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[lynux3]

Lol even more dev quotes The damage control is real

Sounds exactly the same as when devs were saying eSRAM would almost close the gap, like Brad Wardell. Lol

At least he's getting paid. Comparing this to Xbox One is quite the reach. How far will you go to dismiss legitimate excitement about developers having access to SSDs on both PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X?

 

[Ar¢tos]

Lol even more dev quotes The damage control is real

We haven't seen any multiplatform game to even begin to comprehend the differences. All we have are paper numbers.
Do you really think there will be a massive visual difference between a game outputting 8.3m pixels vs 7m pixels? (rounding 4k and 4k-15%), specially when techniques like CB or temporal reconstruction are getting better and better?
I seriously doubt 3rd party devs are going to bother, publishers won't waste money and time to get all they can from 15% more power. They'll just ramp up res a bit or any other easy thing, if they don't just settle for parity because it's even cheaper.

 

[Zzpaff]

I just realized that sony can add whatever teraflops they want in a pro version, but Series xx might not be able to go that far with the ssd solution .... no ?

Sony, I'm coming home

 

[Deleted member 775630]

So should listen to a warrior like you in full PR mode for Xbox, or world class devs that have access to the machines?

Yeah, that is hilarious

I wish I had the ability to act as ignorant as you are right now.

Exactly, I have a lot more faith in your word Xbox fighter...

Have you no pride in what you say man, its embarrassing.

You are referring to a link that stright up says "PS4 is the better hardware". Yeah, wonderful damage control.
Both are devs opinions that you don't grasp, as I don't, not having studied years this shit.
If you did then I take it back, no issue.

At least he's getting paid. Comparing this to Xbox One is quite the reach. How far will you go to dismiss legitimate excitement about developers having access to SSDs on both PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X?

We haven't seen any multiplatform game to even begin to comprehend the differences. All we have are paper numbers.
Do you really think there will be a massive visual difference between a game outputting 8.3m pixels vs 7m pixels? (rounding 4k and 4k-15%), specially when techniques like CB or temporal reconstruction are getting better and better?
I seriously doubt 3rd party devs are going to bother, publishers won't waste money and time to get all they can from 15% more power. They'll just ramp up res a bit or any other easy thing, if they don't just settle for parity because it's even cheaper.

Lol, thanks for making my point exactly. Keep up the good fight

 

[Deeper Underground]

Lol, thanks for making my point exactly. Keep up the good fight

lol This isn’t how it works at all, but reported for trolling.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Lol, thanks for making my point exactly. Keep up the good fight

I will. It's a pleasure to have actual ideas instead of aproximate "points" that you see proven despite being unable to counter except "muh damage control".

 

[Aceofspades]

Lol even more dev quotes The damage control is real

Sounds exactly the same as when devs were saying eSRAM would almost close the gap, like Brad Wardell. Lol

Unlike Xbox One last gen which was worse specs wise across the board. PS5 is nowhere near that deficit. In fact It has way better SSD, Beast I/O , and fully customized 3D audio unit (we still don't know how XsX stacks against Audio especially)

All that versus a small deficit in the GPU 15% vs 40% deficit for Xbox last gen.

So now when we have a dev praising SSD capabilities of PS5 he is automatically on damage control mode? No, he is praising that because it's simply better . And all those devs comments where talking about the overall package of the unit which is designed masterfully by Sony.

 

[nosseman]

Lower power footprint, cooler console. This while still providing devs options for where they want more beef for their particular project.

So - when developer X uses all the power and the console overheats or sounds like a jet engine - should you blame Sony or developer X?

 

[KAL2006]

One question I ask if Sony's narrow and fast way is so great then why have all the upcoming PC cards have so many CUs and are going wide?

Surely if narrow and fast was so great PC cards would go that route. Will the new Navi 2 PC cards have less CU and be clocked high?

 

[IkarugaDE]

Lol, thanks for making my point exactly. Keep up the good fight

Having a longer diG doesn't automatically mean that you can make a woman happy.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

So - when developer X uses all the power and the console overheats or sounds like a jet engine - should you blame Sony or developer X?

