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EuroGamer: More details on the BALANCE of XB1

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I agree completely with you! The characters from the order are incredible! For me are the only characters ever see in a videogame that seems have "real clothes" because their clothes seems so consistent, and heavy, and the details si amazing! Ryse have this "gaming" look to his characters that don't do anything to this 150k polygons, at least for me....

The point about clothing weight finally made me realize what impressed me so much about the animation in that trailer. The clothes seem heavy. I guess I only realized it on a subconscious level. Couldn't articulate it before now.
 

luca_29_bg

Member
The point about clothing weight finally made me realize what impressed me so much about the animation in that trailer. The clothes seem heavy. I guess I only realized it on a subconscious level. Couldn't articulate it before now.

YES!!! it's something that i have perceived immediately ! And it's, at least for me, incredible, because it's the first time that characters in video game seems completely real, their clothes seems to fit their bodies realistically! It's amazing!
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I think the biggest take away from this is the hardware scaler and dynamic resolution scaling. I expect later games to utilize it very well.

Ever since the display plane info came out I was expecting MS to encourage devs to use 1080p HUDs to counter one of the most obvious issues with sub-native res. They knew 1080p wasn't always going to happen and planned ahead to at least make it less distracting. XBO shouldn't wind up with anything like the annoyingly stretched HUDs in the PS3 versions of the Crysis games.
 
Ever since the display plane info came out I was expecting MS to encourage devs to use 1080p HUDs to counter one of the most obvious issues with sub-native res. They knew 1080p wasn't always going to happen and planned ahead to at least make it less distracting. XBO shouldn't wind up with anything like the annoyingly stretched HUDs in the PS3 versions of the Crysis games.

Agreed
 

flying dutchman

Neo Member
Just like last gen the level of developer will determine which console has the best looking games on it. After been a 100% MS guy through xbox and then 360 I will be going ps4 this time, due to MS and its Kinect rubbish.
But I like to think I am pretty unbiased about this stuff. To me Ryse looks every bit as impressive as KZ and Infamous. But hello, its Crytek making it. They are one of the best developers alive. Just like when ND put out Uncharted and TLOU on PS3..again, hello its ND.
So out of the hundreds of developers out their how many are top elite level? Maybe 10? They will make both consoles sing, and the others will do their best. And even when I was an xbox man, you have to admit that Sony has the best stable of in house developers that will make amazing graphics. That is MSs biggest heal in their foot. They should have bought up Crytek, epic, id etc.
 
It's a gimped Bonaire, that's why I like many other people used 7770 for comparison. Bonaire has 1000 Mhz core clock speed, Xbox One GPU is clocked at 854~ Mhz. Bonaire has 14 CUs active, Xbox One has 12 CUs active. Bonaire is paired with GDDR5 memory, Xbox One is paired with DDR3 with some ESRAM.

Bonaire is at 1.79 Teraflops
Xbox One GPU is at 1.31 Teraflops.

With specs at hand it's essentially slightly faster than a 7770 and no where close to a 7790.

Well, I'm done worrying about it. I'm just glad I got to read a decent write-up on the hardware from the people that worked on it and know more about the technical details.
7790 has 96GB/s of memory bandwidth, Xbox One has access to much more memory bandwidth, for the record.
 
Anyone else get the feeling that if MS falls way behind on the Xbox One, it does not sell near like they thought it would, the developers turn on them, etc MS will release a new system within 4-5 years time?

I have a funny feeling since MS is owned 100% by suits and controlled by very impatient shareholders they will not stand by and watch the Xbox One get hammered in sales and in the media for the next 7 years.

I think from here on we are back on the 5 year gaming cycle personally.

Well, I'm done worrying about it. I'm just glad I got to read a decent write-up on the hardware from the people that worked on it and know more about the technical details.
7790 has 96GB/s of memory bandwidth, Xbox One has access to much more memory bandwidth, for the record.

