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Silent Hill 2 Remake Patch 1.06 removed PSSR On PS5 Pro to fix previous issues

kevboard

Member
I agree that DLSS is a good thing, and it's extremely easy to use. I just don't agree that it is, in any version or use case, better than native, that's just lunacy. There's always some unresolved detail, some smearing, some minor problem that may be imperceptible on fast movement, but that does show up under proper investigation. It may fix some aliasing better that the original filter, yes, but that doesn't make it "better than native".

all the issues you list there are issues that most TAA implementations also have.
and the reason the issues are so similar is because DLSS, TSR, FSR, PSSR and XeSS are all just TAA that is used to show more detail instead of only smoothing the image with the detail it creates.

there are many games where native + TAA looks objectively worse than DLSS Quality mode for example.
Doom Eternal is such a game, as is Death Stranding. and in most games it is basically on par the moment you hit at least 1440p output using the quality preset.

TAA is just a reconstruction method that outputs the final image at the same resolution as the initial render. the difference however is that DLSS has an ML component to clean up most artifacts (if implemented correctly of course), while TAA just relies on its static algorithm
 
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yogaflame

Member
It is just a few weeks with the life cycle of Ps5 pro, and with PSSR ML with its nature of being a ML AI itwill continue to learn and evolve and get an constant update. Everything will be fine and developers will get use to it and how to properly take advantage of it especially next year. For it's 4 year cycle before ps6, it will be fine.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Stellar blade has no rt. This is an issue with pssr not being able to handle dynamic objects. Just look at the best pssr implementations. Demon souls, ff7 rebirth, tlou1, tlou2, stellar blade. All games without rt.
It isn't dynamic objects per se , but high frequency and intermittent noise in the native lighting.

Massively under-sampled lighting by ray count and by frequency, where the frequency of lighting updates is a fractional amount of the frame-rate, and possibly different fractional levels at different areas of the screen, meaning the GI lighting incoherence is high and intermittent, requiring special ML AI training to handle the fractional updates and average the light changes rather than follow them tightly which produces ghosting when a new sample isn't where the ML AI expect it to be in the next frame.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Eh it's enjoyable enough for me now in performance mode, just got to not look at puddles when outside lol.
Anyway the way I see it, the game is too good to not be double dipped on PC now or in the future.

Performance mode also has some other cut backs like missing lighting and shadows indoors. None of the comparisons have stated that the Pro Performance mode retains the extra effects from the Quality mode.
 

Vick

Member
Found these on Era, Performance mode on Pro after the patch, with motion blur turned off. Was honestly expecting something completely different the way some are describing the game.

54164991402_f8eb86e3fb_o.png

54165869076_b99f03b4fd_o.png

54165872851_79440decbe_o.png

54166611400_b25d09dcc3_o.png


Not starting my playthrough yet though.
 

bundylove

Member
It is just a few weeks with the life cycle of Ps5 pro, and with PSSR ML with its nature of being a ML AI itwill continue to learn and evolve and get an constant update. Everything will be fine and developers will get use to it and how to properly take advantage of it especially next year. For it's 4 year cycle before ps6, it will be fine.
T
I didnt by the pro to use it for protein folding like the ps3 meaning there were no games at the beginning but hey you can support a good cause.

Again, for the weak minded, give me the option to choose pssr on or off if its years away to be stable.

Right now , as you can see it with some games, its permanent and looks way worse than base pst setting.
 

marquimvfs

Member
all the issues you list there are issues that most TAA implementations also have.
and the reason the issues are so similar is because DLSS, TSR, FSR, PSSR and XeSS are all just TAA that is used to show more detail instead of only smoothing the image with the detail it creates.

there are many games where native + TAA looks objectively worse than DLSS Quality mode for example.
Doom Eternal is such a game, as is Death Stranding. and in most games it is basically on par the moment you hit at least 1440p output using the quality preset.

TAA is just a reconstruction method that outputs the final image at the same resolution as the initial render. the difference however is that DLSS has an ML component to clean up most artifacts (if implemented correctly of course), while TAA just relies on its static algorithm
Right. So, what you're saying is not that DLSS is better than native, but better than native + TAA. My point still stands, both ate detrimental to fine motion detail, despite being used to improve resolution. Also, DLSS isn't the same as TAA as both take information at different instances, with DLSS using ML to fill the gaps were it isn't sampling from frames. If TAA implementation in some games is worse than DLSS solution, that doesn't make DLSS as magical as some here like ro paint.

Also I'd like to say, again, that I'm not against the use of DLSS, nor I advocate against it. On the contrary, i think that it is a very clever solution, mainly for folks with very high resolution displays with poor upscaling capabilities. I just point out and that it is objectively impossible for it to produce a quality better than native, given how the technology works. Want a better experience at higher resolution? Get more rendering power, simple as that. Native is always the top quality that a GPU can produce, there's no such thing as better than native.
 

yogaflame

Member
T
I didnt by the pro to use it for protein folding like the ps3 meaning there were no games at the beginning but hey you can support a good cause.

