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[PeteBull]

Instead of pointless arguing i rather present some official data, they arent super fresh but i bet many ppl didnt see them yet, its about tmsc and its process nodes.
5nm from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nm_process
3nm from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_nm_process
And even cooler/more comprehensive- tmsc roadmap and actual detailed improvements on upcoming nodes https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/tsmc-lays-out-a-killer-roadmap-2023-05/

Now as we can see, apple could make their new iphone's chip on 3nm process node and launch it in september2023, but looks like sony cant use that node, hell it opted for only 6nm node for their ps5 "slim" https://videocardz.com/newz/playsta...-show-changes-to-cooling-and-the-same-6nm-soc
So again- we gotta be realistic here, new ps5pr0 wont be made on 3nm like superexpensive new apple phone that has tiny die size, unfortunately.

And bigger/older/worse node means smaller gainz in performance and power needed, aka it wont be that much different from currently avaiable 5nm that amd's 7900xtx, 7900xt, 7800xt and 7700xt cards are made on.

 

[shamoomoo]

Not in raw grunt of course we mean in select titles with great optimization like ps exclusives it performing there in raster specifically wouldn’t be that ridiculous

Yeah, assuming the clock speed of the Pros GPU 2.5 GHz with 96 ROPs and 240TMUs,the RTX 4080 would have almost a 40% advantage in texturing fill-rate and 28% in ROPs if the 4080 is clocked abit over 2.7GHz.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

In Sony's defense, I don't think they anticipated for third-party games to have such massive cuts in resolution. Sony's first-party titles generally don't have much of a problem with this, often having resolution in Performance Mode being 1440p and Quality Mode 1800p-2160p. They could do without reconstruction and still look good.

It's when you see games such as Jedi Survivor that drop to ~600p in Performance Mode that makes you scratch your head. Horizon Zero Dawn is 1920x2160 on the PS4 Pro. You'd think with the much more advanced and powerful PS5, games could look substantially better at a significantly higher resolution (1440p+) but we're in a weird world where games do look better but at a much, much lower native resolution.

I'm unsure if developers just aren't as good as they used to be (a premise I've seen posited by industry insiders) or that it would have been just as bad with the previous generation had the CPUs been up to snuff and capable of 60fps and above.

Honestly, I think its the former. They just aren't as good anymore. Or they are lazier. Cause the latter would suggest that the reason we have games running at 600p is due to a CPU bottleneck, but we know that's not the case when you consider that those games don't even run at a locked 1440p at 30fps. Devs have just used reconstruction and DRS as a catch-all for poor optimization.

Furthermore, we have sony first party. That at least shows us what is actually possible on the hardware. Take HZFW for instance, you will be hard-pressed to find a better-looking game from third parties than that and that game performs better than them on all fronts. If anyone ever needed proof that the problem is the devs, then there it is.

And this si whyt I previously said sony/MS should have enforced some "standards" that games have to hit to even be certified for release. Eg. Performance mode cannot run at lower than 1080p internally. Or that Quality mode must have a 4K output, be that native or using reconstruction....etc.

Just one thing to consider. The advantage that modern upscalers have today is that they are based on temporal information.
Spatial upscalers are very limited in comparison. Things like DLSS1, FSR1, Lazcos, NIS, etc, don't hold up.

And in this matter of temporal upscalers, the company that made the big push was EPIC, with TAAU in UE4.19, released in 2018.
It took until 2020 for NVidia to catch up with DLSS 20 and even longer for AMD and Intel.
Today, Epic's TSR is a great solution for upscaling without using AI. Already better than FSR2.2

True, I will give them that, but...

Sony is strange in the sense that they have some studios that already have a decent temporal upscaler. For example, Insomniacs IGTI.
They could have shared the tech with more studios and implemented it in more Sony games.

Exactly!!! This was my but, yh fine we can say that temporal upscaling wasn't really mainstream until Epic did it, but Sony and even Ubisoft had been doing it looooong before that. Guerilla games had CBR on Killzone Shadowfall back in 2013. Hell, the PS4pro was built around CBR so we could say that was the first mainstream temporal renderer. And as you mentioned we have insomniacs TI. It's like this generation is the Wild West of non-standardized rendering tech.

That we don't yet have options for RT lighting middleware for devs to use rather than write their own RT code is evidence of that.

I think AMD had good reason to go for not having dedicated hardware for RT and AI in RDNA2, as this was developed mostly for consoles. And in consoles, die space is at a premium.
Unlike a PC dedicated GPU, a console SoC has to have not only the GPU, but also the CPU, IO controllers, memory controllers, caches, etc.
On Ampere, the AI cores account for ~10% of the chip. And RT cores account for ~25%. This is great for performance, but it takes a lot of space.
Doing this on a PS5 chip would mean the console would have only 5-7TFLOPs. So it makes sense to have a hybrid solution for consoles.
What doesn't make sense, is that RDNA3 is doing the same thing. RT is still being done in the TMUs and AI is still being done in the shaders.
Yes, there are new instructions for both cases, that improve performance. But it's nowhere as good in performance and efficiency as the dedicated units that Intel and Nvidia have.
From the rumors we have, RDNA4 will fix these things, but AMD is lagging a lot.