Umm .. no. 32MB of the X1 has access to a little more bandwidth then that. You cannot lump the entire system architecture together just because 32MB of EMBEDDED memory is fast .... er. You still have that 8GB of DDR3 trudging along as slow as a 3 legged turtle. Nothing can save that gigantic mistake. This generation, since we have RAM out of the way thankfully and the devs have more then enough to do what they need to do, it is all about bandwidth. I have owned a 6770 for 4-5 years now, that thing has 78GB/s of memory bandwidth pulled from 2GB of GDDR5. And I am needing to upgrade the thing to get the best quality of current gen games even at my monitors 1600x900 resolutions. You think I am going to go out and buy ( if I could ) a chip with embedded RAM and call it a day? Hell no. I'm going after the higher ROP's, higher memory bandwidth, higher CU's, higher stream processors, higher this .. higher that. My next GPU purchase will very likely be the 7870. It is just the right price range to do what I need my PC to do.
 

IN&OUT

Banned
Anyone else get the feeling that if MS falls way behind on the Xbox One, it does not sell near like they thought it would, the developers turn on them, etc MS will release a new system within 4-5 years time?

I have a funny feeling since MS is owned 100% by suits and controlled by very impatient shareholders they will not stand by and watch the Xbox One get hammered in sales and in the media for the next 7 years.

I think from here on we are back on the 5 year gaming cycle personally.

if X1 underperform, it would be MS last console.

EDIT: seems like the company is little divided on Xbox divison, any missteps would end it.
 
I have no clue what Balance is supposed to mean in this context.

The CPU is weak, so the GPU is closer to the weak CPU instead of being a powerful GPU?

Edit: Even if the XBO is MS' last console, it will be on the market for upwards of 10 years or more.

I don't think it will do bad at all. A lot of my gamer friends are talking about it moreso than the PS4
 
Dude, Ryse stands right now as, imo, the most amazing looking game on either system. I don't need to focus on all these multi-platforms that I haven't seen yet. Dude, I've seen Fifa on both PS4 and Xbox One. Do you see a huge difference there, either? That's one game we can talk about that's multi, right? Oh, but there's a catch, I know. It's FIFA :p

Whatever the case, I'm not living and dying on the numbers. We already know sony's kicking MS ass on the raw numbers. Nobody denies. Nobody is even denying that it will have an impact. Sony's console is stronger, period. But just how much will that show up in the real world is the question. That's all I'm saying. Personally, I would love if the PS4's advantage shows up every bit as much as the raw numbers indicates, because I'm going to own the system. However, realistically, I don't think it's going to happen. Call me one of those stubborn people that have to see it before I believe it. Is that so wrong?

From what we've seen maybe, but everything we've seen of the game has been rendered at 1080p and we know for a fact the game renders at 1650x900. It even says right there in every screenshot "Not representative of final quality". One would assume this means quality would get better, but in this case, specially with regard to resolution, it probably won't be the case.
 

artist

Banned
Edit: Even if the XBO is MS' last console, it will be on the market for upwards of 10 years or more.
With the relatively modest specs for both consoles, I expect this cycle will be shorter.

I don't think it will do bad at all. A lot of my gamer friends are talking about it moreso than the PS4
Dat anecdotal evidence.

Speaking of anecdotal evidences, my friends who owned a 360 dont even know that MS did a 180 on the DRM. They think that the draconian policies are still in place are set to buy PS4s. :D
 
The DF interview was really interesting. It's always good to have technical people go into details, rather than relying on guessing and leaks. Saying that, this is obviously a PR push, and the infamous Major Nelson 360 vs PS3 'stats' will never be forgotten. Microsoft Maths™ at its finest. Some of the memory bandwidth claims seem to in this territory, especially based on actual dev comments that the Xbone's memory situation is a pain and a big bottleneck.

The amusing thing for me was in trying to downplay the PS4's power advantage. MS saying that CUs don't scale linearly is moot. It doesn't matter if an on-paper advantage is 50%, but in real world it's only 25%. It's still 25%! That's not to be sniffed at, seeing as they are making a big deal about a tiny 6% clock increase.