Again, for the weak minded, give me the option to choose pssr on or off if its years away to be stable.

Right now , as you can see it with some games, its permanent and looks way worse than base pst setting.
Well you may be right. It may be the right to have option turn pssr on and off for old games that are from pre-ps5 pro era , but as nature of AI ML it has to be activated for the PSSr learn to grow, adjust, and continue to receive updates from Sony and the developers. But ps5 pro has 4 years to its life cycle before ps6 ,and Sony invested allot to this tech not just to go down in day one. Its version 1.0. Next year for me will be the real test for ps5 pro capability with games will be build on ps5 pro in mind like for example GOY, Wolverine, Death Stranding 2, new game from Naughty dog, and even GTA 6. That is the time we can evaluate,if its a buy or bust.
 

bundylove

Member
Well you may be right. It may be the right to have option turn pssr on and off for old games that are from pre-ps5 pro era , but as nature of AI ML it has to be activated for the PSSr learn to grow, adjust, and continue to receive updates from Sony and the developers. But ps5 pro has 4 years to its life cycle before ps6 ,and Sony invested allot to this tech not just to go down in day one. Its version 1.0. Next year for me will be the real test for ps5 pro capability with games will be build on ps5 pro in mind like for example GOY, Wolverine, Death Stranding 2, new game from Naughty dog, and even GTA 6. That is the time we can evaluate,if its a buy or bust.
Thats like saying the ps4 pro's checker board in the first year can only do 1260p from 1080 and in the year 4 it will reach its full potential. So till then you wont see much of a benefit from the pro.

The pro should not cost double of a base ps5 if the games are worse on it at the beginning ans who knows how long devs need to update the games if its really that resource intensive.

The pro should not cost double if it can only achive a minor improvement as the focus is on training pssr and not to use the gpu for more graphical fidelity such as more rt or higher details etc.

This plastic raptured cock right here should have been a free beta test for the same price as the base ps5 . I mean i dont go to 5 star restaurant and all i get to order is a burger.
It might be the best burger you ever had but its still a fucking burger.
 
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kevboard

Member
Right. So, what you're saying is not that DLSS is better than native, but better than native + TAA.

we live in a world where engines like UE4/5, Northlight and Snowdrop exist. these modern engines are entirely designed around using TAA. try playing a modern UE5 title on PC, and mod it to remove the TAA and just look at the raw output. what you will see is an image that has dithering artifacts everywhere, and where shadows, hair, foliage and other elements on screen are flickering and shimmering like crazy, even while standing completely still.

so, in 90% of modern AAA games, TAA is not an option, it is the bare minimum setting.


My point still stands, both ate detrimental to fine motion detail, despite being used to improve resolution. Also, DLSS isn't the same as TAA as both take information at different instances, with DLSS using ML to fill the gaps were it isn't sampling from frames. If TAA implementation in some games is worse than DLSS solution, that doesn't make DLSS as magical as some here like ro paint.

DLSS doesn't simply fill gaps by using ML. the initial steps to gather additional image information is the same, both for TAA and DLSS.
jittering of the pixel grid, accumulation over several frames, reacting to motion vectors to minimise ghosting and so on and so forth...

the difference is that DLSS is not only jittering the pixel grid, but also alternates which parts of the image it samples.
which is VERY similar to checkerboard rendering... just more extreme depending on the scaling factor you use.

the ML model comes into play when DLSS constructs the final image from the checkerboard-esque sampled frames, where the ML algorithm has learned what looks wrong in an image, and tries to change the color of pixels that it thinks look wrong. so it predicts how a high resolution version of that frame should look like, and then adjusts elements of the actually rendered/accumulated frame. it doesn't fill gaps through the use of ML, it looks which parts of previously sampled frames match its prediction the best.

all of this is of course not perfect but it is what makes it cleaner looking than FSR2, which works basically identically to DLSS, just minus the AI knowing if something looks wrong, which is why everything is always fizzling in motion with FSR2


Also I'd like to say, again, that I'm not against the use of DLSS, nor I advocate against it. On the contrary, i think that it is a very clever solution, mainly for folks with very high resolution displays with poor upscaling capabilities. I just point out and that it is objectively impossible for it to produce a quality better than native, given how the technology works. Want a better experience at higher resolution? Get more rendering power, simple as that. Native is always the top quality that a GPU can produce, there's no such thing as better than native.

well, like I said, native in modern AAA games almost always means Native + TAA, and it absolutely can beat that.
sure, if you look at something like Valorant, a forward rendered, simple looking game that doesn't rely on TAA... that would indeed be impossible to match for DLSS. but in any game with TAA, at least at 4K DLSS Quality mode, you will match or exceed the image quality in 90% of cases. at 1440p it's less but still many, probably most games.
 
