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[plasmawave]

Not that abby didnt kill ellie. These are not real persons, they dont exist. He says the developers made it at such. Its really not that difficult to see. Dual protagonists, both women. One lesbian. One buffed that she looks like a man (strong, independent woman that can do as much a man trope), trannies in the game which they said they even consulted someone. They took every single thing that was trending when they started development and put it in the game.

As Jonathan Cooper said recently, ND designes games to score high. They chose nuances that apeal to the culture at that given time and focus test the living shit out of the same formula they use for 15 years almost. What that means is they found the narative and cinematic aspects make a lot of folks ignore the actual game playing aspect to a certain degree. Then they form a test group made up of varieties of individuals that they feel represents their audience. Then every time they complete a segment they run it through the focus group, observe their reactions, then go back and redo it if they have to.

Its a game very clinically made for the purpose of getting high scores. Sounds weird, but it is what it is.

You put together most of the gaming press which grades ND games how they think the audience expects them to. How they "should", not necesarily how they actually think, because you have the tribal hordes of sony worshipers after you and maybe sony reaches out to you about your review which doesnt allign with the "consensus". Maybe you wont get invited to that 5 day trip, all expenses paid, parties, work in progress access and socialising with the industry peeps in the future. So maybe you feel compeled to write the "correct" type of review

You're ignoring Abby killing Jesse and almost killing Tommy just before that boss fight.

 

[Saruhashi]

I know you guys will look for confirmation bias anywhere you can find it but you can't really respect Joe as a critic can you?

LOL. Sounds like somebody didn't get invited to Joe's hotel room for a quick shower.

 

[Starbuck2907]

Game of Thrones was big during the development.

The writer decided to kill off a main character and give an unsatisfying ending.

Sound familiar?

 

[Birdo]

Joe's friend with the beard is huge!

 

[midasmulligan]

I'll watch his video another day, but saw when I clicked it it's 43 or 48 minutes.

Good to see Joe not hold back. I skipped right to the end and saw the 6/10 and how disappointed he was.

Whereas other web sites are happy to get free swag and early copies so they post a review at midnight ASAP, Joe takes his time. Game came out almost two weeks ago. The other 100 websites whose goal is to get as many early clicks as possible can learn a thing or too about reviewing media.

And they were posting *half* reviews, “trust us, we can’t say anything about the 2nd half of the game, but it’s a 10 out of 10!!” Like wtf

 

[GribbleGrunger]

And they were posting *half* reviews, “trust us, we can’t say anything about the 2nd half of the game, but it’s a 10 out of 10!!” Like wtf

Not being able to talk about the second half of the game doesn't negate a score based on the entirety of the experience. I give it a 4/10 and that's based on the entirety. Whether I was allowed to say anything about the second half or not wouldn't change my score.

 

[GymWolf]

lol his reaction to the sex scene is something that i can expect from a 10 years old boy not a grown ass man

 

[Roman Empire]

I'm here just see the zombie, hobby, and sora avatar guy derailing the thread.

 

[thelastword]

You know what's strange about forums and reviewers these days, every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

In truth people want the same story, feed them the same goop, don't deviate. Handsome guy/Handsome gal is the starboy, something shitty happens to him or family, he bulks up and saves the world against all odds. Don't forget the handsome guys bangs many hot members of the opposite sex along the way for a pull...... Boring, we've seen this a million times over in film and literary writings since eternal. Doesn't mean that's how life always works and pan out, In many instances in this world, the good guys never finishes first. It's just the world works. Many pretty girls just don't have the mental fortitude to do what Ellie and Abby does, they are readily breaking down when they lose subscriptions off twitter and instagram and go through mental breakdowns because of it and even some want to call it quits for a few struggles in life, financial or even relationship wise. People just have a false sense of reality sometimes. So you think because you are pretty that you would not have relationship issues, that everyone will kiss your tail and that life would be a fairy tale?

I think people have no idea what a good story is. A good story to them is one that is fantastical and has a good warm ending to comfort their own biases and sense of how they'd ideally want life to be or how they were inculcated that it be....l think some people would balk as what is shown at the short film festivals. Theatre and story telling is not the ideal hobby for the close-minded with pre-conceived biases...So people going overboard on story in games and how this one is different and showing different angles, need to get a grip on reality, it's not all about you......You can play the game for the great gameplay and not be so hamstrung on some of the moral choices or character look/appearances in the game...