Probably both. Not making life easy for devs is wrong, but devs gotta know where to stop. RDR2 absurd input lag and causing consoles overworking is something that shouldn't happen just to keep graphics up.

 

[Deeper Underground]

So - when developer X uses all the power and the console overheats or sounds like a jet engine - should you blame Sony or developer X?

You are talking about developers who took years to fully tap into the power of the PS4 and Xbone. Unless their game is just a bloated, unoptimized mess, no developer is going to be hitting full power out of the gate.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I will. It's a pleasure to have actual ideas instead of approximate "points" that you see proven despite being unable to counter except "muh damage control".

Those points have already been discussed a lot. Do we have to keep going in circles?

Audio => This is how XSX does it, and they also have a chip for it. Is it better or worse, we'll find out. But are we suddenly all audiophiles, or was the presentation so lacklustre that we are grasping for the smallest things that might be better? That's like me saying, oh but look at the low latency thing at XSX.

SSD => It's fast, and can be used as RAM. The SSD of XSX can also be used as RAM, they already said this. Oh right, and now people can put way more stuff on their screen which makes the worlds more lively. The issue here is that you won't put 5.5GB of assets on your screen each second. Why? Because otherwise your games would be 1TB of size... Theoretically, the PS5 can put 3GB of more assets every second in a scene, practically that's just not realistic when your SSD size is 825TB-1TB. How big is your game going to be if you really need that speed every second?

So now when we have a dev praising SSD capabilities of PS5 he is automatically on damage control mode? No, he is praising that because it's simply better . And all those devs comments where talking about the overall package of the unit which is designed masterfully by Sony.

Most devs commenting were from Playstation development studios... You must see through that, right?

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

The amount of Xbox fanboys spreading FUD and doing drive by shit posting is worse than ever on here, it's like MS has hired legions to spread the myth that there is a large gap between the two machines, and the idea that a single number (tflops) directly = performance.

So - when developer X uses all the power and the console overheats or sounds like a jet engine - should you blame Sony or developer X?

The Series X CPU is running fixed at 3.8Ghz (compared to variable 3.5Ghz on PS5) inside the APU. The GPU is running fixed also. That is a big concern for heat and power draw on Xbox.

See two can pkay that game

 

[lynux3]

Lol, thanks for making my point exactly. Keep up the good fight

What fight? You already got knocked out.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Now that we now the specs, can ps5 produce 2x 1080p images at 90 or 120fps , god of war ps4 graphics quality for PSVR2? (in theory, at least)

 

[lynux3]

Now that we now the specs, can ps5 produce 2x 1080p images at 90 or 120fps , god of war ps4 graphics quality for PSVR2? (in theory, at least)

I think PSVR2 image quality will be directly tied to the quality of the screen. I think we can, at the very least, expect PSVR2 games to look like high quality PS4 Pro games.

 

[IkarugaDE]

The amount of Xbox fanboys spreading FUD and doing drive by shit posting is worse than ever on here, it's like MS has hired legions to spread the myth that there is a large gap between the two machines, and the idea that a single number (tflops) directly = performance.

The colleagues from MS and Sony are reasonable people and you can have a good discussion with most fans on both sides. Unfortunately, forums like GAF attract bullshit flies like shit.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Those points have already been discussed a lot. Do we have to keep going in circles?
Audio => This is how XSX does it. Is it better or worse, we'll find out. But are we suddenly all audiophiles, or was the presentation so lacklustre that we are grasping for the smallest things that might be better? That's like me saying, oh but look at the low latency thing at XSX.
SSD => It's fast, and can be used as RAM. The SSD of XSX can also be used as RAM, they already said this. Oh right, and now people can put way more stuff on their screen which makes the worlds more lively. The issue here is that you won't put 5.5GB of assets on your screen each second. Why? Because otherwise your games would be 1TB of size... Theoretically, the PS5 can put 3GB of more assets every second in a scene, practically that's just not realistic when your SSD size is 825TB-1TB. How big is your game going to be if you really need that speed every second?