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yogaflame

Member
Thats like saying the ps4 pro's checker board in the first year can only do 1260p from 1080 and in the year 4 it will reach its full potential. So till then you wont see much of a benefit from the pro.

The pro should not cost double of a base ps5 if the games are worse on it at the beginning ans who knows how long devs need to update the games if its really that resource intensive.

The pro should not cost double if it can only achive a minor improvement as the focus is on training pssr and not to use the gpu for more graphical fidelity such as more rt or higher details etc.

This plastic raptured cock right here should have been a free beta test for the same price as the base ps5 . I mean i dont go to 5 star restaurant and all i get to order is a burger.
It might be the best burger you ever had but its still a fucking burger.
I agree about the price. But for me the price would have been forgivable if the discdrive was included. From what I read here in the past at neogaf leaks in last few years, Sony made it mandatory to all developers that all games must all run 60fps and 4k in ps5 pro, but Sony change there mind and will be happy if they cannot do it maybe to avoid alienating and making angry the third party developers. They could run more test this year, maybe a beta and launch it next year, but they really want to unleash the PSSR ML early because it the long run it will beneficial for rapid growth and development of pssr ML. And financialy maybe it will also be beneficial for Sony which they need right now after that Concord blunder which I hope they learned from that woke and gaas trash game.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
we live in a world where engines like UE4/5, Northlight and Snowdrop exist. these modern engines are entirely designed around using TAA. try playing a modern UE5 title on PC, and mod it to remove the TAA and just look at the raw output. what you will see is an image that has dithering artifacts everywhere, and where shadows, hair, foliage and other elements on screen are flickering and shimmering like crazy, even while standing completely still.

so, in 90% of modern AAA games, TAA is not an option, it is the bare minimum setting.




DLSS doesn't simply fill gaps by using ML. the initial steps to gather additional image information is the same, both for TAA and DLSS.
jittering of the pixel grid, accumulation over several frames, reacting to motion vectors to minimise ghosting and so on and so forth...

the difference is that DLSS is not only jittering the pixel grid, but also alternates which parts of the image it samples.
which is VERY similar to checkerboard rendering... just more extreme depending on the scaling factor you use.

the ML model comes into play when DLSS constructs the final image from the checkerboard-esque sampled frames, where the ML algorithm has learned what looks wrong in an image, and tries to change the color of pixels that it thinks look wrong. so it predicts how a high resolution version of that frame should look like, and then adjusts elements of the actually rendered/accumulated frame. it doesn't fill gaps through the use of ML, it looks which parts of previously sampled frames match its prediction the best.

all of this is of course not perfect but it is what makes it cleaner looking than FSR2, which works basically identically to DLSS, just minus the AI knowing if something looks wrong, which is why everything is always fizzling in motion with FSR2




well, like I said, native in modern AAA games almost always means Native + TAA, and it absolutely can beat that.
sure, if you look at something like Valorant, a forward rendered, simple looking game that doesn't rely on TAA... that would indeed be impossible to match for DLSS. but in any game with TAA, at least at 4K DLSS Quality mode, you will match or exceed the image quality in 90% of cases. at 1440p it's less but still many, probably most games.
Native plus dlaa is better than dlss.

It’s shocking to me how few developers bother adding dlaa to their games.
 
PSSR is a new beast some developers don't seem to have wrapped their heads around yet. It's a new thing to the market and it's only going to service a small, console elite end of it. This feels like something like the CBE (Cell Broadband Engine) back in 2006. Sony may just need to take the time to show developers how to use PSSR to get the most out of it. Developers aren't stupid. But I'm thinking to myself if I have a game that is currently only for 2 platforms--PS5 and PC--and then a month after I launch my game there's a new PS5 that offers this great technology but it's a very expensive upgrade the overwhelming majority of the PS5 userbase isn't going to be jumping onto it anytime soon and not all of them that do get it will actually have my game--how much time am I going to put into implementing its use into my already finished game?

The only answer I can come up with is "not very much, if any."
 

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
I think by the time the PS6 rolls around PSSR should be universally better than FSR2 like XeSS and DLSS are. We might see Sony integrate their own frame gen and AI Ray reconstruction as well.
i personally thinks the current PSSR issue on games like SH2 and Jedi survivor will be ironed out at a later date (although i think the chances is lower for SH2 since they removed PSSR for now) and PSSR should perform and run better in upcoming new games.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Eh it's enjoyable enough for me now in performance mode, just got to not look at puddles when outside lol.
Anyway the way I see it, the game is too good to not be double dipped on PC now or in the future.

The whole point of the pro is to stop users wanting or needing to double dip on the pc version.

I stand by my previous statements that this consoles launch and it's implementations are a joke for the price they are charging.

