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IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev

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Interfectum

Member
Well he wasn't raping her or anything, and he wasn't blackmailing her either.

There is still a power hierarchy there. He is a journalist for a fairly well known indie gaming site and she is an indie game developer. She had to make some tough, quick decisions and she had to take into account more than just herself.
 

suzu

Member
Criticizing how she handled it does sound like one is blaming her for "not doing it right". That may not be your intent, but that's what it is. Yeah everyone agrees that the guy is a scumbag, but if she didn't explicitly tell him he was being one, well it's on her right?

The last thing a victim wants to hear from supporters is how she should've did something else. Hindsight... what.

It's likely she thought the way she handled it gave the guy an out (and at the same time herself one too). It's not her problem that he didn't see the obvious and kept going full speed ahead. It's quite clear to anyone who isn't socially stunted that his behavior was unwanted.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
There's a lot of people doing a better job of dissecting your opinion but I would like to say something. Have you ever been literally frozen in fear? It's a terrifying experience. Now imagine a rape victim who was so scared and confused that she just didn't react. And now you come along all big and macho and say "I'm not gonna tell you how you should've reacted, but you should've fought back!"


Do you know how absolutely disgusting that would be? How that would make her feel?

obviously not, if he understood empathy (or valued it more than internet attention) he wouldn't be running his mouth
 
You continue to miss the point.

I'm not telling YOU how to respond to ANYTHING.

I'm saying that I can say I disagree with how she responded to the situation w/out saying she was in ANY WAY responsible or at fault for the terrible situation.

Seems the divide between us is that once she is placed in a category of 'victim' the ONLY response you will allow is to shower her will well wishes and hugs and 'Oh you poor thing's. And she deservers ALL of those wonderful, supportive reactions to her terrible situation and more! I agree with that- but I also think me having an opinion on how she handled it doesn't take away from my desire for her to feel better and to never have had to deal with this at all.

Agree to disagree, agree to hate each other- fine by me.

Gotta go to work- later Gaf!

David
I see where he's coming from. Absolutely. I wish people would understand this is in HINDSIGHT, if anyone I knew was in danger of going through the same situation (practically every female ever) I'd wish that they handle the situation differently, that doesn't make dude a monster or out of touch, and its part of the discussion, so why shouldn't it be said?
 

cameron

Member
I guess Jaffe isn't concerned with how the public views him or his games anymore. Not that anyone would remember such titles as Calling All Cars, but you'd think a little more decorum would be exhibited on his part.

Dude can say whatever he wants while riding on the coattails of God of War and Twisted Metal. Bomba after bomba, publishers will still bank roll him. He's immune to the consequences of his verbal diarrhea on twitter. Is my post a bit offensive? I don't know, but I shall continue until Jaffe signals me to stop. His recent analogy suggested he is open to it.
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Now imagine a rape victim who was so scared and confused that she just didn't react. And now you come along all big and macho and say "I'm not gonna tell you how you should've reacted, but you should've fought back!"

Do you know how absolutely disgusting that would be? How that would make her feel?

He doesn't know and doesn't care. He had to go work. More important things to do and such.
 
What some people seem to misunderstand about rape (not saying that you are) is that it's not about sex, it's about control and power and rage. If someone with those feelings is attacking someone else, how likely do you think the victim is to survive when they fight back? Remembering that it's about control, power, and anger. Not bloody likely is the answer. Making your attacker more angry is not how you survive it.

These are the things most women know, this is why it's hard to reject unwanted advances, this is why we don't appreciate being told "Just fight back". Men and women are coming from different perspectives for these kind of encounters. Rejecting a woman is easy for men (Shut up), rejecting a man, especially one who might be sexist and certainly has power over you is a difficult proposition for a woman. It sucks, but that's what it is.

edit:


I would say from personal experience 8 or 9 out of 10 see politeness as politeness it's the last one or two that cause the problem. And trust me, being put in a situation where someone is quite obviously imagining you naked and thinking about...doing nasty things to you is one in which you don't want to be ever again. Makes you rethink being thought of as a frigid bitch.