So now we’ve gone from damage control to trying to explain something you clearly know nothing about? You won’t put 5.5Gb/s of assets on screen? I’m actually curious, do you actually know what you are talking about? Nothing you you just posted makes a lick of sense.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Those points have already been discussed a lot. Do we have to keep going in circles?
Audio => This is how XSX does it. Is it better or worse, we'll find out. But are we suddenly all audiophiles, or was the presentation so lacklustre that we are grasping for the smallest things that might be better? That's like me saying, oh but look at the low latency thing at XSX.
SSD => It's fast, and can be used as RAM. The SSD of XSX can also be used as RAM, they already said this. Oh right, and now people can put way more stuff on their screen which makes the worlds more lively. The issue here is that you won't put 5.5GB of assets on your screen each second. Why? Because otherwise your games would be 1TB of size... Theoretically, the PS5 can put 3GB of more assets every second in a scene, practically that's just not realistic when your SSD size is 825TB-1TB. How big is your game going to be if you really need that speed every second?


Most devs commenting were from Playstation development studios... You must see through that, right?

To me it's a much simpler concept than this.
PS5 beign inferior is not the problem. If you end up with a barely noticeable resolution difference and framerate stability in practice, devs has nothing to damage control. This could turn to smoke in few months, so wait for games.

 

[sinnergy]

Exactly, but reason, science and maths have long left this place

It left with Cerny’s GDC talk!

 

[Deleted member 775630]

So now we’ve gone from damage control to trying to explain something you clearly know nothing about? You won’t put 5.5Gb/s of assets on screen? I’m actually curious, do you actually know what you are talking about? Nothing you you just posted makes a lick of sense.

Yeah I do know what I'm talking about. The whole thing about the SSD is level design, right? That's what everyone keeps saying. You can create way more beautiful and rich worlds thanks to these SSD's. So what was wrong exactly? Eager to learn, so feel free to teach me.

 

[Shio]

One question I ask if Sony's narrow and fast way is so great then why have all the upcoming PC cards have so many CUs and are going wide?

Surely if narrow and fast was so great PC cards would go that route. Will the new Navi 2 PC cards have less CU and be clocked high?

PC cards are designed to work with existing hardware already out there so they have some restrictions to work with and so their designs are dictated to some degree to fit that whereas new consoles have the luxury of more exploration as they have the option to alter the motherboard, controllers, ram, fan etc, anything they want really.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Yeah I do know what I'm talking about. The whole thing about the SSD is level design, right? That's what everyone keeps saying. You can create way more beautiful and rich worlds thanks to these SSD's. So what was wrong exactly?

Let’s start with your assumption that the 5.5Gb/s automatically translates to that amount of data being pushed through the I/O throughput at a constant and I would Iove for you to explain how you got the 3GB average please.

 

[Shmunter]

So - when developer X uses all the power and the console overheats or sounds like a jet engine - should you blame Sony or developer X?

Nobody, that won’t happen. Console can cool max clock.

Maybe you’re an Xbox guy so I’ll relate it to that...

Currently XsX is 12tf and cpu is 3.8gig. And that’s the end of it, there is nothing more left in the tank.

Now picture a dev is building something super gfx heavy but doesn’t need much cpu In his vision, but would benefit from 13tf. Imagine the console can give him the 13tf but needs to reduce the cpu to 3.6gig because there is only so much in the tank to go around. Bingo, he gets the extra gfx horsepower and loses nothing in the cpu because he didn’t need as much anyway.

 

[Yoboman]

One question I ask if Sony's narrow and fast way is so great then why have all the upcoming PC cards have so many CUs and are going wide?

Surely if narrow and fast was so great PC cards would go that route. Will the new Navi 2 PC cards have less CU and be clocked high?

Isn't this approach only going to work if all components of the system are designed to support it?

 

[Aceofspades]

It left with Cerny’s GDC talk!

Its apparent to me now that MS supporters are so used to FUD and PR talk that when Cerny laid out entire PS5 architecture and plan with full disclosure of numbers and targets it looked to them as absence of reason and lack of math knowledge Lol

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Let’s start with your assumption that the 5.5Gb/s automatically translates to that amount of data being pushed through the I/O throughput at a constant and I would Iove for you to explain how you got the 3GB average please.