What a mess.

Like SlimySnake SlimySnake said. The games that look great are games that ran well on ps5 to begin with. The mission objective of this console was to deliver quality settings at high framerates, not making it look worse.

I've seen so many posts that equate to wait for the tools with this console and it's think it's a shame that more pressure isn't being applied to Sony here. Why is no one questioning them directly?

Someone told me at work that gt7 looks worse than the ps5 version or something along those lines. Like pssr is broken on that game too. (luckily this seems not to be true thanks to DF, so must have been internet trolling)

I hope those that bought one are enjoying it. I guess by playing select games with good patches, but i don't think that is an acceptable experience for you all. It should be a solid experience more or less across the board. Sure, one or two patches could show teething issues at first but it shouldn't be this many.

Sony should come forward and address this, but they won't because they know it will plant a seed of doubt and potentially slow sales. They are masters at keeping their mouths shut and letting their fanbase be in limbo and defend them.
 
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I agree that DLSS is a good thing, and it's extremely easy to use. I just don't agree that it is, in any version or use case, better than native, that's just lunacy. There's always some unresolved detail, some smearing, some minor problem that may be imperceptible on fast movement, but that does show up under proper investigation. It may fix some aliasing better that the original filter, yes, but that doesn't make it "better than native".
DLAA is the real native. Native with TAA is shit. TAA blurs to much. Prefer DLSS quality over native and TAA playing at 4k resolution.
 
I’ve tried it with a current patch and it’s terrible.
I’ve finished the game on base ps5 and it was nothing like this.

Now the quality mode is really bad. There are these shimmering clouds/shadows over vegetation and all reflections are so pixelates and shimmering, it looks like grass form a distance.
And performance mode is even worse and breaks up in motion.
On top of that… and that might be because I am annoyed, the 30fps mode controls more sluggish. Like if they added even more acceleration to the aiming but I am probable wrong here.

Edit. Honestly this games should’ve been fully baked like tlou remake and 2. There is no time of day here. There is a ton of flashlight usage but tlou still have way better looking Flashlight.
Just imagine sh2 running 4k80fps pristine image quality. And bake of higher quality than their piss poor low real time gi. I blame ue5. It’s the ultimate lazy tool

Well, sheeeeiiiit...

Want to buy it since it's on sale Rof but...not in this state.
I mean, i could buy it now and wait for a "proper" patch but by then it may actually receive another price drop/cut ffs.
Ηad 55€ in my PSN wallet just for this and was ready to push on that "buy" button a couple of days ago but apparently, they managed to fuck it up even more with the latest patch.

Well, WH40K : Darktide will serve me well next week, fook this shit...

PS : Might get FF7 Rebirth since i haven't played it yet, is also on sale AND has a good Pro patch.
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Well, sheeeeiiiit...

Want to buy it since it's on sale Rof but...not in this state.
I mean, i could buy it now and wait for a "proper" patch but by then it may actually receive another price drop/cut ffs.
Ηad 55€ in my PSN wallet just for this and was ready to push on that "buy" button a couple of days ago but apparently, they managed to fuck it up even more with the latest patch.

Well, WH40K : Darktide will serve me well next week, fook this shit...

PS : Might get FF7 Rebirth since i haven't played it yet, is also on sale AND has a good Pro patch.
You do have stellar blade ? If not, get it
 
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Bitstream

Member
Found these on Era, Performance mode on Pro after the patch, with motion blur turned off. Was honestly expecting something completely different the way some are describing the game.
54164991402_f8eb86e3fb_o.png

54165869076_b99f03b4fd_o.png

54165872851_79440decbe_o.png

54166611400_b25d09dcc3_o.png
Not starting my playthrough yet though.
Good god, this looks incredible!
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Found these on Era, Performance mode on Pro after the patch, with motion blur turned off. Was honestly expecting something completely different the way some are describing the game.

54164991402_f8eb86e3fb_o.png

54165869076_b99f03b4fd_o.png

54165872851_79440decbe_o.png

54166611400_b25d09dcc3_o.png


Not starting my playthrough yet though.
Performance mode image quality is OK but the problem is the settings they disabled compared to quality mode.
Less GI or lumen etc
 

marquimvfs

Member
DLAA is the real native. Native with TAA is shit. TAA blurs to much. Prefer DLSS quality over native and TAA playing at 4k resolution.
My point the whole time. It doesn't matter if some or most games implements some shit worse than DLSS. There's always better options outside upscaling filters, the "real" native.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Performance mode image quality is OK but the problem is the settings they disabled compared to quality mode.
Less GI or lumen etc
the game is hitting its peak DRS range which was 1152p iirc. with pssr it was locked at 900p. and now with pssr removed, its no longer flickering and shimmering like it was before.

its a gorgeous UE5 game that is a true next gen title. of course it looks great.
 
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