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[MrOogieBoogie]

OP, you will look back at this post in a few years when gaming production values blow the Uncharted games out of the water, and you will wonder what the hell you were thinking when you wrote this.

I will be thinking, "Uncharted 2 was the game that set the standard for all these other amazing experiences to follow suite."

 

[Salacious Crumb]

Just thought that the 90% of pcs are weaker than the PS3 argument is probably true. Just keep in mind that most of the pcs are somewhere at our moms/grandmother house, and are very low tech.Also think of all the netbooks and laptops. Now if he had said weaker than 90% of all gaming pcs it would have been obliviously a different deal.

and the somewhat obligatory "why don't you love my crysis?" and "WTF, MW2 best pc game?!?!" felt very pc elitist to me

Edit:

La noire is probably the only game that could recreate this facial expression ^^

The actual quote was "Now nobody has a PC faster than a PS3" which deserves some mockery. Giving MW2 best PC game just says to me that no one at GT actually plays anything on the PC unless they're forced to review it.

Oh and 10% of a few hundred million is still a decent number.

EDIT Ugh I just watched the rest of that video, $5000 PCs, really GT?

 

[Red]

it would help if you actually played them.

The first game doesn't hold up as well as UC2. I think people forget how much was improved.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I don't understand some people who hate cutscenes in games..... do they really think hating games cutscenes is cool? is that why they hate it?

remember guys.... it's VIDEO games, and they can make some great scenes that blow the biggest Hollywood movies away.

You do realise that the use of the word video is predominately to differentiate the medium from games played in the physical world?

 

[Lion Heart]

That's akin to asking what aspects of Film X make it stand out as a film as opposed to a novel, short story, or even radio play. It proposes a certain metric of assessment that holds some value but then reductively makes the assumption that any other aspect of the medium is inherently worthless and professes a supreme authority on the way in which one ought to judge a medium.

Even if one were to carry out this practice one can see in film in the competing concepts of editing and mise en scene that what one man might consider perfection, another might consider trite and boring. The obvious film example is that of Classical Hollywood Continuity Editing which can then be compared to the jump cuts used in French New Wave films or the 360 degree editing and strong visual matches of Yasujiru Ozu. Likewise in video games, while there are aspects of gameplay that we generally find satisfying (when I push buttons i want a response, a responsive response even) in general what is good gameplay is so varied amongst audiences as to repudiate any attempt to authoritatively quantify what is 'best' in gameplay.

So in summary, the concept that there is an aspect of games that is separate from film and that this should be examined closely is largely a reasonable attitude. The conclusion that since it is the thing that makes a game a game, 'gameplay' is therefore the only worthy characteristic of a game is flawed. Finally the notion that a truly objective or definitive identification of what is good gameplay (although not specifically raised in the quoted post, it does seem to be an issue in the community at large, at least when applied to more experimental games) is desirable or even possible comes to be soundly rejected.


As far as Uncharted 2 I truly enjoyed the game and the game world. In particular the scene in the mountain village where Drake slowly walks through is quite effective. In a Call of Duty title there is never a true moment of peace, only action interspersed by tension or suspense (the guns are always out and the next fight is always just over the hill or around the corner) leading to a sense of overall fatigue with the game's experience. In Uncharted 2, the scene in the mountain village, from the forced gait of drake, to the lack of weapons, emphasize the importance of soaking in the surroundings of the picturesque village. Furthermore that scene prepares the audience for the later fight through the village, now transfigured by war and death. It is precisely these moments, moments in which Uncharted incorporates that sort of variation, that leads me to call it a superb game. Does it do anything revolutionary in terms of the shooting of bad dudes? No. The question though is what is there that can be done in that arena? The controls and shooting were tight enough to satisfy on their own and the distribution and variation (there's that word again) of fighting, climbing, and puzzling although puzzling to a much lesser degree make for a balance that allows players to appreciate and enjoy each section as they move into the next without that Call of Duty weariness that I mentioned earlier creeping in.

This post is terrific, well done.

 

[dark_inferno]

After playing through so many games i have to say... Uncharted 2 was perfect... Uncharted 1 was just... kind of forgettable (nazi zombies...)

