NaughtyCalibur
Member
If I were in her situation I would have faked an Internet outage and got back with him later. Awkwaaaaard.
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IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
- Thread starter benny_a
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jim-jam bongs
Member
Ew dude that's my daughter! I'll admit to stealing the odd belly kiss when I'm changing her because she does adorable Pillsbury Doughboy giggles, but we keep it above the belt in this household.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
This is why it's so hard to have a conversation about this:
Poster A: Why didn't she just block the guy or tell him to stop?
Poster B: Stop blaming the victim neanderthal
Poster A: WTF stop with the witch hunt you white knighting ahole
Honestly I can understand both arguments. Things get really weird when both sides bring up rape comparisons, because at the end of the day it was an online chat. It's hard for me to get pissed at Jaffe when the same thought went through my mind. "why didn't she just say fuck off, or quit as soon as she saw the comment. After reading the background story and I can see why she didn't say anything. I don't think that's victim blaming, but hey im not a woman so maybe I'm wrong.
Edit:
Dont want trouble from the mods
Poster A: Why didn't she just block the guy or tell him to stop?
Poster B: Stop blaming the victim neanderthal
Poster A: WTF stop with the witch hunt you white knighting ahole
Honestly I can understand both arguments. Things get really weird when both sides bring up rape comparisons, because at the end of the day it was an online chat. It's hard for me to get pissed at Jaffe when the same thought went through my mind. "why didn't she just say fuck off, or quit as soon as she saw the comment. After reading the background story and I can see why she didn't say anything. I don't think that's victim blaming, but hey im not a woman so maybe I'm wrong.
Edit:
Dont want trouble from the mods
jim-jam bongs
Member
Other people in this thread were banned for espousing exactly the same views as those for which he was banned. If there was any statement there at all it was more like "no poster is above the law".
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I was specifically talking about the pic he posted on his twitter.
jim-jam bongs
Member
That still doesn't really contradict what I said, though. Nobody is above the law, even a celebrity. Anyway, I thought that was a silly thing to say and I accidentally caught it before you edited it out so I don't see much point in belabouring the point.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Wait, that doesn't make sense. You are concerned with how you saw her respond, because you like to get all the facts? What facts are those?
PapaJustify
Member
Wow this thread is a slaughterhouse. Good to see another glorious day on GAF and the entire internet ending (at least in Europe). The day David Jaffe got banned from GAF.
In the end it doesn't matter if the mighty David Jaffe was felled. Even in God of War killing gods did absolutely nothing to change the landscape of the world.
And what facts might those be?
Vermillion
Banned
Just because it's praiseworthy to do certain things doesn't mean you should tell a victim that they should have done them. Particularly when the odds are stacked against them.
You hear about someone rushing into a burning house to save their neighbors or something. Great to hear that. At the same time, you realize that the odds are stacked against them, and they could have very well been killed themselves.
Here on the internet, you see how women often don't speak out because of the treatment that they'll get. Yet in this very thread, we have those that do. These people understand the sort of treatment they'll get and the responses they'll see, and they do it anyways. And it's nice to see that. But at the same time, we don't blame other women for not speaking up, because we understand that the odds are stacked against them, and it could very well go wrong for them.
If you can understand either of the above examples, you can also understand why a woman shouldn't have to speak out against sexual harassment/sexual assualt, etc. Because 1) the other person should know, and 2) the odds are clearly stacked against them.
...Like telling a kid how he could have saved his dad from some burglar. You might not think it's blame, but it is.
You hear about someone rushing into a burning house to save their neighbors or something. Great to hear that. At the same time, you realize that the odds are stacked against them, and they could have very well been killed themselves.
Here on the internet, you see how women often don't speak out because of the treatment that they'll get. Yet in this very thread, we have those that do. These people understand the sort of treatment they'll get and the responses they'll see, and they do it anyways. And it's nice to see that. But at the same time, we don't blame other women for not speaking up, because we understand that the odds are stacked against them, and it could very well go wrong for them.
If you can understand either of the above examples, you can also understand why a woman shouldn't have to speak out against sexual harassment/sexual assualt, etc. Because 1) the other person should know, and 2) the odds are clearly stacked against them.
...Like telling a kid how he could have saved his dad from some burglar. You might not think it's blame, but it is.
SeanNoonan
Member
As well as a bunch of people voicing their opinions, which seems to be a crime.
You must not have played GoW 3. The world went down the drain.
There were three of those?!
BolognaOni
Member
Had the conversation ended before that last posts I can kind of buy the Jaffe argument. Not really, because it certainly doesn't meet any normal standard for reasonable (also usually the legal standard, btw). However, if you're pretty familiar with the other person, drunk, I'm sure it happens. Would be polite to ask them to knock it off instead of spreading it around.
But... Sending that last monologue to anyone you aren't in an active sexual relationship with takes it from douchey-creepy to full on knocking on doors sex offender level. Way beyond joking around.
Also, without the 5am weirdness I'm pretty sure this never blows up anyway...