Not necessarily.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1a67x4/i_am_steve_pinker_a_cognitive_psychologist_at/c8ug2in
Steve Pinker said:
I believe that the rape-is-not-about-sex doctrine will go down in history as an example of extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds. It is preposterous on the face of it, does not deserve its sanctity, is contradicted by a mass of evidence, and is getting in the way of the only morally relevant goal surrounding rape, the effort to stamp it out.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1a67x4/i_am_steve_pinker_a_cognitive_psychologist_at/c8uhbwo
Steve Pinker said:
It's the "moralistic fallacy," the idea that we should shape the facts in such a way as to point to the most morally desirable consequences. In the case of rape, the fear was that if rape has a sexual motive, then it would be natural, hence good; and instinctive, hence unavoidable. Since rape is bad and ought to be stamped out, it cannot come from "natural" sexual motives. My own view is that these are non-sequiturs -- rape is horrific no matter what its motives are, and we know that rates of rape can be reduced (in Better Angels I assemble statistics that US rates of rape are down by almost 80% since their peak). One surprise that I experienced upon re-reading Susan Brownmiller's 1975 book "Against Our Will," which originated the rape-is-about-power-not-sex doctrine, is that idea was a very tiny part of the book, thrown in almost as an afterthought (Brownmiller said she got the idea from one of her Marxist professors). Most of the book is a brilliant account of the history of rape, its treatment by the legal system, its depiction in literature and film, the experience of being raped and reporting it, and other topics. It's also written with great style, clarity, and erudition. Though I disagree with that one idea, I would recommend it as one of the best and most important books on violence I have read.

Although way OT, some really good alternate perspectives on the crime. Steve Pinker is a cognitive psychologist at Harvard.
 

Tml Matus

Banned
So why didn't the women involved in this block the person harassing her? ... Honestly ... its like someone asking you to follow them into a dark alley while throwing obscenities at you on the street and you follow them.
 
There is still a power hierarchy there. He is a journalist for a fairly well known indie gaming site and she is an indie game developer. She had to make some tough, quick decisions and she had to take into account more than just herself.

Just because someone holds power doesn't mean its being abused. I see no abuse of power here.

Just a very, very sad individual that got what he deserved.
 
I had the same reaction. Telling people how they should respond to a rape seems like a cataclysmic fuck up of an endeavor..

The explanation fails the logic test too. This developer didn't have a proverbial concealed handgun she could produce here, that's kind of the whole problem. I don't like his games but I generally respect his forthrightness, in this case I'm just not able to do that.

David, I understand that you're not trying to excuse bad behaviour but, as other people have already said, how the target of harassment or assault responds is not really relevant outside of the realm of intellectual curiosity. Perhaps it's a worthwhile area of debate were we to include some discussion of their reasons for not reacting the "right" way, but that's not really what your comments are doing.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Not necessarily.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1a67x4/i_am_steve_pinker_a_cognitive_psychologist_at/c8ug2in


http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1a67x4/i_am_steve_pinker_a_cognitive_psychologist_at/c8uhbwo


Although way OT, some really good alternate perspectives on the crime. Steve Pinkerton is a cognitive psychologist at Harvard.

That is a super interesting read. In the age of instant information, we often confuse that with instant understanding. I'm really curious as to how many things we "knew for sure" in modern times will look completely idiotic in 30 years.
 
You're a troll, sir.

That or so conditioned regarding 'no no' words and phrases that some 1st year SWMS teach taught you as an undergrad that you refuse to allow context to exist in this dojo.

Let me make a l'll quiz for you so your can best understand what I said on twitter. Here's a question:

Imagine you are- God forbid- being raped. You have two choices:

a- remove a gun hidden in your waistband and shoot the freak raper dead.

b- engage the rapist in conversation about the latest batch of comics you purchased in hopes the rapist is a fellow comic fan and thus will humanize you and stop raping (yes, this is STUPID on purpose).

Now, which is the better way to react to the rape, a situation that EVERYONE agrees is horrific, not your fault, and should not be happening in the first place?

TLDR: I can say the woman could have handled the situation better while still saying NOTHING about this was her fault.

This is one of the most pathetic posts I've seen on this forum.

The lengths you have gone to find fault with female victims would almost be shocking, but alas blaming women is an age old concept. But as if to be even more asinine you suggest you aren't victim blaming, you're simply noting the victim could have handled things better, as if we're discussing some trivial matter in which after-the-fact reflection could offer better advice on how not to get raped.

