-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
- Status
pasterpl
Member
sony will want to “remaster” some games and sell these again
Gears 5 Xbox Series X Digital Foundry Analysis Shows Leap Over XB1X, RTX 2080 Ti Performance
A Gears 5 demo thrown together in only two weeks already shows impressive high-end PC level performance. Check it out for yourself.wccftech.com
I thought Digital Foundry compared XSX performance to standard RTX 2080, but wccftech article mention 2080ti, so I have rewatched entire video and indeed DF shows 2080ti benchmark results saying XSX offered similar performance.
XSX will be faster than I thought.
they also said it achieve it with 50% more particle count
Last edited:
xool
Member
This slipped under my radar - wonder if it's true
www.techpowerup.com
Good to know intel is still serious about GPU, but crazy to think that they are already inquiring about 3nm (and not making in house).
..
btw Can we talk about Xbox Series Y and PS6 now? 'next gen' seems to be done and dusted.
Intel Courts TSMC 6nm and 3nm Nodes for Future Xe GPU Generations
Intel is rumored to be aligning its future-generation Xe GPU development with TSMC's node development cycle, with the company reportedly negotiating with the Taiwanese foundry for 6 nm and 3 nm allocation for its large Xe GPUs. Intel's first Xe discrete GPUs for the market, however, are...
Good to know intel is still serious about GPU, but crazy to think that they are already inquiring about 3nm (and not making in house).
..
btw Can we talk about Xbox Series Y and PS6 now? 'next gen' seems to be done and dusted.
Audiophile
Gold Member
He referenced 9 Zen cores as an equivalent to the decompression hardware and some i/o capabilities.
When referencing the Jaguar CPU in PS4, he was talking about the CU modified to be like an SPU for audio work.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
This is exactly what I said few pages ago. But I still can't accept that devs are really gonna deliver on 30 fps at this level of details. Games are meant to be PLAYED first and WATCHED second, this is not some casual blabbling, it's fucking game design at its core: structure the game as it plays best, then focus on estetic. Yet, we still need to hear about 30 fps because we just can't let go native resolutions like full 4K. Chekerboard, dynamic resolution, graphics scaling, use what you can but get FLUIDITY, this is where interactivity starts. I don't know if some wants games or nice screenshots really.
Last edited:
I still think that modes that support full RT will be capped at 30 fps.
llien
Banned
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I think too, but IF acqually there will be different modes on consoles like on X and Pro. I would like that, but I really hope they don't go only full RT 4K and then 30 fps. With this power is crazy, arcade games used 60 fps as a standard and now I should believe another giant graphic jump is essential to enjoy games?
Last edited:
pasterpl
Member
you have just made up 1tflop ...lol
xool
Member
I do not believe one word those insiders are saying now.
There's no way in hell they were targetting a 11+TF machine with only 36CUs .. 2.23 GHz is faster than any gpu ever before by a (big) margain (afaik), and way above the curve what what everyone else has being designing for .. it's not realistic to even think that Sony engineers thought 2.5GHz GPU was going to be ok/doable/realistic
Those insiders are fake, or just trying to pull the wool over people's eyes
Last edited:
pasterpl
Member
.png?width=1200&height=630&fit=crop&enable=upscale&auto=webp)
Video Game Deals
Your trusted source for video game news, reviews and guides, since 1999.
www.eurogamer.net
i am guessing that the price announcements are coming soon
Fatal Enigma
Member
Fake
Member
Last edited:
Right ...
xacto
Member
It's ok, you like numbers, nothing wrong with that. Now move along, please.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
Look, I will tell you one more...
Wait, do you agree with me?
Like... what? Are you not fighting? This is incredible. Thank you.
Actually we have a clue about RT performance which is linked with CU COUNT.
xool
Member
Or shift those units before they announce Lockhart ??
Apollo Helios
Member
2.4G/s and maybe even 5.5G/s might be a low speed for putting entire OS on the SSDs. Also GDDR6 might be high in latency to do so which is true for both consoles. So I'm not sure why there is 2.5GB reserved on SeX for system, and we don't even know PS5 allocation at all.
