-COOLIO-
The Everyman
i've been following you and i have to ask: how did you move so fast?
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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor
- Thread starter chubigans
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i've been following you and i have to ask: how did you move so fast?
I personally feel only certain genres of games should try for Early Access, and even then, only when they properly prioritize what they have finished before Early Access begins. For example, a Rogue-like which has the core mechanics working and polished but still plans to add more enemies, items, special events, and so on, would probably do perfectly fine with Early Access. Crypt of the Necrodancer, for example. Its still a full, fun game experience with few notable bugs or problems, it just doesn't have all the bells and whistles and content needed to justify calling it a full release yet.
A game like what Feep is making, a single-player 4-5 hour one-and-done story-heavy game? Yeah, not a good fit for Early Access. Good call Feep. I never considered Volgarr for Early Access either, it also did not seem like it would go over well, but I may consider it for a future game, it all depends on the kind of game it is.
The wrong game can just back fire for the developer, leaving an overall negative impression for the public. Early Access should not be treated like beta testing, IMHO - try to have it as bug-free as possible and all the core mechanics to make the game FUN in-place, and with a game design where missing content won't have a huge impact on enjoyment of the game as a whole, or you're really risking shooting your future sales in the foot just to get that extra early cash infusion.
I agree. Starbound is an example of one that imo went early access far too early. It was pretty broken and early alpha feeling. I was super excited about it for a year+ and the early access felt broken enough that my interest in the game all but vanished. The negative thumbs down on steam stacked up pretty quickly. Hmmm.. been long enough now I'm curious to try it again and see how it's coming along
It's my full time job.
Also of note: dlc initially after the game's launch is free. I intend to incrementally tell the story, with new puzzle mechanics and combat.
I agree. Starbound is an example of one that imo went early access far too early. It was pretty broken and early alpha feeling. I was super excited about it for a year+ and the early access felt broken enough that my interest in the game all but vanished. The negative thumbs down on steam stacked up pretty quickly. Hmmm.. been long enough now I'm curious to try it again and see how it's coming along
Sadly I would say Starbound is exactly the RIGHT genre of game to go Early Access though, since it is the kind of game that, like Terraria, could work well with very little content and then add lots and lots of content as it pushed toward release.
It obviously messed up on the prioritization and timing of features/stability needed though, so still ended up being likely hurt in the long run for doing it.
This just shows that, in general, you are better off avoiding the program unless you are very confident you have the right genre, a low bug count, and are far enough along in the project to pull it off. If you really need the money sooner, I would seriously consider all other options first, like Kickstarter, pre-orders, or even revenue sources outside of the project itself, before going Early Access, unless you are supremely confident people will thoroughly enjoy the game in its current state.
Don't trust the consumers to understand and forgive an unfinished product, or to see it for what it will be, like you do - they don't, no matter what most of them claim! A lot of the "magic and wonder" of a game you've seen but haven't played yet is immediately lost the moment you do get to play it, and can only be made up for with a solid experience few Early Access games can hope to deliver on.
Oh hehe rad
I was checking my pledge and bummed that I didn't get in at Beta tier, and I didn't want to break down your door and rip your harddrive out just to try it myself. I'm not allowed to do that anymore... restraining order.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
Well every day I get up, psyche myself up for work, and work about 8 to 10 hours on the game.
That actually sounds pretty awesome, totally love stuff like this.
Signed up for the beta as soon as I saw the new Kickstarter post last night.
show me your skeleton
Member
oh goodness a game i had a tiny hand in helping create is going to be available soon!
what if someone says the music is a big pile of poop?!
I CAN'T HANDLE THIS PRESSURE.
what if someone says the music is a big pile of poop?!