But... Sending that last monologue to anyone you aren't in an active sexual relationship with takes it from douchey-creepy to full on knocking on doors sex offender level. Way beyond joking around.
Also, without the 5am weirdness I'm pretty sure this never blows up anyway...
Vermillion
Banned
Ascension makes four.
Sheesh this so so cringey. Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong and a white knight lol
Hm, I wonder if the people thinking out loud if she could have curbed the abuse by telling the harasser to stop would actually give her that advice in real life.
I poised that question earlier but I would never say that sort of thing to the victim. (edit: actually, anywhere outside of these discussions, really) It's not my place, it would make the situation worse and talking to someone about how they could have avoided the horrible situation they were in is an insane thing to do.
But none of us are talking to her. We're on the internet discussing the situation, and as long as that's where that sort of discussion starts and stops I don't see a problem with it.
faceless007
Member
Several potential reasons have already been explained repeatedly in the thread. She was looking for a job in the industry and he was a member of the gaming press she might not want to burn bridges with, she had no way of knowing what his reaction to escalating the situation with hostility would be, she didn't want to risk angering him or pissing him off, many women find the best tactic in situations like this is to simply disengage rather than get aggressive, and perhaps most obviously, people often don't think completely rationally with perfect foresight of all possible scenarios when put into an uncomfortable and complicated situation and acting like they should is just tactless armchair quarterbacking.This is why it's so hard to have a conversation about this:
Poster A: Why didn't she just block the guy or tell him to stop?
Poster B: Stop blaming the victim neanderthal
Poster A: WTF stop with the witch hunt you white knighting ahole
Honestly I can understand both arguments. Things get really weird when both sides bring up rape comparisons, because at the end of the day it was an online chat. It's hard for me to get pissed at Jaffe when the same thought went through my mind. "why didn't she just say fuck off, or quit as soon as she saw the comment. After reading the background story and I can see why she didn't say anything. I don't think that's victim blaming, but hey im not a woman so maybe I'm wrong.
Edit:
Dont want trouble from the mods
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Sorry but after noticing the creepy guy posting some insane shit, I wondered how she was able to remain cool throughout the whole thing and why. If you think that's awful of me, then I apologize. After reading the context I can see why she did it. If you think that even asking these questions is unfathomable then I'm not sure what to tell you.
As for the facts see Faceless above.
And with that i'm out of here, this thread is a minefield.
.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Love how he so conveniently namedrops GAF, where most people disagree with him and he was just banned, No hidden motive there.
NO! I meant you must have really respected your wife, because you got a baby out of it. LOL! Oh god! I didn't even think it could be interpreted any other way!
What is "waiting for the facts" means, ive seen it used sporadically since halfway through this thread but no one has expanded on what it means.
And passively-aggressive complaining about mod justice outside of the proper channel, which is actually a crime.
And passively-aggressive complaining about mod justice outside of the proper channel, which is actually a crime.
NaughtyCalibur
Member
He posted this video before he was banned though.
Vermillion
Banned
Fair, allow me to rephrase:
I mean, technically, you can. When it comes down to what actually happened in that situation and why, the victim acted in the manner that they did because the odds are stacked against them. Such is the plight of a woman.
So you questioned how she acted because you wondered how she was able to act admirably?
So you jumped to some conclusion based on your incredulity that she should be able to "act cool" in this sort of situation, and then once you actually informed yourself you realized that her motivations were not whatever your jumped-to conclusion was, but something else.
I'm sorry, none of what you're saying actually adds-up into a coherent point.
Whoa!
CrudeDiatribe
Member
It's a text chat: pretty easy to control what you write and nobody can see your face and body language. You even get the chance to review what you wrote before you hit send. It's pretty amazing technology.
I'm uninformed about things like this, so I'm asking this sincerely; What odds are being stacked?
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There is a thing known as stopping. While Jaffe does make a point, he could've either found a better way to say his thoughts, or not say anything at all.
This was slightly wrong. He did make a horrible rape analogy, however.
weemadarthur
Member
Is it against GAF policy to quote a person after they've been banned, if one wishes to address a point they made?
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
I know this is one of those "gotcha" games but do you really not know what that means?
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't have any issue with how she handled the situation. Just considering the fact that she was dealing with someone in a position of power I believe I can begin to understand the anxiety that could follow turning someone who could harm your carrier down after they come on so inappropriately hard and so relentlessly, not to mention all the other factors involved.
But I've seen so many posts asking "well why didn't she ask him to stop?", which I think is a valid question even though ultimately of the wrong mindset, which are met with "stop blaming the victim" and "you're just part of the problem" when I feel this is a perfect place to educate why why just "telling him to stop" is not always an option.
Here are a couple of examples of how things can go wrong when doing the right thing.
Its not a gotcha thing, I have asked a couple of people and no answer, there is a screencap of the convo, an apology from the guy admitting the comments, im not one to rush into things but I seriously doubt there is a missing piece of this puzzle.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Hm, less fun.