 

[Patapwn]

What are you talking about? Uncharted has loads of cannon fodder grunts.

And seriously, what are you talking about? You keep using buzzwords like "depth" and "interactivity" but I still don't understand what you mean. How are you interacting with the falling building (an awesome level, but a level nonetheless)? How are you interacting with the train? You're navigating it and shooting dudes/a helicopter. They are things that are in your way between point A and point B. The only depth that adds to Uncharted if you think about it as a story is "man, Nathan is a pretty chill motherfucker considering how many people he wastes with firearms every day".

Err... I didn't say that uncharted doesn't have cannon fodder FYI

And how could you not understand what I said? Buzzwords be damned, in a game you go through levels and shit happens. The shit that happens, especially in uncharted, IS the story. And in regards to my OP of this conversation, interactivity means, umm... controlling the character (drake) as a building falls, as spikes from the ceiling drop down on you, as you navigate your way up a train dangling on the side of a cliff. These are not cut scenes, you get to play them/have control of the character/are able to jump/run/shoot, etc. I don't know if your definition of interactivity is different but if it is, I don't give a shit. That has nothing to do with what I was responding too.

As for what these events add in terms of story/characterization, simply take portal 2 as a parallel to uncharted 2. In many cases, you're with another character (Glados/Wheatley), the same situation with Uncharted (Chloe, Elena). Shit happens, Glados/Elena or Wheatley/Chloe, say something, do something, react in some way shedding so light into who they are, how they act. Etc. Just look at the instance where Glados get's turned into a potato and you get to carry her, it, on your portal gun as she, it, insults you, directs you, boils with anger at Wheatley. It sheds some light into the character/entity that is Glados. Same with uncharted with the constant dialogue, constant action, constant character interaction (I'm sorry if that is too much of a buzzword for you) same as portal 2 and many other games for that matter. There's more than just shooting cannon fodder...

Have I made myself clear?

 

[test_account]

Uncharted is great at cutscenes and cinematic, tightly-scripted gameplay.

Which is why I would say it's de-evolutionary

I think i know what you mean, but the OP talks about how the cutscenes are done is revolutionary since not many other games does it this great, not that Uncharted is the first game to include cutscenes. So it wouldnt be de-evolutionary.

How is it de-evolutionary by the way? In what other way could cutscenes be done instead and still have the same effect?

 

[ThisWreckage]

It's not revolutionary, but Naughty Dog deserves a ton of credit for making a shooter that doesn't feature varying shades of gray and brown. Thank god it isn't a first person shooter either.

The Uncharted games need to be significantly less linear for them to truly blossom. Uncharted 3 is going to be more of the same, just expect even bigger set pieces and likely more "holy shit" moments. The linearity, I feel, will remain.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Uncharted seems to owe most of its successes and strengths to the process of iteration, in my opinion. Even the mo-cap was simply an extension of what games were already doing/starting to do- it just did it really well.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

How is it de-evolutionary by the way? In what other way could cutscenes be done instead and still have the same effect?

By having the player actually do what you're showing the protagonist doing instead of leaving them sitting there with their arms folded.

 

[Uno Venova]

By having the player actually do what you're showing the protagonist doing instead of leaving them sitting there with their arms folded.

If the players are just talking in the cutscenes what else could the player do but fold their hands.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Uncharted 2 took an existing concept and made it great. That doesn't mean it's revolutionary. It's just really, really good at what it does.

I don't understand how this is such a difficult concept to understand.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Err... I didn't say that uncharted doesn't have cannon fodder FYI

And how could you not understand what I said? Buzzwords be damned, in a game you go through levels and shit happens. The shit that happens, especially in uncharted, IS the story. And in regards to my OP of this conversation, interactivity means, umm... controlling the character (drake) as a building falls, as spikes from the ceiling drop down on you, as you navigate your way up a train dangling on the side of a cliff. These are not cut scenes, you get to play them/have control of the character/are able to jump/run/shoot, etc. I don't know if your definition of interactivity is different but if it is, I don't give a shit. That has nothing to do with what I was responding too.