Just to directly address your scenario, there are plenty of people who do believe that attempting to humanize with an attacker could be effective - showing a murderer pictures of your children, for instance, or (yes) attempting to engage a potential rapist in conversation. So even on that front you sound quite ignorant.

And you guys wonder why Spike and others cater to the lowest denominator of gamer culture, or why sports shows parade scantily clad women around. Look around.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
So why didn't the women involved in this block the person harassing her? ... Honestly ... its like someone asking you to follow them into a dark alley while throwing obscenities at you on the street and you follow them.

yeah this is really her fault, isn't it?

/tips fedora
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
'Handling the situation better', is not always possible.

First, you are uncomfortable. Second you might perceive that a refusal or rejection might be met with repercussions or some form of negative consequences.

Most companies make their employees go through sexual harassment training for a reason. Seems Mr. David needs a lesson or two.

The explanation fails the logic test too. This developer didn't have a proverbial concealed handgun she could produce here, that's kind of the whole problem. I don't like his games but I generally respect his forthrightness, in this case I'm just not able to do that.

David, I understand that you're not trying to excuse bad behaviour but, as other people have already said, how the target of harassment or assault responds is not really relevant outside of the realm of intellectual curiosity. Perhaps it's a worthwhile area of debate were we to include some discussion of their reasons for not reacting the "right" way, but that's not really what your comments are doing.

Even if you have the proverbial handgun it doesn't mean that is the answer. Why should someone be forced to kill someone? or perhaps you are afraid that if you escalate the situation things will actually get worse for you.

'Handling it better' is BS and is blaming the victim 101.
 

Nephtis

Member
Dude can say whatever he wants while riding on the coattails of God of War and Twisted Metal. Bomba after bomba, publishers will still bank roll him. He's immune to the consequences of his verbal diarrhea on twitter. Is my post a bit offensive? I don't know, but I shall continue until Jaffe signals me to stop. His recent analogy suggested he is open to it.

The situation in this topic and you expressing your opinion is a bit different.
 
This is one of the most pathetic posts I've seen on this forum.

The lengths you have gone to find fault with female victims would almost be shocking, but alas blaming women is an age old concept. But as if to be even more asinine you suggest you aren't victim blaming, you're simply noting the victim could have handled things better, as if we're discussing some trivial matter in which after-the-fact reflection could offer better advice on how not to get raped.

Just to directly address your scenario, there are plenty of people who do believe that attempting to humanize with an attacker could be effective - showing a murderer pictures of your children, for instance, or (yes) attempting to engage a potential rapist in conversation. So even on that front you sound quite ignorant.
Indeed, I've read reports from woman who got their attackers to stop by talking to them, telling them they're scared or that he's hurting them for instance. It's a complicated issue, and i think, i believe, one that men find hard to understand. Which is totally understandable.
 
Wow, those conversation messages are so cringe-worthy and pathetic. Props to her for being professional and just ignoring the lewd crap and being all business.

Guy's cute, though. Still, what a dumbass.
 
This is one of the most pathetic posts I've seen on this forum.

The lengths you have gone to find fault with female victims would almost be shocking, but alas blaming women is an age old concept. But as if to be even more asinine you suggest you aren't victim blaming, you're simply noting the victim could have handled things better, as if we're discussing some trivial matter in which after-the-fact reflection could offer better advice on how not to get raped.

Just to directly address your scenario, there are plenty of people who do believe that attempting to humanize with an attacker could be effective - showing a murderer pictures of your children, for instance, or (yes) attempting to engage a potential rapist in conversation. So even on that front you sound quite ignorant.

And you guys wonder why Spike and others cater to the lowest denominator of gamer culture, or why sports shows parade scantily clad women around. Look around.

Pay close attention to his two choices, because you're missing his point, which includes the fact you're coming into the conversation with a preconceived context.
 

besada

Banned
Well,I think that having a discussion about it is healthy without the need to patronizing people. There's nothing wrong with talking about, and encouraging people to say "no". I also don't think it's wrong for people who have never been in that situation to talk about it - there's a lot more harm in ignoring the topic and leaving it exclusively to people who have had to go through the terrible experience. Again, I'm just talking about having a discussion about it - as long as it's just that, and as long as something of value is learned in the process.