 

[Dontero]

The Last of US 2 fans reminds me those of Final Fantasy XV.
Same garbage pacing and writing and fans trying to explain that this is very deep and immersive or something.

Player somehow should care about Luna despite the fact that she literally wasn't in the game up until that scene and there was nothing between mc and her. IF you would play along side her for 3/4 of game then that scene would make sense. Instead like in TLOU2 it doesn't because you don't care about chracters involved.

If they wanted to make Abby work they would have to first give player thing to care about her BEFORE killing Joel. If you kill Joel then nothing after it will "recover" player percepcion of that character.

Giving it 6/10 imho is already to much. TLOU2 is virtual movie. You don't give movie with shitty plot 6/10 but something like 4/10.

 

[Birdo]

every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

Really silly argument. For instance, you don't need to be a musician to know the difference between a well written song or a bad one.

Besides. Art is subjective.

 

[rofif]

You know what's strange about forums and reviewers these days, every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

In truth people want the same story, feed them the same goop, don't deviate. Handsome guy/Handsome gal is the starboy, something shitty happens to him or family, he bulks up and saves the world against all odds. Don't forget the handsome guys bangs many hot members of the opposite sex along the way for a pull...... Boring, we've seen this a million times over in film and literary writings since eternal. Doesn't mean that's how life always works and pan out, In many instances in this world, the good guys never finishes first. It's just the world works. Many pretty girls just don't have the mental fortitude to do what Ellie and Abby does, they are readily breaking down when they lose subscriptions off twitter and instagram and go through mental breakdowns because of it and even some want to call it quits for a few struggles in life, financial or even relationship wise. People just have a false sense of reality sometimes. So you think because you are pretty that you would not have relationship issues, that everyone will kiss your tail and that life would be a fairy tale?

I think people have no idea what a good story is. A good story to them is one that is fantastical and has a good warm ending to comfort their own biases and sense of how they'd ideally want life to be or how they were inculcated that it be....l think some people would balk as what is shown at the short film festivals. Theatre and story telling is not the ideal hobby for the close-minded with pre-conceived biases...So people going overboard on story in games and how this one is different and showing different angles, need to get a grip on reality, it's not all about you......You can play the game for the great gameplay and not be so hamstrung on some of the moral choices or character look/appearances in the game...

The "bad writing" argument being thrown around by some is infuriating. What the hell does that even mean?! Is it a script? a movie? a play? or the characters talk badly? What is good writing? The Last Guardian made me cry... so has it good writing? Yeah, I hate those arguments too.
With TLOU2, I've noticed that the leaks fueled the hate enormously. Even I was fueled by bad leaks for few good hours before I 180 on the game and started loving it

 

[Dontero]

The "bad writing" argument being thrown around by some is infuriating. What the hell does that even mean?! Is it a script? a movie? a play? or the characters talk badly? What is good writing? The Last Guardian made me cry... so has it good writing? Yeah, I hate those arguments too.
With TLOU2, I've noticed that the leaks fueled the hate enormously. Even I was fueled by bad leaks for few good hours before I 180 on the game and started loving it

TLG had good story though. TLOU2 doesn't.

 

[pLow7]

TLG had good story though. TLOU2 doesn't.

That's your opninion, which is shit btw, but it's your opinion and i respect that.

 

[Dontero]

That's your opninion, which is shit btw, but it's your opinion and i respect that.

I am glad your butthurt over that is pretty juicy.

 

[pLow7]

I am glad your butthurt over that is pretty juicy.

k

 

[interactivemonodrama]

amazing review from Joe 10/10

 

[Mista]

I know you guys will look for confirmation bias anywhere you can find it but you can't really respect Joe as a critic can you?

I don’t. He gave the first game a full score though and nobody said anything about that

So now that he didn’t like the sequel we should question him?

 

[Saruhashi]

You know what's strange about forums and reviewers these days, every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

Whatever dude.
I'd guess over my lifetime I have watched hundreds, if not thousands, of movies.
Same with books.

