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[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I have a question. Halo 3 implied that Humanity was Forerunner, or in some way their chosen children. It was never stated there was an ancient space faring Humanity that got knocked back to Earth.

So, that bring said, was any of that stuff part of the Halo Bible/lore at Bungie or was that all just made up at 343?

IIRC behind the scenes the connection between Forerunners and Humanity was never completely decided upon in the Bungie days. It bounced around a bit internally. As far as Halo 3 goes, while there are hints that Humanity and Forerunners are the same (i.e. Spark's comments), there are also hints that indicate they are different (The Librarian's comments in one of the Terminals), so even then it was debatable which way Bungie was leaning. Still, either way Humanity being the "Forerunner's chosen children" is effectively true either way.

Humanity once being a space-faring race near equal to the Forerunners is definitely material incepted by 343i though. Edit: Well, sort of. Let me reword that. Humanity formerly being a space faring race AND being a different species from the Forerunners was something that wasn't thought of until 343i. As I said above, at different points it was either one or the other, just not both.

 

[raindoc]

I love how the theme of Halo seems to be that

Spoiler

eventually your creations will fuck you over

.

Reapers incoming.

 

[shiba5]

Reapers incoming.

This is the way the world ends:
red, green, or blue?

 

[Human_me]

This is the way the world ends:
red, green, or blue?

Brown

Spoiler

Flood

 

[Fuchsdh]

This is the way the world ends:
red, green, or blue?

Except ultimately Halo's story would never give you the illusion that you have control over the plot, so it could never be as dissatisfying to fans

 

[Random17]

I love how the theme of Halo seems to be that

Spoiler

eventually your creations will fuck you over

.

I've always thought it was "fight against a common enemy".

Every Halo game has an important plot relevant incident involving changing alliances, except Reach, where the militia were minor.

 

[victreeb3l]

I just watched the Halo 2:A Terminals and man the San'Shyuum were a bunch of dicks werent they. I felt so bad for the Unggoy

I've always thought it was "fight against a common enemy".

Every Halo game has an important plot relevant incident involving changing alliances, except Reach, where the militia were minor.

Theres definitely that but in any kind of military / war storyline theres always that element of making uncomfortable alliances to accomplish a goal.

Maybe the real theme is to stay the hell away from AI haha.

 

[Flipyap]

I've always thought it was "fight against a common enemy".

Every Halo game has an important plot relevant incident involving changing alliances, except Reach, where the militia were minor.

That only really applies to Halo 3 and the very end of 2. Everything else goes more along the lines of "it's going to take a cyborg Jesus to save us because we're too dumb to stop fighting each other even when facing extinction."

 

[LordOfChaos]

I just watched the Halo 2:A Terminals and man the San'Shyuum were a bunch of dicks werent they. I felt so bad for the Unggoy

Yeah, they were pretty much a slave race under the covenant. I think humanity could have exploited that if they wanted, if they offered them a better life we could have our own grunts!

Imagine a species that breeds like rabbits, strapped into MJOLNIR, and who are already strong enough to tear a mans arm off without it....

 

[superNESjoe]

IIRC behind the scenes the connection between Forerunners and Humanity was never completely decided upon in the Bungie days. It bounced around a bit internally. As far as Halo 3 goes, while there are hints that Humanity and Forerunners are the same (i.e. Spark's comments), there are also hints that indicate they are different (The Librarian's comments in one of the Terminals), so even then it was debatable which way Bungie was leaning. Still, either way Humanity being the "Forerunner's chosen children" is effectively true either way.

Humanity once being a space-faring race near equal to the Forerunners is definitely material incepted by 343i though.

See, the humanity once being space faring and at war with the Forerunners was the first point in the Halo universe that I just kind of double took and was in complete denial. I thought it was just really stupid when combined with the rest of the story.

