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[MalevolentPatent]

Ok I just saw that David Jaffe is the Game Director of God of War and the Creative Director of God of War 2. Dude, what are you doing on here.

Is he not allowed? He's probably been here longer than you have.

Edit: Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddd he has. By like 6 years.

 

[captainnapalm]

Is he not allowed? He's probably been here longer than you have.

Edit: Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnndddddd he has. By like 6 years.

I mean in regards to this issue and defending this guy.

Edit: Sorry, I was just momentarily shocked that he was getting involved in this when I saw his credentials. I think it's cool that industry people hang out here.

 

[NTIETS13A_Superiority]

I'll just explain it again.

I don't see the gray area on this one. If we all here agree this behavior was appalling, then clearly it is something that is basically universally regarded as inappropriate, the onus should be on him to not do it. The onus shouldn't be on the victim to tell him to stop. And this isn't exactly bar flirting, this is work. Come on.

People have right to be inappropriate in boudaries of law. Being offended or feeling uncomfortable do not give rights.

I mean, you read this stuff, there is people that nothing wrong was done. The lines of harassment arent measured by some magic spell that women say and presto! its officially morally and ethically wrong because now she told him to stop. A "No" is not needed and sometimes some guy will make the "boys will be boys" argument, the problem is when that guy is your boss.

Did you read the stupid shit the guy wrote? Stupid vagina shit. She has the power to ignore him if she wants. And it is your problem if you are worried about your job or position and not call out stupid shit. If it is real harassment, you should sue the fucker. Most will not give a flying duck about what happened here. Boss harassments are way more important issue than stupid shit that happened here. They are often continuous and uses boss's position of power.

 

[benny_a]

I mean in regards to this issue and defending this guy.

Way to sum it up.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

Ok I just saw that David Jaffe is the Game Director of God of War and the Creative Director of God of War 2. Dude, what are you doing on here.

It's quite frightening.

Yeah, the thing about the developer not saying anything is that Indie Statik is one of the biggest indie game sites. I wouldn't say anything either if I needed the coverage for my next project. I'd be careful and tell others to be careful.

 

[Devolution]

People have right to be inappropriate in boudaries of law. Being offended or feeling uncomfortable do not give rights.

What? You might want to take a gander at what harassment entails.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Why does she? Why is the burden on her to tell him to stop doing stupid behavior, when he's the one doing it? She was obviously trying to stay professional about it but he just kept at it over and over again.

I totally agree, man. I'm saying people are ignoring that fact so they can ask the question of why she didn't say anything, when part of the reason is right in front of them.

It's like asking why don't PA's on movie sets complain when the stars sexually harass them? Because they want to have a career. It's fucked up, but it's a statement of fact that needs to be part of the story so people understand why she couldn't say anything, not that she should've had too.

 

[RawNuts]

b- I think it's very fair to read the conversation and see how he COULD have gotten the idea that while she was not into his advances, she was not bothered by them and thus he was going to keep trying.

Perhaps it isn't a sexual harassment issue as much as it is a severe case of lacking game. What this dude needs is a wingman; I'll get him all the vagina he can kiss and all the nerves he can pleasure in no time.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

But your hindsight is merely dictating that she take a negative rather than neutral stance. For some this means an impact on their job. This is why sexual harassment in an industry is more complicated than "just say no."

This is true, but today you also have the power of an audience, as demonstrated with the circulation of this text exchange. Had she told him to stop and still received further advances, he would look even worse and her position strengthened even more when she releases the receipts.

Edit: Also, I am not speaking generally, because there definitely circumstances where a passive approach is the best approach, but towards this text exchange specifically.

 

[Seik]

He sounds like that dude in season 3 of Game of Thones that answer almost anything Daenerys says by: ''If you show me your cunt, maybe I'll do.'' and other offensive shit.

It's a joke there's still people like that in the industry.

 

[JDSN]

On what planet am I making excuses for him?!?!

