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[Morrigan Stark]

This is not me 'blaming a victim' as a) I don't really see a victim here and b) I don't forgive what the guy did (it was terrible) and say him being vulgar and inappropriate was her fault. But I do think she should have made her response more clear as while it doesn't read like she's interested in this creep (not by a long shot) it also doesn't read like she's just keeping things pure business.

And for the dick who felt I was saying that her mentioning her divorce was a signal that she wanted him to flirt- wow, you missed the point. I never said that and that was not my point. My point was that she was that by mentioning something as personal as her dealing with her divorce she was opening the conversation to a more personal level when she probably needed to keep it pure business (especially since he started flirting with her in his very opening line, making his intention to NOT be pure business clear).

Just when I thought my jaw couldn't drop further at such crass stupidity, I then saw this:

Wait, what are you saying? I didn't catch that cause I was distracted by the pussy on your face.

Aaaaaand this gem:

You're a troll, sir.

That or so conditioned regarding 'no no' words and phrases that some 1st year SWMS teach taught you as an undergrad that you refuse to allow context to exist in this dojo.

Let me make a l'll quiz for you so your can best understand what I said on twitter. Here's a question:

Imagine you are- God forbid- being raped. You have two choices:

a- remove a gun hidden in your waistband and shoot the freak raper dead.

b- engage the rapist in conversation about the latest batch of comics you purchased in hopes the rapist is a fellow comic fan and thus will humanize you and stop raping (yes, this is STUPID on purpose).

Now, which is the better way to react to the rape, a situation that EVERYONE agrees is horrific, not your fault, and should not be happening in the first place?

TLDR: I can say the woman could have handled the situation better while still saying NOTHING about this was her fault.

Fucking wow. The gift that can't stop giving, eh? Keep digging, it went from appalling and disgusting to pretty much entertaining now.

I'd say "go home, you're drunk", but you appear to be home

lol

I'm kind of disturbed that everyone's directing their hate at Jaffe now and not Mr Casanova (Mattingly).

I'm not. Mattingly at least apologized for his behaviour. In the crassest, most insincere nonpology way, mind you, but at least he realized that what he did was wrong, and he isn't saying anything like "she never told me to stop, how could I have known I was being wildly creepy and inappropriate?!" and such.

Not gonna spend a lot of time justifying my reporting here - as bizarre and disturbing as your reaction is - but I will say that I am quite glad we were able to publish this story, and I hope it helps dissuade people from acting this way in the future. It's hard to really understand this darker side of the industry's culture unless you've talked to women and heard the sickening private stories that they don't want to share with everyone, and I hope that as the months and years go on, more and more of this sort of stuff becomes public.

Ditto. I'm glad you posted this, myself, and I hope you continue doing that.

Would you say that you're "concerned"?

Hahahahaha, well played

 

[BobbyRobby]

Would you say that you're "concerned"?

I think she handled herself fine. She seems like she kept her cool.

The guy was being a creep and she exposed him.

I don't like that there are a lot of people treating the woman like a wounded puppy, ascribing feelings of fear and trauma to her.

Rape was brought up by your buddy Jaffe. Frozen in fear was brought up as a response to Jaffe's nonsense analogy. Nobody thinks the woman in this incident was frozen in fear. Keep fighting the good fight, though.

I don't know Jaffe. I just didn't like the dogpile on him. I also don't really care for his analogy either.

 

[thequickandthedead]

I haven't been fine with the way this thread has been going for awhile, but short of going on a ban spree or stifling discussion by locking the thread, all we can do is to encourage people not to call each other names, and attempt to address the various arguments.

This is your GAF, too. If you want this thread not to be awful, you all have the power to make it that way.

While this is true, i feel that this is a completely different thread to what it was initially meant to be. Literally so many posts reek of passive-aggressive hostility. While i understand that people have very strong opinions on this topic, it still feels like some people are just trying to sling shit.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[besada]

While this is true, i feel that this is a completely different thread to what it was initially meant to be. Literally so many posts reek of passive-aggressive hostility. While i understand that people have very strong opinions on this topic, it still feels like some people are just trying to sling shit.

