You Are Viewtiful
Member
No way man, they're the real progressives.
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This "I'm a progressive but if Hillary is the nominee, I'm not voting" shit is stale
- Thread starter PlayALLtheGames
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No way man, they're the real progressives.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No, they vote for the president directly. But they typically also vote for state senators, governors etc.Here in Australia we vote for the party, not their leader.
Isn't that essentially what you'll be doing come election day?
Mercury Fred
Banned
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
With 3-4 SC justices on the line, this election is definitely the best time to sit it out.
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
While it's not exactly "tiring" it is irksome that given no other option these liberals would rather want their society to regress then to hold on for the one election that could actually spark something beneficially progressive-- SCOTUS seats are the last defensive line progressive policies have, and tipping the edge over to a more conservative side won't be helping anyone expecting change, except in the opposite direction.
EDIT: Basically Ninja'd by the above.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
With 3-4 SC justices on the line, this election is definitely the best time to sit it out.
Yes, I'm familiar with the "Better bad than worse" argument that has and will always apply based on the trajectory of the Republican party. At least it's honest though as it betrays the fact that the Democratic party will never push a globally liberal agenda while it can eek out victories with milquetoast candidates.
Melkezadek
Member
With 3-4 SC justices on the line, this election is definitely the best time to sit it out.
Bingo. Why are people ignoring this fact?
Box of Kittens
Banned
Here in Australia we vote for the party, not their leader.
Isn't that essentially what you'll be doing come election day?
It's a bit different in the US. Technically speaking the president is not directly elected by the voters, but you still cast a ballot that is explicitly for your preferred presidential candidate and the results of that election (in a somewhat roundabout way) do determine who is the president.
A better analog with how the Prime Minister is chosen in Australia would be elections for the Speaker of the House of Representatives, in that the voters elect representatives from their district, and the representatives in turn elect the Speaker (that is, they'll chose the leader of the party in the House).
Dash_Riprock
Member
Bingo. Why are people ignoring this fact?
Pride.
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
And your solution is to let Trump win?
Mercury Fred
Banned
Yes, I'm familiar with the "Better bad than worse" argument that has and will always apply based on the trajectory of the Republican party. At least it's honest though as it betrays the fact that the Democratic party will never push a globally liberal agenda while it can eek out victories with milquetoast candidates.
Dude.
Dude.
Duuuuuude. We are on the precipice of TRANSFORMING THE SUPREME COURT. That could mean repealing Citizens United, dealing with corporations as citizens, real gun regulation, etc.
Don't you think that it sets the stage to actually push a globally liberal agenda once the SC turns over? That people don't see this automatically is actually shocking to me.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
It's not so much about "liberals" as it is about vulnerable members of society. That is, it's one thing to say you won't settle for the lesser of two evils if you're a straight white upper middle class male, it's another thing when the party that holds power has a greater potential to have direct negative consequences for your life.
uncelestial
Member
Minorities, LGBT voters, and women didn't owe the Democrats their vote then any more than Sanders supporters owe Hillary their vote now. As ever, support must be earned, and it is on Hillary to earn it, not on Sanders supporters to "fall in line."1. The lot of you are crying about how you can't vote for a politician who doesn't truly represent you. Boo fucking hoo, minorities, LGBT, and women have had to deal with that for decades. There is a political party that is actively trying to fuck their lives up in so many ways. They never get a politician who that truly represents them but you don't see them saying "Fuck the system lololol, I'll vote republican for the lulz!" They still vote for the closest politican they can find.
Maybe you shouldn't namecall and use phrases like "you people" and paint with broad hateful brush strokes about millions of progressive voters. Just my MO when I'm doing the whole "being a liberal" thing.Bernie's policies and platform were never the reason you people were voting for him. You were voting for him because most of you are to put it bluntly...fucking hipsters and Bernie Sanders/Feel the Bernie was the newest fad that you jumped on to show all your twitter/Facebook friends that you're "socially woke" and to pretend that you give a damn about the country or the people. It was an shallow act, and now that Bernie has lost you've dropped the fad and are on to the next one.
Yes, I'm familiar with the "Better bad than worse" argument that has and will always apply based on the trajectory of the Republican party. At least it's honest though as it betrays the fact that the Democratic party will never push a globally liberal agenda while it can eek out victories with milquetoast candidates.
Wow. this is not "better bad than worse" argument, this is a "keeping things at a normal or better level and stopping decades of hard-fought liberties from being erased" argument.
Well, it's less of an argument and more like common sense.
The Democrat party
The Democratic party.