As for what these events add in terms of story/characterization, simply take portal 2 as a parallel to uncharted 2. In many cases, you're with another character (Glados/Wheatley), the same situation with Uncharted (Chloe, Elena). Shit happens, Glados/Elena or Wheatley/Chloe, say something, do something, react in some way shedding so light into who they are, how they act. Etc. Just look at the instance where Glados get's turned into a potato and you get to carry her, it, on your portal gun as she, it, insults you, directs you, boils with anger at Wheatley. It sheds some light into the character/entity that is Glados. Same with uncharted with the constant dialogue, constant action, constant character interaction (I'm sorry if that is too much of a buzzword for you) same as portal 2 and many other games for that matter. There's more than just shooting cannon fodder...

Have I made myself clear?

I'm still waiting for the part where you explain why any of this makes Uncharted unique at all. Wow, other characters are with you all the time and react to things that happen around them? No other games do that, no siree!

You're describing things that Uncharted and Portal 2 do well. They aren't revolutionary or really even evolutionary; other games do them, and Uncharted benefits from also having some clever jokes and good acting. It doesn't help that the character "depth" that Uncharted reveals is, hey look, we're pulp adventure movie tropes.

 

[Patapwn]

Uncharted 2 being good has everything to do with its presentation because the game is nothing but presentation.

Fun, but not much substance and not much revolutionary.

What are you talking about? Not much substance? I'm not sure I understand... Because I see such statements being thrown around for many number of games yet it remains inadequately explained.

How does Uncharted lack substance? It's an action game with plenty of different situations, things to climb, enemies to take down, methods for playing such as light stealth to straight up run and gun. On top of that it has a fantastic multiplayer (or at least the second one does and hopefully the 3rd!).

Is the only way for a game these days to have substance rocket powered vanquish boots? (although they ARE pretty awesome )

 

[jim-jam bongs]

If the players are just talking in the cutscenes what else could the player do but fold their hands.

Control the dialogue?

]Is the only way for a game these days to have substance rocket powered vanquish boots? (although they ARE pretty awesome )

I... that is... uh. Ah fuck it.

 

[test_account]

By having the player actually do what you're showing the protagonist doing instead of leaving them sitting there with their arms folded.

Does this always work just as well though? Personally i dont think it would give me the same experience. I.e if there is some dialogue between 2-3 people in a room, i'd rather have it set in a nice "movie like" way with different angles etc. instead of just running around randomly in the room waiting for the conversation to end before moving on to the next area of the game.

Control the dialogue?

How does that work when it is a fixed dialogue?

 

[Uno Venova]

Control the dialogue?

Uncharted isn't supposed to be like an RPG, that's where you usually see options to control dialogue.

 

[Varna]

And how could you not understand what I said? Buzzwords be damned, in a game you go through levels and shit happens. The shit that happens, especially in uncharted, IS the story. And in regards to my OP of this conversation, interactivity means, umm... controlling the character (drake) as a building falls, as spikes from the ceiling drop down on you, as you navigate your way up a train dangling on the side of a cliff. These are not cut scenes, you get to play them/have control of the character/are able to jump/run/shoot, etc. I don't know if your definition of interactivity is different but if it is, I don't give a shit. That has nothing to do with what I was responding too.

Um... so scripted gameplay? I don't really understand the point of having such an elaborate scenario when you are pretty much required to do it in a certain way. Either way this isn't something new. It's ancient for gaming.

I've always been a big fan of gameplay being considered part of the story. Some game genres like JRPGs really don't understand this, but for everything else you can already do this. So how is uncharted any better for the way it does it?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Does this always work just as well though? Personally i dont think it would give me the same experience. I.e if there is some dialogue between 2-3 people in a room, i'd rather have it set in a nice "movie like" way with different angles etc. instead of just running around randomly in the room waiting for the conversation to end before moving on to the next area of the game.

That's not the only option at all. If you must focus on the characters, make the dialogue interactive. If you're creating an action sequence make sure that you think of a way for the character to perform that action in the game, or pick a different action.

How does that work when it is a fixed dialogue?

There is no such thing unless you design the game like that. You don't have to make a branching set of dialogue trees like in an RPG but at least give me "hey, you mentioned this thing, tell me more" options so that I feel like I'm inquiring about the game and story and then being given feedback.