I CAN'T HANDLE THIS PRESSURE.
i have the exact same feeling right now, we're going through this together
don't worry though, if somebody says the music is bad they're probably referring to mine
me 3, except it's only a beta, so if it's a pile of poop, the poop can still be fixed
show me your skeleton
Member
you didn't specify a big pile of poop, so that's okay. i can deal with a regular sized one.
pssh! let us weep in a corner together as praise falls upon ashodin's coding skills and we are left to the wayside, the singular negative in a wave of otherwise glowing reviews.
forced to the gaming dev. ghetto, our handscrawled signs simply telling the worls: "will music for food" as ashodin ascends to indie godhood.
i prefer the alternate ending where we get discovered by retro studios and replace david wise for donkey kong country returns 3
Jacksinthe
Banned
And I'm going to release nothing!
At least for a few more weeks. Getting everything setup for iOS this weekend. I'll have all new builds with proper enemies with AI, proper bosses with AI, etc for those that want to test a bit on iOS and Droid. Just PM me
Mystic River
Member
good luck! I see many people getting their games close to reality, but I still have a long road ahead , I am thinking now to start an early access and let people start playing with what I have an do monthly releases until the game is finished, not quite sure if people like to beta test games like that
I can't wait to release Horizon Danger, but I guess when the time comes I probably think differently about it.
Got enough time to polish everything since Greenlight is moving like a snail on acid and was planning to be done with it around december. 2nd Q in 2015 seems more likely with the way things are going.
In a way I dont mind the extra time but the uncertainty when I can release it is sorta my biggest fear. Don't want it to be a never ending story
Got enough time to polish everything since Greenlight is moving like a snail on acid and was planning to be done with it around december. 2nd Q in 2015 seems more likely with the way things are going.
In a way I dont mind the extra time but the uncertainty when I can release it is sorta my biggest fear. Don't want it to be a never ending story
Okay, an update on the Icon:
The votes were pretty evenly split, but with our own votes the "gameplay" icon won so we made a second iteration. It does stand out when placed in the Greenlight, but I'm not so sure if it's clear and good looking enough to get people to click on it. We are also prototyping a Plan B, but I'd love to hear your feedback on this one.
EDIT:Bah, it's a bit too big since it's not auto-scaled, I'll update a smaller one in a sec.
The votes were pretty evenly split, but with our own votes the "gameplay" icon won so we made a second iteration. It does stand out when placed in the Greenlight, but I'm not so sure if it's clear and good looking enough to get people to click on it. We are also prototyping a Plan B, but I'd love to hear your feedback on this one.
EDIT:Bah, it's a bit too big since it's not auto-scaled, I'll update a smaller one in a sec.
show me your skeleton
Member
i was going to reply earlier but i just had to take a call from square enix asking me to score final fantasy xii-2.
Hey hey hey! Peter here from Vogelsap, we're making The Flock.
We just released our newest trailer celebrating the launch our closed alpha. So far everything is going really well!
I'll quickly explain what The Flock is: The Flock is an asymmetrical first person multiplayer game where each player starts as one of the monsters called The Flock. The first player who grabs the coveted Light Artifact transforms into the Carrier, a smaller and slower creature but that player accumulates score over time. All other players (still Flock creatures) will now hunt down the Carrier. There's a couple more rules to the game but you can work them out from the trailer ;-).
Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJp25gyYNc
I have a bunch of keys to give away, so if you want to play the alpha this weekend send me a private message and I'll give you a key! I'd love to hear your feedback!
We just released our newest trailer celebrating the launch our closed alpha. So far everything is going really well!
I'll quickly explain what The Flock is: The Flock is an asymmetrical first person multiplayer game where each player starts as one of the monsters called The Flock. The first player who grabs the coveted Light Artifact transforms into the Carrier, a smaller and slower creature but that player accumulates score over time. All other players (still Flock creatures) will now hunt down the Carrier. There's a couple more rules to the game but you can work them out from the trailer ;-).
Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggJp25gyYNc
I have a bunch of keys to give away, so if you want to play the alpha this weekend send me a private message and I'll give you a key! I'd love to hear your feedback!
Oh hey Peter, I remember meeting you at CCEU14 earlier this year and I think I might've been one of the volunteers in charge of your table for the first day, but can't remember
Will you guys go there next year as well? We'll definitely be there with Ancestory; last time was pretty awesome and we'll be getting some actual funding this time.