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
For me it's because I've been around for those decades and saw what happens when people--who had a far more legitimate complaint at the time than folks do now--decide to go down this path. It was fucking destructive. It pulled the country further to the right in alarming ways. We're still being afflicted by the fallout to this day.
Could the OP be more condescending and insulting? I will not be voting for neoliberal crooks and no amount of obnoxious insults or blame is gonna convince me otherwise. Actual progressives and leftists don't vote for the least of two neoliberal evils and this isn't how democracy is supposed to function, end of story. You support a neoliberal, you're a neoliberal because that politician is your representative.
Pretty much.
uncelestial
Member
Right, like the members of society who need to be brought to heel, or that try to marry when they aren't one man and one woman.It's not so much about "liberals" as it is about vulnerable members of society. That is, it's one thing to say you won't settle for the lesser of two evils if you're a straight white upper middle class male, it's another thing when the party that holds power has a greater potential to have direct negative consequences for your life.
Abstrusity
Member
The Democratic party.
Fixed. Ironically, I used it right once and then messed it up the next time.
And aren't you tired of it? Is anything going to change if we keep voting this way? I'm not gay, so from the bottom of my heart I promise I'm not going to try to, in any way, relate the admittedly tame struggles you've probably to deal with - if I do I sincerely apologize. But I stand by my feelings. Political discourse is never (and should never) go away, but its become increasingly clear to me that our "two"-party system is at the root of a lot of my issues, politically speaking. It may seem petty to you, but in my eyes not choosing is, in fact, a choice. I don't see Drumpf particularly being able to kick us back to the stone age as people are fearful he might, but I'd be embarrassed to call him my president. While I agree with Hillary on SOME issues, I simply don't trust her and she certainly doesn't strike me as a leader, so I can't in good conscience vote for her either.As a gay man, I've had to vote for the lesser of two evils my entire life.
As has been stated already, it's an incredibly privileged position to not vote or too vote for Trump when the lives of people of color, women and LGBT people are on the line here. Must be nice to be able to be so comfy that you can sit it out.
I realize how douchey and privileged it sounds, but hey, voting IS a privilege that I'm awarded. Neither Drumpf or Hillary deserve my vote, so neither will get it. If I go, I'll write in Sanders.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Could the OP be more condescending and insulting? I will not be voting for neoliberal crooks and no amount of obnoxious insults or blame is gonna convince me otherwise. Actual progressives and leftists don't vote for the least of two neoliberal evils and this isn't how democracy is supposed to function, end of story. You support a neoliberal, you're a neoliberal because that politician is your representative.
Nice job proving the OP's point.
Officerrob
Banned
Here in Australia we vote for the party, not their leader.
Isn't that essentially what you'll be doing come election day?
I'd vote for a rotting corpse if they had a "D" next to their name and would appoint left leaning judges to the Supreme COurt
Wait, why is Trump not going to be able to follow-through on his audacious policies but Sanders would be? The sad truth is that Trump (or any Republican President) has a far bigger opportunity to regress this country than folks are giving them "credit" for.
As a Bernie supporter, neither would be able to do the majority of what they're promising. Bernie openly admits this.
Reading a few comments on this thread and it makes me upset that everyone is instantly assuming that Trump will take us back culturally and whatnot. I'll be voting for him come November but I guess I won't be able to experience his racism and regressiveness due to my white privilege.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Reading a few comments on this thread and it makes me upset that everyone is instantly assuming that Trump will take us back culturally and whatnot. I'll be voting for him come November but I guess I won't be able to experience his racism and regressiveness due to my white privilege.
Um...duh?
As a Bernie supporter, neither would be able to do the majority of what they're promising. Bernie openly admits this.
The difference is that Trump would be empowered to do a lot more damage than Sanders would be empowered to make progress.
And aren't you tired of it? Is anything going to change if we keep voting this way? I'm not gay, so from the bottom of my heart I promise I'm not going to try to, in any way, relate the admittedly tame struggles you've probably to deal with - if I do I sincerely apologize. But I stand by my feelings. Political discourse is never (and should never) go away, but its become increasingly clear to me that our "two"-party system is at the root of a lot of my issues, politically speaking. It may seem petty to you, but in my eyes not choosing is, in fact, a choice. I don't see Drumpf particularly being able to kick us back to the stone age as people are fearful he might, but I'd be embarrassed to call him my president. While I agree with Hillary on SOME issues, I simply don't trust her and she certainly doesn't strike me as a leader, so I can't in good conscience vote for her either.
I realize how douchey and privileged it sounds, but hey, voting IS a privilege that I'm awarded. Neither Drumpf or Hillary deserve my vote, so neither will get it. If I go, I'll write in Sanders.