 

[bhlaab]

I think i know what you mean, but the OP talks about how the cutscenes are done is revolutionary since not many other games does it this great, not that Uncharted is the first game to include cutscenes. So it wouldnt be de-evolutionary.

How is it de-evolutionary by the way? In what other way could cutscenes be done instead and still have the same effect?

Well the real revolution would be to do away with cutscenes altogether innit?

 

[Clear]

Honestly, the people who need to be looking closest at what ND are doing is Square Enix.

The plain truth is that if the cut-scenes in FFXIII were as entertaining and personable as those found in the Uncharted games, it's faults would have been (more) easily forgiven.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Was it in the first game? The only bosses I remember in MGS are Psycho Mantis, some fat guy on rollerskates, the guy at the end of MGS2 with the eyepatch, and the Metal Gears themselves. Pretty much all of them from MGS3 though.

Here it is, in all it's glory.

 

[test_account]

That's not the only option at all. If you must focus on the characters, make the dialogue interactive. If you're creating an action sequence make sure that you think of a way for the character to perform that action in the game, or pick a different action.

How do you make the dialogue interactive when it is a fixed dialogue?

Well the real revolution would be to do away with cutscenes altogether innit?

I think that has been done before I'm sure there are games out there who dont have a single cutscene, but still has a story.

 

[Patapwn]

I'm still waiting for the part where you explain why any of this makes Uncharted unique at all. Wow, other characters are with you all the time and react to things that happen around them? No other games do that, no siree!

You're describing things that Uncharted and Portal 2 do well. They aren't revolutionary or really even evolutionary; other games do them, and Uncharted benefits from also having some clever jokes and good acting. It doesn't help that the character "depth" that Uncharted reveals is, hey look, we're pulp adventure movie tropes.

It doesn't and I never said it did. As a matter of fact if re-read my response to you, I specifically said pretty much every game has these elements.

You're assuming I agree with the OP of the thread which I do not in any way shape or form nor have I ever claimed to.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

How do you make the dialogue interactive when it is a fixed dialogue?

I replied above to this:

There is no such thing unless you design the game like that. You don't have to make a branching set of dialogue trees like in an RPG but at least give me "hey, you mentioned this thing, tell me more" options so that I feel like I'm inquiring about the game and story and then being given feedback.

There is always more information. Always.

 

[bhlaab]

What are you talking about? Not much substance? I'm not sure I understand... Because I see such statements being thrown around for many number of games yet it remains inadequately explained.

How does Uncharted lack substance? It's an action game with plenty of different situations, things to climb, enemies to take down, methods for playing such as light stealth to straight up run and gun. On top of that it has a fantastic multiplayer (or at least the second one does and hopefully the 3rd!).

Is the only way for a game these days to have substance rocket powered vanquish boots? (although they ARE pretty awesome )

You go forward, scripted events happen annnnd you keep going forward I guess. That's what I mean. Fundamentally it's not too far removed from Super Mario Bros, although with all of the scripted events I'd argue that it has a smidge less player agency.

 

[test_account]

There is no such thing unless you design the game like that. You don't have to make a branching set of dialogue trees like in an RPG but at least give me "hey, you mentioned this thing, tell me more" options so that I feel like I'm inquiring about the game and story and then being given feedback.

That could work indeed, but do you think that this adds much more to the experience compared to a cutscene? You're basically sitting with your arms in cross when this dialogue is going on as well, only difference is that you press a few more buttons

I replied above to this:

Yeah, i saw it after i posted my previous post =)

 

[Rewrite]

I have to say, I love reading every Uncharted thread here at GAF. I love the series, but it's nice to read different opinions from people and read why they don't enjoy the series. It's always awesome to read both sides of the arguments.

 

[Red]

Here it is, in all it's glory.

Amazing.

 

[Varna]

That could work indeed, but do you think that this adds much more to the experience compared to a cutscene? You're basically sitting with your arms in cross when this dialogue is going on as well, only difference is that you press a few more buttons

You would be surprised. It really can make all the difference.

 

[bhlaab]

I think that has been done before I'm sure there are games out there who dont have a single cutscene, but still has a story.