Oh, and the Flock seems to have been improved massively since the last time I saw, awesome job! Feel free to send me a key as well (though I can't promise I have much time to test it right now)
So, our Sound Guy whipped a new prototype as well, which one do you think is better?
This was my thought. Would be awesomeImmortalize him or her as another NPC in the game!
Oh hey Peter, I remember meeting you at CCEU14 earlier this year and I think I might've been one of the volunteers in charge of your table for the first day, but can't remember
Will you guys go there next year as well? We'll definitely be there with Ancestory; last time was pretty awesome and we'll be getting some actual funding this time.
Oh, and the Flock seems to have been improved massively since the last time I saw, awesome job! Feel free to send me a key as well (though I can't promise I have much time to test it right now)
So, our Sound Guy whipped a new prototype as well, which do you think is better?
I like the new one better. I think it works better as an icon and it's less busy than the old one.
Candescence
Member
I've been thinking of writing a short story to establish and communicate the kind of stuff I'm trying to go for with my current project (specifically, characters and setting and whatnot, obviously). What do you guys think?
Holy crap! You are awesome, Jobbs. I AM NOT WORTHY.
But really, expect a PM from me. I really do want to play Ghost Song.
Which is frustrating, because I think Early Access could be a fantastic tool for developers, but things have been hampered by many said developers and the ignorance of the general public. Steam's handling of the early access system has been somewhat botched, too, I think.
Really, I would love to get feedback from players when it comes to mechanics long before the game is ready, though I'm also wary of making them pay for the privilege, unless it's a Kickstarter stretch goal. Though I guess that's what a demo is for, really.
Which is a shame, because there has been a steady, substantial stream of updates via the nightly builds, which are easily accessible, but most people are too ignorant to know about that. It's cool to know that, generally, when the devs put up new updates to the game on their blog, it'll generally be part of the nightly builds either immediately or very soon. By the time it comes out, it'll likely be far, far more substantial than Terraria ever was.
I like the look of this, reminds me of Metroid Prime. Interested to see where this is going.
Holy crap! You are awesome, Jobbs. I AM NOT WORTHY.
But really, expect a PM from me. I really do want to play Ghost Song.
Which is frustrating, because I think Early Access could be a fantastic tool for developers, but things have been hampered by many said developers and the ignorance of the general public. Steam's handling of the early access system has been somewhat botched, too, I think.
Really, I would love to get feedback from players when it comes to mechanics long before the game is ready, though I'm also wary of making them pay for the privilege, unless it's a Kickstarter stretch goal. Though I guess that's what a demo is for, really.
Which is a shame, because there has been a steady, substantial stream of updates via the nightly builds, which are easily accessible, but most people are too ignorant to know about that. It's cool to know that, generally, when the devs put up new updates to the game on their blog, it'll generally be part of the nightly builds either immediately or very soon. By the time it comes out, it'll likely be far, far more substantial than Terraria ever was.
I like the look of this, reminds me of Metroid Prime. Interested to see where this is going.
Since I'm working on a multiplayer turn-based strategy game (I mean, AI singleplayer is planned but multiplayer would presumably be key), Early Access does sound like a great way to balance, but I'm still undecided if I want to try that.
Basically it seems to me that balancing a strategy game that supports multiplayer would be difficult without a significant number of beta testers, and Early Access would be one way to get that. But on the other hand, small multiplayer games on Steam are well known (or so I feel) for dying almost immediately because the community is so small. Then it's hard to find a game, no one is happy, etc.
So that might be a downside, the community and attention might easily wear off so that even if the game is very balanced on release a month or two later, it lacks the impact. Anyone have some brilliant advice, especially in terms of multiplayer and balance?
Basically it seems to me that balancing a strategy game that supports multiplayer would be difficult without a significant number of beta testers, and Early Access would be one way to get that. But on the other hand, small multiplayer games on Steam are well known (or so I feel) for dying almost immediately because the community is so small. Then it's hard to find a game, no one is happy, etc.
So that might be a downside, the community and attention might easily wear off so that even if the game is very balanced on release a month or two later, it lacks the impact. Anyone have some brilliant advice, especially in terms of multiplayer and balance?