And claiming a console is 'balanced' when it's more complex and harder to develop for than it's rival is ridiculous. The term' balanced' here is just a marketing term, as they can't say it's powerful, or fast, or the easiest to develop for. So they came up with this meaningless term. Like seeing food products labelled as 'natural' which doesn't have any legal meaning.

This. All of this.


With the relatively modest specs for both consoles, I expect this cycle will be shorter.

That's not going to happen.
 
The game has only been shown on PCs so far and considering how closely those two demos were shown to one another I think it's safe to say that this footage is PC as well. KojiPro would have had to polish two completely separate demos if they were on difference consoles and these looks exactly the same.

Oh come on now, what is the point of them going to the effort to showcase the X1 and PS4 builds on the same PC?
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Oh come on now, what is the point of them going to the effort to showcase the X1 and PS4 builds on the same PC?

Practicality. They've only ever shown the game on PC, even the "current gen" version, and never said that the game was running on console hardware in either demo. A playable demo takes several people nearly a month to get up and running to be ready to show. Do you really think they would dedicate double the man power to get two separate builds up and running instead of just being able to swap out controller prompts?
 
Practicality. They've only ever shown the game on PC, even the "current gen" version, and never said that the game was running on console hardware in either demo. A playable demo takes several people nearly a month to get up and running to be ready to show. Do you really think they would dedicate double the man power to get two separate builds up and running instead of just being able to swap out controller prompts?

I think it's safe to assume the game is up and running on devkits for both consoles by now so the whole PC thing seems redundant and pointless. Did they also program different button prompts on the same version just for this demo as well?

I don't see why it would be difficult to cater for two demos considering they making so many versions of the game in the first place.
 

Teletraan1

Banned
That's not going to happen.

The reason this console cycle was so long was the inability to get the consoles BOM down and were never able to sell them at a mass market price. The fact that the PS360 are still so expensive and they had to rely on value added bundles speaks to this. These new consoles were designed to be able to drop prices faster. Neither of these companies if they are even going to be in the console space next time around want a repeat of the last 2 years that we have seen from NPD. Just imo but it makes sense to me.
 

thuway

Member
If either company starts profiting vehemently from the consoles, than expect a long console generation. However, both will avoid the legnth of this generation. This gen was a complete and total clusterfuck.
 

Seance

Banned
So balance
Kreygasm.png
 

CoG

Member
Yes, multiplayer's not looking too hot as of now, we are aware of that. Single player on the other hand..

Ryse - An inside look at combat

Really not seeing it. Nice lighting in some places but the character models are not so hot. A bunch of bald enemies with bland armor. It's the whole package that's off. The animations really throw everything off. They are all around bad.

Ryse is going to be one of those launch games that are quickly forgotten because it was rushed. It's the Xbox One's Untold Legends or Kameo. I feel the same way about Knack, FWIW.
 
Really not seeing it. Nice lighting in some places but the character models are not so hot. A bunch of bald enemies with bland armor. It's the whole package that's off. The animations really throw everything off. They are all around bad.

Ryse is going to be one of those launch games that are quickly forgotten because it was rushed. It's the Xbox One's Untold Legends or Kameo. I feel the same way about Knack, FWIW.

I think it looks really impressive but I don't think we've seen anything that is to come, that also goes for a number of PS4 games too though. The original E3 demo is still the best showcase for the game (button prompts aside).

However, personally speaking no game that I've seen from either console compares to Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 are nothing short of tech wizards. Great things are coming.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
Quoting downsizes them until clicked for those of us who don't want to see source size images. It only takes a second to do, just edit your post, highlight the image URL and its existing code and click the quote button.

So does not quoting them. Click an unquoted image and it will also scale to full size.
 

Zen

Banned
No, the Xbone GPU has 12 (active) CUs with 2 disabled.

It's not more favorable unless you are going to cling onto the hope that they will be unlocked with the stereo™ driver.


That what I said. The Xbox one has 14 CUs with 2 disabled for redundancy, thus using a Bonair in comparison to the PS4 makes the One look more favorable as than it will perform in reality.
 

nib95

Banned
I think it looks really impressive but I don't think we've seen anything that is to come, that also goes for a number of PS4 games too though. The original E3 demo is still the best showcase for the game (button prompts aside).