Just my 2 cents.

If you have question or suggestions about moderation policy, please PM a mod. Discussing moderation in thread always turns into a nightmare, which is why it's forbidden in the ToS.

 

[Karkador]

I don't know Jaffe. I just didn't like the dogpile on him. I also don't really care for his analogy either.

Public figure sounds off about controversial subject in a patronizing and stubborn way. I know it may sometimes feel like pointless shouting in a vacuum to argue this stuff on GAF, but this is an actual person in the game industry who at least some people listen to, answer to, or have to deal with in some manner.

 

[Nerokis]

I'm not. Mattingly at least apologized for his behaviour. In the crassest, most insincere nonpology way, mind you, but at least he realized that what he did was wrong, and he isn't saying anything like "she never told me to stop, how could I have known I was being wildly creepy and inappropriate?!" and such.

I agree completely. Both Jaffe and Mattingly revealed blind spots, but Jaffe absolutely refuses to see his own rather large one.

 

[Gold_Loot]

Generally publicizing something like this is bad for all concerned. Usually taking it public happens either by accident, through forwarding something to friends which then gets forwarded further, or because there aren't sufficient remedies in place and publicizing it seems like the only possible course of action to get any resolution. (This is one reason why there's been a lot of pressure recently for conventions to have clear harassment policies in place--so that victims have recourse and a clear understanding of what they can do in response to harassment, and so that the official response can be more precise and appropriate than the whole internet jumping on your head.)

In this particular case, while I'm not absolutely certain, it sounds like the person forwarded this conversation to a friend of theirs, who then posted it with names redacted on their Twitter. And it escalated from there.

Bolded-
Hopefully something like that happens soon. Obviously the guy was a jerk, but ruining ones livelyhood and (to a leser extent career) over being said jerk is a bit much IMO. It's a sad state of affairs for all parties involved I'm afriad.

 

[Featheredkitten]

I agree completely. Both Jaffe and Mattingly revealed blind spots, but Jaffe absolutely refuses to see his own rather large one.

Some people refuse to even contemplate points outside or opposite of their own. :/

 

[marrec]

Bolded-
Hopefully something like that happens soon. Obviously the guy was a jerk, but ruining ones livelyhood and (to a leser extent career) over being said jerk is a bit much IMO. It's a sad state of affairs for all parties involved I'm afriad.

Hopefully Josh learns something from this. We have a few industry people who've publicly stuck their heads in the sand and caused a permanent black mark to their brand...

I think Josh needs to have a nice long talk with Jim Sterling.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I think Josh needs to have a nice long talk with Jim Sterling.

No, he just needs to stick his head down and go back to work.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I'm probably gonna make one last post before I step out of this topic...Just kidding! I'll probably be back after I nap or something.

I'll be straight. You'll probably see me in topics about Dragon's Crown, Bayonetta, Senran Kagura, anon because I have no qualms with games like that. Some might call me a perv. Do so if you must, I'll take the blows. I'm just saying this because it may be disparate to some that I'm pushing points in this topic but THIS is the type of thing that, without question, I just can't get behind.

This is a woman who was ready to have a pleasant business conversation and had a big back hoe full of douchebaggery dropped upon her in spades. No matter what way you slice it, the guy went 20 steps over the line by the time he was in the third post and pushed it during and long after the conversation had ended. It WAS fucked up. No bones. The reason people keep mentioning how hindsight is 20/20 in this topic is because it's true. It's completely simple and easy to say what should have been done in such a situation. But being t-boned by the "cunnilingus single entendre" semi is much more of a different, uncomfortable and awkward situation that being on the other side and saying, "Oh yeah, I could have done this". She had a multitude of considerations to make that were probably weighing heavily on her head. I guarantee she went through her own volley of should or shouldn't I's in her own head. In the end she made her calculations and did what she felt was best for her own sanity. If you feel that was wrong, fine. You're not her though and you didn't have to trudge through the exact same situation. She didn't choose the situation and yet handled it with her own best course. Calling attention to what she did and didn't do, or what she did and didn't consider takes away from the person who was at fault from the very beginning: the guy. If we want to stop this from happening again, that's where the picking apart, analysis, discussion, and education should begin: with the one making others feel uncomfortable.