Yup, I can see this being the case, and I could even understand it, if AMD is wasn't lagging so much. I mean I get it, they don't have to be the best at everything, they can suck at one... but how can they be so far behind in both RT and reconstruction? The only thing they have to boast right now is on raster performance, which has already reached the point of diminishing returns like polygons and sprites before it.

Intel does have a huge problem with their drivers and shader efficiency.
Just consider that the A770 has 20 TFLOPs of compute, slightly lower than a 6800XT. But it performs closer to a 6600XT.
The A770 has a die size of 406 mm² on N6. Compared to a 6800XT that has a die size of 520 mm², on N7, but doesn't use the full chip.
So Intel has a good chunk of catching up to do with Battlemage.

In Intel's defence, this was their first foray into discrete GPUs? I think... we can excuse them for their less-than-stellar drivers when even AMD still can't get that shit right and they have been doing this shit for almost 3 decades.

 

[winjer]

Yup, I can see this being the case, and I could even understand it, if AMD is wasn't lagging so much. I mean I get it, they don't have to be the best at everything, they can suck at one... but how can they be so far behind in both RT and reconstruction? The only thing they have to boast right now is on raster performance, which has already reached the point of diminishing returns like polygons and sprites before it.

AMD was almost bankrupt just a little over half a decade ago. They even had to sell their own headquarters, then lease it back, so they could have some money to run the company a bit longer.
Bulldozer was a massive failure and the foundry part was a sinking ship. Eventually, they managed to create Zen, which was a decent success. And most important, they were able to get rid of the foundry and keep the license for X86.
The GPU side was doing well. The 5000, 6000 and 7000 series of GPUs were very competitive against nvidia's GTX 400, 500 and 600 series.
And they even managed to catch the contacts for the SoC for the PS4 and Xbox One.
But the financial woes were really big, and dragged everything down, as the company was struggling to stay afloat. And this meant that the R&D budgets for the Radeon group were getting smaller. It's also the time when their drivers really started to suffer.
And unlike Intel, NVidia never took the foot off the accelerator.
It also didn't help that DX12 took many years to become the standard. And it also didn't help that when it came to the DX12 Ultimate specs, they lost and had to rework their GPUs to conform to a different standard.

In Intel's defence, this was their first foray into discrete GPUs? I think... we can excuse them for their less-than-stellar drivers when even AMD still can't get that shit right and they have been doing this shit for almost 3 decades.

Intel has been in the GPU market for over 3 decades. They are the biggest seller of GPUs, thanks to their integrated solutions.
It's not like Arch is their first GPU architecture. Far from it.
Even if we consider that their iGPs weren't really focused in gaming, their Arch drivers had issues even outside of games.

I have been using GPUs on PC, since the TNT2. I have used almost a GPU from every generation. About 2/3 were from nvidia and 1/3 were from AMD. Unfortunately, I never had a 3Dfx card.
But I can tell you that the discourse about the bad Radeon drivers were vastly overstated. For the most part, they were both stable. Although nvidia was a bit faster with performance improvements.
I guess the point when AMD's drivers got significantly worse, was during the last decade, when their budget was extremely low.
But recently, AMD's drivers have improved a lot. I have now a 6800XT and it's working very well. In terms of bugs and issues, it's probably doing slightly better than the 2070S I had before.
My fear is that AMD might ignore the Radeon group again, now that everyone is focusing on AI.
AMD hasn't said they are no longer a GPU company, like NVidia did recently. But I bet that AI now is first, followed by CPUs and in last place, gaming GPUs.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Intel has been in the GPU market for over 3 decades. They are the biggest seller of GPUs, thanks to their integrated solutions.
It's not like Arch is their first GPU architecture. Far from it.
Even if we consider that their iGPs weren't really focused in gaming, their Arch drivers had issues even outside of games.

I know, was specifically referring to discrete GPUs.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

At this point why does shit have to “leak?” Just put the specs out there. Why make people try to read the tea leaves, just put it out. Keeping it a secret makes you look embarrassed or something.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

At this point why does shit have to “leak?” Just put the specs out there. Why make people try to read the tea leaves, just put it out. Keeping it a secret makes you look embarrassed or something.

Its been my biggest complaint with Sony as of late, its like they are guarding nuclear launch codes

But then again if you talk too much (Phil Spencer) then people hate you for that

 

[Gaiff]

Its been my biggest complaint with Sony as of late, its like they are guarding nuclear launch codes

But then again if you talk too much (Phil Spencer) then people hate you for that

Aren't the specs not finalized anyway? As far as I'm aware, major changes can occur 2-3 months before the launch and we're about 9-12 months away. Specs are subject to change at this point in the game.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Aren't the specs not finalized anyway? As far as I'm aware, major changes can occur 2-3 months before the launch and we're about 9-12 months away. Specs are subject to change at this point in the game.