Half Life 2 doesn't count because those are still cutscenes. I'm talking games where the player creates a story instead of being told one. Some games do it, not a lot. Plenty of games say they do that but are liars. It's really the best way for the medium to progress forward IMO

 

[Uno Venova]

You go forward, scripted events happen annnnd you keep going forward I guess. That's what I mean. Fundamentally it's not too far removed from Super Mario Bros, although with all of the scripted events I'd argue that it has a smidge less player agency.

lol, this thread is a good read.

 

[Kid Ying]

I like Uncharted, but I completely disagree with you—game has pretty forgettable writing and performances, when compared to, say, a Tim Schafer game, something from Valve, or Deadly Premonition.

I agree. Uncharted is a damn good game, but in terms of narrative, characters and story it's pretttttttyyyyy safe. There's nothing there that is better than any adventure movie from te 80's that we grew up watching.

 

[StuBurns]

Half Life 2 doesn't count because those are still cutscenes. I'm talking games where the player creates a story instead of being told one. Some games do it, not a lot. Plenty of games say they do that but are liars. It's really the best way for the medium to progress forward IMO

Well that depends on what you consider a cutscene. HL2 does have 'cuts'.

 

[legend166]

I thought the Uncharted games were great, but let's not act as if they are any higher than direct to DVD sequels of The Mummy franchise when it comes to plot and acting.

 

[[Nintex]]

One game I found incredibly convincing in this regard was the first Mafia, I even cared about most of the characters. It might've been the story and dialogue because the graphics are quite primitive today but that's one of the few games I'd give the label 'immersive'.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I will be thinking, "Uncharted 2 was the game that set the standard for all these other amazing experiences to follow suite."

And you would be flat-out wrong for thinking that. Period. End of discussion. I know it has been stated a million times, and I really don't want to seem like I'm picking on you. But jesus christ man, get some perspective!

"This is the first series where I feel like I care who's doing the voice-work and the motion capture performances."
"I become engrossed with it not unlike a movie or TV scene."
"I associate Nolan North, Emily Rose, Claudia Black, and Richard McGonagle with their respective characters in a way I haven't encountered in other games."

Those are things that people have been saying and feeling about games since the mid-nineties. I in no way mean to debate the quality of Uncharted2's cutscenes because they're great and obviously had a lot of time and money spent on them. But thats about it! Don't mistake it's arguably unrivaled production values for anything else but exactly what they are.

Hey man, I said to my friend one time upon installing Unreal Tournament '99 "It's really hard to imagine how graphics can much better than this, you know?"

 

[Patapwn]

You go forward, scripted events happen annnnd you keep going forward I guess. That's what I mean. Fundamentally it's not too far removed from Super Mario Bros, although with all of the scripted events I'd argue that it has a smidge less player agency.

By this definition alone almost every game in existents lacks substance. Bayonetta, Vanquish, Wipeout, hell even Metroid (you just get to go back through the hallways though ).

You can't possibly believe all those games have little substance can you?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

That could work indeed, but do you think that this adds much more to the experience compared to a cutscene? You're basically sitting with your arms in cross when this dialogue is going on as well, only difference is that you press a few more buttons

That's a pretty huge difference though, don't you think? The key aspect of the medium of gaming which separates it from other mediums is interactivity, so to me even the most basic input/feedback implementation (well, unless it's just "Press A to hear the next line" over and over) is more appropriate to me than a cut-scene.

 

[cgcg]

Even its gameplay is revolutionary. No other game has Uncharted's traversal combat. It's even more evident in the U3 MP beta. There is no game like it. Good god it's fun. ND better not lower player's health for the retail release.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

By this definition alone almost every game in existents lacks substance. Bayonetta, Vanquish, Wipeout, hell even Metroid (you just get to go back through the hallways though ).

You can't possibly believe all those games have little substance can you?

I can't speak for him but I would say that the point he's getting at is that substantive game mechanics are different from narrative substance, given the context of this discussion.

 

[test_account]

You would be surprised. It really can make all the difference.