We've been pondering the same thing and will probably go to straight release unless the community wants other, but I'll definitely ask the guys of Interplanetary if they'd have time to answer your questions, but I think from what we've discussed is that even they don't know the right answer, especially before heading out from Early Access, but they did say that they would feel comfortable recommending us to go to straight release, even though we are going to have our hands full with balancing the game. The death of community can be real thing in an Early Access game, so I would definitely recommend at least having an AI and making sure the network is really up to it.
Thanks. I would want to basically have the game ready to go aside from PVP balancing concerns before Early Access anyway. At that point, it sounds like it probably is best to do the normal release if internal beta testing does not uncover issues, and if needed do unit balance patches later.
one thing to keep in mind, after the beta goes live next week, I can't guarantee my "keys for all neogaffers" policy. If it just so happens that tons of people suddenly want keys, while that's a nice problem to have, I don't know for sure that I'd be able to give them to everyone. I could see this as a thing that could potentially get out of hand.
..Or maybe no one will really give a shit -- I guess we'll see.
..Or maybe no one will really give a shit -- I guess we'll see.
well I'm clear on the matter that if you PM me for a key prior to monday, you'll definitely get one.
if this spills out of the game dev thread and into the general populous I may have to reclarify the deal or come up with a definite number.
or, again, maybe no one will really notice or care, as a very insecure person I'm always open to that possibility.
Just_myles
Member
I will wait for Ghost Song to release. I want to play in its most complete form. I am keeping a close eye on this and Axiom Verge.
I have no academic or otherwise background in game development or programming, and I'm possibly slightly mentally challenged on top of that, and somehow I have a game project doing pretty well. will = way.
AcceptableGhost
Member
SeanNoonan
Member
Are you asking specifically for a finished indie project?
I personally got into the games industry without any real academic experience - I got a job off the back of my portfolio of work that I was just building up in my free time. Since then I've been designer on some pretty big projects (Crackdown 2, Watch_Dogs, Far Cry 4, etc.) all without any formal training / education.
I just recently released my first indie title too, which was of a totally different style, genre and platform than my professional work - again, without any formal training or real education.
If you give enough of a shit, I'm sure you can succeed.
I left school because I didn't feel that the academic gains were significant. Though, maybe that's unique to me because I had already been a hobby dev for five years prior to enrolling in university.
Aside from simply having the intuition for it, I think the two main parts to being a good dev are research into the subject and hands-on experience. Nothing compares to building something on your own and figuring out things on your own, but it also helps to read studies and hear talks on various matters. At most schools, you're not going to get stuff like Gamasutra articles or peers to bounce ideas off of (as you do here and at TIGSource and more), nor lectures on game dev from others in the industry.
Computer science itself moves too fast for academia, and game dev moves faster. Academia can't keep up.
SHEER WILLPOWER.
Man, thanks for al the responses, that was pretty quick!
I'm about to finish my undergrad in economics, yet these past months I've been really conflicted on whether I'm in the right field, and part of the reason for this is because I've always dreamt of making my own game. Every time I go walk my dog I keep daydreaming about a game, different scenarios, gameplay etc... I wouldn't necessarily want to work in gaming, but perhaps study in computer science, which in turn could help me with whatever project I plan on doing on the side.
Anyway, thanks for the answers!
I'm about to finish my undergrad in economics, yet these past months I've been really conflicted on whether I'm in the right field, and part of the reason for this is because I've always dreamt of making my own game. Every time I go walk my dog I keep daydreaming about a game, different scenarios, gameplay etc... I wouldn't necessarily want to work in gaming, but perhaps study in computer science, which in turn could help me with whatever project I plan on doing on the side.
Anyway, thanks for the answers!
Just start making it.
There are a lot of starving indies out there, so I can't in good conscience recommend that you abandon your current career without some indication that you would be an amazing game designer, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be spending your spare time learning how to get started. Consider this your first step!
There are a lot of starving indies out there, so I can't in good conscience recommend that you abandon your current career without some indication that you would be an amazing game designer, but there's no reason why you shouldn't be spending your spare time learning how to get started. Consider this your first step!