Well above my paygrade if they can change specs at this point but with devkits being out there I wouldn't mind Sony (even at CES say) give us an official hint its coming

They don't have to give specs at this point

And I know people say they don't want to hurt sales of the current PS5 but the only ones it may hurt are us enthusiasts that are on these forums and haven't bought a PS5 yet

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Aren't the specs not finalized anyway? As far as I'm aware, major changes can occur 2-3 months before the launch and we're about 9-12 months away. Specs are subject to change at this point in the game.

The specs of the most import things (e.g. APU/RAM) will be long since final with the dev kits out since likely late Summer in case of Sony FP. Just check out the leaked PDF of PS4 Pro from March 2016 where Sony state clearly the specs are final.

Can't see that being any different now unless something big goes wrong.

 

[Gaiff]

The specs of the most import things (e.g. APU/RAM) will be long since final with the dev kits out since likely late Summer in case of Sony FP. Just check out the leaked PDF of PS4 Pro from March 2016 where Sony state clearly the specs are final.

Can't see that being any different now unless something big goes wrong.

As I recall, PS4 upgraded the VRAM from 4GB to 8GB fairly late into the development, no? It was about something about DRAM prices dropping fast and Sony realizing that they could meet their target price even with 8GB.

 

[winjer]

Aren't the specs not finalized anyway? As far as I'm aware, major changes can occur 2-3 months before the launch and we're about 9-12 months away. Specs are subject to change at this point in the game.

Not for the SoC.
Even after the design is done, it's still necessary to go trough testing and validation in software.
If it passes then they can make the firsts masks. Then using those, they can receive the first chips and test if they actually work.
And if all that goes well, then they can start mass production. And even then, it will take months to get enough chips inventory, to then start assembling the console.

Things that can be tweaked on the SoC, would be clock speeds and maybe how much binning of the chip is done, depending of ho good or bad are the yields.

 

[rsouzadk]

Okay lets not go into the other extreme matching a 3080 isn't some lofty crazy expectation and is hardly being optimistic as hell, it would be the bare minimum performance delta requirement to justify the pro console. That being said even close to matching a 4080 in raster even with dedicated optimization is simply not a believable scenario.

3080/4070 are about the same performance.

 

[winjer]

As I recall, PS4 upgraded the VRAM from 4GB to 8GB fairly late into the development, no? It was about something about DRAM prices dropping fast and Sony realizing that they could meet their target price even with 8GB.

Both Sony and MS were targeting 8GB for that generation. But there there weren't GDDR5 chips with such density, when the consoles were starting out to be designed.
MS decided to take the safe route and just use DDR3 with a chunk of cache on the SoC.
Sony took a risk and decided to wait for chips to be available. And they got lucky, as those chips were made right on time.
Ina different timeline, the PS4 could have only 4GB, or would have to be delayed some time until those GDDr5 chips were available in quantity.

 

[Gaiff]

Both Sony and MS were targeting 8GB for that generation. But there there weren't GDDR5 chips with such density, when the consoles were starting out to be designed.
MS decided to take the safe route and just use DDR3 with a chunk of cache on the SoC.
Sony took a risk and decided to wait for chips to be available. And they got lucky, as those chips were made right on time.
Ina different timeline, the PS4 could have only 4GB, or would have to be delayed some time until those GDDr5 chips were available in quantity.

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I remember every leak saying 4GB and only a few months leading up to the launch, it was revealed that the PS4 would have 8GB. I don't recall how long before the launch it was but it was certainly a lot less than 9-12 months. Maybe 3-4 months?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

As I recall, PS4 upgraded the VRAM from 4GB to 8GB fairly late into the development, no? It was about something about DRAM prices dropping fast and Sony realizing that they could meet their target price even with 8GB.

A mix of myth and confusion IMO. The Killzone:SF demo used like 5GB of RAM (I'd assume running on a final spec dev kit) so it was just a feel good PR story at best from excited journos looking for a headline!

 

[winjer]

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I remember every leak saying 4GB and only a few months leading up to the launch, it was revealed that the PS4 would have 8GB. I don't recall how long before the launch it was but it was certainly a lot less than 9-12 months. Maybe 3-4 months?

Yes, but in that case it was just a matter of changing the density of the GDDR5 chips. The memory controller, the amount of channels, clock speeds, was all the same or very similar.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Sony just went with 16 of the widely available 4Gb chips in clamshell which had the benefit of giving them a really nice cost-cutting path down the road when the 8Gb chips came out. IIRC that change alone saved them like 20W in power as well as the cost savings of a simpler motherboard. The later PS4 Pro dev kit kept the clamshell setup which meant it had 16GB RAM (possibly to run a PS4 and Pro game at same time for devs? Probably not but interesting just the same).

 

[SABRE220]

3080/4070 are about the same performance.