However, personally speaking no game that I've seen from either console compares to Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 are nothing short of tech wizards. Great things are coming.

Forza 5 is considerably less technically proficient than Ryse, and compared to many next gen titles in fact including KZ, DriveClub, BF4 etc. In terms of lighting (GI and fully dynamic vs baked), shadows, ssao, textures, geometrical complexity, volumetric clouds, smoke etc, particles and post processing, some of the shaders and so on, it falls under par comparatively. Though the overall visuals are still really nice either way (nice art, good track design, high poly cars etc). But I certainly wouldn't call Turn 10 tech wizards based on F5.
 

Zen

Banned

Absolutely not. Best case scenario is that Ryse 'wastes' a lot of polygons on inefficiently individually modelling bits of armor completely separately from the 'body'. I mean does it really look that much better than these?


There was what seemed to be an LOD issue in the shot you quoted. The rest of the scene looks exactly like the models in the carriage as you can see in this post.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83214293&postcount=986

You stream them in, they are invisible from the distance so it doesnt matter. You dont have all geometry, even on smaller lod to be visible, You stream it on demand, so House can be totally empty from 1km away, but when You get close You can stream everything in.

You can't just 'stream it in' it's not as if simply having something not being rendered means you can spend 100% of the hardware in any given scene only on that scene. The heavier your streaming load in general (like with a massive and detailed open world game) the bigger an impact it will have of the game as a whole.

If you're dealing with a smaller area, and your overhead for streaming is mostly just fancy looking things in the background that don't have to have collision and what not, you're free to spend more of your budget on what's in the here and now. In general working in a more linear game design lets you better optimize what it is that the player is actually interacting with.

Especially in a game like Ryse where you aren't moving around at the speed of Sonic the Hedgehog, of flying in a jet and jumping out with your parachute.
 
Don't forget about:

1. 768 Shader Cores vs. 1152 Shader Cores
2. 16 ROPs (Render Output Pipelines) vs. 32 ROPs
3. 12.8 Gigapixels/sec vs. 25.6 Gigapixels/sec

The first one is included on the CU count. and 2 and 3 are cause and consequence (Though with the upclock xbone's gigapixel count would be a bit higher).

I do wonder if the ROP difference will matter as performance go... At 1080p xbone has more fillrate power per pixel than 360, and assuming nice esram usage the ROPs will have all the bandwidth they need to achieve close to peak performance... With features like PRT can greatly reduce the number of pixels drawn on intermediate buffers (for instance shadow maps. And I say shadow maps because that was one of the demos Ms showed when they talked about tiled resources)...

Perhaps Sony is focusing on 1080p 3D gaming, or 4k, but for pure and simple 1080p it does look like it's much more than needed (not that this is a bad thing).

Absolutely not. Best case scenario is that Ryse 'wastes' a lot of polygons on inefficiently individually modelling bits of armor completely separately from the 'body'. I mean does it really look that much better than these?

In static shots perhaps not, but in movement seeing individual parts of the armor and cloth moving properly with the characters movements is a nice visual effect on Ryse... I wouldn't say that they are wasting polys...
 
Can you show me some examples of this? Because this particular quote suggests the complete opposite. Leadbetter has been doing everything he can to downplay the differences between the two consoles, and tow the official Microsoft line.




The funniest one however is how a 10% CPU upclock is "significant" whilst 40-50% more GPU performance is merely "very evenly matched".

Tbh, he's sort of single handedly flushed DF's reputation down the toilet somewhat.

It's not 50% more performance, that was the whole point of the article XD

And even on that quote he mentioned that the performance (as in framerate) was matched on a lower resolution.

I really don't see what's so outrageous with those claims XD
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
However, personally speaking no game that I've seen from either console compares to Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 are nothing short of tech wizards. Great things are coming.


I am very much looking forward to F5 but on a technical level its not that impressive. With non-dynamic baked lighting, it is a last gen game running at 1080p and a high frame rate......

