Hillary is not a leftist, if I was american I would vote Jill Stein.
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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale
- Thread starter PlayALLtheGames
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Hillary is not a leftist, if I was american I would vote Jill Stein.
You're talking about a country that glorifies rebellious attitude like it's a good thing.
The right is all about the Confederacy.
the left is all about wallstreet or whatever.
The result is pretty much the same, the minorities are getting fucked over and no one really cares.
You aren't kidding. In our last local off-year local election, turnout was somewhere under 20%. With even a small bit of organizing, it isn't very difficult to move the margins a few percentage points. And then it isn't difficult to use this as leverage against officials once they're in office later on.
"We made you, and we can take you out!"
That's the Tea Party M.O, it work great to do their bidding in making the federal government grind to a halt.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Not voting transmits exactly 0 message.
Because assuming you are liberal, those who are staunchly conservative are still willing to hit the polls hard as fuck while you sit on your laurels and complain nothing changes. All the while chipping away at the supposed rights you're so very much for.
Dude I'm with to on this. This is the voice of reason.
There are plenty reasons to dislike Hillary. There are zero reasons to not vote for her if she is the nominee if you are even close to liberal
timetokill
Banned
This is an overly simplistic view of US politics.
Not true. A vote or a non-vote sends a message, but a weak one either way. A vote can be a message of support for a candidate, a message of support against another candidate, or it can be literally random choice with no real message. A non-vote can be a message of apathy or a message of non-confidence in the system in general, or displeasure with the available candidates.
And this isn't even an exhaustive list. If you want to "send a message" that is in any way clear, voting is a terrible way to do it. But to day it sends no message at all is not true.
Im not liberal, Im a socialdemocrat, moderate socialist. Hillary is centrist-right for me, so my views does not allign with her, or at least, she is too weak on those views.
I wouldn't say it's a sure thing in 2024, but I would say it's a sure thing in the future. The question is whether or not Bernie 2.0 will be a good candidate that can actually win. Rather, not so much as there will be a Bernie 2.0 than that future candidates will be campaigning on and achieving policy further left.
The problem is that it is nearly impossible to divide like/dislike of Hillary from sexism (I disagree with going as far as misogyny). The Hillary of today would not be the Hillary of today without the scars of sexism that has dogged her since she became First Lady. The present day perception of Hillary would not have existed without the extremity by which she was treated by the Republicans back in the day.
Moreover, inherently men and women alike have bias against well-performing women that well-performing men don't get. It's probably not active sexism, but an unconscious influence is possible. It's just hard to distinguish and easy for people to excuse.
I say this over and over to you, but you're very happy to extol Norway and whatnot, but you still haven't tried to learn anything about American politics or the American constituency. This is a gaming forum! (supposedly) Why doesn't anyone try to learn the systems, the mechanics, and assess the field?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Not voting sends no message at all. It doesn't tell the party anything. Were you too lazy? Sick? Away? Forgot? Didn't like anyone? Couldn't get off from work? Who knows.
I don't think you understand what liberal means. You'd be considered a liberal with that stance.
Liberal=progressive=leftist. We only use progressive instead of liberal now because pubs made liberal a bad word through advertising.
Read my post. It doesn't matter what you think about Clinton herself. What you want is a liberal administration and a for once liberal Supreme Court. If you care about the Left at ALL yo vote Clinton, naturally
If all you care about is some silly point that you think you are trying to make that means nothing in the long run, then enjoy that passive vote for trump.
Note: I'm talking general election here. People should try to move Bernie or whoever forward during this period. But the second Clinton gets the nom, you switch directly in favor of her
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Absolutely correct. The only message not voting sends is "I am a political non-entity that you can ignore."
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Bunch of "poors" suffering from "economic bitternes"
People would vote for skeletor to get away from some of the enlightened views on the net. Its not right though. But...
People would vote for skeletor to get away from some of the enlightened views on the net. Its not right though. But...
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I voted for Trudeau but would gladly swap him for Hillary if we could. She'd make a fantastic leader, she's way more experienced in public policy and in foreign relations, and would be a role model for women everywhere, and would do just as good a job at advancing progressive causes & adequately funding municipal infrastructure investment.