I am very familiar with it from 90's adventure games (Monkey Island, Sam & Max, Day of the Tentacle etc. etc.) and personally i do love these games. And i think that it can be quite fun to check out all the different dialogue alternatives to see what is being said. But i dont know if this is something that would make my experience in Uncharted better. Since i love mystery stuff like the Uncharted stories has, i think that i'd rather have the "movie setting" cutscenes instead with the great lighting and different camera angles etc.. This would be lost with static "choose your dialogue" stuff instead. But that is just how i see it

Half Life 2 doesn't count because those are still cutscenes. I'm talking games where the player creates a story instead of being told one. Some games do it, not a lot. Plenty of games say they do that but are liars. It's really the best way for the medium to progress forward IMO

Yeah, i wasnt thinking about any games in specific. Do you have any examples of the games that already does this?

 

[bhlaab]

Well that depends on what you consider a cutscene. HL2 does have 'cuts'.

I say if I'm stuck in a room and I'm not allowed to go forward until the NPCs shut up, and I'm not allowed to do anything but watch them not shutting up, it's a cutscene.

lol, this thread is a good read.

I don't know if you're disagreeing with me, but if you are would you deny that Uncharted 2 is a game that exerts its control over you instead of you exerting control over it? The game decides where you're going to go and why and what is going to happen when you get there. I wouldn't call that a revolution in interactive entertainment.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah, i wasnt thinking about any games in specific. Do you have any examples of the games that already does this?

The introduction of chapter 2 of The Witcher 2 is one of the most incredible pieces of gaming ever created for exactly this reason.

 

[Jsunu]

I don't think Uncharted 2 is revolutionary... and I am glad for it. It took really solid gaming mechanics and movie-like cinematic flair and made an extremely polished/fun/exciting game. It didn't set out to push the boundaries of the genre nor was it the first to blend gameplay with highly detailed set-pieces or cutscenes, but it set out to do them extremely well.

 

[Patapwn]

I can't speak for him but I would say that the point he's getting at is that substantive game mechanics are different from narrative substance, given the context of this discussion.

I understand that but what's so lacking with Uncharted's game mechanics? Are we going back to the Vanquish powered rocket boots again?

 

[test_account]

That's a pretty huge difference though, don't you think? The key aspect of the medium of gaming which separates it from other mediums is interactivity, so to me even the most basic input/feedback implementation (well, unless it's just "Press A to hear the next line" over and over) is more appropriate to me than a cut-scene.

I assume that you mean how it works in the old 90's adventure games where you get into a static position and can choose between many different lines to say? I like this stuff, but personally i dont think that this would give me the same experience/feeling as the more cinematic cutscenes in Uncharted. So personally i'd would have to go with cutscenes in this case It is not like Uncharted is filled to the edge with cutscenes either, it is still a lot of gameplay in there.

The introduction of chapter 2 of The Witcher 2 is one of the most incredible pieces of gaming ever created for exactly this reason.

Ok, i see. I havnt seen much from The Witcher 2, but isnt that game built around "Mass Effect type" dialogue stuff?

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I understand that but what's so lacking with Uncharted's game mechanics? Are we going back to the Vanquish powered rocket boots again?

Quite a bit, depending on who you ask. I had a ton of problems with it. None of which were "my" fault. The game is so linear that if you make one weird move you're completely fucked. I remember right after the encounter with the first yeti person, It ran to the left. So naturally I went left. And climbed for a little bit, jumped a few platforms, etc... Then I reached a dead-end. Only it wasn't really dead-end it was a sort of ledge that it looked like you could jump to. So I spent about 15 minutes trying to make that jump. Nope! Turned out way back before that I was actually supposed to go right. Frustrating stuff like that happens all the time in Uncharted. Thats why I'm so turned off by it, the illusion kept breaking. I can think of a zillion examples just as frustrating as that, but I'll spare you them.

On a purely mechanical level, its competent. But not incredible.

 

[Card Boy]

I must be the only one who enjoyed Uncharted 1 over Uncharted 2. Sure Uncharted 2 had better graphics, but i hated the whole Globle-trotter theme with it. With Uncharted 1 it was just Drake and the Island, it felt more personal.

Also the Villians sucked in Uncharted 2, all you had was Flynn and Lazarevic. In U1 you had Navaro, Eddy Raja and Roman, i felt all these where better than Uncharted 2's villians. Also going back to Uncharted 1 the Island felt like the forth "enemy" going back to my point about it feeling about more personal.

Sorry for going alittle offtopic.