Things ARE changing to be better for LGBT individuals. Things ARE getting better for people who can't afford healthcare. Have you been ignoring those and other recent Supreme Court decisions? And do you realize how much is on the line right now with the current vacancy left by Scalia and upcoming vacancies expected in the next few years?
What issues do you disagree with Hillary on? So much so that you'd rather have Trump in power than her? So much so that you'd undermine all the gradual progress made over the last decade because of "disagreements" with someone you don't want to vote for even though she shares 90% of her opinions with Bernie?
Melkezadek
Member
Minorities, LGBT voters, and women didn't owe the Democrats their vote then any more than Sanders supporters owe Hillary their vote now. As ever, support must be earned, and it is on Hillary to earn it, not on Sanders supporters to "fall in line."
Well, speaking as a minority, I feel I would be insane to not do what I can to stop a candidate, who is actively trying to make my life hell simply because I'm a minority. Understanding the reality of a 2 party system, I realize that it's not a simple matter of "falling in line" it's that any other choice I would make (not voting or voting for a candidate who has ZERO chance of winning) would be foolish given the climate we're currently in.
If there were a candidate who is gaining steam and advocating who the deportation of persecution of all white Christians in the country, you best believe I will be voting against that person. I'm not white and I'm damn sure not Christian, but to me, there should be a zero tolerance for using a platform such of the President of the United States, to promote hate for group of people based on race, religion, or sexual preference. It supersedes all politics to me.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And aren't you tired of it? Is anything going to change if we keep voting this way?
If by "voting this way" you mean "largely only voting for the president once every four years and that's about it" then no, nothing's going to change. If you aren't willing to help get your interests represented on a local/state level, then why would you ever have any other choice than the ones we keep having to make?
I will not vote For Hillary. I will use my political voice to abstain from voting for a centrist democrat again.
It's a reasonable and understandable decision. I may vote for a third party candidate if I find one that I can believe in.
I'm an independent though. I don't have an need to vote for the party.
It's a reasonable and understandable decision. I may vote for a third party candidate if I find one that I can believe in.
I'm an independent though. I don't have an need to vote for the party.
And aren't you tired of it? Is anything going to change if we keep voting this way? I'm not gay, so from the bottom of my heart I promise I'm not going to try to, in any way, relate the admittedly tame struggles you've probably to deal with - if I do I sincerely apologize. But I stand by my feelings. Political discourse is never (and should never) go away, but its become increasingly clear to me that our "two"-party system is at the root of a lot of my issues, politically speaking. It may seem petty to you, but in my eyes not choosing is, in fact, a choice. I don't see Drumpf particularly being able to kick us back to the stone age as people are fearful he might, but I'd be embarrassed to call him my president. While I agree with Hillary on SOME issues, I simply don't trust her and she certainly doesn't strike me as a leader, so I can't in good conscience vote for her either.
I realize how douchey and privileged it sounds, but hey, voting IS a privilege that I'm awarded. Neither Drumpf or Hillary deserve my vote, so neither will get it. If I go, I'll write in Sanders.
Why revolt when the Republicans are against the ropes? They've dominated almost every election up until obama for the past 40 years.
This is what the democrats have been waiting for, and right at the point of appointing several justices.
Sure, sure, but what if you're just really bored of not getting your way 100%?Well, speaking as a minority, I feel I would be insane to not do what I can to stop a candidate, who is actively trying to make my life hell simply because I'm a minority. Understanding the reality of a 2 party system, I realize that it's not a simple matter of "falling in line" it's that any other choice I would make (not voting or voting for a candidate who has ZERO chance of winning) would be foolish given the climate we're currently in.
If there were a candidate who is getting steam and advocating who the deportation of persecution of all white Christians in the country, you best believe I will be voting against that person. I'm not white and I'm damn sure not Christian, but to me, there should be a zero tolerance for using a platform such of the President of the United States, to promote hate for group of people based on race, religion, or sexual preference. It supersedes all politics to me.
Box of Kittens
Banned
Right, like the members of society who need to be brought to heel, or that try to marry when they aren't one man and one woman.
This game of "gotcha" really has nothing to do with the point I was making. My point is that your voting decision between two candidates whom you both perceive as flawed can be effected by the worse choice having direct and negative consequences on your life.
This game of "gotcha" really has nothing to do with the point I was making. My point is that your voting decision between two candidates whom you both perceive as flawed can be effected by the worse choice having direct and negative consequences on your life.
But don't you see that the candidate that says only black people live in poverty is the only choice worth making!
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The question is basically:
If you're in the privileged position of being able to abstain from voting without you feeling like it'd directly harm you to do so, is the symbolic action of abstention worth the satisfaction of being able to say "at least I didn't compromise my values," as opposed to having done the bare minimum on your part to prevent shit getting automatically, appreciably worse for over half of the country's population.