Since my late teens I've been deeply discussing these things with my buddies, family, wife, exes, folk online etc.
So, yeah, I trust myself to judge what's good and what's bad IN MY OPINION.

I also trust myself to judge the objective parts of storytelling, movie making etc.

Your stance on this makes no sense.
If I go to a pizza place and they serve up an crappy undercooked pizza made with inferior ingredients then I can't say shit because I'm not a chef?
Get the fuck out of here with that.

It's the worst kind of defense from criticism.

I don't need to be a professional footballer to judge that Liverpool are better than Everton.
I don't need to be a professional chef to judge whether or not the meal I just ate was good or not.
I don't need to be a Noble prize winning writer to see the flaws in someone else's story.

LOL. I've heard it all now.
You'd better have your a Nobel prize under your belt before you DARE criticize the world class writing of Naughty Dog.
Piss off.

 

[evanft]

Because for Ellie by that point its about not living in fear as much as anything. She "beats" Aby, as in has her at her mercy at the point of death, she finally is taking control back.

Which if you think about it is exactly the same issue that caused her falling out with Joel.

At which point suddenly the awful cost of this whole sequence of events comes rushing in, and showing mercy is the only way to salvage anything from this long nightmare.

This is a fantastic post and actually shows a semblance of though into analyzing the game.

Meh, this review is poorly reasoned. I loved the game, so call me bias I guess, but I have actively sought out criticism and I’ve actually found a few that are reasonable and fair that make good points against it (even if i ultimately disagree with them) this is one of the worst ones i’ve seen from a “professional” reviewer. Sounds like the ramblings of a confident but stupid middle-schooler.

Ironic he’s gonna discredit the game for lazy writing when this review itself is incredibly lazily written.

What I’ve noticed is my friends more interested in art film adjacent stuff have loved TLOUII but my friends who are more interested in like Marvel-style blockbuster movies have hated it. Not saying any group is better than the other but I can see how if you’re in the latter group (a group I would also put Joe into) and not used to narratives challenging you, I could see how the writing would come off as “bad.” TLOU1 rode a fine line between art game narrative and action game narrative but TLOUII leans way more into art game narrative, which explains the division of opinion in my eyes.

I think when something unusual or challenging happens in a narrative, like trying to seriously challenge the notion of heroes and villain, or killing off a major character in a brutal way, it makes the action Marvel-fed crowd feel odd emotions they’re not used to confronting when enjoying entertainment and they default to thinking it’s poorly made because they’re uncomfortable.

I’ll definitely engage in someone’s opinion on the supposed “bad writing” but Joe’s argument in this video is not good. From others i’ve seen lots of little nitpicks, (people often overuse the word plot hole in these instances) some of which have varying levels of credibility but none i’ve been have been so egregious to ruin the game. You can nitpick anything in that way, but it’s generally reserved for people who generally didn’t like something overall but are bad at articulating specifically why so they default to talking about little things that don’t really matter much.

The Marvel comparison is spot on. TLOU2 goads you into feeling a certain way and then uses those emotions against you later in the game.

I can give a few examples, if you'd like. I'll put them in spoilers just in case.

One of his criticisms is that the ending was just to subvert expectations and they didn't give us the payoff which we were owed. This shows that he completely missed key points of the game. Ellie is at odds with herself the entire way through, she's trying to find reasons to fulfill what she feels like she owes Joel (which is evident when she insists on Abby fighting her instead of just killing Abby at the pillar). This was never building to a satisfying "gotcha" revenge payoff, the game spent the vast majority of its runtime doing the exact opposite.

Another criticism he had is that characters had plot armor. He used the example of how Abby didn't kill Ellie and Tommy. Yet he didn't bother to mention that Abby was raised to be a "good" person by her father. She has a conscience and is in conflict with herself. This isn't to say that she's a good person, but it's clear why she decides not to kill them.

Contrast that with other videos which criticize parts of the game while doing their due diligence to analyze the story. That's what I expect from professional reviews.

100% this right here. So many of the criticisms just come off as lazy.

 

[rofif]

TLG had good story though. TLOU2 doesn't.

TLG had no story, it had character.
TLOU2 has great story and great characters.