 

[Prophet Steve]

Because:

a- she has every right to and it would have made anyone feel better to put this guy in his place.

b- I think it's very fair to read the conversation and see how he COULD have gotten the idea that while she was not into his advances, she was not bothered by them and thus he was going to keep trying. I don't like how the net has immediately labeled this guy as wrong in every sense of the word WITHOUT seeing that very real possibility (the possibility being that he-or anyone else- could have read the situation poorly). And so NOW if she is complaining (which I don't even know if she is, fyi) I think it's fair to say to her 'hey, check how you communicated with this tool- perhaps next time- if this did bother you- there are some things you could do differently' and I think it's fair to say that to her without it meaning I'm 'blaming the victim'.

c- AKA- it's not always black and white, as much as it feels good and easy and righteous to say 'ZERO TOLERANCE! IT IS ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SORT OF THING'.

David

ps. are we becoming friends?!?! Oh my god! I am so happy!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really cannot see how you can read the situation poorly if you bother even remotely. Now, in basically the entire first half of comments you do not get any response of the woman on your comments that are inappropriate. It does not even matter that later on you read something someone may see as what is an encouragement, since there is no sign of that before that point.

The comments are inappropriate, everyone should be completely aware of that. So if you make them to someone, and you do not get a response, you should back off. That said, in the first place you should not even making one of those responses before thinking it is very likely someone would respond positively to that.

There may be many reasons for not telling him off. I have had many comments or awkward situations where I ignore the other party in an attempt to end it and I am sure I am not the only one. Maybe she wanted things to not get even more awkward, maybe there she wanted to keep whatever relation they have to each other going. But if you have someone that already has crossed such an inapproriate point, I can imagine her first thought is not that if she would tell him to stop, he would stop and everything will be ok.

 

[runnin_blue]

Also, again, people are ignoring the power differential in action here. She's an indie developer and he's a journalist who writes about indie games. The implied message in all of this chat is basically, "tell me to stop flirting with you and say goodbye to any more stories about your game."

That's the real problem here and it's being ignored so people can talk about, "why didn't she just tell him to stop!"

Sorry but I think this is bullshit. As I said earlier in this thread, I have been harassed in the workplace and I told the person to fuck off, even though I knew it would affect my work and career. It's up to the individual.

And as I stated many times earlier, if she had simply stated "sorry dude, my phone's ringing, gotta go", it would not have offended or jeopardized her career.

Please don't try to say that I am defending him. He's a sad douche and his behaviour was inexscusable. But I stand by my points.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Also, again, people are ignoring the power differential in action here. She's an indie developer and he's a journalist who writes about indie games. The implied message in all of this chat is basically, "tell me to stop flirting with you and say goodbye to any more stories about your game."

That's the real problem here and it's being ignored so people can talk about, "why didn't she just tell him to stop!"

The power differential is a serious problem.

How do you reconcile her actions of revealing his identity with her being afraid of losing stories however? She is afraid of losing stories so she doesn't try to diffuse the situation, and yet she blasts it online without a problem?

 

[mechphree]

And here we go again, you either get raped/killed or you take it like a man and stay ''neutral''. If you people were leaders of state the world would be in constant war as clearly you feel there is absolutely zero point in talking. Every situation, every victim, every perpetrator is exactly the same and no situation can be diffused by simple talking.

I'm not sure what your point is.
I feel talking and having a honest debate about something is great. Sad thing is, I feel several people in this thread are incapable of having a honest debate. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say most of us being males have not had to deal with rampant sexual harassment by woman. We have no idea how it's like to feel that way constantly, especially in the workforce like a woman.

Sexisim and racism is deeply embedded in our society, and most of the time the perpetrators or people who don't get it don't see the problems it creates.

 

[CloudWolf]

I'll admit. The 'hope you have a great Sunday' at the end got a chuckle out of me. It's such an odd way to end a 'conversation' like that.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Ya' know, my roommate's sister mentioned a divorce a while back. She must want the D.

 

[Devolution]

This is true, but today you also have the power of an audience, as demonstrated with the circulation of this text exchange. Had she told him to stop and still received further advances, he would look even worse and her position strengthened even more when she releases the receipts.

I think she'll do just fine with the people who understand the moral quandary she was put in when it all started. It's a nice view into what women in the industry have to put up with in order to do business and carry on. Only this time it went viral for the rest of us to take a gander at because someone had enough. It should be enough but it's somehow not, she didn't do enough for some people's sakes and that's just ridiculous.