I make that assumption because that's the only "leverage" the SSD actually has. If it never really has to push that much data accept in the beginning when loading the game, then what's the point in having it so fast? Except for loading times. I believe these SSD's will indeed give you the possibility to create more rich and beautiful worlds, but there won't be a difference between the XSX and PS5 worlds, because 2.4GB/s is already more than fast enough. Reason why I think it's fast enough is because you can't put THAT much information on your screen otherwise the games would be too big. You can't have that many assets that you will actually see a difference between the XSX and PS5.

The 3GB is because SSD of XSX is at 2.4, and PS5 at 5.5 => 5.5-2.4 = 3.1, rounded it down to 3.

 

[Lort]

So you're saying it's not possible to have workloads that that target only a subset of available CUs? You're saying that faster clocks increasing the speed of the L1/L2 cache won't make things faster? This seems to fly in the face of what Cerny said.

The cache is linked to the cu so yes the cache is faster due to the clock being faster but that’s why we compare TFLOPs as relative performance not cus so it takes that into account. It’s likely that the Xbox actually has more cache since it has more CUs .. meaning fewer cache misses which may make a much bigger difference for performance.

It’s a pretty simple equation if the specs were reversed every sony fan would be saying they were undeniably the power king.

 

[B_Boss]

On the hardware side not even upset it puts them in a pretty shit position for the entire generation though. They will be playing catch up and their is no sauce created that can span that gulf. XSeX is definitely more powerful. Also clearing up a bunch of bullshit Ive read PSV does constantly run in boost mode but I don't think that is a good thing. (Own Opinion) Cant imagine sustaining that high a clock speed is going to be quiet after hours of playing anything. Never cared who won will still be getting both systems for exclusives but XSeX should be the multiplat king.

You sound/read like a different person now .

 

[megreotsugua]

And all those devs comments where talking about the overall package of the unit which is designed masterfully by Sony.

I agree. PS5 is a masterful design.

Cerny can always double the teraflops in the PRO version. But the baseline of SSD speed, I/O, and 3D audio is already there.

 

[draliko]

PC cards are designed to work with existing hardware already out there so they have some restrictions to work with and so their designs are dictated to some degree to fit that whereas new consoles have the luxury of more exploration as they have the option to alter the motherboard, controllers, ram, fan etc, anything they want really.

This has nothing to do with cu numbers and frequency... Existing prerequisites are needed for drivers and socket connection (pcie), how you size the gpu it's an engineering choice. And yes generally slower and wider is better (less heat and more parallel calculation). Every solution has pro and cons, small and fast is hot power hungry and has not good parallel perfermance but it's fast if you work with less parallelism and is faster in operation connected to clock, slower and wider means less heat, greater parallelism (if you know how to use it) and more brute force,cons are difficulty to use it if you're not good with parallelism.
Regarding price they gonna be costly die, both have problems, wafer yeld will be a pain for Sony (difficult to have chip that can tackle 2.23ghz) and ms (56cu are a lot), especially in the beginning I think yelds are gonna be not so great

 

[xool]

My ReRAM dream did not happen.

Thank for bringing that up. Those were the dreaming days. Maybe next gen. I hope too.

 

[Shmunter]

Sorry, what the what, what?

Is this you exposing your true agenda that I've suspected for a while after losing your credibility?

Sony will be 'playing catch up the entire gen' ?! Hyperbole much. Catch up in what when the difference (on paper only) is 16% and less than half the gap between PS4 - XB1?? And you have no idea how they actually perform and are reading tflops like an Xbox fanboy so we cant make assumptions yet.

And your negatives about the boost clocks are also baseless assumptions. I would refrain from doing that after leading us down the garden path for months.

Yep, not good. Very strange. Oh well.

 

[IkarugaDE]

You sound/read like a different person now .

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

You sound/read like a different person now .