Well, it's possible you and/or Jaffe may learn something in the process, but the people you're telling to say, "No?" They already know they can say it. They also know that there are consequences to saying it too early or too often. Consequences Jaffe doesn't understand and will never have to deal with.

That's what I find most offensive about this tack of discussion, the idea that women don't know how to handle sexual harassment or assault, without having a man (who, again, likely has no idea how he'd really react) explain to them the right way to handle it.
 

Axass

Member
I agree he has been spouting creepy nonsense; though I don't see why he's somehow treated like a vicious and sinister molestor, frankly to me he appears like a very dumb and pathetic guy, incapable of relationing himself to females.

I mean, his poorly articulated argument on the clitoris was hilarious in a sad way, not scary. He's ridiculous and grotesque, not menacing. Doesn't seem a sexual predator to me, I'd agree if he had this kind of attitude repeatedly with the same interlocutor or if he threatened her or again if he was in a position to mess with her job (I've yet to understand if they work together or near to each other, but frankly it didn't seem so from the screencap), but like this... I just pity him.

I don't blame her for the reaction, seeing as anyone would be shocked to see someone make such a fool of himself in such an awkward way, especially if it's someone you know: you probably just wouldn't know quite what to do and simply ignore him, for fear of worsening the situation; but I didn't perceive any evil or misguided intention coming from his words. Again I think he was just being extremely stupid and desperate, I don't think he meant to harass her. I've known people who said stupider things.

I really don't know if this should've been made public. Known to their circle of friends, to their co-workers, etc. yes, but shaming him this way in front of the entirity of the internet? Dunno.
 
This is about rape now?

Regardless, there are rape resistance programs. Those aren't blaming the victim when they provide people with advice and techniques to resist or escape their attacker.

But considering what I'm reading here any such advice, or maybe any such advice coming from a man is victim blaming. By these rules there can be no honest and frank discussion on these matters without men being seen as judging from on high.

This is a story that went from personal to public, and once its in the public sphere people were going to talk about it, and analyze it and share their opinions and their advice. Everybody agrees the guy went way over the line, and many think she should have told him to stop or are surprised that she didn't. I honestly don't see how this is even controversial, or victim blaming, or leading to crazy rape analogies, but here we are internet.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I agree he has been spouting creepy nonsense; though I don't see why he's somehow treated like a vicious and sinister molestor, frankly to me he appears like a very dumb and pathetic guy, incapable of relationing himself to females.

I mean, his poorly articulated argument on the clitoris was hilarious in a sad way, not scary. He's ridiculous and grotesque, not menacing. Doesn't seem a sexual predator to me, I'd agree if he had this kind of attitude repeatedly with the same interlocutor or if he threatened her or again if he was in a position to mess with her job (I've yet to understand if they work together or near to each other, but frankly it didn't seem so from the screencap), but like this... I just pity him.

I don't blame her for the reaction, seeing as anyone would be shocked to see someone make such a fool of himself in such an awkward way, especially if it's someone you know: you probably just wouldn't know quite what to do and simply ignore him, for fear of worsening the situation; but I didn't perceive any evil or misguided intention coming from his words. Again I think he was just being extremely stupid and desperate, I don't think he meant to harass her. I've known people who said stupider things.

I really don't know if this should've been made public. Known to their circle of friends, to their co-workers, etc. yes, but shaming him this way in fron of the entirity of the internet? Dunno.

They had a professional relationship = sexual harassment
OK, perhaps one thing I can agree with it is that public shaming is not productive. How would this be handled better? If there were some kind of responsive HR department that would discretely refer him to and require him to attend therapy without outing the victims then perhaps that would be better. Doubt that is really an option... which is why sexual harassment typically occurs in situations where you can probably get away with it.
 
Well, it's possible you and/or Jaffe may learn something in the process, but the people you're telling to say, "No?" They already know they can say it. They also know that there are consequences to saying it too early or too often. Consequences Jaffe doesn't understand and will never have to deal with.

That's what I find most offensive about this tack of discussion, the idea that women don't know how to handle sexual harassment or assault, without having a man (who, again, likely has no idea how he'd really react) explain to them the right way to handle it.
more interesting, we seem to want to discuss defense vs prevention, as if rape were an eventuality in the universe.
 

