen actually.

Watch Dogs, Far Cry 4, Thief, Wolfenstein New Order, MGSV, CoD Ghosts, COD Advanced Warfare, BF4 were all cross gen.

This time though the first party publishers followed suit because they knew their fanboys could be counted on to be good little boys who will defend the indefensible. The decisions to make HFW, GoW, GT7, Halo Infinite, Forza Horizon 5 were all made in around 2017-2018. Way before Covid was a thing.

It just came back to bite them in the ass because games that used to take 3 years now take 4 years and covid added another year to that. leading to a longer cross gen period than last gen which lasted around 1-1.5 years.

Nintendo has gone through this several times before. Zelda BOTW was a Wii U title that was pushed back to launch alongside the Switch, but it was as cross gen as it gets. Metroid was greenlit in 2021 over at Rare and they knew Switch 2 would be out by 2025, but they made it a switch 1 game anyway. Again, they know people will buy their new hardware regardless so why push boundaries and make things harder for themselves?

At the end of the day, the console manufacturers have to encourage third party developers to go next gen only so they can sell more consoles. Be it with exclusive funding or just plain old pressure. But this time around, both Sony and MS are basically fat publishers themselves with dozens of studios, and couldnt afford to keep their $100 million games on next gen only consoles waiting for a slow burn in sales. Even if they tried to convince other developers to go next gen only, the developers likely just pointed to their Sony and MS's own lineup of cross gen trash and told them to go fuck themselves.

Now they are paying for it. Sales for Xbox are down 50% year over year in Europe. PS5 are down 20%. And we are just in the fourth year when they should be peaking.

Right I know Nintendo has done it in the past with Zelda and some other games - but it’s never been nearly every game for years like it’s been with xsx and ps5. The whole “leaving money on the table” is dumb - why make another console then? If you wanna sell the new one you have to have games that are exclusive to that hardware - they did this with switch to a degree and it worked out so I don’t get the thought process that they shouldn’t focus on building games for the new console if they want people to buy it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Bend and Bluepoint were both making live service games for the last four years, both of which were just canceled lmao

Sony is now working with both studios to determine what they will do next. Bend ihasnt made a game since 2019. Blue point since 2020. They will be a now show until 2030-2032.

It’sa shame how poorly these amazing studios were managed. Bp made the best looking game at launch and bend made arguably the best looking ue4 game last Gen. Their reward? One director Fired 3 days after launch. Other 6 months later.

Sonys mismanagement of these graphics powerhouses is a big part of the reason why this Gen has been so underwhelming. Literally the cream of the crop was forced to slave away on gaas and last Gen games.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Bend and Bluepoint were both making live service games for the last four years, both of which were just canceled lmao

Sony is now working with both studios to determine what they will do next. Bend ihasnt made a game since 2019. Blue point since 2020. They will be a now show until 2030-2032.

It’sa shame how poorly these amazing studios were managed. Bp made the best looking game at launch and bend made arguably the best looking ue4 game last Gen. Their reward? One director Fired 3 days after launch. Other 6 months later.

Sonys mismanagement of these graphics powerhouses is a big part of the reason why this Gen has been so underwhelming. Literally the cream of the crop was forced to slave away on gaas and last Gen games.

Exactly.

 

[analog_future]

Bend and Bluepoint were both making live service games for the last four years, both of which were just canceled lmao

Sony is now working with both studios to determine what they will do next. Bend ihasnt made a game since 2019. Blue point since 2020. They will be a now show until 2030-2032.

It’sa shame how poorly these amazing studios were managed. Bp made the best looking game at launch and bend made arguably the best looking ue4 game last Gen. Their reward? One director Fired 3 days after launch. Other 6 months later.

Sonys mismanagement of these graphics powerhouses is a big part of the reason why this Gen has been so underwhelming. Literally the cream of the crop was forced to slave away on gaas and last Gen games.