Like me, you fell for. "Good Art"
 

artist

Banned
It's not 50% more performance, that was the whole point of the article XD

And even on that quote he mentioned that the performance (as in framerate) was matched on a lower resolution.

I really don't see what's so outrageous with those claims XD
Titan - 3840x2160 @ 30fps
Intel Iris Pro - 1024x768 @ 30fps

Performance is matched, what's so outrageous about this claim.
 

nib95

Banned
It's not 50% more performance, that was the whole point of the article XD

And even on that quote he mentioned that the performance (as in framerate) was matched on a lower resolution.

I really don't see what's so outrageous with those claims XD

That entire comparison was rubbish, and very skewed in order to raise the Xbox Ones comparative GPU to a higher ceiling of diminishing returns, in order to more closely match the higher end PS4 GPU to a greater degree than it ordinarily would. The GPU they used is closer to the PS4's than that of the Xbox Ones, and has far more raw performance than the XOs as well as several other key performance additions too. And at the time the article was written, yes it was a 50% performance difference, Leadbetter trying to obfuscate that with a disingenuous and illogical comparison does not change that.
 
With the relatively modest specs for both consoles, I expect this cycle will be shorter.


Dat anecdotal evidence.

Speaking of anecdotal evidences, my friends who owned a 360 dont even know that MS did a 180 on the DRM. They think that the draconian policies are still in place are set to buy PS4s. :D
Smiley face? What? Are you proud of your friends' ignorance? Why don't you just like... inform them...?
 

artist

Banned
Smiley face? What? Are you proud of your friends' ignorance? Why don't you just like... inform them...?
I'm not proud just find it hilarious the sort of messaging from MS has been since May. And I dont think my friend circle (despite being anecdotal) is not the only ones in the dark. Informing them wont change much since it was a large group switch and I doubt they'll all somehow cancel their PS4 pre-orders and switch back to the Xbone ..

We're getting sidetracked though.

It's absolutely ridiculous. New levels of fanboyism.
Having such an agenda to allow friends to remain ignorant on something they very well might be interested in, seeing how they owned 360s.
I've never convinced anyone IRL to buy either of the consoles last gen, why should I start now? You can keep calling me names though ..
 
Titan - 3840x2160 @ 30fps
Intel Iris Pro - 1024x768 @ 30fps

Performance is matched, what's so outrageous about this claim.

Yeah, because he completely ignores the resolution differences and claims that they are both dealing with the exact same load.

That entire comparison was rubbish, and very skewed in order to raise the Xbox Ones comparative GPU to a higher ceiling of diminishing returns, in order to more closely match the higher end PS4 GPU to a greater degree than it ordinarily would. The GPU they used is closer to the PS4's than that of the Xbox Ones, and has far more raw performance than the XOs as well as several other key performance additions too. And at the time the article was written, yes it was a 50% performance difference, Leadbetter trying to obfuscate that with a disingenuous and illogical comparison does not change that.

I haven't checked his facts, but he says that while both target speced gpus have higher flops count that their console counterparts that he tried the best to keep the same proportion that is seen on xbone vs Ps4.

And again, specs != performance. That's the whole point of the article. To show that a X% number of CUs will yield a lower than X% performance advantage.

And what about the articles prior to that, where he said that Ms focus on the cloud was to deviate attention to the fact their specs were lower? Did he had a pro-Ms agenda back then? For me, seeing the articles in series, it's clear how he first though Ps4 would wipe the floor with xbone, but once he tested he started changing his mind, and started hearing from developers that their performance is actually close only reinforced that...
 
It's absolutely ridiculous. New levels of fanboyism.
Having such an agenda to allow friends to remain ignorant on something they very well might be interested in, seeing how they owned 360s.

Eh, if i was in the same position i wouldn't go out of my way to tell them... HEY!!!... MS just said they were kidding with all the nasty stuff!!!, it's ok to buy one now!!!.

Unless they'd ask me about it, or the convo came up, i wouldn't. And it's not just me... i'm sorry but that's how it goes... bad gossip travels faster than good gossip.
 
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