Velkyn

Member
I'm not victim blaming at all, but if I were female, I would have immediately told him he was being super inappropriate after the first "I would kiss you on the vagina". I understand it's very uncomfortable and awkward to do so at times, but in doing so, this douchecanoe might think twice before being so skeevy next time.
 

besada

Banned
This is about rape now?

Responses to David Jaffe's assertions of what to do in case of rape are about rape, yes.

Regarding rape prevention classes, yes, they do exist. And they're run by people who know the difference between teaching women self-defense and blaming them for not fighting after an incident.
 
Well, it's possible you and/or Jaffe may learn something in the process, but the people you're telling to say, "No?" They already know they can say it. They also know that there are consequences to saying it too early or too often. Consequences Jaffe doesn't understand and will never have to deal with.

That's what I find most offensive about this tack of discussion, the idea that women don't know how to handle sexual harassment or assault, without having a man (who, again, likely has no idea how he'd really react) explain to them the right way to handle it.

I was under the impression he was talking about this specific situation, in hindsight, I didn't get the impression he was extending the advice to all women, just commenting on something he and others noticed.

This is about rape now?

Regardless, there are rape resistance programs. Those aren't blaming the victim when they provide people with advice and techniques to resist or escape their attacker.

But considering what I'm reading here any such advice, or maybe any such advice coming from a man is victim blaming. By these rules there can be no honest and frank discussion on these matters without men being seen as judging from on high.

This is a story that went from personal to public, and once its in the public sphere people were going to talk about it, and analyze it and share their opinions and their advice. Everybody agrees the guy went way over the line, and many think she should have told him to stop or are surprised that she didn't. I honestly don't see how this is even controversial, or victim blaming, or leading to crazy rape analogies, but here we are internet.
Thank you blue man, some of that resonated with me to quite a degree, discussion is nullified far too easily in topics like these..they're delicate but we're adults, if people are going over the line, let the mods deal with it.
 

Axass

Member
They had a professional relationship = sexual harassment

Are you sure, I can't comprehend what kind of professional relationship they had, is he her boss or a co-worker? Serious question, can't really comprehend it from that snippet and I don't have time to read the entire thread.
 
Ouch. Yeah, I can see where the polite-ness not being construed as flirting ends up being an issue.

I guess I'm sufficiently old-school enough in that I don't assume someone is interested in anything more than friendship unless they explicitly say they are interested in more. But...don't most people do that? I mean, it feels like that makes the most sense in ways to approach random people?

Body language and face are good tellers about flirt. Flirty words come after flirt connection has been eshtabilished. Also being friends is way better than trying to get something going right-away. If it evolves to something more it evolves to something more.
 

Interfectum

Member
Are you sure, I can't comprehend what kind of professional relationship they had, is he her boss or a co-worker? Serious question, can't really comprehend it from that snippet and I don't have time to read the entire thread.

Read the title of the thread?
 
Jaffe is the perfect example why people don't just say "stop." If no one engaged Jaffe on twitter he would have just said his piece and then gone back to whatever it is he does during the day. But when faced with rejection from his peers he flips out and goes off the deep end

Imagine Jaffe but with a history of creepy sexual behavior, serious personal issues, and a substance abuse problem. Now you have this Josh fellow. But no, Josh would have never over reacted to rejection. Of course not
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
I'm not victim blaming at all, but if I were female, I would have immediately told him he was being super inappropriate after the first "I would kiss you on the vagina". I understand it's very uncomfortable and awkward to do so at times, but in doing so, this douchecanoe might think twice before being so skeevy next time.

Just as likely he could easily stop covering your games. Maybe its not even malicious and to spite you.. maybe he just is too embarrassed to interview you now and boy that would have helped greenlight your project on steam...
 
I'm not victim blaming at all, but if I were female, I would have immediately told him he was being super inappropriate after the first "I would kiss you on the vagina". I understand it's very uncomfortable and awkward to do so at times, but in doing so, this douchecanoe might think twice before being so skeevy next time.
I dunno man, a year ago a woman said that his random text which consisted of 'so you're the kind of girl who puts her number on facebook' was creepy, but here we are wondering about his abillity to lick vaginas.
 