Oh. I see. Isn't it frowned upon to twist someone's words like that? When I read that I was like holy shit no way someone would try that here.
anexanhume
Member
So, Jaffe seems unable to sympathize/empathize with the female perspective. There are societal/peer pressures to deflect comments for fear of souring relationships on a personal level, and when interfacing with press, one has to be careful to not endanger their professional relationships and burn bridges. Many freelance reviewers are afraid to speak ill of certain news outlets that treat them poorly or don't pay promptly (or at all) for fear of endangering their career.
Her hope was likely that she could deflect it and preserve the relationships without having to deal with breaking it off on a personal and/or professional level. Even saying that it makes her uncomfortable could endanger those relationships. If he's forward and brash enough to talk to her like that without her expressly inviting it, it's not hard to imagine he would be offended if she rejected him and wreak havoc on her personal and/or professional life.
Vermillion
Banned
In general, many women expect outright rejection to escalate the situation. When it comes to rejection, there are many guys who can't take a "no" (not even most guys, mind, but enough). There are people who would call them a bitch, escalate to violence, etc. Facing all of that, many women choose to go the passive route.
That's not to say that there aren't women that would outright say "no," but while that's nice, others don't wish to make things any worse for themselves, instead hoping the guy just goes away. And that's completely understandable as well.
That's fair enough - education's as good a goal as any.
Steven Pinker expounds upon this in his books:
His explanation of the feminist perspective of rape
He is an (among other things) an evolutionary psychologist, who approaches this purely from a such a perspective. I know this is OT, but I was curious myself and felt that this should be posted because neither the quotes nor the linked AMA went too much into detail about his beliefs.
Gold_Loot
Member
This right here. I feel the same way. I think the term "victim blaming" is getting tossed around a bit too losely.This is why it's so hard to have a conversation about this:
Poster A: Why didn't she just block the guy or tell him to stop?
Poster B: Stop blaming the victim neanderthal
Poster A: WTF stop with the witch hunt you white knighting ahole
Honestly I can understand both arguments. Things get really weird when both sides bring up rape comparisons, because at the end of the day it was an online chat. It's hard for me to get pissed at Jaffe when the same thought went through my mind. "why didn't she just say fuck off, or quit as soon as she saw the comment. After reading the background story and I can see why she didn't say anything. I don't think that's victim blaming, but hey im not a woman so maybe I'm wrong.
Edit:
Dont want trouble from the mods
And yes, both sides make some valid points.
I can't help but feel disappointed with what I'm seeing posted by some of our members here.
This us not a "thread for the books" as some people here have pointed out , but a sad one for sure.
He apologized and I can't fully blame him for writing that. Go read Jaffe's rape post and then you'll see why he wrote "basically".
I appreciate this. I'll look over these in a bit.
Maybe MGR is right: Violence only breeds Violence.
I don't agree with the passive route at all. I believe nothing is accomplished with a quiet voice. But I think I have a better understanding at, when against the wall, something like being passive is the only reasonable thing. Thank you for the explanation.
I /really/ wish people here would have this mentality. Kicking someone when they're down makes you look like an asshole.
jim-jam bongs
Member
It concerns me that "waiting for the facts" seems to mean "waiting for confirmation that my preconceived notions of gender politics apply to this situation" for many people. Men's Rights is clearly picking up steam as a movement.
Hahaha, we have a bent sense of humour in the Bongs household. And yeah, I do respect Mrs Bongs in every way possible. She's smart and successful, graduated cum laude from a seven sisters college and she even makes milk in her boobs. I'm a pretty lucky guy!
Hahaha, we have a bent sense of humour in the Bongs household. And yeah, I do respect Mrs Bongs in every way possible. She's smart and successful, graduated cum laude from a seven sisters college and she even makes milk in her boobs. I'm a pretty lucky guy!
weemadarthur
Member
A great many males in this thread are asking why offering behavioral ideas to harassment victims is considered so unacceptable by the female posters.
Look at recent studies regarding the differences between communication styles.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/yourvoice/conversation1.shtml
Men have a tendency to offer solutions to problems, as though it is the way to make the original problem. This reaction does not make women happy, because they are perfectly capable of finding their own solutions. They seek understanding in a conversation. Also, telling women solutions rather implies that they couldn't have thought of them, and is therefore patronizing.
If males wish to offer solutions, it would be more helpful if they came up with ways to explain to the harasser why he is wrong. Perhaps if a male explains it, it will be more understandable without the gender communication variances.
Thank you. I may address a point, buT will shit on nobody.
Look at recent studies regarding the differences between communication styles.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/yourvoice/conversation1.shtml
Men have a tendency to offer solutions to problems, as though it is the way to make the original problem. This reaction does not make women happy, because they are perfectly capable of finding their own solutions. They seek understanding in a conversation. Also, telling women solutions rather implies that they couldn't have thought of them, and is therefore patronizing.
If males wish to offer solutions, it would be more helpful if they came up with ways to explain to the harasser why he is wrong. Perhaps if a male explains it, it will be more understandable without the gender communication variances.
Thank you. I may address a point, buT will shit on nobody.
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