 

[docbon]

What matters is what happened, not hypothetical what-ifs.

Jaffe says what the guy did was clearly and completely gross. The guy himself should've known what he was doing was clearly gross. He did it anyway. He is at fault. How the woman who was exposed to his grossness reacted, all the what-ifs or maybes of have things could've gone down, doesn't matter. It's not at all her fault this dude did something he should've known was clearly gross, and which everyone here agrees is gross, to her.

Saying this isn't harassment because even though it is clearly gross and wrong(?) because she did not react in the perfect way in the moment is wrong.

I was hoping this conclusion would be more obvious to some. People shouldn't be seen as somehow accepting of blatantly disrespectful comments just because they weren't explicit in their response. It's really not too much to ask a person to have a shred of empathy towards someone they're engaging with.

edit: Also I can't believe devo is trading blows with the father of twisted metal over sexual harassment in a twitter conversation. This whole night has been so weird.

 

[JesseEwiak]

The power differential is a serious problem.

How do you reconcile her actions of revealing his identity with her being afraid of losing stories however? She is afraid of losing stories so she doesn't try to diffuse the situation, and yet she blasts it online without a problem?

Seems pretty simple. She showed the chats to somebody, who then released them for her after explaining why it's OK. Sort of (and I'm not making a 1:1 comparison here, it's just the easiest comparison), a friend who explains to a girl that yes, a guy getting you drunk enough you pass out raped you, so let's go to the police.

 

[MalevolentPatent]

He sounds like that dude in season 3 of Game of Thones that answer almost anything Daenerys says by: ''If you show me your cunt, maybe I'll do.'' and other offensive shit.

It's a joke there's still people like that in the industry.

It's called bartering, bro. You start with the cunny and let her talk you down to some merch. You don't want to lowball when you're looking for a hot scoop.

 

[Prophet Steve]

The signal for having a slightly more personal talk? Yes, maybe.

The signal for allowing him to say that he will kiss her on her vagina? Hell no. Which is the comment afterwards.

 

[Jintor]

Please don't try to say that I am defending him. He's a sad douche and his behaviour was inexscusable. But I stand by my points.

If I could just ask then - what exactly are you doing then?

 

[KissVibes]

Ahhhh yes, the good ol' signal.

If she doesn't send the signal of 'no,' she must be sending the signal of 'yes.'



I hope Sony is running better sexual harassment courses these days.

 

[davidjaffe]

In your video, you said that she sent mixed signals. That sounds like an excuse to me. You're actively giving him an out by saying this. How is it that, as someone who is considered so intelligent and is largely beloved for his contributions to his field, you don't think that's a little fucked up?

I do NOT say she sent mixed signals implying that she was making it clear she kinda liked his advances but also kinda didn't. It seems this is what you think I said. Even though if you watch the video you will clearly see I say the mixed signals she sends are 'is she ok with/humoring this kind of awful texting from the dude or is she annoyed'. My point is that THAT is not clear.

Never said she sent a mixed signal indicating that she wanted to get with this guy/dug his advances.

Ok, I'm off to bed. Night Gaf! Fun chatting with y'all as per usual!

 

[benny_a]

If I could just ask then - what exactly are you doing then?

He says it in the post: To have her avoid the lewd comments while being non-confrontational and thereby not poisoning future games coverage.

He says so in his post, which you didn't quote. It doesn't excuse the comments he makes, but that doesn't mean you have to continue to reply to them for all eternity.

In an alternative world she did stop the conversation at 10:23pm and then still publishing the part up to that point would result in the same discussion, maybe even more focused on the power implication of indie developer and person deciding on coverage of said indie developer.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

The signal for having a slightly more personal talk? Yes, maybe.

The signal for allowing him to say that he will kiss her on her vagina? Hell no. Which is the comment afterwards.

It really is incredible how rapidly that escalated. Like, he didn't even warm her up with an awkward massage at her desk.

 

[davidjaffe]

Ahhhh yes, the good ol' signal.

If she doesn't send the signal of 'no,' she must be sending the signal of 'yes.'



I hope Sony is running better sexual harassment courses these days.