Maybe I'm becoming an old fart, but I don't seem to be liking anything 343 is doing with Halo.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

See, the humanity once being space faring and at war with the Forerunners was the first point in the Halo universe that I just kind of double took and was in complete denial. I thought it was just really stupid when combined with the rest of the story.

Maybe I'm becoming an old fart, but I don't seem to be liking anything 343 is doing with Halo.

I agreed at first, but I loved the Foreunner Saga so much and how they implemented it all that I ended up being cool with the idea. Plus it brought in some fun stuff like humanity being allied with the

Spoiler

San 'Shyuum

.

I think the whole thing works because the Halo array and the reseeding that followed was basically a galactic reset button, so it's not that absurd to think that before that reset civilizations might have looked very different, even more advanced. It does require a bit of hand-waving for some issues, but overall it works well enough.

 

[jet1911]

Posted in the Halo 5 OT but I guess it could go here too.

Is it widely know in the Halo universe that the human race was super advance many centuries ago? Because you'd think that when not Guilty Spark (forgot it's name) mentioned that the human were as deadly as when "we first walked the stars" it would have made the characters react a little no?

 

[victreeb3l]

Yeah, they were pretty much a slave race under the covenant. I think humanity could have exploited that if they wanted, if they offered them a better life we could have our own grunts!

Imagine a species that breeds like rabbits, strapped into MJOLNIR, and who are already strong enough to tear a mans arm off without it....

When that one grunt started crying watching his homeworld getting glassed...man the feels.

I'd love to see them cooperate with the humans. The Unggoy are hilarious and it'd be great if there was a mission with MC leading a squad of them. The banter alone should be top tier.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Posted in the Halo 5 OT but I guess it could go here too.

Is it widely know in the Halo universe that the human race was super advance many centuries ago? Because you'd think that when not Guilty Spark (forgot it's name) mentioned that the human were as deadly as when "we first walked the stars" it would have made the characters react a little no?

I don't know if I would say widely known. I mean, it's been a few years since the Forerunner Saga and the Halo 4 terminals do specifically address ancient humanity, so I think a lot of that information has proliferated through a good chunk of fans by now. But there's always going to be a lot of more casual players who have no idea about that kind of stuff.

 

[jet1911]

I don't know if I would say widely known. I mean, it's been a few years since the Forerunner Saga and the Halo 4 terminals do specifically address ancient humanity, so I think a lot of that information has proliferated through a good chunk of fans by now. But there's always going to be a lot of more casual players who have no idea about that kind of stuff.

I meant the characters in the game. Exhuberant just drop that bomb on Team Locke and they don't even say a thing about it.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I had a thought that if true, makes me enjoy the story of Halo 5 much more.

Am I completely off when I say this is a possibility?

Spoiler

In Halo 4 Cortana was going rampant and constantly having outbursts, screwing up cheifs HUD, telling Infinity she wouldn't allow them to leave requiem, and saying cruel things about Halsey. She eventually splits her rampant parts up into copies on the didacts ship, she uses these rampant copies to hold the didact in place so chief can activate the Havoc nuke.

When it goes off, she encapsulates chief in hardlight and tells him she's gone and it's too late, the rest of her was down with the ship. She tells chief welcome home and now as we know the rampant copies of herself slipspace to Genesis where she fuses with the domain. Is the evil cortana of Halo 5 the rampant portions of Cortana from 4?

Did we lose the Cortana we knew and loved in Halo 4, and are now fighting against the rampant copies left behind? I'd like this much better. As cortana going flat out bad sporadically doesn't make much sense

.

Spoiler

Yes, but no. There is no rampant part of Cortana. She was all rampant. Even the part of her that said goodbye at the end of Halo 4 is rampant

Unfortunately, the worst part of 5 is the failure to make clear any motivations. Even a little. It would've gone a long way to help swallow the cliched silliness.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Posted in the Halo 5 OT but I guess it could go here too.