I know... I used 3080 as the bare minimum expectation for the pro console to showcase a difference and as the point of comparison since its interchangeable with the 4070 while the 4080 was the dreamland pipedream.

 

[vivftp]

At this point why does shit have to “leak?” Just put the specs out there. Why make people try to read the tea leaves, just put it out. Keeping it a secret makes you look embarrassed or something.

This is not an officially announced product yet. The stupidest thing Sony could ever do is officially acknowledge its existence nearly a full year before launch since they still have the base PS5 to sell. Right now these rumors are limited to enthusiast circles and the few sites that choose to report rumors. If Sony officially acknowledges the existence of a Pro then that would spread like wildfire across mainstream channels and would severely hurt sales of the PS5. Given they're currently aiming to hit a record 25 million units this FY, I think you can imagine why they wouldn't want to give folks a reason to hold off on buying a PS5 right now. Plain and simple, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot for no good reason other than to satisfy a few impatient enthusiasts.

It's why the PS4 Pro wasn't officially announced until 2 months before its launch. It's highly probable that Sony will follow a similar pattern and wait until September to officially unveil the PS5 Pro.

 

[Moridianae]

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but does anyone else feel(though I'm excited for a Pro for certain games like BG3 that could use that extra power) that both XSX and PS5 haven't had their current iterations truly punching at their potential?

XSX is due to the parity thing with XSS, which just wasn't the best idea.

I mean-- but the difference between what was initially on PS2/PS3/PS4 and in later years was very apparent.

I don't know that I've seen that level of push this time and we're heading into Year 4.

I'm excited for the Pro and I hope that it gives the bonuses we hope for.

 

[Crayon]

Cerny
Crayon

Both start with a C. Coincidence? I think not. But also yes.

He wears glasses. I don't. Debunked.

 

[Kazekage1981]

is there such a thing as Zen2+?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

is there such a thing as Zen2+?

It's zen fluid

 

[shamoomoo]

It's zen fluid

That sounds freaky, I'm in.

 

[winjer]

is there such a thing as Zen2+?

No.

 

[SlimySnake]

Its been my biggest complaint with Sony as of late, its like they are guarding nuclear launch codes

But then again if you talk too much (Phil Spencer) then people hate you for that

This is a new console that wont launch for another 10 months. There is no reason to announce it so early and kill the sales of the OG console. MS did exactly this and that is when sales slowed down to a crawl.

Sony revealed the pro six months after it leaked, just a month before launch. thats the best way to do it.

 

[MasterCornholio]

This is a new console that wont launch for another 10 months. There is no reason to announce it so early and kill the sales of the OG console. MS did exactly this and that is when sales slowed down to a crawl.

Sony revealed the pro six months after it leaked, just a month before launch. thats the best way to do it.

Probably because most people don't pay attention to rumors on the Internet. When Sony officially announces something that's when your average consumer is aware of it. Most likely the reason why they wait to reveal anything.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

This is a new console that wont launch for another 10 months. There is no reason to announce it so early and kill the sales of the OG console. MS did exactly this and that is when sales slowed down to a crawl.

Sony revealed the pro six months after it leaked, just a month before launch. thats the best way to do it.

I honestly doubt it would hurt their sales that much to say early on it was coming

The average consumer wont care about a more expensive pro and those of us who do either already have a PS5 or are already waiting on the pro

Just my 2 cents though

 

[SlimySnake]

Honestly, I think its the former. They just aren't as good anymore. Or they are lazier. Cause the latter would suggest that the reason we have games running at 600p is due to a CPU bottleneck, but we know that's not the case when you consider that those games don't even run at a locked 1440p at 30fps. Devs have just used reconstruction and DRS as a catch-all for poor optimization.

Furthermore, we have sony first party. That at least shows us what is actually possible on the hardware. Take HZFW for instance, you will be hard-pressed to find a better-looking game from third parties than that and that game performs better than them on all fronts. If anyone ever needed proof that the problem is the devs, then there it is.

And this si whyt I previously said sony/MS should have enforced some "standards" that games have to hit to even be certified for release. Eg. Performance mode cannot run at lower than 1080p internally. Or that Quality mode must have a 4K output, be that native or using reconstruction....etc.

I dont think its fair to compare next gen games to a last gen game like HFW. Next gen tech like Lumen, ray tracing, nanite have a big overhead on CPUs and GPUs alike. Something HFW doesnt have to deal with along with TLOU1, GOW, Demon Souls, and even GT7 which left out ray tracing from gameplay entirely.

I think these consoles are simply not supposed to do 60 fps for games pushing RT and next gen UE5 features. Star Wars dips to 600p, FF16 and Immortals 720p, but only in their 60 fps modes. In 30 fps, they more or less stay at 1440p like the UE5 demo. Thats where this Pro console comes in and offers a 60 fps mode at those higher 1440p resolutions.