What?!? Read the following tweet. Not saying it's a signal that she wants to have sexy time with this guy. Saying that talking about her divorce at the top of the conversation makes it clear that she's ok if the conversation is not PURE business level but she's ok talking about personal aspects of her life.

Man, you're so conditioned to jump at these talking point like buzz words that you don't even take details into account. It's so Pavlovian of you. Blech.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

I'm not sure what your point is.

That your comparison is ridiculous.

 

[Devolution]

What?!? Read the following tweet. Not saying it's a signal that she wants to have sexy time with this guy. Saying that talking about her divorce at the top of the conversation makes it clear that she's ok if the conversation is not PURE business level but she's ok talking about personal aspects of her life.

Man, you're so conditioned to jump at these talking point like buzz words that you don't even take details into account. It's so Pavlovian of you. Blech.

Personal =/= tell me how good you are at munching on carpet.

 

[JDSN]

The signal for having a slightly more personal talk? Yes, maybe.

The signal for allowing him to say that he will kiss her on her vagina? Hell no. Which is the comment afterwards.

haha, yeah, id be funny if he would spin it and say he was talking about some short of different non-flirtatious version of "the signal".

Edit: Oh, he did, fuck this im gonna go make lunch.

 

[Prophet Steve]

What?!? Read the following tweet. Not saying it's a signal that she wants to have sexy time with this guy. Saying that talking about her divorce at the top of the conversation makes it clear that she's ok if the conversation is not PURE business level but she's ok talking about personal aspects of her life.

Man, you're so conditioned to jump at these talking point like buzz words that you don't even take details into account. It's so Pavlovian of you. Blech.

Yes, they are probably some sort of friends. It is not pure business.

Not pure business != it might be ok to offer to kiss her vagina.

 

[Rocket Scientist]

Seems pretty simple. She showed the chats to somebody, who then released them for her after explaining why it's OK. Sort of (and I'm not making a 1:1 comparison here, it's just the easiest comparison), a friend who explains to a girl that yes, a guy getting you drunk enough you pass out raped you, so let's go to the police.

And that was her mistake. If she wanted to do something about this situation she should have talked to the guy. I fail to see how it is safer or wiser or better to put this online than actually talk to someone. Pretty sure someone would be more inclined to harm you after something like this than if you talk to them personally...

 

[RawNuts]

What?!? Read the following tweet. Not saying it's a signal that she wants to have sexy time with this guy. Saying that talking about her divorce at the top of the conversation makes it clear that she's ok if the conversation is not PURE business level but she's ok talking about personal aspects of her life.

Man, you're so conditioned to jump at these talking point like buzz words that you don't even take details into account. It's so Pavlovian of you. Blech.

Go to sleep already.

 

[marrec]

She mentioned her divorce and THAT is the Bat Signal that makes it okay to talk about personal aspects of her life.

Like her vagina.

 

[Billen]

Oh this is just painful. It reads like some pickup conversation from Anchorman.

"My penis in your vagina."

Holy shit female individuals must be fed up with crap like that.

Thinking about it, it feels as if it was performed by Borat at a party in Anchorman.

 

[Jintor]

He says it in the post: To have her avoid the lewd comments while being non-confrontational and thereby not poisoning future games coverage.

He says so in his post, which you didn't quote. It doesn't excuse the comments he makes, but that doesn't mean you have to continue to reply to them for all eternity.

alright, alright.

 

[Gbraga]

I've said it once but I think it's worth saying it again: You can't question the definition of harassment and then try to paint a clear picture of how a victim would react.

He doesn't have to know that this weird talk would put her off but she has to tell him "no", even if it's not the kind of thing she'd do because of her personality or fear for her work or whatever reason you can think of?

People deal with things differently, I'm the one who should be saying it's not black and white.

PS: This is not personally directed to anyone, honestly, just trying to show the way I see things.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

Personal =/= tell me how good you are at munching on carpet.

A: "My favorite color is blue. What is yours?"
B: "I want to give you a rusty trombone."

I don't know about you, but this is how all of my conversations go.

 

[Green Card]

Personal =/= tell me how good you are at munching on carpet.