Is it widely know in the Halo universe that the human race was super advance many centuries ago? Because you'd think that when not Guilty Spark (forgot it's name) mentioned that the human were as deadly as when "we first walked the stars" it would have made the characters react a little no?

I don't know if I would say widely known. I mean, it's been a few years since the Forerunner Saga and the Halo 4 terminals do specifically address ancient humanity, so I think a lot of that information has proliferated through a good chunk of fans by now. But there's always going to be a lot of more casual players who have no idea about that kind of stuff.

I think he meant in-universe.

In the forerunner trilogy 343 GS gives an account of post-devolution times, that also touch on the fact that humans were near as advanced as Forerunners once. 343GS runs away with the ship and it's crew though, so only whoever they were transferring to would have heard the account. In Spartan Ops Lasky also mentions that the heads of ONI/UNSC are aware that prometheans were made of ancient humans, so I guess a few head honchos in both organizations know about the advanced status of ancient humanity.

But if you asked a civvie or regular soldier, probably not. Just the spartan squads it was said to would know I'd imagine.

 

[golem]

Unfortunately, the worst part of 5 is the failure to make clear any motivations. Even a little. It would've gone a long way to help swallow the cliched silliness.

I like that it is left open to speculation, all the way from being a result of having been created based on Halsey's brain patterns to being corrupted by Gravemind. I assume it will become clear in H6.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I meant the characters in the game. Exhuberant just drop that bomb on Team Locke and they don't even say a thing about it.

Oh shit, yeah, I totally see that now. Was hurriedly posting between trick-or-treaters haha. Yeah, as has been said some people have some ideas of what happened with ancient humanity, but it's a pretty select pool. Spark blocked off all communications from the UNSC Rubicon (the ship that picked up his remains) so none of the stuff he told the crew would have reached the UNSC/ONI. As far as I'm aware the only knowledge we know the UNSC/ONI have regarding ancient humanity was that Prometheans were formerly ancient humans, but I'm also pretty certain that knowledge came directly from the Chief (who didn't know much more than that) following Requiem. So yeah, I don't think humanity does, or at least should, know much more than that.

Either way I don't imagine Locke and the rest of Osiris knowing much of anything on the matter (realistically it isn't pertinent information for a Spartan or pretty much any armed forces). Chalk up their lack of reactions to one of many storytelling issues in Halo 5.

 

[Random17]

That only really applies to Halo 3 and the very end of 2. Everything else goes more along the lines of "it's going to take a cyborg Jesus to save us because we're too dumb to stop fighting each other even when facing extinction."

That was the most important plot point in Halo 2, though.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Oh, here's that time stamp for the AI thing

https://youtu.be/Vr08_8mJZsE?t=2h12m30s

Hmm. Still unsure if that was

Spoiler

BB.

I feel like they didn't intend it to be, otherwise they would have had him say his name for dramatic effect.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

See, the humanity once being space faring and at war with the Forerunners was the first point in the Halo universe that I just kind of double took and was in complete denial. I thought it was just really stupid when combined with the rest of the story.

Maybe I'm becoming an old fart, but I don't seem to be liking anything 343 is doing with Halo.

Well, it's always been the case that Humans were either Forerunner or a race with a special connection to them. I too was a bit taken aback with the revelations around Halo 4 but after the initial shock wore off I realised it doesn't change much in the scheme of things.

 

[raindoc]

I finished the campaign yesterday and I'm confused... mostly by what story 343 are trying to tell.
In H4 we awaken "the Chief's nemesis" and are introduced (in game, in person) to the Librarian who hints at even greater things to come for the chief.
Then in Halo 5 it's all about "Guardians" that appear out of nowhere and Cortana turning out aliva and insane, not rampant. The Didact was nothing but a side note and the Librarian/John's "destiny" not even mentioned.

Quo vadis?