We have already seen Spiderman 2 dip to 1080p in its performance mode which includes ray tracing and nothing else. no RTGI, no RT shadows, no fancy nanite quality visuals. Its a boosted up last gen game like HFW and even that drops to 1080p. What happens when insomniac enables RTGI or upgrades their assets to be more like UE5 assets? 720p for sure.

This is why tflops are so fucking important and why for years on era and on gaf, i hoped against hope that sony would focus on pushing tflops above everything else. sadly, AMD just couldnt give them anything and then ran into tdp limits and the same thing is happening here. At the end of the day, the devs can only do what the GPU allows them to do and 10 tflops is not running RTGI and Lumen at 1440p 60 fps.

I am running Avatar at 4k dlss balanced so 1296p on a GPU roughly 2x more powerful than the PS5 and likely more powerful than the PS5 Pro will be. And thats the most optimized RT game ive played yet. Dont think they are hacks or lazy, the GPU power required for next gen games is simply too high for these consoles to run at 60 fps. devs need to focus on making 30 fps modes far more responsive. FF16 felt great, so did ratchet.

 

[jasondefaoite]

I honestly doubt it would hurt their sales that much to say early on it was coming

The average consumer wont care about a more expensive pro and those of us who do either already have a PS5 or are already waiting on the pro

Just my 2 cents though

I mean we'd all love to know it exists and what the specs are. You doubt it would impact the sales of the PS5 standard much. I don't agree but let's say that is true.

What is the benefit for Sony to announce this product 10 months in advance of shipping anything?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I mean we'd all love to know it exists and what the specs are. You doubt it would impact the sales of the PS5 standard much. I don't agree but let's say that is true.

What is the benefit for Sony to announce this product 10 months in advance of shipping anything?

I am one of those who like following projects that interest me months even years in advance

I love when a game announces way early and give random blog updates which I hope a game like Blade does

Plus with leaker like Tom Henderson hardware like the Pro is the worst kept secret anyhow and I have seen people here on this very forum claim they are waiting for the Pro anyhow

Just opinions

 

[vivftp]

I am one of those who like following projects that interest me months even years in advance

I love when a game announces way early and give random blog updates which I hope a game like Blade does

Plus with leaker like Tom Henderson hardware like the Pro is the worst kept secret anyhow and I have seen people here on this very forum claim they are waiting for the Pro anyhow

Just opinions

Indeed all of us here like to get a peak behind the curtain. We are also an incredibly tiny speck in the grand scheme of thing so taking any action to cater to our wants would not be wise for anyone or any company.

Sony announcing a more powerful PS5 nearly a full year out introduces the worst thing for them - fear, uncertainty and doubt - the unholy trinity that is FUD. Only instead of people with ill intentions using it against them, they'd be doing it to themselves. No one would know what price this console comes in at or what games will look like on it or they might not even know the full specs. All an early announcement would do is shine a spotlight on the current PS5 and cause the general public to ask themselves:

"I was thinking about a PS5, but I heard something better's coming, so why don't I wait to see what that is?"

Their console sales would crater for those many months and they'd have to answer to investors why their performance has suddenly tanked. All for what? They gain no advantage by announcing early - not a single thing.

As for leakers like Tom Henderson, if we're being real then at MOST his leak has maybe spread to what, a few hundred thousand people? Maybe even a million if we're being generous? Sony doing an official announcement would spread to tens of millions of people, if not hundreds of millions.

They'd be wise to follow precisely what they did with the PS4 Pro and announce it 2 months out so folks could get pre-orders in.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but does anyone else feel(though I'm excited for a Pro for certain games like BG3 that could use that extra power) that both XSX and PS5 haven't had their current iterations truly punching at their potential?

Yeah, but I also feel that the dev talent went elsewhere, gaming got stuck with young / gitHub c&p people. They don't code "to the metal" anymore, and only hardware specs are going to meaningfully raise the bar.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Indeed all of us here like to get a peak behind the curtain. We are also an incredibly tiny speck in the grand scheme of thing so taking any action to cater to our wants would not be wise for anyone or any company.

Sony announcing a more powerful PS5 nearly a full year out introduces the worst thing for them - fear, uncertainty and doubt - the unholy trinity that is FUD. Only instead of people with ill intentions using it against them, they'd be doing it to themselves. No one would know what price this console comes in at or what games will look like on it or they might not even know the full specs. All an early announcement would do is shine a spotlight on the current PS5 and cause the general public to ask themselves:

"I was thinking about a PS5, but I heard something better's coming, so why don't I wait to see what that is?"

Their console sales would crater for those many months and they'd have to answer to investors why their performance has suddenly tanked. All for what? They gain no advantage by announcing early - not a single thing.

As for leakers like Tom Henderson, if we're being real then at MOST his leak has maybe spread to what, a few hundred thousand people? Maybe even a million if we're being generous? Sony doing an official announcement would spread to tens of millions of people, if not hundreds of millions.

They'd be wise to follow precisely what they did with the PS4 Pro and announce it 2 months out so folks could get pre-orders in.