On the topic of her allowing it to go public. I very sincerely doubt her goals are to tie up Casanova and feed him to the industry/internet wolves. It's more than likely not to put him out of a job, or get him forever vilified, or to have his house egged. I see it more as a plea: "I love games. But look. Men, women, old and young. Please. Please. PLEASE!! LOOK! This is what it is like in here for women. It's fucked up, it's not ok, and it happens too damned often. Please take notice. I am not weak, I am not cowardly, I am not fearful, I'm just so freaking frustrated. This is a tiger that is clawing at me. Please don't tell me to just punch it on the nose. Please don't tell me to knife it in the stomach. Please don't tell me to run away. Let's please just agree that the tiger needs a goddamned leash put on it so people stop getting hurt in the first place." I sincerely hope that people can see it this way. It's time to stop trying to find ways for everyone to come out rosy. It's time to stop ending the exchanges with only one side coming out uncomfortable. Let's make the other guy uncomfortable for once.

For me, I'm glad that the founder apologized. I hope he learned a lesson and carries himself differently in the future. I hope people can forgive him and that even he and this lady can go back to being buds or whatever. But more over I hope, hope, hope that alot of people who have seen this fallout can temper the way they behave toward the opposite sex in the future.

 

[Wazzy]

I agree completely. Both Jaffe and Mattingly revealed blind spots, but Jaffe absolutely refuses to see his own rather large one.

Yup.

It's pretty sad to see someone act so oblivious to their victim blaming.

 

[Riposte]

Damn, Jaffe should have listened to what I was say saying. Directly bringing rape into this is like throwing a loaded gun into a melee. There's not much worth arguing about here (you'll just get dirt on yourself for nothing) and if anyone has a interest in reducing the amount of penance the INDIE GAMER dude has to pay they should be focused on forgiveness rather than circumstance of his guilt.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Damn, Jaffe should have listened to what I was say saying. Directly bringing rape into this is like throwing a loaded gun into a melee. There's not much worth arguing about here (you'll just get dirt on yourself for nothing) and if anyone has a interest in reducing the amount of penance the INDIE GAMER dude has to pay they should be focused on forgiveness rather than circumstance of his guilt.

Would say....

He brought a gun to a knife fight?

You did, but I just wanted to make the obvious joke.

 

[MC Safety]

I had thought the woman in question was a PR agent. They go through a lot of nonsense to ensure a good working relationship with their clients and the outlets they serve.

I guess she's a game developer, though. One who had the misfortune of befriending a very awkward human being.

 

[Gold_Loot]

Hopefully Josh learns something from this. We have a few industry people who've publicly stuck their heads in the sand and caused a permanent black mark to their brand...

I think Josh needs to have a nice long talk with Jim Sterling.

I'm probably gonna make one last post before I step out of this topic...Just kidding! I'll probably be back after I nap or something.

I'll be straight. You'll probably see me in topics about Dragon's Crown, Bayonetta, Senran Kagura anon because I have no qualms with games like that. Some might call me a perv. Do so if you must, I'll take the blows. I'm just saying this because it may be disparate to some that I'm pushing points in this topic but THIS is the type of thing that, without question, I just can't get behind.

This is a woman who was ready to have a pleasant business conversation and had a big back hoe full of douchebaggery dropped upon her in spades. No matter what way you slice it, the guy went 20 steps over the line by the time he was in the third post and pushed it long after the conversation had ended. It WAS fucked up. No bones. The reason people keep mentioning how hindsight is 20/20 in this topic is because it's true. It's completely simple and easy to say what should have been done in such a situation. But being t-boned by the "cunnilingus single entendre" semi is much more of a different, uncomfortable and awkward situation that being on the other side and saying, "Oh yeah, I could have done this". She had a multitude of considerations to make that were probably weighing heavily on her head. I guarantee she went through her own volley of should or shouldn't I's in her own head. In the end she made her calculations and did what she felt was best for her own sanity. If you feel that was wrong, fine. You're not her though and you didn't have to trudge through the exact same situation. She didn't choose the situation and yet handled it with her own best course. Calling attention to what she did and didn't do, or what she did and didn't consider takes away from the person who was at fault from the very beginning: the guy. If we want to stop this from happening again, that's where the picking apart, analysis, discussion, and education should begin: with the one making others feel uncomfortable.