I think we've reached the point where it's going to be pretty safe to assume that the PS5 is going to be the worst console generation in Playstation history.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

DOOM: The Dark Ages uses ray tracing to enhance gameplay, not just visuals

DOOM: The Dark Ages is on track to become one the best-looking games of 2025 thanks to DLSS 4 and Path Tracing. It's also using RT to enhance gameplay.

www.tweaktown.com

 

[SlimySnake]

DOOM: The Dark Ages uses ray tracing to enhance gameplay, not just visuals

DOOM: The Dark Ages is on track to become one the best-looking games of 2025 thanks to DLSS 4 and Path Tracing. It's also using RT to enhance gameplay.

www.tweaktown.com

"We also took the idea of ray tracing, not only to use it for visuals but also gameplay," Director of Engine Technology at id Software, Billy Khan, explains. "We can leverage it for things we haven't been able to do in the past, which is giving accurate hit detection. [In DOOM: The Dark Ages], we have complex materials, shaders, and surfaces."

"So when you fire your weapon, the heat detection would be able to tell if you're hitting a pixel that is leather sitting next to a pixel that is metal," Billy continues. "Before ray tracing, we couldn't distinguish between two pixels very easily, and we would pick one or the other because the materials were too complex. Ray tracing can do this on a per-pixel basis and showcase if you're hitting metal or even something that's fur. It makes the game more immersive, and you get that direct feedback as the player."

lol come on. this is just PR. you will never notice per pixel hit detection.

 

[SlimySnake]

I think we've reached the point where it's going to be pretty safe to assume that the PS5 is going to be the worst console generation in Playstation history.

i was kinda bullish on them ending the gen strong thinking both Bend and Bluepoint would have their games ready by the end of the gen.

But now?

2025 - Death stranding 2 and ghost of tsushima 2
2026 - Wolverine
2027 - Intergellactic
2028 - Horizon 3

i have zero faith in other studios to turn up now. who knows what they had Housemarque and SSM doing. Cory has been working on his game since 2018. if you cant show anything in 6 years then its likely getting canceled too.

DS2 is basically a third party game now that sony doesnt even own the IP. so thats 4 games in 4 years. they used to release 4 games in one year back in the ps3 and several ps4 years.

IN terms of graphics though, intergallactic was a disappointment. wolverine looks last gen in the leaks. ghosts looks underwhelming like spiderman 2 so it will just be GG who we can all look forward to blowing us away again.

 

[Gonzito]

Bend and Bluepoint were both making live service games for the last four years, both of which were just canceled lmao

Sony is now working with both studios to determine what they will do next. Bend ihasnt made a game since 2019. Blue point since 2020. They will be a now show until 2030-2032.

It’sa shame how poorly these amazing studios were managed. Bp made the best looking game at launch and bend made arguably the best looking ue4 game last Gen. Their reward? One director Fired 3 days after launch. Other 6 months later.

Sonys mismanagement of these graphics powerhouses is a big part of the reason why this Gen has been so underwhelming. Literally the cream of the crop was forced to slave away on gaas and last Gen games.

Man I just woke up to this news, this is just pathetic. How has Sony sunk so low, goddammit...

 

[Zuzu]

I finished the campaign of Star Wars Outlaws on the PS5 Pro and I think this game has the best lighting and shadows I've seen in an open-world console game. The lighting is realistic and looks fantastic. And it has a dynamic time of day as well. Goes to show why RTGI is a great technology evolution of lighting in gaming

 

[GymWolf]

Jesus fuck how do you waste bluepoint and bend like this.

The fact that M can't get a fucking win even when sony self sabotage itself is sad...

 

[H . R . 2]

 

[samoilaaa]

i would have given 200 million to bend for a days gone sequel and complete freedom , i bet they would have done an amazing job

 

[GymWolf]

i would have given 200 million to bend for a days gone sequel and complete freedom , i bet they would have done an amazing job

You get 2 years wasted on the cheap tlou remake and 2 years wasted on a cancelled gaas, and you are gonna like it.

 

[Luipadre]

Yeah, this game might be crossgen after all. No signs of temporal antialiasing or DLSS... Makes me wonder why would they use this to show off the system then? Nonsensical reveal from the N.

yeah first thing i noticed was the jaggies.. i thought we finally gonna have a clean image on nintendo console thanks to DLSS, but looks like the jaggies are here to stay...

 

[SlimySnake]

I finished the campaign of Star Wars Outlaws on the PS5 Pro and I think this game has the best lighting and shadows I've seen in an open-world console game. The lighting is realistic and looks fantastic. And it has a dynamic time of day as well. Goes to show why RTGI is a great technology evolution of lighting in gaming

It looks gorgeous. Great use of AO and shadows to ground every single area. I just wish some of the materials were more consistent, and night time lighting was more striking like in Avatar.