Even when I was in the industry, many of our best people didn't have any formal education. The best ones were the ones that taught themselves and had the drive and passion to make stuff on their own before applying.
MetaWaddleDoo
Neo Member
Here's the current menu structure for Astral Gunners. Much improved from the older version which had all of this spread out across 4 different pages. Comments or criticism would be much appreciated.
Hey all, I'd appreciate some help with a thought experiment that's been in my head lately...
First, what would you call the perspective being used by Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger and the like, if you had to describe it without using those games as reference? Does it even have a name?
Second, what game in that perspective would you say had the most engaging and satisfying real-time action combat system, all other aspects of the game aside? Obviously Chrono Trigger was menu-based RPG combat so it doesn't fit what I mean, I'm talking more Secret of Mana or Link to the Past style of combat. I know there were a few other games with action combat in that perspective, but did any of them really focus on the combat more than the examples I just listed, perhaps with things like blocking, dodging, knockback physics, combos, power hits, counter attacks, etc etc?
I guess Third would be, do you think a high-action melee-combat-focused game could really even work in such a perspective, or that action game fans would find such a perspective appealing, or should such things be left to perspectives used by belt-scrollers (like Castle Crashers), side-scrollers (like Shank), and 3D 3rd-person action games (like Shadows of Mordor)?
First, what would you call the perspective being used by Secret of Mana and Chrono Trigger and the like, if you had to describe it without using those games as reference? Does it even have a name?
Second, what game in that perspective would you say had the most engaging and satisfying real-time action combat system, all other aspects of the game aside? Obviously Chrono Trigger was menu-based RPG combat so it doesn't fit what I mean, I'm talking more Secret of Mana or Link to the Past style of combat. I know there were a few other games with action combat in that perspective, but did any of them really focus on the combat more than the examples I just listed, perhaps with things like blocking, dodging, knockback physics, combos, power hits, counter attacks, etc etc?
I guess Third would be, do you think a high-action melee-combat-focused game could really even work in such a perspective, or that action game fans would find such a perspective appealing, or should such things be left to perspectives used by belt-scrollers (like Castle Crashers), side-scrollers (like Shank), and 3D 3rd-person action games (like Shadows of Mordor)?
As someone who is studying computer engineering I can tell you that most game making skills I have don't come from my formal education. Apart from being better at programming most things about making a game I learning by doing and reading/playing.
But knowing how to programme well and how certain things work does help in the game making process but those things are just a part from actually making a game.
So I think formal education does help and gives you some good baggage but it's not necessary since a lot of things you have to do are learned outside of college. At least when it comes to a course in computer science.
MetaWaddleDoo
Neo Member
I don't think there's a name for that perspective, but I've always thought of it as an "Angled Top-Down" view. Because gameplay-wise, the perspective works from a top-down view. But visually, you don't just see the tops of everyone's heads.
I can't think of any good examples of engaging combat systems with this perspective, but I'd imagine a game like this is entirely possible. The combat of such a game would probably be best taking design philosophies from top-down shooters (like a twin-stick shmup) and a side-scrolling beat 'em up (like Golden Axe). The main problems that would exist would probably be the same ones that exist in side-scrolling beat 'em ups where it's sometimes difficult to distinguish where exactly you can hit an enemy. Probably why most action games that come to mind for me are either completely top-down and only really involve shooting, or side-scrolling.
Technically, Isometric is a specific angle, and not the one used by Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger. The bottom edge of a building would be drawn at an angle in isometric, not as a straight line. Of course its often used to mean any top-down view at all in a 2D video game, and thus isn't as specific as I was looking for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_graphics_in_video_games_and_pixel_art
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graphical_projection_comparison.png
I guess from that article it would be "Oblique" but "Oblique" appears to be any number of possible variations so isn't particularly specific. Oh well, seems I will need to continue just referencing similar games to describe it in the future.
Oh, I see. Maybe 3/4 perspective is a better term:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThreeQuartersView
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThreeQuartersView
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