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I finished the campaign yesterday and I'm confused... mostly by what story 343 are trying to tell.
In H4 we awaken "the Chief's nemesis" and are introduced (in game, in person) to the Librarian who hints at even greater things to come for the chief.
Then in Halo 5 it's all about "Guardians" that appear out of nowhere and Cortana turning out aliva and insane, not rampant. The Didact was nothing but a side note and the Librarian/John's "destiny" not even mentioned.

Quo vadis?

Basically 343i threw away everything they established with Halo 4 and related stories because uh... reasons. Chief's enhancements from the Librarian? Completely forgotten. The Librarians plans and humanity's ascension? That entire plot-line is pretty much gone besides a single throw-away line. Jul 'Mdama, a character and plotline that spanned Halo 4/Spartan Ops, two novels, and the majority of Escalation? Unceremoniously killed off in the first mission, and not even in gameplay. The return of the Forerunner? Nothing.

I really have no idea what happened or why they decided to do this, because all the stuff that they had going was already really interesting. But even worse, they could have had the basic story they have now and still handled all the older plotlines much better. If they had incorporated some sort of elements regarding humanity attempting to take up the Mantle, Cortana's usurpation of it could have been more significant and it would provide a more natural path from Halo 4's storyline to this new one. Jul could have escaped and survived until Locke et al. reached Sanghelios, and then ended his plotline with a proper send-off, like a mini-boss fight along-side the Arbiter. Maybe even tie it into Sanghelios's Guardian somehow. And as for Chief's enhancements and the possible return of Forerunners, even some sort of nods would have been helpful. As is it's like the only thing that mattered from Halo 4 is that Cortana died, which is a damn shame.

On a related note, if nothing ever comes from Guilty Spark and the Rubicon's hunt for the Librarian in-game, I'm going to be pissed.

 

[superNESjoe]

I agreed at first, but I loved the Foreunner Saga so much and how they implemented it all that I ended up being cool with the idea. Plus it brought in some fun stuff like humanity being allied with the

Spoiler

San 'Shyuum

.

I think the whole thing works because the Halo array and the reseeding that followed was basically a galactic reset button, so it's not that absurd to think that before that reset civilizations might have looked very different, even more advanced. It does require a bit of hand-waving for some issues, but overall it works well enough.

Well, it's always been the case that Humans were either Forerunner or a race with a special connection to them. I too was a bit taken aback with the revelations around Halo 4 but after the initial shock wore off I realised it doesn't change much in the scheme of things.

Maybe I'll give it a read.

 

[Bornstellar]

Oh, here's that time stamp for the AI thing

https://youtu.be/Vr08_8mJZsE?t=2h12m30s

Hmm. Still unsure if that was

Spoiler

BB.

I feel like they didn't intend it to be, otherwise they would have had him say his name for dramatic effect.

Eh, I can maybe hear it. "I am yours to command."

 

[LordOfChaos]

Eh, I can maybe hear it. "I am yours to command."

Yeah it's questionable though. I'm not sure what they intended it to be. If they wanted an easter egg for us lore fans to go "OH SHIT IT'S HIM", they could have had him say his name. Unless they thought it would mean nothing and just confuse the majority of Halo players to say the name, since more play the game than read the books or listen to HTT. Or it was just another AI with the same accent. Or, they just had the VA in house for HTT and had him give a line for a generic AI that happened to sound the same

Yeah, but if

Spoiler

BB is with Cortana

...Shieeet. Though he seems more the type to join then sabotage from the inside

He has about a year of life left right? Maybe go out with a bang...Unless rampancy is cured for everyone by then

 

[Fuchsdh]

BB hates Cortana's guts. I don't think even the potential for living forever would make him think her idea is a good one.

 

[raindoc]

On a related note, if nothing ever comes from Guilty Spark and the Rubicon's hunt for the Librarian in-game, I'm going to be pissed.

Was that ever mentioned again in the EU?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Was that ever mentioned again in the EU?

It's brought up in Hunters in the Dark, although at that point nothing is still known about its whereabouts.