 

[midasmulligan]

Not being able to talk about the second half of the game doesn't negate a score based on the entirety of the experience. I give it a 4/10 and that's based on the entirety. Whether I was allowed to say anything about the second half or not wouldn't change my score.

Wouldn’t change your score, certainly, but would make the justification of said score opaque to the consumer and difficult to determine if the is for them or not.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Wouldn’t change your score, certainly, but would make the justification of said score opaque to the consumer and difficult to determine if the is for them or not.

That's a difficult one though, isn't it. The 'surprise' IS the thrust of the second half. Even mentioning the second half, playing as Abby, would completely ruin that surprise. It just so happened to turn out that they wrote the story all wrong, making the second half of the game impossible to enjoy, but in essence, I can fully understand why they wouldn't want to give it away. However, having now played it, I can't help but think, baring in mind that Neil said it would be divisive, there was some degree of hiding what he suspected may have been a mistake. In essence I think it was OK but only if the payoff warranted it. It didn't.

 

[Zoro7]

Really disappointed with what I'm hearing about the story.
The story is what pulled me into the first game.

 

[Clear]

The Marvel comparison is spot on. TLOU2 goads you into feeling a certain way and then uses those emotions against you later in the game.

If only anything Marvel have ever put forth was as creatively daring and confrontational as TLOU2!

If nothing else TLOU2 is unequivocally not a franchising exercise.

 

[namekuseijin]

I know you guys will look for confirmation bias anywhere you can find it but you can't really respect Joe as a critic can you?

he's such a lame copycat of Angry Videogame Nerd

still, anyone who puts the right nails in the coffin that is TLOU2 gets my respect. Specially cancelled ones.

 

[Paasei]

I personally enjoyed the game quite a lot. Then again, I didn't pay too much attention to the writing itself as he/they did.

It's not a 10/10 game for me, either, but I sure liked it nonetheless. Just in case I spoiler tagged the ending and my thoughts.

Spoiler

Abby is a cool character, but I have to admit that it took me some gaming minutes to get there.

My understanding of the ending is, is that going on about hate and revenge will serve you nothing in the end. In fact you lose more than you gain. But still, that last fight was quite unnecessary considering it didn't really have any conclusion.

 

[Rathalos]

I'm not sure why he was so angry about Abby getting fucked, I guess it's an American thing? It didn't register as important at all to me, I just thought her peck titties looked weird.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Really disappointed with what I'm hearing about the story.
The story is what pulled me into the first game.

Have you played Day's Gone? If you haven't, it's overall a much better game.

 

[sonomamashine]

You know what's strange about forums and reviewers these days, every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

You clearly ghost wrote The Great Gatsby & have a impeccable taste, i don't have to be a professional car racer to know that a lamborghini gonna smoke a prius.
Anyway expected nothing less from you.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Still shit story telling for cheap shock value, all for the purpose of saying "HAHA SEEE she is a good person"! The game tries so hard to make you like her. Look! Abby is good to dogs, she plays fetch! You should feel bad we made you kill a dog!

Did you play it? Lol

 

[Croatoan]

Hey guys, look, it's a Suicide Squad fan telling us what good writing is.

I love that you are so ass mad. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Enjoy your shit game.

 

[scalman]

garbage moves are just garbage , like new mel gibson movie force of nature doesnt matter who acts in it its so poorly made and acted, same with games if its bad if its poor story it would feel right away and not drag you in , so why then it dragged so many people in and it was so good, like for me, maybe because i dont look at it as joel killing game or joel story game its not joel game or ellier games they can go the ways they want with it , so if you not looking at this game like this its no point even look or try it , abby i hated it at beggining sure so much and didint wanted to play as her , because i didint knew her part, but then i learned... and its grew on me. because it wasnt looking at it anymore as : anyone who killed joel must die type of game. its very good most times and in all it gives even more emotions for me.
but its done. i got back to division 2 , in some ways its very similar running and looting everything, shooting bad guys.
and TLOU2 i was playing no shooting no smashing noone , most no shooting guns at all just stealth and bow. completely opposite as joe and friend where playing game. and i think you cant enjoy this game with other people arround , its just impossible. you alone game and best darkness and no noises around nothing just game, thats how its need to be played, i tried to play it when other humans where in same room and it didint worked , so i stopped. no point.
and hope more games will take risks and wont go all good and nice way as most wants to. then its more shocking and more interesting games. just safe games can be boring everybody doing safe games these days. we need more risk taking.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Based on his review, I guess you can say that AngryJoe...