On the topic of her allowing it to go public. I very sincerely doubt her goals are to tie up Casanova and feed him to the industry/internet wolves. It's more than likely not to put him out of a job, or get him forever vilified, or to have his house egged. I see it more as a plea: "I love games. But look. Men, women, old and young. Please. Please. PLEASE!! LOOK! This is what it is like in here for women. It's fucked up, it's not ok, and it happens too damned often. Please take notice. I am not weak, I am not cowardly, I am not fearful, I'm just so freaking frustrated. This is a tiger that is clawing at me. Please don't tell me to just punch it on the nose. Please don't tell me to knife it in the stomach. Please don't tell me to run away. Let's please just agree that the tiger needs a goddamned leash put on it so people stop getting hurt in the first place." I sincerely hope that people can see it this way. It's time to stop trying to find ways for everyone to come out rosy. It's time to stop ending the exchanges with only one side coming out uncomfortable. Let's make the other guy uncomfortable for once.

For me, I'm glad that the founder apologized. I hope he learned a lesson and carries himself differently in the future. I hope people can forgive him and that even he and this lady can go back to being buds or whatever. But more over I hope, hope, hope that alot of people who have seen this fallout can temper the way they behave toward the opposite sex in the future.

Yep, and all of this could have happened without going public too. Yes there are men among the industry that are complete shitheads (any indusrty really) and there are plenty of good men and women out there too. I just don't feel we need to make an example out of this guy and hang him out to dry over talking out of line in a drnken stuper like he did.
It's just my two cents on the matter.

 

[la flama blanca]

Has this woman stated why she continued the conversation?

 

[Wazzy]

Has this woman stated why she continued the conversation?

Does it matter?

 

[Karkador]

Yep, and all of this could have happened without going public too. Yes there are men among the industry that are complete shitheads (any indusrty really) and there are plenty of good men and women out there too. I just don't feel we need to make an example out of this guy and hang him out to dry over talking out of line in a drnken stuper like he did.
It's just my two cents on the matter.

Why not? Especially when there are still people out there who don't believe this sort of thing even happens at all. Thinking this shouldn't be put out there is pretty similar to saying "it didn't happen"

Of course it matters, what? The dude was a complete fucking moron, but it helps to keep things in perspective when you have facts at hand. There are way too many assumptions in this thread over an issue that people make sound like murder.

There is a chat log, exactly how much more evidence do you need to keep things in perspective?

 

[la flama blanca]

Does it matter?

Of course it matters, what? The dude was a complete fucking moron, but it helps to keep things in perspective when you have facts at hand. There are way too many assumptions in this thread over an issue that people make sound like murder.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

There are way too many assumptions in this thread over an issue that people make sound like murder.

While you can make a claim that people are taking this too far out of hand, this is ridiculous.

 

[Wazzy]

Of course it matters, what? The dude was a complete fucking moron, but it helps to keep things in perspective when you have facts at hand. There are way too many assumptions in this thread over an issue that people make sound like murder.

Why exactly would it matter if she said her reasoning for continuing the conversation? It just seems like an excuse to find something to blame her for.

The reasoning isn't important because the only thing that matters is this guy crossed the line.

 

[JDSN]

Of course it matters, what? The dude was a complete fucking moron, but it helps to keep things in perspective when you have facts at hand. There are way too many assumptions in this thread over an issue that people make sound like murder.

It really doesnt matter, and what assumptions are you talking about?

 

[la flama blanca]

Why exactly would it matter if she said her reasoning for continuing the conversation? It just seems like an excuse to find something to blame her for.