True... I mean they didn't even officially announce the PS5R (revision) until about a month or so before its launch, which was followed by discounts of the OG model. That tells us everything we need to know about their announcement policy and strategy.

They announce the PS5pro no more than 2 months before its launch, and that announcement would be in tandem with a price drop announcement of the current PS5.

I see them announcing a PS5r price drop to $399 (if you can call that a price drop). And no disc drive bundled in. And I see the PS5pro announced for $499. Also, no disc drive bundled in. And Probably a disc drive bundle SKU for $549.

Yeah, but I also feel that the dev talent went elsewhere, gaming got stuck with young / gitHub c&p people. They don't code "to the metal" anymore, and only hardware specs are going to meaningfully raise the bar.

First off, this only applies to 3rd parties. First parties still do. Well, at least Sony and Nintendo first party.

And secondly, can't that be said about third-party devs in most cases? They have seldom ever been the "coding to the metal" bunch, more cause its just harder to be able to do so when building for multiple platforms. And even when they do, it is usually at the tail end of the generation. When every trick, angle, and common practice to get the most out of the consoles is well documented.

 

[playsaves3]

I know... I used 3080 as the bare minimum expectation for the pro console to showcase a difference and as the point of comparison since its interchangeable with the 4070 while the 4080 was the dreamland pipedream.

I think the expectation is there will be fringe games highly optimized for the console like exclusives that perform like a 4080 not a standard

 

[SABRE220]

I think the expectation is there will be fringe games highly optimized for the console like exclusives that perform like a 4080 not a standard

Even with optimization its just not possible, there are performance deltas that cant be overcome with just optimization. You can optimize a switch port to hell and back but it will never come close to even a xbox one. Optimization isnt magic, the hardware gulf will still be there these consoles are basically customized pcs with less overhead but optimization can maybe clawback 15/20% performance over a standard pc port but it will never makeup a gulf on the level between a 4080 and a 3080. Also sony and its first party has honestly lost the talent and ambition to push tech/software innovations like the ps3 days with mlaa and spu push etc.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think the expectation is there will be fringe games highly optimized for the console like exclusives that perform like a 4080 not a standard

Just not possible though. Like a 4070 or better, yes, But 4080... there is like a 54% difference between a 4070/6800xt/7800xt and a 4080. You can't make that kinda ground with "better optimization".

Even with optimization its just not possible, there are performance deltas that cant be overcome with just optimization. You can optimize a switch port to hell and back but it will never come close to even a xbox one. Optimization isnt magic, the hardware gulf will still be there these consoles are basically customized pcs with less overhead but optimization can maybe clawback 15% performance over a standard pc port but it will never makeup a gulf on the level between a 4080 and a 3080. Also sony and its first party has honestly lost the talent and ambition to push tech/software innovations like the ps3 days with mlaa and spu push etc.

I agree with everything you said except the last part of them losing their talent and ambition. If the PS3 has taught them anything and should have taught you anything... is that game development is hard enough as it is for anyone to now come and throw in extremely custom and proprietary hardware into the mix on top of that. Or else you end up with exactly what happened with the PS3.

Its better to have standardized hardware that 10% of devs are able to make the most of and the remaining 90% are at least comfortable with than to make something that only 10% can use and the remaining 90% fail at. With modern game architecture, speed to triangle is the most valuable and innovative feature.

For all the PS3 innovation you praise, the PS3 still had the worst-performing third-party games for the whole generation... That's messed up.

 

[PeteBull]

For all the PS3 innovation you praise, the PS3 still had the worst-performing third-party games for the whole generation... That's messed up.

Horror stories about it being super difficult to work with/hard to code for are all real, we as gamers loved it coz it had great games, especially in 2nd half of its lifecycle but pretty sure all the devs, especially 3rd parties, hated it with a passion

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Indeed all of us here like to get a peak behind the curtain. We are also an incredibly tiny speck in the grand scheme of thing so taking any action to cater to our wants would not be wise for anyone or any company.

Sony announcing a more powerful PS5 nearly a full year out introduces the worst thing for them - fear, uncertainty and doubt - the unholy trinity that is FUD. Only instead of people with ill intentions using it against them, they'd be doing it to themselves. No one would know what price this console comes in at or what games will look like on it or they might not even know the full specs. All an early announcement would do is shine a spotlight on the current PS5 and cause the general public to ask themselves:

"I was thinking about a PS5, but I heard something better's coming, so why don't I wait to see what that is?"

Their console sales would crater for those many months and they'd have to answer to investors why their performance has suddenly tanked. All for what? They gain no advantage by announcing early - not a single thing.

As for leakers like Tom Henderson, if we're being real then at MOST his leak has maybe spread to what, a few hundred thousand people? Maybe even a million if we're being generous? Sony doing an official announcement would spread to tens of millions of people, if not hundreds of millions.

They'd be wise to follow precisely what they did with the PS4 Pro and announce it 2 months out so folks could get pre-orders in.