All I would say is that I don't think you name your studio after a character you're going to resurrect for one EU novel and then ignore.


Really, playing through this the only plain misstep I think is that they dispatch Jul in the first mission. Considering we go to Sanghelios later to finish the Covenant anyhow, I'm not sure why they felt they had to wrap up that storyline so early.

 

[LordOfChaos]

BB hates Cortana's guts. I don't think even the potential for living forever would make him think her idea is a good one.

I felt like by Saint's Testimony it was more competitive admiration than hate.

 

[nekkid]

I love how the theme of Halo seems to be that

Spoiler

eventually your creations will fuck you over

.

 

[Vena]

I finished the campaign yesterday and I'm confused... mostly by what story 343 are trying to tell.
In H4 we awaken "the Chief's nemesis" and are introduced (in game, in person) to the Librarian who hints at even greater things to come for the chief.
Then in Halo 5 it's all about "Guardians" that appear out of nowhere and Cortana turning out aliva and insane, not rampant. The Didact was nothing but a side note and the Librarian/John's "destiny" not even mentioned.

Quo vadis?

After playing through my friend's copy, I'd say that its an attempt at subversion of what was the easy answer.

The awakened nemesis of H4 was Cortana, the Didact was a step along the way plus an introduction and explanation of the Mantle. His insanity with regards to it was just a fleshing out of what he considered his responsibility after the Flood War. (Though I'd expect him to come back as I don't think he's dead.)

The ascension of humans is the

Spoiler

ascension of the Created of humans, so "the children of man" sort of thing.

The Chief's imperviousness to the Composer and, as such, being made a "Created" artificially, I'd imagine will play a roll in the next episode as Cortana's words at the end of the game

Spoiler

make me think more of the Borg than mutual existence.

At least this is what I drew as conclusions after finishing the story.

 

[soulassssns]

Wonder if Randal will join Cortana in Halo 6. He seemed quite peeved in that one cutscene.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Wonder if Randal will join Cortana in Halo 6. He seemed quite peeved in that one cutscene.

... Roland?

The whole Roland thing was another thing that irked me actually. He had that big outburst in support of Cortana early on in the game (which honestly seemed a little out of place, even a little forced), but then when

Spoiler

Cortana attacked the Infinity just after/as all of the AIs were pledging their allegiances to her, no one made a comment about Roland not joining. Not even Roland himself. While I'm sure 343i will explain it all in time, not explaining why or even addressing that he didn't join her is a huge failure of storytelling for this game.

As is, within Halo 5 it just didn't make any sense at all, and is for all intents and purposes a pretty damn significant plot-hole that raises a lot of questions, ones that shouldn't be put off for a book, or the next game three years from now. For example, wouldn't the captain of the UNSC's flagship be a little suspicious of his ship-board AI after that outburst and with human AI all over the galaxy joining Cortana? Furthermore, we know how much Roland disliked the questioning of Cortana at the beginning of the game, so one should expect some kind of response from him after her take-over, be it in favor or against. But there's nothing, meaning we get yet another noticeably missing character moment, which only adds to the weak characterization and lack of any real motivations for almost everyone in the game. Even a quick remark from Roland showing some sort of disagreement with Cortana's plan, or even a blurb from Lasky showing some kind of distrust would have done wonders, but there's nothing.

 

[superNESjoe]

... Roland?

The whole Roland thing was another thing that irked me actually. He had that big outburst in support of Cortana early on in the game (which honestly seemed a little out of place, even a little forced), but then when

Spoiler

Cortana attacked the Infinity just after/as all of the AIs were pledging their allegiances to her, no one made a comment about Roland not joining. Not even Roland himself. While I'm sure 343i will explain it all in time, not explaining why or even addressing that he didn't join her is a huge failure of storytelling for this game.