As RAMs got faster and faster and high in bandwidth, their latencies spiked too so a DDR3 has less speed and latency than DDR4 and so on, GDDR6 is fastest but might have a latency that is inoperable for something like an OS, but then again this is all speculation at this point. Speed wise putting an OS on RAM modules needs something like at least a DDR3L-1600. Looking at iFixit Pro teardown Pro used 2xSamsung K4B4G0846E 512 MB DDR3 RAM modules, I don't know if it is 1600 or 1866 version of this DDR3L (L stands for low power) but you're free to look.
On the other hand Cerny mentioned like 12 channels for SSD, and looking at the picture it has 12 memory NAND modules and 12 channels to connect to them. This makes it very interesting as each can be accessed simultaneously which not only increases bandwidth but also decreases latency. Normally PCIe 4.0 SSDs use 4 lanes for interconnect, for Xbox Series X this seems the same, but for PS5 it seems the lanes are tripled. So at least on the latency end PS5 may have solved it and use the SSD for OS if 5.5GB/s uncompressed is high enough speed for it.
Xbox Series X has 4 lanes can be counted visibly
On the other hand PS5 has 12 lanes to SSD as can be seen
This btw proves that only the speed metrics 2.4GB/s vs 5.5GB/s is not enough to compare the two, there are other thins behind those numbers that make their interoperability very very different. For 4 lanes vs 12 lanes at least I can say that PS5 should have considerably lower latency to access SSD vs Series X's classic approach of 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0.
If I knew the exact latency numbers we could even argue if the GPU on the PS5 die could use these NAND modules for slower speed and latency RAM modules or not. But even then 5.5GB/s seems low and might need decompression adding to latency/cycles. On Series X it seems night impossible as both the speed (2.4GB/S) and latency (only 4 lanes) seems not enough.
Those are custom ASICs (Application-specific integrated circuit) specifically designed to handle compression/decompression algorithms and hence use much less die space than being 9 core zen 2. That 9 core zen 2 figure is given just to understand their power, these chips real size are much smaller. CPUs are generalized processors, tase chips do only one job and thus designed, engineered and produced for only for it.
I mean if what you say/write doesn't make sense even for you (and let's be real it didn't) then you could do a little research on the topic yourself and share the result with us.
Fake
Member
Shmunter
Member
I’m really interested in this topic, can you link some useful material?
Rudius
Member
The problem with PS4 is that that the noise levels vary drastically from game to game. Playing GT Sport on my Pro I barely hear it, but in Dreams the noise level is unbearable without headphones. Perhaps this new approach will make noise levels constant, so that they may chose a convenient cooling system.
Google is your friend.
SportsFan581
Member
Apollo Helios
, does your graphic not indicate that the SSD connects to the APU (main custom chip) via 4 lanes? The number of channels to your controller (the most important component here) are not necessarily connected to your PCIe width. 7GB drives will hit the high-end market soon, all will use the standard 4 lanes of PCIe 4.
Shmunter
Member
Thank you for your time have a good time
It'd be great if you could point out exactly, where AMD has said that raytracing performance is linear to CU count only and not to clocks aswell, because the setup there patent for raytracing uses suggests that it is highly likely linear to the CU count and clocks, not just CU count. This is because AMD's raytracing units are situated inside the TMUs and share caches in a measure to reduce die space. It would surprised me if the raytracing units did not run in some sort of multiple of the core clock to match the clock of the cache they are accessing.
Shmunter
Member
Could be something to do with the priority lanes, and why Cerny was alluding to needing 7gig drive to have the overhead to match the PS5 custom 5.5gig??
TTOOLL
Member
Well, if Sony is struggling MS isn't? XSX will be more expensive for sure.
I think he is accidentally conflating internal parallel interface of the SSD (which uses 12 chips in the PS5) to the external PCIe interface, which both will likely use a PCIe4 4x configuration.
Fake
Member
Microsoft seen not caring about the cost of seX because they gonna sell like a premium device and they don't care how much will sell as well.
That old 'bruh Microsoft have money to cost Xbox division'. IMO both suffer from the same problem, but only one is being charged.