I don’t know how far Tons leaks reach I do know all the major tech geek sites “reported” on it

I don’t think the average consumer would still hear a peep about it even if Sony teased it at CES because until its starts getting advertised most people wouldn’t have any idea they teased it

But I get the reasoning why they are doing it the way they are I still don’t have to like it

 

[SABRE220]

Just not possible though. Like a 4070 or better, yes, But 4080... there is like a 54% difference between a 4070/6800xt/7800xt and a 4080. You can't make that kinda ground with "better optimization".


I agree with everything you said except the last part of them losing their talent and ambition. If the PS3 has taught them anything and should have taught you anything... is that game development is hard enough as it is for anyone to now come and throw in extremely custom and proprietary hardware into the mix on top of that. Or else you end up with exactly what happened with the PS3.

Its better to have standardized hardware that 10% of devs are able to make the most of and the remaining 90% are at least comfortable with than to make something that only 10% can use and the remaining 90% fail at. With modern game architecture, speed to triangle is the most valuable and innovative feature.

For all the PS3 innovation you praise, the PS3 still had the worst-performing third-party games for the whole generation... That's messed up.

My statement about sonys devs having their peak in terms of ambition and innovation was not directed towards just the hardware. These devs went over and beyond to make use of hardware that had serious bottlenecks and limitations and became the industry standard in console visuals introducing techniques such as mlaa etc. The studios this gen have shown nowhere near the same ambition and willingness to push the bar and are happy to coast on their current tech adding small upgrades to their lastgen pipelines.

In terms of hardware while I am not advocating for exotic and difficult architectures you have to admit the ps3 era console were much more ambitious in terms of relative specs compared to the current consoles.

 

[rofif]

Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but does anyone else feel(though I'm excited for a Pro for certain games like BG3 that could use that extra power) that both XSX and PS5 haven't had their current iterations truly punching at their potential?

XSX is due to the parity thing with XSS, which just wasn't the best idea.

I mean-- but the difference between what was initially on PS2/PS3/PS4 and in later years was very apparent.

I don't know that I've seen that level of push this time and we're heading into Year 4.

I'm excited for the Pro and I hope that it gives the bonuses we hope for.

Of course. 60fps focus and cross gen games made sure this gen is underutilised.
And devs just using pc version with low settings on console is a slap in the face of optimisation. They are using console as low end pc

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

My statement about sonys devs having their peak in terms of ambition and innovation was not directed towards just the hardware. These devs went over and beyond to make use of hardware that had serious bottlenecks and limitations and became the industry standard in console visuals introducing techniques such as mlaa etc. The studios this gen have shown nowhere near the same ambition and willingness to push the bar and are happy to coast on their current tech adding small upgrades to their lastgen pipelines.

I hear you, just don't think that is a fair assessment of what is happening now. Nor is it an accurate one.

In terms of hardware while I am not advocating for exotic and difficult architectures you have to admit the ps3 era console were much more ambitious in terms of relative specs compared to the current consoles.

I couldn't disagree more. There is no doubt that the PS3 has a great CPU... but come on... that thing was a disaster to work with and even build. You call that ambition? I call that stupidity. Its like what's the point of building a 1000hp car that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds but has no brakes?

 

[SABRE220]

I hear you, just don't think that is a fair assessment of what is happening now. Nor is it an accurate one.

I couldn't disagree more. There is no doubt that the PS3 has a great CPU... but come on... that thing was a disaster to work with and even build. You call that ambition? I call that stupidity. Its like what's the point of building a 1000hp car that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds but has no brakes?

Ok lets agree to disagree on the first one.

Again youre focusing on the difficult architecture but ignoring the hardware power that the xbox360 and the ps3 put out compared the best pc tech available at the time. The 360 was basically better than ati's best gpus close to launch and had more advanced features and the cpu was also very impressive.

The ps3 was basically a 7800gt while the best nvidia card available at time of development was a 7800gtx and the cpu surpassed damn near all pc cpus at the time. The current consoles could only match the midrange gpus which are far apart from the top gpus and the cpus are basically gutted mobile zen 2s.

The console makers were willing to take a loss on the hardware to deliver truly cutting-edge and high-end hardware.

 

[Bernardougf]

Its been my biggest complaint with Sony as of late, its like they are guarding nuclear launch codes

But then again if you talk too much (Phil Spencer) then people hate you for that

Yeah... I think nobody really has a problem with how much he talks ...it is the amount of BULLSHIT that is the problem my friend

 

[ergem]

Now as we can see, apple could make their new iphone's chip on 3nm process node and launch it in september2023, but looks like sony cant use that node, hell it opted for only 6nm node for their ps5 "slim"

The only way I think Sony would opt for 3nm is if a paradigm shift have occured in Sony’s pro strategy.

Knowing now that the pro could only do a fraction of the sale of the OG as in the case of ps4 and ps4pro, what is the point of making a pro that is cheap?