As is, within Halo 5 it just didn't make any sense at all, and is for all intents and purposes a pretty damn significant plot-hole that raises a lot of questions, ones that shouldn't be put off for a book, or the next game three years from now. For example, wouldn't the captain of the UNSC's flagship be a little suspicious of his ship-board AI after that outburst and with human AI all over the galaxy joining Cortana? Furthermore, we know how much Roland disliked the questioning of Cortana at the beginning of the game, so one should expect some kind of response from him after her take-over, be it in favor or against. But there's nothing, meaning we get yet another noticeably missing character moment, which only adds to the weak characterization and lack of any real motivations for almost everyone in the game.

Reason #18 of 264, why I was horribly disappointed by the plot delivery in Halo 5.

 

[LordOfChaos]

....

Was the Infinity even aware of the AIs joining her? Since that was revealed only to one spartan team while they were on Genesis, nowhere near the Infinity, right?

And even if they were, the moment Cortana shows up would be bad timing to go "Hey buddy? You have no plans on joining our new AI overlords, right?"

Also, just because Rolland had that outburst doesn't mean he supports her anymore - that was before he know anything about what she was doing, he had only just heard she was alive. It was later shown she was causing a death toll and lots of destruction in awakening the guardians, so he could have flipped that decision.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

The game in general felt like it was stitched together, cut down or rewritten. The cut-scenes were abrupt, the pacing was off, story elements kind of faded in and out. I've seen others mention getting a similar feeling. I really think only a few relatively minor changes in the scheme of things could have done the campaign wonders.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Was the Infinity even aware of the AIs joining her? Since that was revealed only to one spartan team while they were on Genesis, nowhere near the Infinity, right?

And even if they were, the moment Cortana shows up would be bad timing to go "Hey buddy? You have no plans on joining our new AI overlords, right?"

Also, just because Rolland had that outburst doesn't mean he supports her anymore - that was before he know anything about what she was doing, he had only just heard she was alive. It was later shown she was causing a death toll and lots of destruction in awakening the guardians, so he could have flipped that decision.

Roland specifically tells Lasky that the "other AIs" have joined Cortana and were shutting everything down.

And yes, I realize that his outburst does not mean he supports her always and forever. But they specifically established his initial support for her, and if he's going to go against her then they something to indicate or establish that. Same for him joining her. It's something that needs to be addressed in this story, there needs to be some kind of reference to his feelings and whatnot. Not doing so, in THIS story, leads to a huge gap in the plot and Roland's characterization/motivations. It's just poor storytelling, plain and simple.

The game in general felt like it was stitched together, cut down or rewritten. The cut-scenes were abrupt, the pacing was off, story elements kind of faded in and out. I've seen others mention getting a similar feeling. I really think only a few relatively minor changes in the scheme of things could have done the campaign wonders.

Yup. In fact, the amount of stuff that happens off screen really makes me think a significant chunk of the game got cut. For instance,

Spoiler

Chief's decision to go against Cortana happens completely off-screen between Blue Team first talking with her on Genesis and when Locke catches up with them. It just goes from Fred (extremely naively) saying Cortana's plans are pretty dope to Locke telling Chief they have to stop Cortana and Chief saying that they're already trying. That should have been a pretty massive moment, Chief decided to go against the only "person" he's ever truly been close to, and we never even see it.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Roland specifically tells Lasky that the "other AIs" have joined Cortana and were shutting everything down.

And yes, I realize that his outburst does not mean he supports her always and forever. But they specifically established his initial support for her, and if he's going to go against her then they something to indicate or establish that. Same for him joining her. It's something that needs to be addressed in this story, there needs to be some kind of reference to his feelings and whatnot. Not doing so, in THIS story, leads to a huge gap in the plot and Roland's characterization/motivations. It's just poor storytelling, plain and simple.

"Hey, why are you guys accusing Cortana of being a threat just because she's still alive" is not a ringing endorsement of "oh so Cortana has been actually behind everything and now wants to make everyone stay at peace or she'll kill them." He never supports any plan of hers at all, nor shows any inclination.