The reasoning isn't important because the only thing that matters is this guy crossed the line.

Relax with the witch hunt. I just want to know details if there are any, I'm just curious, that's all. I wouldn't blame her for her actions, but I'd like some insight on what she's said if anything.
Ok, I apologize for my previous statements, not trying to stir anything up. She handled it well, I wanted to just find out if there were any follow ups from her in reaction to this hitting the web.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Relax with the witch hunt

'Murder', 'witch hunt'.

If you really, honestly think things are this intense, then you should step away from the keyboard.

 

[kevm3]

Look like what Jaffe's saying is the dude was wrong for his over the top sexual comments, but on the other hand, she should have been more clear and simply told him, "Look, would you please stop, I'm not feeling how you're coming at me."

 

[Wazzy]

Look like what Jaffe's saying is the dude was wrong for his over the top sexual comments, but on the other hand, she should have been more clear and simply told him, "Look, would you please stop, I'm not feeling how you're coming at me."

We know what he was saying. It's called victim blaming.

 

[Poltergust]

Um, this thread lost me. It was originally about what this guy on IndieStatik said to the woman on Facebook, and then the focus shifted to Jaffe for some reason...? Can someone give me a brief explanation here?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Um, this thread lost me. It was originally about what this guy on IndieStatik said to the woman on Facebook, and then the focus shifted to Jaffe for some reason...? Can someone give me a brief explanation here?

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

 

[Wazzy]

Um, this thread lost me. It was originally about what this guy on IndieStatik said to the woman on Facebook, and then the focus shifted to Jaffe for some reason...? Can someone give me a brief explanation here?

To add on, he joined this thread trying to defend his shitty views while Devo called him out.

 

[Poltergust]

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

*sigh*

The ignorance of some people (if what you said is accurate, at least).

Wait, and he came on here to defend his statements? That's... odd.

 

[BobbyRobby]

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

This is not what happened.

 

[Poltergust]

This is not what happened.

OK, then what did happen? I don't want to jump to any conclusions here. >.>

EDIT:

Spoiler

Hm, I should have just edited my above post. Now I know why people like doing that for quoting posts that come after theirs.

EDIT2:

If you're really interested then you should read the thread. All you're going to get are filtered versions of reality.

I guess I should, huh.

 

[benny_a]

OK, then what did happen? I don't want to jump to any conclusions here. >.>

If you're really interested then you should read the thread. All you're going to get are filtered versions of reality.

 

[Wazzy]

If you're really interested then you should read the thread. All you're going to get are filtered versions of reality.

I think it's entirely fair to not want to go through 35 pages when he could just get a summary.

OK, then what did happen? I don't want to jump to any conclusions here. >.>

He was victim blaming. He put the onus on her for not saying "no" or "stop" in regards to the conversation.

He got called out in this thread so he decided to come and post in it defending his horrible victim blaming.

 

[besada]

Um, this thread lost me. It was originally about what this guy on IndieStatik said to the woman on Facebook, and then the focus shifted to Jaffe for some reason...? Can someone give me a brief explanation here?

If only Lionel Mandrake were here.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Woah, this thread blew up.

... wat. Jaffe came in here and started posting? Double down David Jaffe everyone! And he got banned! Damn!

 

[kevm3]

Associating what Jaffe said with telling rape victims they had it coming is VERY dishonest

Jaffe essentially is saying he made inappropriate remarks, but she should have been clearer in shutting down his advances. He's saying the moment she saw that dude's weird comments, she should have either told him not to remark like that again or shut down the conversation instead of continuing on like nothing happened.

 

[pokeystaples]

So we've moved on to telling sexual assault victims how they should deal with a situation in which they feel threatened, vulnerable and powerless.

I don't know how to fully explain how much it depresses me that a well known game developer is taking time out of his day to patronize even more victims today.

"She should have..."

Let me stop you right here. There is no magic bullet for each and every rape situation. They come in all different shades and sizes. You want to talk grey area. That's the grey area. There is no universal way for a woman to handle rape. Sometimes you let it happen because gee golly he could harm me in worse ways, like me ending up dead which is what does happen to some. But please, keep lecturing the crowd on how victims can prevent events they typically don't see coming. And here it's the same.