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
This is getting pretty intense, does anyone know what Josh Mattingly has to say about David Jaffe and the debacle this is?
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I'm not victim blaming at all, but if I were female, I would have immediately told him he was being super inappropriate after the first "I would kiss you on the vagina". I understand it's very uncomfortable and awkward to do so at times, but in doing so, this douchecanoe might think twice before being so skeevy next time.

I think it would be an interesting alternative universe to explore what he would have done if she had said that, but alas we will never now. That said, you should not be forced into having to shut down unwanted sexual advances from a colleague. Is this the first time he approached her? doubtful. She is also not being responsive either. She is clearly uncomfortable. That should be enough to BACK OFF.

This was not a bar. He was inquiring about professional matters.
 
Jaffe is the perfect example why people don't just say "stop." If no one engaged Jaffe on twitter he would have just said his piece and then gone back to whatever it is he does during the day. But when faced with rejection from his peers he flips out and goes off the deep end

Imagine Jaffe but with a history of creepy sexual behavior, serious personal issues, and a substance abuse problem. Now you have this Josh fellow. But no, Josh would have never over reacted to rejection. Of course not

I just got a chill that has nothing to do with the weather.
 
This is about rape now?

Regardless, there are rape resistance programs. Those aren't blaming the victim when they provide people with advice and techniques to resist or escape their attacker.

But considering what I'm reading here any such advice, or maybe any such advice coming from a man is victim blaming. By these rules there can be no honest and frank discussion on these matters without men being seen as judging from on high.

This is a story that went from personal to public, and once its in the public sphere people were going to talk about it, and analyze it and share their opinions and their advice. Everybody agrees the guy went way over the line, and many think she should have told him to stop or are surprised that she didn't. I honestly don't see how this is even controversial, or victim blaming, or leading to crazy rape analogies, but here we are internet.

It's nice to offer advice when a person needs it. This woman isn't an imbecile though. She knows what the word "No" is. All women do. For her own reasons, she probably didn't feel it was either safe, or proper, or over the line to cut him off and simply tried to ignore the guy. It's fine if you're shocked by this course of action but if you dwell on it, it no longer becomes about the fact that this guy was out of line from the get go.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
It's nice to offer advice when a person needs it. This woman isn't an imbecile though. She knows what the word "No" is. All women do. For her own reasons, she probably didn't feel it was either safe, or proper, or over the line to cut him off and simply tried to ignore the guy. It's fine if you're shocked by this course of action but if you dwell on it, it no longer becomes about the fact that this guy was out of line from the get go.

E-fucking-xactly.
 
Just as likely he could easily stop covering your games. Maybe its not even malicious and to spite you.. maybe he just is too embarrassed to interview you now and boy that would have helped greenlight your project on steam...

Indiestatik is so not bigtime, not yet (probably not ever is this blows up further) but its a shame that thought would even have to be considered as a woman working in the gaming industry.
 

Axass

Member
Read the title of the thread?

I did. It's just that I wasn't able to put one and one together, because I thought IndieStatik was a game company... frankly I never heard about the site before.

Now I have a clearer picture of the situation.

EDIT: Oh, and by that I mean that it definitely shouldn't have happened. I guess it can be considered harassment, as what she answered may have put her in a bad position for coverage etc.

Still not sure about the public shaming.
 

Nephtis

Member
Well, it's possible you and/or Jaffe may learn something in the process, but the people you're telling to say, "No?" They already know they can say it. They also know that there are consequences to saying it too early or too often. Consequences Jaffe doesn't understand and will never have to deal with.

That's what I find most offensive about this tack of discussion, the idea that women don't know how to handle sexual harassment or assault, without having a man (who, again, likely has no idea how he'd really react) explain to them the right way to handle it.

I don't think it has anything to do with a man explaining the right way to handle it. Jaffe's only crime seems to be (in this context) his gender. If a woman would've said that (and there's some that have! though not in this particular discussion that I see) would you also be as offended? It's a pretty universal thing to say though, to stand up for yourself and to fight back and not let people shit on you.

The thing that I want to illustrate here though is that we're all talking about an incident that happened, and we're not talking to the victim directly. We don't even know if the victim reads this forum. And this is a place for discussion, and talking about your opinions, even if they are wrong. Also, I don't think anyone's trying to teach her anything per se.

Look, I know it looks like I'm defending Jaffe but I'm really not. However, I don't think it's fair to shit on him without at least trying to see where he's coming from.
 
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