You're making mountains out of molehills.

 

[Granadier]

Halo 5 story spoilers:

Spoiler

Is there any information in the extended universe about the Warden Eternal? It's alluded to that it's a singular, sentient being but that's the about all the information given during the game.

 

[Kalentan]

Halo 5 story spoilers:

Spoiler

Is there any information in the extended universe about the Warden Eternal? It's alluded to that it's a singular, sentient being but that's the about all the information given during the game.

Not yet, he's a new character. I imagine he will be expanded upon in the future.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

"Hey, why are you guys accusing Cortana of being a threat just because she's still alive" is not a ringing endorsement of "oh so Cortana has been actually behind everything and now wants to make everyone stay at peace or she'll kill them." He never supports any plan of hers at all, nor shows any inclination.

You're making mountains out of molehills.

I never said he supported her plans. Because well, the game never actually says if he does or addresses it in any way, which is the problem.

Roland is one of the most important AIs in existence (the ship-board AI for the single most important ship in the UNSC's fleet) and a fairly important character in the Halo universe in general at the moment. When the entire climax of your story is

Spoiler

"holy shit ALL OF THE AIs ARE REBELLING", it's definitely a problem when one of your important characters is an AI and literally no one mentions the fact that he's not rebelling. You can't honestly say the lack of any sort of nod towards his stance isn't at least a minor plot hole, if not a significant one. And it certainly is made worse by the fact that the only other significant moment we have with Roland is him in the middle of an (arguably forced) defense of Cortana at the beginning of the game. That moment, while not endorsing her later plans, clearly establishes some sort of investment in Cortana, even if it doesn't in any way mean he must agree with her always and forever. So not paying off on that setup at all just exacerbates the already existing issue of not referencing an important AI not rebelling.

Now, all that said, I'm not saying this is the worst issue in the world, or even with Halo 5 in general. I'm just saying that it's one of many issues of various sizes that add up to some deeply flawed storytelling in Halo 5, which I brought up only because Roland's connection to Cortana was mentioned. So no, I'm not making "mountains" here.

 

[Stinkles]

I never said he supported her plans. Because well, the game never actually says if he does or addresses it in any way, which is the problem.

Roland is one of the most important AIs in existence and a fairly important character in the Halo universe in general at the moment. When the entire climax of your story is

Spoiler

"holy shit ALL OF THE AIs ARE REBELLING", it's definitely a problem when one of your important characters is an AI and literally no one mentions the fact that he's not rebelling. You can't honestly say the lack of any sort of nod towards his stance isn't at least a minor plot hole, if not a significant one. And it certainly is made worse by the fact that the only other significant moment we have with Roland is him in the middle of an (arguably forced) defense of Cortana at the beginning of the game. That moment, while not endorsing her plans clearly establishes some sort of investment in Cortana, even if it doesn't mean he agrees with her always and forever. So not paying off on that just exacerbates that already existing issue I mentioned above.

Now, all that said, I'm not saying this is the worst issue in the world, or even with Halo 5 in general. I'm just saying that it's one of many issues of various sizes that add up to some deeply flawed storytelling in Halo 5.

He's also a person imbued with independent opinions as a valuable aspect of his persona, literally just like you.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

He's also a person imbued with independent opinions as a valuable aspect of his persona, literally just like you.

I'm aware. But then he too diminished by own opinions with his molehill quip, so there's that.

And of course, with any of my (or anyone else's) posts, no matter how strongly I word them, the phrase "it my opinion that" should be seen as implicit.

Edit: I realize now you may be talking about Roland. Oops, sorry haha. In that case, my point is, again, the problem is that we don't see that though. We don't seem him expressing his opinion that Cortana is wrong.

 

[MikeE21286]

I spent a ton of time reading this all over today....

I've played all the games and honestly hadn't a grasp/clue on 95% of the main page

http://www.halopedia.org/Halo_universe

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I spent a ton of time reading this all over today....