Last edited:
xool
Member
2.4G/s and maybe even 5.5G/s might be a low speed for putting entire OS on the SSDs. Also GDDR6 might be high in latency to do so which is true for both consoles. So I'm not sure why there is 2.5GB reserved on SeX for system, and we don't even know PS5 allocation at all.
As RAMs got faster and faster and high in bandwidth, their latencies spiked too so a DDR3 has less speed and latency than DDR4 and so on, GDDR6 is fastest but might have a latency that is inoperable for something like an OS, but then again this is all speculation at this point. Speed wise putting an OS on RAM modules needs something like at least a DDR3L-1600. Looking at iFixit Pro teardown Pro used 2xSamsung K4B4G0846E 512 MB DDR3 RAM modules, I don't know if it is 1600 or 1866 version of this DDR3L (L stands for low power) but you're free to look.
On the other hand Cerny mentioned like 12 channels for SSD, and looking at the picture it has 12 memory NAND modules and 12 channels to connect to them. This makes it very interesting as each can be accessed simultaneously which not only increases bandwidth but also decreases latency. Normally PCIe 4.0 SSDs use 4 lanes for interconnect, for Xbox Series X this seems the same, but for PS5 it seems the lanes are tripled. So at least on the latency end PS5 may have solved it and use the SSD for OS if 5.5GB/s uncompressed is high enough speed for it.
Xbox Series X has 4 lanes can be counted visibly
On the other hand PS5 has 12 lanes to SSD as can be seen
This btw proves that only the speed metrics 2.4GB/s vs 5.5GB/s is not enough to compare the two, there are other thins behind those numbers that make their interoperability very very different. For 4 lanes vs 12 lanes at least I can say that PS5 should have considerably lower latency to access SSD vs Series X's classic approach of 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0.
If I knew the exact latency numbers we could even argue if the GPU on the PS5 die could use these NAND modules for slower speed and latency RAM modules or not. But even then 5.5GB/s seems low and might need decompression adding to latency/cycles. On Series X it seems night impossible as both the speed (2.4GB/S) and latency (only 4 lanes) seems not enough.
Those are custom ASICs (Application-specific integrated circuit) specifically designed to handle compression/decompression algorithms and hence use much less die space than being 9 core zen 2. That 9 core zen 2 figure is given just to understand their power, these chips real size are much smaller. CPUs are generalized processors, tase chips do only one job and thus designed, engineered and produced for only for it.
I mean if what you say/write doesn't make sense even for you (and let's be real it didn't) then you could do a little research on the topic yourself and share the result with us.
..have to break it you .. you made a mistake - those 12 lanes are between SSD controller and flash chips - the link between CPU and controller and CPU is in the diagram too .. you can count the wires if you want - it's the PCIe 4.0 link. ..
[also those are just diagrams, be cautious taking them literally - neither of the PCIe links has just 4 wires in reality]
The speed difference between PS5 and XbX is just the 2x that's plain in the released figures. there's no extra sauce.
I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
SportsFan581
Member
Agreed. Sony's implementation is special and I'm sure does have 12 lanes connected to the controller. However, 4 lanes of PCIe should still be able to carry that data. Not saying they didn't use 8 or 12 PCIe lanes, but looking at the numbers they've provided they should still fit comfortably into 4 lanes.
B_Boss
Member
I apologize Ika but I honestly don’t understand your response to my own
. I do remember BG’s posting that .gif however lol.
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
I would not bet so much on SeX 499 and PS5 399. In one way or another they all have costly parts, anything below 499 is gold to me no matter the console.
TTOOLL
Member
That's not how companies work, dude.
xool
Member
I think it's 4 lanes of PCIe4.0 and 12 channels from controller to SSD chips - (btw 12 is impressive, current best available is 8)
eg (from www.anandtech.com/show/14728/phison-previews-nextgen-ps5018e18-pcie-40-ssd-controller-up-to-7-gbs-nvme-14 )
(added highlights)
top end (far right) uses 4 channel PCIe , but has 8 channels to the actual NAND chips
Apollo Helios
Member
Reaching/accessing depends on those 12 lanes which decreases latency. This decrease in latency isn't hampered by main memory controller connected to APU with 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0. I didn't made the mistake you allude to btw. MS's memory controller solution and their NAND usage is unknown atm but it is still clear they are not customized to take advantage of the SSD beyond the loading speedups, PS5's usage of SSD will vary was my point. And decreasing latency to SSD (which is possible by using 12 lanes and 12 NAND chips) is going to be more important for other use cases.