She's absolutely a leftist. The political climate of your country makes it difficult to steer the ship hard left but she's especially well experienced in dealing with obstruction from right wing lunatics and would do better than anyone bringing real implementations of progressive policy.
As bad as things are it's not even close to bad enough to get to a revolution level. There are pockets where I could see things desperate enough for violence to be brought against the system, oppressed minorities using violent resistance against police for example, but overall America is not desperate enough to want the kind of change Bernie would try to bring.
We've seen great and amazing rapid change come from catastrophe like the great depression leading to the new deal but the next depression could just as easily lead to a Trump supporting dystopia winning out rather than anot her new deal becoming a reality.
I would love some extremist things like a forceful government crackdown on gun ownership but you work with what you have and what we have is Hillary v Trump.
We've seen great and amazing rapid change come from catastrophe like the great depression leading to the new deal but the next depression could just as easily lead to a Trump supporting dystopia winning out rather than anot her new deal becoming a reality.
I would love some extremist things like a forceful government crackdown on gun ownership but you work with what you have and what we have is Hillary v Trump.
In all honesty, I've stopped caring about politics, outside of the obvious entertainment value here and there.
Only liberals say this, which is so saddening
Darkangel
Member
Some people want to send a message to the Democrats that they need better left wing candidates in order to earn votes. If Hillary fails this year for that reason, then it could mean a more Bernie-like candidate in 2020. A short term loss for a long term political change.
That's what they think anyway...
That's what they think anyway...
boiled goose
good with gravy
I agree with you generally here.
As I have always explained in my posts, going Donal over Hillary is silly.
My main disagreement with the OP is the "fall in line now" argument. Some people think falling in line now is a good tactical move for the country. I disagree with that. I think folks should fight all the way till the election to make their voices heard. Push politicians to earn their vote. Win or lose on each issue, they have to vote rationally in November. That's it.
You are discounting the possibility of Cyborg Bernie. By then, medical technology will have advanced enough for our first Jewish, non religious, social democrat, mostly non-human and oldest president.
Yes. Personally I disagree with this strategy because I think the GOP does permanent or very long term damage to the country whenever they are in power. But it is a strategy...
doctorblurg
Banned
they mean someone who is politically like minded to Bernie
NoblesseOblige
Banned
No, not voting quite literally is failing to transmit a message. The fact you followed up with so many cans indicates a message is not being sent.
They think dumb. Losing the SCOTUS for a generation is a long term loss and way more important than losing the White House for 4 years.
lastflowers
Banned
What is this Bernie-Or-Bust crowd? Is it people who vote Green party?
The only thing I actually trust Clinton to do is not get people deported. I don't trust her to appoint anyone to any high up position unless they play the same shady bullshit political games she does. I don't trust her to stick her nose into other countries affairs while we have our own problems to deal with. I'm personally already screwed when either Clump becomes president. Hilary is just going to add more gotchas to an already long list with the ACA and make it harder for me to afford health insurance since I'm in a pickle at the moment. The only thing that would get me out of a pickle is if somebody came in and got rid of the gotcha's and eventually ACA all together so everyone could get the same insurance. She's going to do two things in regards to banks and the evironment... Jack and shit, and Jack ran off to Canada. Finally she's claiming to have debt free college by means of the same policies that are already in place that already screw people because all her "benefits" that are going to "help" college students assume parents pay for tuition and that their income is stable.
The list goes on for a bit... But there are far more reasons for me NOT to vote for her than there are reasons. But I probably will end up voting for her because unlike her I'm going to put my problems aside and make sure Muslims and Mexicans, etc don't get kicked out of the country for stupid reasons. But while she's not kicking people out, she's still going to be sending this country down and everyone is going to be worse off because they act liberal until they have to put their money where their mouth is then suddenly they don't want single payer health care, etc.
Marty O'Malley is going to start a revolution in abs.
thiscoldblack
Unconfirmed Member
Why would I go out my way to a voting location to vote for a flip-flop like Hillary?
Sure, let's conform with Hillary because of Trump.
Sure, let's conform with Hillary because of Trump.
timetokill
Banned
I had "so many cans" in the vote section too. I guess voting sends no message either.
Non-participation is a valid choice in a democratic process.
If they wanted better left wing candidate you would think they would vote for them in local election...just saying.