That's the thing you get to weigh. Which symbolic gesture is worth more to you:
Not voting/voting unelectable third party = At least I didn't fold
or
voting Clinton = At least I tried to help.
If you're in the privileged position of being able to abstain from voting without you feeling like it'd directly harm you to do so, is the symbolic action of abstention worth the satisfaction of being able to say "at least I didn't compromise my values," as opposed to having done the bare minimum on your part to prevent shit getting automatically, appreciably worse for over half of the country's population.
That's the thing you get to weigh. Which symbolic gesture is worth more to you:
Not voting/voting unelectable third party = At least I didn't fold
or
voting Clinton = At least I tried to help.
Mercury Fred
Banned
I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about.Minorities, LGBT voters, and women didn't owe the Democrats their vote then any more than Sanders supporters owe Hillary their vote now. As ever, support must be earned, and it is on Hillary to earn it, not on Sanders supporters to "fall in line."
At all.
I was bitter about voting for Obama in '08-- he was anti-gay marriage and rubbed salt in the wound with his shitty "god is in the mix" statement about what makes hetero unions special. He also chose anti-gay pastor Rick Warren to give his inauguration prayer.
And yet, I knew that not voting or doing some opposition vote was self-destructive and destructive for many people a lot less privileged than me. If I were to hold out for a pro-gay marriage candidate back then, I would have been out of luck.
And now Obama has turned out to be the best president yet on gay rights and his SC appointments have helped make nationwide marriage equality a reality. I couldn't be happier about that.
I would say I was mature enough and smart enough and looked at the big picture enough to know that while Obama was not exactly earning my vote I was able to not be a spoiled child about not getting exactly what I wanted out of his campaign promises or lack thereof.
uncelestial
Member
I hate TARP laws and share your anger towards them, as well as Trump. QQ tho: Is voting for a third-party candidate "voting against Trump?" Let's say Jill Stein secures the Green party candidacy this year. Are you a "fucking idiot" for voting for her if you are a woman?If a woman is prochoice and does not vote against Trump this election, I will say that she is a fucking idiot.
This has nothing to do with falling in line, and everything to do with the fact that Trump will continue the Republican agenda of making abortion inaccessible to many, many women in the United States.
Broad stroke, sure, but it's just a fact in this political climate.
Honestly, I've been banned for saying someone was "being toxic" -- not even calling them that name as a person, just saying that they were acting terribly. So now I'm really bothered to see this kind of namecalling on here, as I'm going to really try to never cross any line like that. I'd like to see you and Angelus try a little harder.
What do you believe Trump will do for this country? Make the best trade deals? Just the best. Or how about building that wall and making Mexico pay for it? Or banning Muslims?Reading a few comments on this thread and it makes me upset that everyone is instantly assuming that Trump will take us back culturally and whatnot. I'll be voting for him come November but I guess I won't be able to experience his racism and regressiveness due to my white privilege.
What do you hope that a Trump presidency would bring besides sticking it to those fat cats in Washington?
uncelestial
Member
That's one issue that was important to you. There are others, important to other people. I don't see how your story negates their desire to have those issues fought for, or proves that I "don't know what I'm talking about" when I point out this simple fact.I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about.
At all.
I was bitter about voting for Obama in '08-- he was anti-gay marriage and rubbed salt in the wound with his shitty "god is in the mix" statement about what makes hetero unions special. He also chose anti-gay pastor Rick Warren to give his inauguration prayer.
And yet, I knew that not voting or doing some opposition vote was self-destructive and destructive for many people a lot less privileged than me. If I were to hold out for a pro-gay marriage candidate back then, I would have been out of luck.
And now Obama has turned out to be the best president yet on gay rights and his SC appointments have helped make nationwide marriage equality a reality. I couldn't be happier about that.
I would say I was mature enough and smart enough and looked at the big picture enough to know that while Obama was not exactly earning my vote I was able to not be a spoiled child about not getting exactly what I wanted out of his campaign promises or lack thereof.
And by the way, Hillary has a terrible track record on race and gay marriage even if there weren't other issues.
Liberals have been holding their noses and voting for centrist Democrats for decades. How tired could you possibly be of people who are finally saying 'No' after begrudgingly carrying this party's water for that length of time?
Not centrist, rightwing. The majority of Democrats in Congress are rightwingers by objective economic standards. Worldwide standards though, not American "standards" the corporate media have created by brainwashing the population reaching the point where they now call a health system like ACA socialist.
Nice job proving the OP's point.
What a lazy post. Care to explain how I did that?