I've played all the games and honestly hadn't a grasp/clue on 95% of the main page

http://www.halopedia.org/Halo_universe

Hahah, yeah, a big wall of lore like that can be pretty damn daunting. I remember before I had read through all the books/comics (and I think even before I played all the games?) skimming through the Wiki and man was that a hell of a rabbit hole haha.

If you're really interested in diving in, start with the original trilogy of books - Fall of Reach, The Flood, and First Strike. That primes you on a lot of stuff. You can actually skip The Flood since it's mostly an adaptation of Halo CE, but it does add some stuff. After that the Forerunner Saga is great for establishing all the really crazy parts of the lore that's most important right now.

 

[LordOfChaos]

When the entire climax of your story is

Spoiler

"holy shit ALL OF THE AIs ARE REBELLING"

I don't think it's anywhere near all of them. The few specific mentions we heard were ones close to rampancy, then the caption says [hundreds of AI voices]. IDK how many there are at this point, but spanning dozens of worlds, I'd guess at least thousands?
(I realize you probably meant "all of them" as an exaggeration, but point being lots of AIs are probably against her as well).

Though sure, since they set up the initial Rolland bit with the outburst, it would have been nice to have something onscreen where he changed his mind upon learning the damage she did. But that's a pretty assumable bit of information. His outburst was just on learning she was alive and the fleshbags wanted to take her down. Then the damage came.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I don't think it's anywhere near all of them. The few specific mentions we heard were ones close to rampancy, then the caption says [hundreds of AI voices]. IDK how many there are at this point, but spanning dozens of worlds, I'd guess at least thousands?

Though sure, since they set up the initial Rolland bit with the outburst, it would have been nice to have something onscreen where he changed his mind upon learning the damage she did. But that's a pretty assumable bit of information. His outburst was just on learning she was alive and the fleshbags wanted to take her down. Then the damage came.

I know it's not all of the AIs, potentially not even a sizeable percentage for all we know. But everything is now centered around AIs rebelling and taking control/shutting things down/causing problems. Roland is one of the most important AIs in the galaxy, so you would think someone would say something. If Roland disagreed with her, you would think he would express some sort of betrayal or anger by his peers' choices. As captain of the UNSC's flagship, you'd think Lasky would question why Roland hadn't joined Cortana's cause (or even whether he actually hadn't). And even Cortana would presumably question why Roland hadn't joined her. Maybe even a taunt or a jab. But with none of this there, no exchange at all between any of the major parties, the scene just feels awkward. It's like everyone forgets Roland is an AI or something.

I know all of this will inevitably addressed later, and I expect the explanations to be quite interesting, just as Saint's Testimony's twist was. But I really feel the lack of any sort of building point for the inevitable explanations both greatly hurts Halo 5's ending, as it's a fairly noticeable hole, but also hurts whatever story that explains it, because it won't have had a strong foundation. And I think all of that could have been fixed with just 5-10 seconds of dialog at most, which makes it frustrating.

 

[Flipyap]

Yup. In fact, the amount of stuff that happens off screen really makes me think a significant chunk of the game got cut. For instance,

Spoiler

Chief's decision to go against Cortana happens completely off-screen between Blue Team first talking with her on Genesis and when Locke catches up with them. It just goes from Fred (extremely naively) saying Cortana's plans are pretty dope to Locke telling Chief they have to stop Cortana and Chief saying that they're already trying. That should have been a pretty massive moment, Chief decided to go against the only "person" he's ever truly been close to, and we never even see it.

Hmm. I didn't feel like anything was missing here. To me, it showed that Ol' Johnny isn't as simple and naive as he might seem sometimes, that he might have considered that possibility from the very beginning of this story and chose how he's going to behave even before the choice was presented to him.

He's also a person imbued with independent opinions as a valuable aspect of his persona, literally just like you.

I wish we could have seen more of him. He seems like he could become a really interesting character.