That is fair and those are all good points. I can see why that would make her not a perfect candidate for many.
It just seems like if the population wants to shift the discussion away from the increasingly radicalized right wing then she is still worth voting for. Not only that, but democrats tend to be weak in the critical local elections and staying home throws that in the garbage too.
Neuromancer
Member
Telling other people how to vote is so incredibly arrogant.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...als-clinton-sanders-trump-president/81612520/
I'd imagine the missing 6% are green partyers
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
I'm expecting that the mainstream Democratic voters simply will not ever be angry enough to demand substantive change until they've endured enough of the polar opposite. We endured 8 years of Bush to get to Obama and his most "liberal" proposition was a solution to healthcare that was a warmed-over Republican idea whose most attractive feature was compromised away. The slate of Republican candidates gets worse every cycle and, like clockwork, the Democrats put forth a centrist and tell progressives to fall in line and hope for next time.
The Democratic party perpetually whines about a lack of progressive action in Washington yet largely fails to support candidates that propose what they claim to want when it comes time to do something about it. At that point, they fall into their pattern, demand we fall in line or be guilty by abstaining, and wonder why they're not going to get what they claimed to want when it was convenient to do so.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
That's fine, I didn't say voting sends a message did I? Someone pretended that them not voting sends a bigger message. I am saying that is patently false.
Basically all of politics is telling people how to vote.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Princess Carl
Member
I'm glad all the people in here not voting live in the vacuum where there isnt a hyper-nationalistic, xenophobic, and racist circus leader attempting to seize the presidency. Really, I am so happy you are privileged to exist there; how about you go post in that forum then?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It actually does nothing, statistically and ideologically.
If you want change, create it. I think Americans have been subservient to authoritarianism for so long that we've forgotten it doesn't even have to be this way. We can literally create the nation we want, just as previous Americans did when they founded the country and at every major milestone in our history. Revolution is possible, but the work has to be done.
Had people gotten out and voted in 2010, instead of sitting back at home because it wasn't a presidential election, we wouldn't have a conservative majority in the Senate.
This is more like, "Not voting for Hillary is a vote for Trump". The system is a system which brings you literally no choice.
Sitting out of a vote when presidency, supreme court and the senate are all basically hanging in the balance in the very near future is also incredibly stupid.
Everything you are complaining about would be worse under trump
That's kind of the point of this post. Many people have found their dream candidate in Bernie. naturally what gives Bernie appeal, causes hatred for Hillary since she seems the more typical politician. But that shouldn't blind people to what voting for Hillary means if she wins the nomination. Unlike trump she is NOT going to repeal obamacare, she is NOT Going to defund planned parenthood, she is NOT going to appoint a right wing Supreme Court justice, she is NOT going to pass bills that destroy progress that immediately get supported by a right wing congress.
lastflowers
Banned
so if I vote Green does that mean I'm a horrible citizen now that hates women or is too young and naïve or any of the other implications thrown around in this thread?
Reading through this thread, it seems like generally speaking two points of view are being presented: Individualism Vs Community.
Some are saying that infringing on personal beliefs to vote for someone that doesn't align with those beliefs as strongly is a betrayal of their own ideals and by inches kills any chance that they'll ever see something more closely aligned with their ideals coming to prominence.
On the other hand, some seem more concerned with a bigger picture of how their vote will affect the country as a whole. These people see the potential damage that could be done to our country as a community as reason enough to vote against madness and even if that means a vote for someone who isn't everything they want.
This is excepting people that have just always been staunchly for Hillary, of course. They're just having a good time.
Anyway, I have this to say about all this: I wish we had more of a parliamentary system, something that was more favorable to more than two political parties. I'd love to have a more nuanced gradient of political representation. I'd love it if the two major parties at a national level were composed of rational, well-intended people who simply differed on policy. I'd love it if everywhere in this country was ready to take the steps necessary to move forward into a state that is closer to a Democratic Socialist ideal, rather than just pockets of progressivism across the country being ready now when there is so, so much work to do still everywhere else before the majority of Americans can honestly say, "Yes, we're ready."