Was watching some new footage of AC Shadows and man the lighting looks a gen behind.

 

[SlimySnake]

i would have given 200 million to bend for a days gone sequel and complete freedom , i bet they would have done an amazing job

btw, i watched a video about how hollywood accounting takes even the most successful box office movies like Return of the Jedi and makes it look like they lost money on them. It's to avoid paying talent who have backend deals and also taxes on profits. So they take expenses from other movies or other areas of their business and add it to the budget for a completely different movie.

There is no fucking way TLOU2 cost $200 million just 7 years after it cost them $20 million to make TLOU1 and 11 years after it cost them $20 million to make Uncharted 2. The game took less than 3 years to make after they shipped Lost Legacy. In a 200-300 person studio. There is no way that comes to $200 million.

Same goes for HFW and GOW. $200 million for literally a straight sequel? GTFO. Sony is now using the same fancy math for video games as they get more expensive. But while they may be approaching $100 million, $200 million or the insane $650 million figure for COD is completely nonsense.

Bend is a tiny studio with like 100 devs. Located in fucking oregon. They wouldve made the game for $50 million in 3 years.

P.S Jason Schrier recently wrote an article about graphics not being the main reason why games cost so much, he said its mostly mismanagement from the top. There is a new trend going around the corporate world, especially in the tech companies where we are firing mid level executives, managers and directors who do nothing but tell others what to do because corporations are realizing that those million dollar VPs and $500k directors are the ones ballooning the costs. Not the average worker who works for sub $100k and actually provides tangible value to the company. Gaming industry needs to adopt this if they havent already.

 

[Jack Howitzer]

Hamaguchi also talked about the asset streaming system used in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth. When it came to the vast open fields seen in the game, it became difficult for the development team to control how many assets needed to be loaded at what time in order to create a scene. Therefore, the programming team build a system so that designers could create maps without having to be conscious of asset loading. Specifically, it automatically adjusts the range to be loaded based on the character’s position. The Final Fantasy VII Remake Trilogy director said that it was very important to introduce this system at an early stage of development. Hamaguchi stated that the development team didn’t use the level streaming and world composition that come standard with Unreal Engine 4.. According to him, the in-house asset streaming system was basically built in the first year of Rebirth’s development.

Lmao automatically adjusts the range to be loaded based on the character’s position,?I can't believe they are actually treating implementing basic lod syteaming system ppl been using since more than 20 years ago as a noteworthy holy grail in 2025

IN terms of graphics though, intergallactic was a disappointment. wolverine looks last gen in the leaks. ghosts looks underwhelming like spiderman 2 so it will just be GG who we can all look forward to blowing us away again.

And well if they fail to blow all of us away on the tv screens by that time ,they can still choose blowing ps5 away as the primary target to create the real peak video game graphics presentations in history.RTX(Realistic TNT VFX),we're on!

 

[Lethal01]

P.S Jason Schrier recently wrote an article about graphics not being the main reason why games cost so much, he said its mostly mismanagement from the top. There is a new trend going around the corporate world, especially in the tech companies where we are firing mid level executives, managers and directors who do nothing but tell others what to do because corporations are realizing that those million dollar VPs and $500k directors are the ones ballooning the costs. Not the average worker who works for sub $100k and actually provides tangible value to the company. Gaming industry needs to adopt this if they havent already.

Nah bro, lazy devs and dei

 

[Bogdan682]

In fact, having played any other open—world games (including Avatar, Horizon), I still think that RDRII is the most complete and beautiful among them.
If this game had Nanite and higher texture detail, it would still beat literally everything on the market right now.
One of the best examples of "holistic graphics" and lighting in rasterization.

Spoiler: SCREENSHOTS

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I didn't see an actual jump with TOTK afterwards. Some slight improvements, but would you call it an actual leap, graphically?

Definitely does not. Nothing makes sense anymore in console gaming. Same things been happening on consoles with many current gen only games looking cross gen. Bunch of bullshit. Expect the worst, then expect a product below even those expectations.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Bend and Bluepoint were both making live service games for the last four years, both of which were just canceled lmao

Sony is now working with both studios to determine what they will do next. Bend ihasnt made a game since 2019. Blue point since 2020. They will be a now show until 2030-2032.

It’sa shame how poorly these amazing studios were managed. Bp made the best looking game at launch and bend made arguably the best looking ue4 game last Gen. Their reward? One director Fired 3 days after launch. Other 6 months later.