Yep, I forgot to highlight his line 'pretty shit position for the entire gen' reads like an Xbox fanboy. Maybe this is his agenda or worse

EDIT: I'll dial it back and let him defend himself

 

[Deeper Underground]

I make that assumption because that's the only "leverage" the SSD actually has. If it never really has to push that much data accept in the beginning when loading the game, then what's the point in having it so fast? Except for loading times. I believe these SSD's will indeed give you the possibility to create more rich and beautiful worlds, but there won't be a difference between the XSX and PS5 worlds, because 2.4GB/s is already more than fast enough. Reason why I think it's fast enough is because you can't put THAT much information on your screen otherwise the games would be too big. You can't have that many assets that you will actually see a difference between the XSX and PS5.

The 3GB is because SSD of XSX is at 2.4, and PS5 at 5.5 => 5.5-2.4 = 3.1, rounded it down to 3.

1. Or maybe the SSD is that fast because it will allow the user to be able to access any part of the environment for example on the fly without having that data preloaded in the pool as Cerny explained in the deep dive. Eliminating frustum culling and having the entire map rendered as the snap of a finger is the name of the game. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the game itself will be bloated up to 1TB of data. The GPU is only going to process the data it needs in the “seeks” of the SSD, but have the speed to do this almost instantaneously.

2. Remember you are comparing the throughput of both systems using raw data. Since both of them will 95% of the time be using compressed data, you are looking at 9Gb/s - 4.8Gb/s = 4.2. That’s quite the gap.

 

[ghairat]

In reality, PS3 was much more powerful than the 360 and the cell processor is still to this day very powerful but very hard to develop for. But at the end of the day, games managed to run better on 360 than on ps3. Why? well, the architecture on the 360 was much better than the ps3. We will see when the time comes with SeX and PS5.

 

[Fdkenzo]

//

 

[Lort]

In reality, PS3 was much more powerful than the 360 and the cell processor is still to this day very powerful but very hard to develop for. But at the end of the day, games managed to run better on 360 than on ps3. Why? well, the architecture on the 360 was much better than the ps3. We will see when the time comes with SeX and PS5.

I haven’t looked back but that just sounds like you are the kind of person said there’s no way github was real.

The ps3 has the worlds slowest cpu and then some cell power and then some gpu. It had a higher tf than 360.

The xsx has more cpu AND more Gpu ... it’s game over. The xbox has a higher Tf than the ps5.

 

[Lort]

1. Or maybe the SSD is that fast because it will allow the user to be able to access any part of the environment for example on the fly without having that data preloaded in the pool as Cerny explained in the deep dive. Eliminating frustum culling and having the entire map rendered as the snap of a finger is the name of the game. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the game itself will be bloated up to 1TB of data. The GPU is only going to process the data it needs in the “seeks” of the SSD, but have the speed to do this almost instantaneously.

2. Remember you are comparing the throughput of both systems using raw data. Since both of them will 95% of the time be using compressed data, you are looking at 9Gb/s - 4.8Gb/s = 4.2. That’s quite the gap.

Neither has given latency times but MS claimed latency similar to RAM .. it’s quite likely given current information that Microsoft’s virtual ram and low level access is lower latency than ps5 making it better for real time streaming.

 

[ghairat]

I haven’t looked back but that just sounds like you are the kind of person said there’s no way github was real.

The ps3 has the worlds slowest cpu and then some cell power and then some gpu. It had a higher tf than 360.

The xsx has more cpu AND more Gpu ... it’s game over. The xbox has a higher Tf than the ps5.

Lol, where did you get "github" from my comment. I didn't even really care about it. As I said before, time will tell. Games, games, games and games.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Lol, where did you get "github" from my comment. I didn't even really care about it. As I said before, time will tell. Games, games, games and games.

Mind what you say here, people are making wild assumptions on other people like crazy.

 

[Darius87]

does anyone knows about decompression chip when cerny talked saying it's equal to 9 zen 2 cores but that's just decompression hw inside ps5 apu not like full fledge 9 core zen 2 cpu that would not make sense because it would fit in apu and it would be bigger then main ps5 cpu.