[puts on shades]


...got angry.

 

[Clear]

Have you played Day's Gone? If you haven't, it's overall a much better game.

Its more fun, for sure. And way underrated especially in terms of character/dialogue.

That being said, I stand by my opinion that TLOU2 isn't actually badly written, it just sets itself up to try and pull off a really difficult dramatic trick and I think its execution of that is flawed in a number of key areas.

For some people these flaws are total deal-breakers it seems, others seem to not be bothered by them at all. Myself I'm somewhere in the middle and fortunately appreciate the effort and intent, even if I disagree with many creative choices in the telling.

Also, there are so many good things I can point out in TLOU2 that even accepting that the plot and pacing are less effective than the original, in every other respect its a very worthy sequel.

Its a great talking-point game too.

 

[LostDonkey]

Just watched the review, pretty much how it came across in his streams although the final score was a touch lower than I thought he would go. He even says it would have been a 5/10 if not for the presentation.

Still not interested in paying money for it but I may try the inevitable PS5 remaster when it comes to PS+ like I did with the first game.

 

[sobaka770]

garbage moves are just garbage , like new mel gibson movie force of nature doesnt matter who acts in it its so poorly made and acted, same with games if its bad if its poor story it would feel right away and not drag you in , so why then it dragged so many people in and it was so good, like for me, maybe because i dont look at it as joel killing game or joel story game its not joel game or ellier games they can go the ways they want with it , so if you not looking at this game like this its no point even look or try it , abby i hated it at beggining sure so much and didint wanted to play as her , because i didint knew her part, but then i learned... and its grew on me. because it wasnt looking at it anymore as : anyone who killed joel must die type of game. its very good most times and in all it gives even more emotions for me.
but its done. i got back to division 2 , in some ways its very similar running and looting everything, shooting bad guys.
and TLOU2 i was playing no shooting no smashing noone , most no shooting guns at all just stealth and bow. completely opposite as joe and friend where playing game. and i think you cant enjoy this game with other people arround , its just impossible. you alone game and best darkness and no noises around nothing just game, thats how its need to be played, i tried to play it when other humans where in same room and it didint worked , so i stopped. no point.
and hope more games will take risks and wont go all good and nice way as most wants to. then its more shocking and more interesting games. just safe games can be boring everybody doing safe games these days. we need more risk taking.

I agree, the two things that really muddled the waters were:
- Spoilers - totally ruined any sensible discussion and added an unjust layer of vitriol before the release. How do you do impartial judgement when media analysis of leaks was almost impossible to avoid?
- People expecting a romp like TLOU and instead getting a harsh drama - not a party game.

I wouldn't enjoy it if I wasn't 100% immersed and alone with it with limited spoilers.

PS. Now I really wanna see that Suicide Squad review from AJ.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

The "bad writing" argument being thrown around by some is infuriating. What the hell does that even mean?! Is it a script? a movie? a play? or the characters talk badly? What is good writing? The Last Guardian made me cry... so has it good writing? Yeah, I hate those arguments too.
With TLOU2, I've noticed that the leaks fueled the hate enormously. Even I was fueled by bad leaks for few good hours before I 180 on the game and started loving it

It is about the convenience of certain things in the story, plot armor to advance characters further in the story, and how a certain beloved character was used as a simple plot device.

Also that characters from the first game feel disconnected from the second.

 

[rofif]

It is about the convenience of certain things in the story, plot armor to advance characters further in the story, and how a certain beloved character was used as a simple plot device.

Also that characters from the first game feel disconnected from the second.

There must be some conveniences because no story would ever happen. Look at it like that - You are not following random person on planet and see what happens to him. You are following a person that is in that plane crash and what leads to it for example. Then the plane crash is not a coincidence but a perspective.

And I do not feel and disconnect of characters from first game. Ellie was 14... Are You the same as when You were 14?
And Joel is older, he calmed down and relaxed. He is not an asshole he was 4 years ago because it is not 4 years ago.