Spend your time running down the events after the fact in your mind from a place of complete and utter privilege. What's the reason you think she can simply stay stop and it all goes away and everything's fine? Because YOU can. You lack the basic thought process that allows a person to see past their own perceptions called empathy. True empathy is knowing and realizing that not only is she a person, she's a person put in a precarious situation she didn't fucking ask for and now she has weigh her choices about how to handle it. And your answer to the obvious question of what to do: shame the asshole that put her there is to dissect every little thing she did in order to I dunno, make yourself relevant.

Bravo sir, bravo.

.

PREACH! I think the real issue here is that a lot of people are coming from a place of privilege that will not allow them to see this from the other side. "She should have..." but she fucking didn't and no one knows how they would react in that situation. It's happened to me, and I would guess, every single woman who has been on the internet long enough. The thing is...you learn to deal with things in one of two ways. You ignore, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, or you go off and risk whoever is tossing the BS your way to rage on you, which happens more than people care to admit.

 

[Prophet Steve]

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

Holy shit, not at all, fuck you.

I do not agree with Jaffe's views, but this is not what he said at all.

 

[dark_prinny]

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

This is straight up bullshit.

 

[Poltergust]

If only Lionel Mandrake were here.

Someone deploy the GAF Chronicler signal!

 

[JDSN]

Um, this thread lost me. It was originally about what this guy on IndieStatik said to the woman on Facebook, and then the focus shifted to Jaffe for some reason...? Can someone give me a brief explanation here?

Some bits from this thread:

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

In hindsight I can see how that was a stupid thing to write. That's why I wrote the 'basically'. Because he didn't say that, but what he did say was, in my mind, very close to that. But I should not have written that in reply to a guy asking what was going on, you are right.

 

[Reebot]

Jaffe went on Twitter saying that it was her fault, and basically said that rape victims had it coming.

I don't have the links, but it was something.

That is a severe distortion of his already controversial enough words.

 

[APF]

Yep, and all of this could have happened without going public too. Yes there are men among the industry that are complete shitheads (any indusrty really) and there are plenty of good men and women out there too. I just don't feel we need to make an example out of this guy and hang him out to dry over talking out of line in a drnken stuper like he did.
It's just my two cents on the matter.

So if the founder of a press outlet contacts me and starts making racist comments, I'm in the wrong for reluctantly agreeing to publicize it after sharing the transcript with a friend and having multiple well-known voices in my industry responding by saying we need to police ourselves and name the people who do things like this?

Edit: here's Jaffe's dumb-as-nails post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97942091&postcount=1553

 

[Figboy79]

In some cultures, offering to kiss a woman's vagina is the ultimate sign of respect.

Somehow, your comment, coupled with your avatar made me laugh, and I don't know why.

The thought just popped into my head, "You must have really respected her." and then I started laughing out loud at work. Sorry.

Also, this is such a despicable thing to do, especially on something like Twitter/Facebook. It's just a sad way to try and hook up with someone, drunk or not.

 

[Wazzy]

So if the founder of a press outlet contacts me and starts making racist comments, I'm in the wrong for reluctantly agreeing to publicize it after sharing the transcript with a friend and having multiple well-known voices in my industry responding by saying we need to police ourselves and name the people who do things like this?

Edit: here's Jaffe's dumb-as-nails post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97942091&postcount=1553

That rape analogy. So fucking bad it hurts reading it.

 

[Dr.Acula]

David Jaffe's youtube video defending his position.

Bumping for insanity.

This vid is hard to watch.

 

[dark_prinny]

So if the founder of a press outlet contacts me and starts making racist comments, I'm in the wrong for reluctantly agreeing to publicize it after sharing the transcript with a friend and having multiple well-known voices in my industry responding by saying we need to police ourselves and name the people who do things like this?

Edit: here's Jaffe's dumb-as-nails post http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97942091&postcount=1553

Jaffe's post really was unfortunate, to say the least.