 

[PocoJoe]

I make that assumption because that's the only "leverage" the SSD actually has. If it never really has to push that much data accept in the beginning when loading the game, then what's the point in having it so fast? Except for loading times. I believe these SSD's will indeed give you the possibility to create more rich and beautiful worlds, but there won't be a difference between the XSX and PS5 worlds, because 2.4GB/s is already more than fast enough. Reason why I think it's fast enough is because you can't put THAT much information on your screen otherwise the games would be too big. You can't have that many assets that you will actually see a difference between the XSX and PS5.

The 3GB is because SSD of XSX is at 2.4, and PS5 at 5.5 => 5.5-2.4 = 3.1, rounded it down to 3.

you are either trolling or have no fucking clue about what you are talking about

Too fast SSD = too big games?? what? If we think just the assets, both with 100% same set, 2x or more faster SSD still would beat the slower one and can lead to noticeable loading differences. if one loads them on the fly in 0.5s and another one in 1s, then the slow one cant do things the fast can. Or if it takes 10s to load a game vs 20s, you would notice that

You clearly dont understand enough and you try to talk about things and fail, or you are trolling.

Having fast transfer rate isnt the ONLY LEVERAGE PS5 SSD have, if you watched the presentation you would know that they optimized the whole "path" to make sure that data transfer doesnt have bottle necks. Transfer isnt just about pure speed. Just like Graphics arent just about pure Tflops

 

[xool]

does anyone knows about decompression chip when cerny talked saying it's equal to 9 zen 2 cores but that's just decompression hw inside ps5 apu not like full fledge 9 core zen 2 cpu that would not make sense because it would fit in apu and it would be bigger then main ps5 cpu.

It's just BS, like the 25TF claim from the xbox reveals. They're making worse case comparisons, and stretching everything. Promise.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Everyone knows someone that knows someone, That's how all of this works. I trust DF when it comes to games analysis but that is as far as that trust goes, I know who butters their bread. I am as confident as I was when I said the new Ghosts of Tsushima stuff looked awesome (only for it to be shown a few days later) as I am about the PS5 having better Ray tracing and being a bit more powerful. I also maintain my confidence about XSEX having a very good and diverse GAMES library this time around. It wont just be hey look Forza, Halo, Gears and more Forza. (Ultra Combo) Just as confident as I was that the actual XSEX box was in fact finished. (only for that to be shown a bit later as well). I'm even more confident that all of the this system is better than yours and industry bias towards certain companies is going to play out very differently this time around, as unfortunately things are going to get very Sony FFVII = Nintendo and SE relationship around here very soon.

Last thing, it was insinuated earlier that MS could basically just dump money into R and D and throw money at the problem including taking losses in order to have a better machine. That is NOT how any of this works. The higher ups within MS have been looking at their games division and trying to figure out how to "Trim the fat." for quite some time. This years profits are up (Largely due to their XboxLive) but only by a very small margin. I believe 10% ill look and edit to make sure. But they cant just throw shit at the wall to see what sticks. They NEED this machine to be successful and need to at least win the majority of the US market share.

The pastor never lets the congregation play with the church's money.

You need better sources.

 

[PaintTinJr]

More isn’t needed , 13 Tf will finish the job.

Finish what job? The small triangles mentioned by Cerny is almost certainly about scene complexity having plateued for models that fully fill CUs and is now particle effects geometry of small triangles that are the workload driving the need for more Teraflops. These workloads are harder to bin pack fully into CUs - hence keeping CU count from PS4 Pro and clocking higher. The smaller bin width reduces wasted space in workloads and by increasing frequency count of workloads still lifts the performance massively from 4TF/s.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Ahh. I see. Well, that's neither here, nor there to me. The biggest drawback to Xbox in my opinion this gen has been the lack of first party titles.

They seem to have heavily invested in that area, so I am interested in how it paid off. I just like games...shrug.

Well for this there certainly is potential for something good to happen. I'll wait for MS to have proven themselves before I jump in (if I can, right now the outlook is uncertain).

 

[Darius87]

It's just BS, like the 25TF claim from the xbox reveals. They're making worse case comparisons, and stretching everything. Promise.

it's not bs every cpu has some specific compression/decompression hw inside meaning ps5 has worth of 9 cores of that hw if that makes sense.