 

[TTOOLL]

Fair criticism without relying too much on bashing Allie alone. The story is really bad.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Naughty Dog does what they always do and spit out AAA games.

 

[ZywyPL]

You know what's strange about forums and reviewers these days, every forum goer and reviewer is an expert on writing and story. I'm surprised that many here have not written their 100th masterpiece and have received their Nobel prize for literature and theatrical arts.

In truth people want the same story, feed them the same goop, don't deviate. Handsome guy/Handsome gal is the starboy, something shitty happens to him or family, he bulks up and saves the world against all odds. Don't forget the handsome guys bangs many hot members of the opposite sex along the way for a pull...... Boring, we've seen this a million times over in film and literary writings since eternal. Doesn't mean that's how life always works and pan out, In many instances in this world, the good guys never finishes first. It's just the world works. Many pretty girls just don't have the mental fortitude to do what Ellie and Abby does, they are readily breaking down when they lose subscriptions off twitter and instagram and go through mental breakdowns because of it and even some want to call it quits for a few struggles in life, financial or even relationship wise. People just have a false sense of reality sometimes. So you think because you are pretty that you would not have relationship issues, that everyone will kiss your tail and that life would be a fairy tale?

I think people have no idea what a good story is. A good story to them is one that is fantastical and has a good warm ending to comfort their own biases and sense of how they'd ideally want life to be or how they were inculcated that it be....l think some people would balk as what is shown at the short film festivals. Theatre and story telling is not the ideal hobby for the close-minded with pre-conceived biases...So people going overboard on story in games and how this one is different and showing different angles, need to get a grip on reality, it's not all about you......You can play the game for the great gameplay and not be so hamstrung on some of the moral choices or character look/appearances in the game...

You summed it up perfectly. Now accept it.

 

[Birdo]

Naughty Dog does what they always do and spit out AAA games.

 

[MiguelItUp]

As expected the TLOU2 defense force is in full storm in this thread, liking eachother's comments, shitting on others with a different opinion, etc. Y'all need to chill. You can enjoy the game, just like others can not enjoy the game. It's normal to have opinions, no one is wrong in the ones they have.

If you don't like Angry Joe, that's one thing. Dude is a YouTuber that has a schtick that isn't for everyone. But why even bother watching if you already despise the guy? Doubt you're gonna walk away feeling any different about him.

I agree with a lot that he has said, but at this point it's just an echo chamber of everything that's already been said. Happy for those that enjoyed the entire product 100% or close to it. But I'm not in that party, personally.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

There must be some conveniences because no story would ever happen. Look at it like that - You are not following random person on planet and see what happens to him. You are following a person that is in that plane crash and what leads to it for example. Then the plane crash is not a coincidence but a perspective.

And I do not feel and disconnect of characters from first game. Ellie was 14... Are You the same as when You were 14?
And Joel is older, he calmed down and relaxed. He is not an asshole he was 4 years ago because it is not 4 years ago.

I'd argue that the "plane crash" isn't the coincidence.

Rather that the plane crashing where it does. On top of that lost city you've been searching your whole life for and you just decided moments ago no one could ever find.

 

[MadchesterManc]

If folk didn't put Naughty Dog on an untouchable pedestal they would find it easier to deal with these criticisms.

 

[GymWolf]

Have you played Day's Gone? If you haven't, it's overall a much better game.

Days gone with the acting, animation and combat of tlou2 would be almost perfect.

 

[Strategize]

As expected the TLOU2 defense force is in full storm in this thread, liking eachother's comments, shitting on others with a different opinion, etc. Y'all need to chill. You can enjoy the game, just like others can not enjoy the game. It's normal to have opinions, no one is wrong in the ones they have.

If you don't like Angry Joe, that's one thing. Dude is a YouTuber that has a schtick that isn't for everyone. But why even bother watching if you already despise the guy? Doubt you're gonna walk away feeling any different about him.

I agree with a lot that he has said, but at this point it's just an echo chamber of everything that's already been said. Happy for those that enjoyed the entire product 100% or close to it. But I'm not in that party, personally.

I've seen a bunch of valid criticism from much better reviewers. Unfortunately, a large portion of this review isn't since he's flat out creating alot flaws that aren't there, it has nothing to do with opinions at that point.