I'm sorry, but the facts are we're not there. We're past the post, which means we're two party. One of those parties is currently being eaten up with fanaticism and demagoguery at the national level. A large portion of the country is way more worried about survival right now than they are about loftier ideals. Those are just facts. You guys are not wrong that a more aggressively progressive platform is the future for this country. To make room for a future where Americans are ready to embrace that, liberals have to keep defeating the conservative monolith by a death of a thousand cuts.
You don't think we're progressives? Fine. Think that. But know that you have a seat at our table. You have a chance of getting some of what you want and, in time, maybe all of what you want. That's something I look forward to. The only other group that has even a snowball's chance in hell of taking power will not give you the same offer. They will set you back ever further and they will rig the system against your ideals far beyond anything that currently frustrates you. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, man. Seriously. We may disagree about some finer points of policy, but in a much larger sense, we want to help you succeed.
If Hillary becomes the nominee, you're going to want to support her. Not for her sake at all. Screw Hillary Clinton, whatever. She's a doorway to the only future timeline where you have a continued chance to take power though. That's just how it is right now.
Some are saying that infringing on personal beliefs to vote for someone that doesn't align with those beliefs as strongly is a betrayal of their own ideals and by inches kills any chance that they'll ever see something more closely aligned with their ideals coming to prominence.
On the other hand, some seem more concerned with a bigger picture of how their vote will affect the country as a whole. These people see the potential damage that could be done to our country as a community as reason enough to vote against madness and even if that means a vote for someone who isn't everything they want.
This is excepting people that have just always been staunchly for Hillary, of course. They're just having a good time.
Anyway, I have this to say about all this: I wish we had more of a parliamentary system, something that was more favorable to more than two political parties. I'd love to have a more nuanced gradient of political representation. I'd love it if the two major parties at a national level were composed of rational, well-intended people who simply differed on policy. I'd love it if everywhere in this country was ready to take the steps necessary to move forward into a state that is closer to a Democratic Socialist ideal, rather than just pockets of progressivism across the country being ready now when there is so, so much work to do still everywhere else before the majority of Americans can honestly say, "Yes, we're ready."
I'm sorry, but the facts are we're not there. We're past the post, which means we're two party. One of those parties is currently being eaten up with fanaticism and demagoguery at the national level. A large portion of the country is way more worried about survival right now than they are about loftier ideals. Those are just facts. You guys are not wrong that a more aggressively progressive platform is the future for this country. To make room for a future where Americans are ready to embrace that, liberals have to keep defeating the conservative monolith by a death of a thousand cuts.
You don't think we're progressives? Fine. Think that. But know that you have a seat at our table. You have a chance of getting some of what you want and, in time, maybe all of what you want. That's something I look forward to. The only other group that has even a snowball's chance in hell of taking power will not give you the same offer. They will set you back ever further and they will rig the system against your ideals far beyond anything that currently frustrates you. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, man. Seriously. We may disagree about some finer points of policy, but in a much larger sense, we want to help you succeed.
If Hillary becomes the nominee, you're going to want to support her. Not for her sake at all. Screw Hillary Clinton, whatever. She's a doorway to the only future timeline where you have a continued chance to take power though. That's just how it is right now.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I think it is better to make arguments than to say "fall in line", which is what the OP was.
Politics is give and take. I'd rather see Hillary supporters (and Bernie supporters too) push Hillary to earn as many votes on the left as possible with her ideas and policies.
She is good at compromise and pragmatism right? Well that means going left as much as going right. She has CLEARLY been already moved a bit left during the primary because of Bernie. They can keep this pressure all the way till November.
It makes you significantly better than people who would not vote at all or vote for Trump, which is 29% of Bernie supporters. At least you can effect local and state elections in a positive way.
But it also gives you no right to complain if Trump is elected president.
MrCunningham
Member
Why would it matter when you are going to get served a dinner that you don't like regardless of who wins? If I had the option between two candidates that I don't like, I would rather not vote at all instead of giving a fake vote. Unless of course write-in votes are still a thing. Or just return the ballot empty.
I'm from Canada, so don't worry about me contributing to that. Whenever we have an election in Canada and I am faced with a bunch of candidates that I do not like, I just default to voting for the Green Party and call it a day.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I don't know, what are your reasons for voting green?
I am curious how many people with similar thoughts and comments on this forum aren't from the united states. Without saying so and using terms like "left" can really fuck up a conversation about US politics.
to be honest, it gets tiring.
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