Yeah I believe that is what he is saying.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I do NOT say she sent mixed signals implying that she was making it clear she kinda liked his advances but also kinda didn't. It seems this is what you think I said. Even though if you watch the video you will clearly see I say the mixed signals she sends are 'is she ok with/humoring this kind of awful texting from the dude or is she annoyed'. My point is that THAT is not clear.

Never said she sent a mixed signal indicating that she wanted to get with this guy/dug his advances.

Ok, I'm off to bed. Night Gaf! Fun chatting with y'all as per usual!

I don't understand why she NEEDS to be clear though. For his sake? It should have been clear to the guy doing the texting from the beginning that talking about the genitalia of an acquaintance might be a touch to much in an exchange where you're trying to find out the name of a video game for business purposes. If he started digging his own grave, the onus shouldn't be on her to pull him out. It should be on him to stop freaking digging.

 

[marrec]

Speaking of your divorce, how's the ol' vagina these days?

 

[NotLiquid]

I think the overarching point Jaffe's making in terms of this generally being preventable is one worth considering, lord knows I'd have already started questioning the person's integrity after his first mention of genitals. That comment alone almost felt sexist.

But really I can't say I would be fully aware of all the circumstances that transpired and even then that's purely shadowboxing. It's nice to rationalize for some good old discussion but the onus is still on the perpetrator, who could have just pretended he didn't do it but readily admitted he fucked up, and even admitted that he's a fucked up person. All I can hope for is for him to gain some perspective.

 

[davidjaffe]

I think she'll do just fine with the people who understand the moral quandary she was put in when it all started. It's a nice view into what women in the industry have to put up with in order to do business and carry on. Only this time it went viral for the rest of us to take a gander at because someone had enough. It should be enough but it's somehow not, she didn't do enough for some people's sakes and that's just ridiculous.

God you are so predisposed to this view that there's no use talking to you.

Let me just say this: if ANY woman at our business/office/working on our game would have to put up with this in order to do business and carry on, I would consider it a badge of shame I'd wear for life (given I'm a co-owner of the business and the game director). As much as I think many of y'all are getting this wrong-ish, I DO NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN EQUAL AND FAIR WORKPLACE for men and women, any orientation, race,etc.

Not all of us men are dicks trying to keep women down. I love working with women and attribute a lot of the success I've been lucky to have to a number of great women. Because of that- AND because I have 2 little girls whom I adore with every fiber- it would break my heart to ever learn I had made someone feel bad at their place of work because of their gender,etc.

Happy to make them feel bad if they are shit at their job and are making the game shit, however .

David

 

[Karkador]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKqgC_BR_pA

 

[Devolution]

A: "My favorite color is blue. What is yours?"
B: "I want to give you a rusty trombone."

I don't know about you, but this is how all of my conversations go.

I just roll into spitting:

"Lick it nice, lick it good suck this pussy, just like you should. My Neck, my back. Lick my pussy and my crack."

 

[JesseEwiak]

And that was her mistake. If she wanted to do something about this situation she should have talked to the guy. I fail to see how it is safer or wiser or better to put this online than actually talk to someone. Pretty sure someone would be more inclined to harm you after something like this than if you talk to them personally...

Actually, in a high profile moment like this, doing it online was the safest course of action. For instance, for all we know, her boss is kind of a sexist asshole who'd think along the same lines of Jaffe and ask her, "well, why didn't you stop him."

Considering the guy was selling PUA tactics on Youtube, I somehow doubt that confronting him the next day would've done much good. Especially when that can lead to more blowback. "Look man, I'm sorry I haven't done any stories on your game, but that girl you've got working for is real stand off ish. I'm trying to be a little funny and she shuts me down. But ya' know, ya' know how those wacky feminists are...."

 

[RawNuts]

She mentioned her divorce and THAT is the Bat Signal that makes it okay to talk about personal aspects of her life.

Like her vagina.

"It's finally time to make my move."

 

[runnin_blue]

If I could just ask then - what exactly are you doing then?

It's pretty clear to me.

 

[BobbyRobby]

She's not an employee so I guess both parties acted within their rights.

He laid down some terrible mack, and she showed everyone.

It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that the journalist was maybe autistic judging from that exchange. Totally oblivious to the social cues.