The reason the OG ps5 is cheap is because its main business strategy is to sell at par or at a little loss in order to penetrate the market and sell 100 million. The OG ps5 will carry the brand penetration for as long as it can which is usually 10 years. The pro version does not necessarily carry that same burden.

The other argument against a more expensive and beefier pro is the potential that the ps6 will have a less noticeable generational jump. The pro will bridge the gap.

I’d say knowing now that more than 80% of the market buys the cheaper OG console, I wonder if it matters when the vast majority of playstation gamers would still come from the inferior OG when they jump into the mass-market OG next-gen.

So I’d say 3nm is still in the cards, unless Apple is paying for exclusivity.

 

[jasondefaoite]

I am one of those who like following projects that interest me months even years in advance

I love when a game announces way early and give random blog updates which I hope a game like Blade does

Plus with leaker like Tom Henderson hardware like the Pro is the worst kept secret anyhow and I have seen people here on this very forum claim they are waiting for the Pro anyhow

Just opinions

Again, worst kept secret in the circles of people paying attention to this stuff. To your average consumer, they aren't aware of this.

Given you didn't answer the second part of the question, I guess there is no benefit to Sony announcing the pro 10 months in advance of it shipping. Which is the reason nothing is officially known.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Again, worst kept secret in the circles of people paying attention to this stuff. To your average consumer, they aren't aware of this.

Given you didn't answer the second part of the question, I guess there is no benefit to Sony announcing the pro 10 months in advance of it shipping. Which is the reason nothing is officially known.

And the average consumer doesn't know shit about CES and until there are ads on TV or Youtube nothing changes for the average consumer

The benefit of announcing early are for people on a tighter budget that may already own a PS5 but would like to set aside a little monthly in an upgrade fund?

I dont know

 

[zeroluck]

oops. delete please

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Ok lets agree to disagree on the first one.

Again youre focusing on the difficult architecture but ignoring the hardware power that the xbox360 and the ps3 put out compared the best pc tech available at the time. The 360 was basically better than ati's best gpus close to launch and had more advanced features and the cpu was also very impressive.

The ps3 was basically a 7800gt while the best nvidia card available at time of development was a 7800gtx and the cpu surpassed damn near all pc cpus at the time. The current consoles could only match the midrange gpus which are far apart from the top gpus and the cpus are basically gutted mobile zen 2s.

The console makers were willing to take a loss on the hardware to deliver truly cutting-edge and high-end hardware.

Ok, if taking the complexity to design for it out of the equation, then yeah, you have a point. However, while current-gen consoles tend to only equate to mid-range hardware at the time of their launch, they are still taking a loss on said hardware.

I agree that the PS360 gen pushed hardware positively, just don't agree that the reason we have what we have now is as a result of a lack of ambition and innovation on their part. Rather, I think it's them adapting to the market.

Look at it this way, PS3, thanks to its "innovation" ended up costing $600 in 2006. That's the equivalent of them selling an $800 console in 2020 with a BOM of $1000. That is just ridiculous. We do this thing where we romanticize that gen, but that shit wasn't just innovative by chance, it was expensive as fuck.

If Sony in 2020 made a console with a BOM of $1000, I doubt you would be saying it lacked ambition. I doubt however that it would fare any better than the PS3. If however you take into account that the PS2 in 2000, costing $300, would have cost $450 in 2020, then you start to appreciate their innovation in being able to sell a PS5 for $399 in 2020.

The market is just not as accepting of spending the kinda money required to afford that "innovation" you want. And the PS3 proved that.

The only way I think Sony would opt for 3nm is if a paradigm shift have occured in Sony’s pro strategy.

Knowing now that the pro could only do a fraction of the sale of the OG as in the case of ps4 and ps4pro, what is the point of making a pro that is cheap?

The reason the OG ps5 is cheap is because its main business strategy is to sell at par or at a little loss in order to penetrate the market and sell 100 million. The OG ps5 will carry the brand penetration for as long as it can which is usually 10 years. The pro version does not necessarily carry that same burden.

The other argument against a more expensive and beefier pro is the potential that the ps6 will have a less noticeable generational jump. The pro will bridge the gap.

I’d say knowing now that more than 80% of the market buys the cheaper OG console, I wonder if it matters when the vast majority of playstation gamers would still come from the inferior OG when they jump into the mass-market OG next-gen.

So I’d say 3nm is still in the cards, unless Apple is paying for exclusivity.

Its not on the cards. And the biggest argument you can have against making a $1000 balls out PS5pro, is that you do not want a repeat of the XSS. Where the base PS6 mainstream console ends up being barely more powerful than the PS5pro.

People need to stop these head-in-the-cloud expectations. Stop looking at it as if sony is trying to make the best mid gen PS5 regardless of the cost and start looking at it as Sony is making the best mid-gen PS5 they can sell for $500 in 2024 that has a BOM of $550-$600. That is where your starting point should be, because that is exactly how Sony went about designing the console. They start with a target price, then build the machine up to match that price.