Mercury Fred
Banned
As others have pointed out, things ARE changing! Hello, marriage equality was huge. Intersectionality is becoming part of the national conversation, the country is in many ways moving left socially.And aren't you tired of it? Is anything going to change if we keep voting this way? I'm not gay, so from the bottom of my heart I promise I'm not going to try to, in any way, relate the admittedly tame struggles you've probably to deal with - if I do I sincerely apologize. But I stand by my feelings. Political discourse is never (and should never) go away, but its become increasingly clear to me that our "two"-party system is at the root of a lot of my issues, politically speaking. It may seem petty to you, but in my eyes not choosing is, in fact, a choice. I don't see Drumpf particularly being able to kick us back to the stone age as people are fearful he might, but I'd be embarrassed to call him my president. While I agree with Hillary on SOME issues, I simply don't trust her and she certainly doesn't strike me as a leader, so I can't in good conscience vote for her either.
I realize how douchey and privileged it sounds, but hey, voting IS a privilege that I'm awarded. Neither Drumpf or Hillary deserve my vote, so neither will get it. If I go, I'll write in Sanders.
However, if everyone felt like you did in '08, millions of people would have fewer civil rights. Think about that.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for people like me and people like the poor, the disenfranchised, people who face racism and discrimination every day. You have a chance, in your small way, to help make their lives appreciably better. So, please do it.
That's one issue that was important to you. There are others, important to other people. I don't see how your story negates their desire to have those issues fought for, or proves that I "don't know what I'm talking about" when I point out this simple fact.
And by the way, Hillary has a terrible track record on race and gay marriage even if there weren't other issues.
The story illustrates that I put on my big boy pants when it came time to vote in the general. That's what it means.
That's one issue that was important to you. There are others, important to other people. I don't see how your story negates their desire to have those issues fought for, or proves that I "don't know what I'm talking about" when I point out this simple fact.
And by the way, Hillary has a terrible track record on race and gay marriage even if there weren't other issues.
She's a fucking angel compared to Voldemort Trump, trying to frame her as a Republican in Dem clothing will not get you far.
Officerrob
Banned
Those who don't want to hold their nose and vote for Hillary can vote for Jill Stein instead.
Might as well vote for Deez Nuts
jakonovski
Member
Not voting/voting unelectable third party = At least I didn't fold
The way America is going, this is the only freedom many people have, the only way to get their voice heard.
Getting one's voice heard is the point of democracy.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
While it's not exactly "tiring" it is irksome that given no other option these liberals would rather want their society to regress then to hold on for the one election that could actually spark something beneficially progressive-- SCOTUS seats are the last defensive line progressive policies have, and tipping the edge over to a more conservative side won't be helping anyone expecting change, except in the opposite direction.
There are no progressive policies from Democratic favorites so we're left with another decision entirely. We can have another few decades of Republican-lite candidates and, at best, center-right Supreme Court placements through an intransigent Congress or 4 years of Trump and some painful Supreme Court appointments that serve as electroconvulsive therapy and breaks this cycle of Democratic mediocrity once and for all. As I stated earlier, the Democratic party is happy to continue this cycle in perpetuity until something truly horrific happens to wake up and unify the party. Perhaps a loss to Trump is the horrific affliction that finally awakens the party to the realization that chasing the Republicans rightward toward the cliff and expecting liberals to keep following their hollow promises of a carrot to come was the wrong move entirely.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
OrThere are no progressive policies from Democratic favorites so we're left with another decision entirely. We can have another few decades of Republican-lite candidates and, at best, center-right Supreme Court placements through an intransigent Congress or 4 years of Trump and some painful Supreme Court appointments that serve as electroconvulsive therapy and breaks this cycle of Democratic mediocrity once and for all. As I stated earlier, the Democratic party is happy to continue this cycle in perpetuity until something truly horrific happens to wake up and unify the party. Perhaps a loss to Trump is the horrific affliction that finally awakens the party to the realization that chasing the Republicans rightward toward the cliff and expecting liberals to keep following their hollow promises of a carrot to come was the wrong move entirely.
Perhaps they will think they weren't conservative enough and swing real hard towards the middle and maybe a bit to the right, like when blue dogs got into office during bush's tenure
But okay you're right they'll get your message of like 2 million voters instead of the one from about 60 millions voters on the right. And the left will be better for it, yup , no doubt.
Hell of a chance to take to make a point but, hey, your vote is your vote.
The sad reality is, is that the Presidency is a two party system. Now if you want to change that in the future, get out there and help your local government Green Party get elected.Those who don't want to hold their nose and vote for Hillary can vote for Jill Stein instead.
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