Sonys mismanagement of these graphics powerhouses is a big part of the reason why this Gen has been so underwhelming. Literally the cream of the crop was forced to slave away on gaas and last Gen games.

This is crushing news ...fucking Sony. We're not even going to see the "amazing latest generation Sony exclusives that truly take advantage of the PS5" are we ...Bluepoint could've been working on a freakin Dark Souls or Bloodborne remake in this time ...

Is the media even hammering Sony management for these epic failures? How is Herman Hulst still where he is at Sony? That guy should be ashamed of himself coming from a great studio like Guerilla games ...he knows better but he's just another Jim Ryan suit.

Even though I bought a PS5 Pro I almost want Sony to implode at this point. They deserve it.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I was in total denial of yesterday's news about Bend and Bluepoint. My little brain couldn't fathom that Sony would've wasted more talent on GaaS, until I started reading the posts in this thread. It has actually sunk in now ...damn it all

 

[Gonzito]

I was in total denial of yesterday's news about Bend and Bluepoint. My little brain couldn't fathom that Sony would've wasted more talent on GaaS, until I started reading the posts in this thread. It has actually sunk in now ...damn it all

Think about it. We could've had already Days Gone 2 and Maybe a remarkable remake of some legendary game and instead we have nothing abd we will to wait years until they release something. Fuck Jim Ryan man, he has been a cancer to this company

 

[H . R . 2]

I really miss Layden
Jim and Phil ran the entire industry into the ground, chasing everything but games

on a side note:


I like how UE5 has enabled some AA devs - who are familiar with the basic principles of cinematography- to capture that cinematic look that only some AAA games like AC: Unity or The Order 1886 used to get right. There are of course MANY technical weaknesses here but it is quite interesting how UE5 helps these devs realise their visions

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

lol come on. this is just PR. you will never notice per pixel hit detection.

Lol

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

I didn't see an actual jump with TOTK afterwards. Some slight improvements, but would you call it an actual leap, graphically?

What do you mean "is it though?" it was literally developed for and released on Wii U and then ported to Switch for launch thus it was cross gen. Whether there was a graphical leap or not for TotK is irrelevant. It was obvious to anyone that Nintendo focused on the building (and physics systems) that went into enabling that for TotK instead of visual improvements.

Also the Wii U GPU was 176gflops. The Switch in handheld mode (which is the development target) was 236gflops... What graphical leap were you expecting exactly by that meagre difference lol.

Switch 2 GPU in handheld mode is 1.7tflops. That's 7x the Switch GPU (closer to 8-10x in terms of architectural improvements) in handheld mode with DLSS / RT on top. If the next Zelda is just TotK then you have a right to complain rofl.

 

[JimRyanGOAT]

The formula for success for Sony is so clear imo

Sonys biggest mistake was forcing their powerhouse first party developers into live service


If they wanted live service they should have either bought studios with live service experience, more Bungie like studios


Or help newer smaller studios with funding


Some of the longest running live service games came organically


Fortnite
Minecraft
Roblox
Escape from Tarkov


Thinking Naughtys Dog Experience with Narrative driven stories would somehow transition into live service was just silly


Despite the colossal failures so far, theres still some more organic studios working on live service that can be big hits.

Oh and more smaller games, like Astro Bot. I'd love some Nintendo like IP's like Racing or Fighting with Sony IP's

 

[SlimySnake]

The formula for success for Sony is so clear imo

Sonys biggest mistake was forcing their powerhouse first party developers into live service


If they wanted live service they should have either bought studios with live service experience, more Bungie like studios


Or help newer smaller studios with funding


Some of the longest running live service games came organically


Fortnite
Minecraft
Roblox
Escape from Tarkov


Thinking Naughtys Dog Experience with Narrative driven stories would somehow transition into live service was just silly


Despite the colossal failures so far, theres still some more organic studios working on live service that can be big hits.

Oh and more smaller games, like Astro Bot. I'd love some Nintendo like IP's like Racing or Fighting with Sony IP's

of course, sony studios will be alright. they did win goty last year after all, and should have two major games releasing this year.

The problem is in the context of this thread, they are not going to deliver the industry leading, standard setting graphics powerhouse like they used to the previous few generations. Especially starting with the PS3 when a terrible launch and a god awful CG filled conference pushed the studios to match those visuals.