As a result the review comes across as bratty, and considering some of the clips of his twitch playthrough I've see thrown around well...it looks like the review was pretty watered down in comparison. But, to be fair it's certainly not the first time of seen "brattiness" surrounding this game's discourse, and it certainly won't be the last.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Good stuff. Angry Joe is one of the best reviewers out there.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Its more fun, for sure. And way underrated especially in terms of character/dialogue.

That being said, I stand by my opinion that TLOU2 isn't actually badly written, it just sets itself up to try and pull off a really difficult dramatic trick and I think its execution of that is flawed in a number of key areas.

For some people these flaws are total deal-breakers it seems, others seem to not be bothered by them at all. Myself I'm somewhere in the middle and fortunately appreciate the effort and intent, even if I disagree with many creative choices in the telling.

Also, there are so many good things I can point out in TLOU2 that even accepting that the plot and pacing are less effective than the original, in every other respect its a very worthy sequel.

Its a great talking-point game too.

It's just put together all wrong and misses every emotional beat, which then needed it to put in 'reminders' constantly to give pseudo depth to characters. Take a look at ANY scene from the first game ... literally ANY, and compare the quality of writing and the weight of the narrative. It's night and day. TLOU felt like a good film and this felt like a second rate TV series. None of the characters evolved and the only conflict was two dimensional. The snowball fight should have been cut. The guitar sections should have been cut. Much of the chatter should have been cut. You can't expect to have a character kill the main character and then try and justify it whilst playing the character that just killed the main character.:

Scene 1: We begin with Joel talking to Tommy and then we ride into Jackson. Joel gets off his horse, we get the cutscene but then we're still in control of Joel. He meets Ellie and they talk about going out scouting the following day, Joel mentioning that if they have time, he's got something to show Ellie.

Scene 2: We continue playing as Joel. They scout about, clearing some areas and eventually we arrive at the space shuttle section. It plays out as it did but we've been playing Joel. Now we are fully engaged in Joel again, having younger Ellie do her stuff has reminded us of the first game (nostalgia/satisfaction/)

Scene 3: Ellie leaves on a scouting mission with Dina. We also see Tommy and Joel leave on a scouting mission. Joel acknowledges Ellie and tells her to be careful. Dina is a bitch. Cold, offensive, not fun to be around. They go through the same gameplay but the dialogue is taut and awkward, some back and forth about Joel being too smothering. They arrive at the weed plant, find some weed, light some up. CUT. No sex scene. That comes later.

Scene 4: Now we play as Joel again, scouting with Tommy. A reasonably lengthy scene around the same time as Ellie's playtime. The scene ends when they come across a location with lots of infected trying to break down a fence and see a person (Abby) trying to survive. A bit of conversation with Tommy to explain why the two of them would help. End scene. Cut.

Scene 5: Abby. Now we play as Abby (minus the father scene) to the section we first play and then onto the fence scene where Joel rescues her. We have no idea she's about to kill Joel. We've got to know her and have no reason to dislike her, thus making her sections enjoyable and fresh. We continue as it played out in the game but this time Joel is grabbed at the gates and forced into the room the murder takes place. Tommy has been knocked out and tied. Someone else is also tied up and dead in that room. Dina's brother, beaten up and questioned about Joel's whereabouts. That's what is inferred. Maybe a conversion implying that. The scene of Joel's death plays out as it did in the game.

Scene 6: Ellie's scene also plays out as it had in the game.

Scene 7: Back at camp, Dina has been told about the death of her brother and Ellie begins preparation for her journey to Seattle and revenge. Dina insists on coming too. Ellie is getting dark, really dark. Nothing in the Seattle section is played 'lightly'. She begins hearing Joel's voice, seeing him in the corner of her eyes and slowly loses it until she's got full blown psychosis. Ellie and Dina survive though, Dina refocusing Ellie with hard truth and Ellie bringing out some compassion from the bitch Dina. The end of that section, before we play as Dina again, is the love scene between Ellie and Dina.

Scene 8: Cut to Dina and her father saving a giraffe which continue on to the father getting shot scene.

It's rough and would need lots of work but that would be much better. The rest needs work too but this would have sorted out a good two thirds of the game.