Fake
Member
I already answer your question. IMO both will suffer from similar problems.
Nivek OnlyOn
Member
No. Theres 11 zen2 cores of power in PS5 I/O die with sram(4GB?)
GPU is heavily customized with cache scrubbers(proprietary) built in to harness the SSD(supercharged+nitro).
5 bottlenecks eliminated via I/O die.
Sony didnt build this I/O technology to just eliminate load times for games lol.
xool
Member
xool has left the chat. needs to go lie down. for a long time. maybe an entire gen.
SportsFan581
Member
@
Apollo Helios
, weren't you the one that brought up the PCIe lanes? Sony's goal of removing bottlenecks with laser precision is impressive, no one will fault that. I'm sure devs will find a lot of ways to use it. There could still be many more features we don't know about yet, is PS5 as it has been shown directly upgradable, etc.
Apollo Helios
, weren't you the one that brought up the PCIe lanes? Sony's goal of removing bottlenecks with laser precision is impressive, no one will fault that. I'm sure devs will find a lot of ways to use it. There could still be many more features we don't know about yet, is PS5 as it has been shown directly upgradable, etc.
Last edited:
As i said in another thread - NVME is still miles from ram in latency.
NVME - 250 microseconds latency.
GDDR6 - 10 - 20 nanoseconds latency.
1 nanosecond = 0.001 microseconds.
So - 1 microsecond is 1000 nanoseconds. That means the latency on NVME is 250.000 nanoseconds - around 12500 times slower than GDDR6.
Apollo Helios
Member
This is right on the money. Right now at best the memory controllers sold with PCIe 4.0 m2.SDDs have 8 channels interconnect and can saturate those 4 lanes of CPU connect however, the latency is still there as long as the NANDs are controlled by less than 8 channels. Remember access to look up tables for data locations inside the NANDs and through the controllers are governed by the weakest link in the connection. Increasing 8 lanes to 12 should be across the market for these SSD going in the future, and I would not buy an expansion just yet. Even an SSD saturating the PCIe 4.0 lanes right now have 8 NAND channels and Cerny says that this still leaves some arbitration on PS5's 6 priority levels vs m2 standard's 2. So for once the whole industry needs to catch up to the consoles and not the other way around.
joe_zazen
Member
NX is, definitely worth a listen if you were like me and have been feeling like all of SIE has been run by monkeys the last two years. The reaction from top tier journos like Jason and actual devs to the ps5 tells me that Sony marketing incompetence doesnt mean all of PlayStation is incompetent.
It is still entirely possible the rest of SIE has been humming along and as we get closer to launch we’ll see the real world performance of ps5 being better, and possibly cheaper than xbox. Maybe, just maybe PS5 will have a revolutionary, must-play exclusive launch game that is not possible on xbox, given MS’ commitment to PC, streaming, and old consoles. That is, Sony might have an actual must-play BotW coming that will showcase exactly why ps5 is a true generational leap.
I still have major doubts about Sony’s gaming division, and worry that their focus on boring single player 20 hour ’emotional’ journeys will mean whatever game ps5 launches with will just be another GoW/TLOU/Spiderman/GoT/Days Gone, instead of a 200+ hour BotW/GTA. But the ps5 hardware does at least have the potential for that imaginary BotW to exist.
anyway, Sony has 6 months to get me back on board despite the shitty marketing that makes fans feel like a nuisance instead of community.
M-V2
Member
I don't seek drama, but he knows himself lol
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
It really seems like they had a weaker GPU by default and could't change it, so "asked" Cerny to solve the problem. If you look at it with this perspective, he come up with a damn fine solution in theory.
But probably they went with this plan since the start or so.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
You people are freaking out so bad that it's funny now. Yall really think a 17% difference in TFLOP power should equal $150 difference? Are you 12 years old?
- Status